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[p3tran]

Serious question. Could the kinect scan my face and insert it into a game, rather than use the editors? I would hope with all these sensors that they would use it for productive things.

welcome to 2006 and xbox live vision camera.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/ubisof...ty-with-tom-clancys-rainbow-six-vegas-6159794


also, before also this starts popping up as a "good thing" for kinect, also we had voice commands on tom clancy games since many years ago (5?), and not through kinect but through the standard HEADSET.

so, careful what you choose to bring up as "positives"

 

[Alx]

Not needing to carry around a headset at all moments is a positive. I'm not wearing one right now. I suppose you don't either.
Just like menu browsing has always been possible with a remote or a controller, only now you can also do it without holding anything. That's still one of the first features of a kinect : being always available.

 

[zenosparadox]

I find it interesting that people say the camera should not bother you unless you are a member of Al Qaeda.

FBI had plants in Occupy Wall Street. Government conspiracy got Martin Luther King Jr. assassinated. The CIA aided in the arrest of Nelson Mandela all those years ago.

These are evil people we are talking about, and simply being against the grain could get you in a tight spot.

 

[p3tran]

Not needing to carry around a headset at all moments is a positive. I'm not wearing one right now. I suppose you don't either.
Just like menu browsing has always been possible with a remote or a controller, only now you can also do it without holding anything. That's still one of the first features of a kinect : being always available.

I aint wearing one right now, but I aint getting a always-on 3d camera with night vision and voice recognition and an unknown OS installed in my living room either, just to avoid wearing a headset when i want to use one.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

I find it interesting that people say the camera should not bother you unless you are a member of Al Qaeda.

FBI had plants in Occupy Wall Street. Government conspiracy got Martin Luther King Jr. assassinated. The CIA aided in the arrest of Nelson Mandela all those years ago.

These are evil people we are talking about, and simply being against the grain could get you in a tight spot.

I want you to tell me why most people should be worried? Give me one example average Joe should care. Get me in a tight spot? Explain that one.

 

[Jac_Solar]

The "always on" status of the microphone is irrelevant one way or another. It is on only to detect a few keywords, it doesn't mean it is recording anything. And If it was officially off (or even disabled) but someone had external access to your console, there is nothing preventing them to turn it on without your knowledge.
As for the purpose of spying a living room, I still think it is negligible for an intelligence agency : most people don't do anything interesting for them there, and those who would have something to hide would obviously know not do it in front of a camera. So in the end watching that information is just useless.

Is that really what you think? It's another way to gather information; it might seem useless, but on a worldwide basis, in millions of homes, I'm sure it will catch tons of useful information for intelligence agencies. In any case, it's another step toward trampling our rights - it's not directly perceived as a surveillance kit, but close enough that countries are fighting against it, and using laws to do so. Some countries are more open towards it, but it's most likely bending some laws to do so; it's establishing new precedents, which means it'll be even easier for the next, more blatant unit to enter our homes.

 

[Mung]

I want you to tell me why most people should be worried? Give me one example average Joe should care. Get me in a tight spot? Explain that one.

So many people willing to accept being bent over.

 

[S¡mon]

The problem is that if Microsoft is somehow forced to do this, they will never inform the public. And if the public finds out they will deny it, like with the whole Skype debacle.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

So many people willing to accept being bent over.

Bent over what? Far too many people wear tinfoil hats and worry about everything.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

I want you to tell me why most people should be worried? Give me one example average Joe should care. Get me in a tight spot? Explain that one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

 

[S¡mon]

I want you to tell me why most people should be worried? Give me one example average Joe should care. Get me in a tight spot? Explain that one.

Give me one good reason why people shouldn't be worried. I bet you can't find a single good reason, except for something like: "What are you hiding? If you aren't hiding anything, you have got nothing to worry about."

 

[Marcel]

I want you to tell me why most people should be worried? Give me one example average Joe should care. Get me in a tight spot? Explain that one.

"I have nothing to hide! Why should I care about my right to privacy? Please take it from me!"

You're clueless.

 

[Mung]

Bent over what? Far too many people wear tinfoil hats and worry about everything.

Tinfoil lulz...

Keep up with what's going on.. Soon you will have no privacy at all

 

[S¡mon]

"I have nothing to hide! Why should I care about my right to privacy? Please take it from me!" You're clueless.

But... but... it's only your privacy?

 

[YouEnjoyMySelf]

So many people willing to accept being bent over.

Yep, they just want penetration at this point

 

[FINALBOSS]

The problem is that MS might not have a say in it.

The US courts seem to allow this kind of intelligence gathering and at the same time forbids parties to talk about it.

So they can't even acknowledge that they are forced to do it. And they can't inform the public who in turn aren't in a position to demand changes through government.

The thing is, Microsoft DOES have a say in it.

LET US UNPLUG THE THING.

 

[FeiRR]

Modern hardware is not something an average programmer can play with. This is not like android where it is completely open. MS probably locked this box down heavily.

I didn't say it'll take them a week, more likely a year or two.

People who say that you can just duct tape Kinect or drop a towel on it should read the Killer Instinct thread. If the game is to recognize people holding the controller, the system won't allow you to block Kinect. It will just log you off. Really scary stuff, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BWJinxing]

The thing is, Microsoft DOES have a say in it.

LET US UNPLUG THE THING.

This.

Most are not saying dump Kienct entirely (like DRM), just give the user more flexibility then a 'trust us!'. How integrated can the Kinect be when the controller is still a valid input and can do everything Kienct can navigate that warrants a must be plugged in 24/7?

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Give me one good reason why people shouldn't be worried. I bet you can't find a single good reason, except for something like: "What are you hiding? If you aren't hiding anything, you have got nothing to worry about."

Easy. I have had a Playstation Eye camera for years. No issues whatsoever. I have also used web cams, again no issues. I have my cellphone on all the time and many apps could be running in the background, along with some GPS apps (that I trust and turn off after to consume battery life).

Mind telling me when I should be worried? If you buy an Xbox One and use the system as it's intended to be used why would anyone have issues with the Kinect camera be running in the background? It is also only waiting for key words, which can also be turned off.

Leave it to the internet to have a collection of fear mongers making it seem like MS has nothing better to do than to record us farting in our living rooms.

I didn't say it'll take them a week, more likely a year or two.

People who say that you can just duct tape Kinect or drop a towel on it should read the Killer Instinct thread. If the game is to recognize people holding the controller, the system won't allow you to block Kinect. It will just log you off. Really scary stuff, as far as I'm concerned.

Very scary. Ballmer will get a Tweet telling you you're holding the controller wrong. If people are that worried they can unplug the system when it's not in use. You will also have privacy controls for the Kinect device.

 

[Sean*O]

They need to aggressively challenge their own policies.

 

[Black-Box]

welcome to 2006 and xbox live vision camera.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/ubisof...ty-with-tom-clancys-rainbow-six-vegas-6159794


also, before also this starts popping up as a "good thing" for kinect, also we had voice commands on tom clancy games since many years ago (5?), and not through kinect but through the standard HEADSET.

so, careful what you choose to bring up as "positives"

It is a positive because using the headset the devs have to do all the work. Kinect has voice software built in. Saves money and time and opens voice commands up to more people. So positive!

 

[FINALBOSS]

http://news.cnet.com/FBI-taps-cell-phone-mic-as-eavesdropping-tool/2100-1029_3-6140191.html


As a general rule, consider that anything that is turned off by software or by a one-state button (ie doesn't physically disconnect wires) is never really off/disabled. The only way to be sure a device is off is to remove all power sources connected to it (and even then, some capacitors can hold a charge for some time, so you'd better wait a few hours before relaxing). Otherwise you're just trusting what the constructor is telling you in the manual (and assuming it hasn't been hacked).

I admire you for picking up the torch for the banned members who defended this nonsense.


But what you just quoted LITERALLY makes the case for us so upset. Kinect can be software turned off.. But is it really off? What you just posted implies it won't and never will be.

 

[Black-Box]

I didn't say it'll take them a week, more likely a year or two.

People who say that you can just duct tape Kinect or drop a towel on it should read the Killer Instinct thread. If the game is to recognize people holding the controller, the system won't allow you to block Kinect. It will just log you off. Really scary stuff, as far as I'm concerned.

That feature is good for large groups of people. You should be able to turn that feature off. Nothing really special because even cars are starting to do the same thing somewhat.

 

[Black-Box]

I admire you for picking up the torch for the banned members who defended this nonsense.


But what you just quoted LITERALLY makes the case for us so upset. Kinect can be software turned off.. But is it really off? What you just posted implies it won't and never will be.

Technically no electronic device is really off unless you unplug it. Really you should just unplug the Xbox and any electronic when you are not using it or buy a power bar that is able to cut off the power without pulling plugs out.

Maybe that would get more popular in the coming years. I think you do save a good bit of money.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

What about themselves?

Nothing stopping Microsoft from spying on you!

Plus what about hackers? Those Lulzsek guys would have a field day if they could hack into Kinect.

 

[Alx]

Is that really what you think? It's another way to gather information; it might seem useless, but on a worldwide basis, in millions of homes, I'm sure it will catch tons of useful information for intelligence agencies.

Yes, it is what I think.
From what I know of the current technology, I'm aware that a lot of spying is technically possible. Yes, it is possible that someone is taking control of my phone right now. Maybe someone is watching me through the camera of my laptop while I type this message. Maybe someone is data mining my healthcare information, bank accounts, public transport cards, fidelity cards, phone bills and tax declarations to decide if I'm a person of interest. Maybe someone is pointing a laser at my window from 500m away to listen to everything I say. Maybe a satellite is tracking me from low orbit through their high precision camera.
If I were thinking all of that was impossible, I would be wrong. If I were thinking it was happening, I would be crazy. That's the whole thing about paranoia, if you start believing any possible danger is a reality, you have no reason to stop.

I think the sane way to react to those fears is :
- to make sure that there are laws and institutions in place to control privacy. It's no guarantee when some agencies consider they're above the law, but at least you know there are people taking care of the problem.
- to know what kind of information are really sensitive and more likely to be tracked. That's why I'm not worried about kinect at all, while I'm concerned about my email box, my PC, the companies hosting my source code, ... It's also the reason I don't use any social network (it would be funny to know how many people fearing a breach of privacy through kinect have a facebook account...).

 

[eznark]

Bent over what? Far too many people wear tinfoil hats and worry about everything.

How old are you?

 

[Darklor01]

if it is like that, then why cant I physically detach it?

if for microsoft it is switched completely OFF and paused,
why cant I unplug it from the console?

I mean, come on!!

either microsoft fixes this, or I dont see many living rooms sporting a new xboxen

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I am OK with the issue here. Just saying tha THEY say you can completely turn if off when not used, and pause it when Xbox One is on.

I will not be buying one, at least, not at first

 

[FlyFaster]

1 -- ya right. I don't believe their lies.
2 -- Not a problem for PS4 since camera isn't in the box and isn't required.

 

[Clefargle]

Is there anything stopping my current Kinect, PSEye, Galaxy, iPod, Laptop or Vita from spying on me?

Stop this shit, apples/oranges.

 

[jeremiahg]

The sad thing is that as a technology, I actually like Kinect. I just think its in the wrong hands (Microsoft), and I can't bring myself to trust them. I wish it were coming from a more open and honest company, like Oculus.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

The sad thing is that as a technology, I actually like Kinect. I just think its in the wrong hands (Microsoft), and I can't bring myself to trust them. I wish it were coming from a more open and honest company, like Oculus.

Yeah, that is definitely a big part of the problem.

Microsoft doesn't have the best track record on this sort of thing.

 

[Kater]

Keep fighting the good fight! For consumers!

Hehehe. Microsoft, my big, brave hero.

 

[T.O.P]

Easy. I have had a Playstation Eye camera for years. No issues whatsoever. I have also used web cams, again no issues. I have my cellphone on all the time and many apps could be running in the background, along with some GPS apps (that I trust and turn off after to consume battery life).

Mind telling me when I should be worried? If you buy an Xbox One and use the system as it's intended to be used why would anyone have issues with the Kinect camera be running in the background? It is also only waiting for key words, which can also be turned off.

Leave it to the internet to have a collection of fear mongers making it seem like MS has nothing better to do than to record us farting in our living rooms.



Very scary. Ballmer will get a Tweet telling you you're holding the controller wrong. If people are that worried they can unplug the system when it's not in use. You will also have privacy controls for the Kinect device.

And this sums it up for me

 

[jeremiahg]

No, I'm 32. I used to be in the military where you have no privacy whatsoever. It wasn't a big deal. I don't have an irrational fear of people spying on me. If I did, I wouldn't be online and I wouldn't have a cell phone. There are probably going to be 30+ million people using the Xbox One at some point. The government couldn't watch everyone 24/7 if they wanted to. I'd be more worried about Sony's data security than the Kinect spying on me.

I thank you for your service, but your view is not universal. My father retired as a Lt. Colonel in the Army, and he was reluctant to even install Steam partially for privacy concerns. The gov doesn't have to spy on 30 million individuals. They could automate a system to analyze for patterns of behavior (words that are said repeatedly, for example), and hone in on individuals they deemed as suspicious. Or they may be tipped off to a person through something else (like Facebook), and then pay more careful attention to individuals of concern.

Many people value privacy, not just because they are concerned being caught doing illegal acts. Even if you are fine trusting a complete stranger with very personal information about you, it is highly probable that someone will eventually get in a position of power where this surveillance capability will be abused, resulting in gov oppression. We can argue that some incidents have already occurred. The trend is that the gov is forcing companies to turn over more and more personal data from their customers. As many here realize, Microsoft is an example of a company that already has a poor track record for protecting consumer interests. So why would we trust them with a camera in our living room that must always be connected?

 

[Louis Cyphre]

How old are you?

Old enough to figure out how to turn my Xbox One on and set up the Kinect sensor when I get it.

Send me soundproofing tape and I guess I'd consider it?

I guess I'm not as old as you.

 

[S¡mon]

Easy. I have had a Playstation Eye camera for years. No issues whatsoever. I have also used web cams, again no issues. I have my cellphone on all the time and many apps could be running in the background, along with some GPS apps (that I trust and turn off after to consume battery life).

Wait, so since you didn't have any personal issues with it, it is just alright? That Skype video call? Recorded. Your location of your cellphone? Recorded. And no, 'turning off GPS' doesn't help. As long as they youhave coverage, they know where you are.

I don't get it. Why would you want to sacrifice your privacy? For the 'war on terror'? Come on, your local McDonalds employee is a bigger threat to you than some guy in the Middle-East. I bet you haven't ever even been to the Middle-East. And if you have, bravo: than you know how civilized lots of people in the Middle-East are.

Your argument comes down to: I have nothing to hide and it doesn't cause me any trouble, so please, record everything I do.

No, Kinect is not going to actively record what you are doing. But as soon as you use it, as soon as you say "Xbox on" - the microphone is listening. It's listening for new commands, and "to improve the service" it's probably going to use the cloud. Which means it is going to Microsof't's servers and it is going to be recorded and stored - not only by Microsoft, but also by intelligence agencies.

No, Kinect won't be actively watching you, but as soon as you are going to use the camera (that can be for a game, Skype, etc.) than the video feed will be intercepted and recorded by intelligence agencies.
You may not have a problem with it, but it is clear that lots of people do have a problem with it. Simply being able to unplug Kinect would already help a lot.

Trust Microsoft? Why would I? Microsoft (along with other companies) have not only helped intelligence agencies to get access to people's personal e-mails, phone calls, internet data, etc. but they even implemented backdoors to make it easier. And when people found out, they lied. They said: "What? We sharing data? Noooo.... haha... why would you think that? We are nice."

You can't stop intelligence agencies from collecting data, but it doesn't help that a company - in this case Microsoft - actively helps those intelligence agencies and that they then lie about it.

So, please, forgive me when I am so skeptical, but Microsoft right now is very unreliable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
And Microsoft could do a lot to improve their image. For instance, they can say: well, okay, Kinect doesn't need to be plugged in. They can clear-up some shit too:

- Voice commands? Does it use the cloud and an internet connection? (If yes: reason to worry, if no: another problem solved).
- Actively helping to spy on its customers? If yes: reason to worry, if no: another problem solved.

These are just three issues which they can clear-up before tomorrow. But they don't. They constantly lie and are not clear about certain questions customer are asking.

Again, you can't stop an intelligence agency from gathering data. They can wiretap you, they can literally follow you, they can place equipment in your house, etc. Microsoft can't do anything about that.

We are, however, talking about an entirely different scenario when Microsoft actually helps them gathering information, than there is a problem. When they don't fix security bugs just to help intelligence agencies, than there is a problem. When they build backdoors for intelligence agencies, than there is a problem.

 

[NullPointer]

But as soon as you use it, as soon as you say "Xbox on" - the microphone is listening

Technically its always listening, even before you say "Xbox on". Otherwise how would it know you said it?

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Wait, so since you didn't have any personal issues with it, it is just alright? That Skype video call? Recorded. Your location of your cellphone? Recorded. And no, 'turning off GPS' doesn't help. As long as they youhave coverage, they know where you are.

I don't get it. Why would you want to sacrifice your privacy? For the 'war on terror'? Come on, your local McDonalds employee is a bigger threat to you than some guy in the Middle-East. I bet you haven't ever even been to the Middle-East. And if you have, bravo: than you know how civilized lots of people in the Middle-East are.

Your argument comes down to: I have nothing to hide and it doesn't cause me any trouble, so please, record everything I do.

No, Kinect is not going to actively record what you are doing. But as soon as you use it, as soon as you say "Xbox on" - the microphone is listening. It's listening for new commands, and "to improve the service" it's probably going to use the cloud. Which means it is going to Microsof't's servers and it is going to be recorded and stored - not only by Microsoft, but also by intelligence agencies.

No, Kinect won't be actively watching you, but as soon as you are going to use the camera (that can be for a game, Skype, etc.) than the video feed will be intercepted and recorded by intelligence agencies.
You may not have a problem with it, but it is clear that lots of people do have a problem with it. Simply being able to unplug Kinect would already help a lot.

Trust Microsoft? Why would I? Microsoft (along with other companies) have not only helped intelligence agencies to get access to people's personal e-mails, phone calls, internet data, etc. but they even implemented backdoors to make it easier. And when people found out, they lied. They said: "What? We sharing data? Noooo.... haha... why would you think that? We are nice."

You can't stop intelligence agencies from collecting data, but it doesn't help that a company - in this case Microsoft - actively helps those intelligence agencies and that they then lie about it.

So, please, forgive me when I am so skeptical, but Microsoft right now is very unreliable.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
And Microsoft could do a lot to improve their image. For instance, they can say: well, okay, Kinect doesn't need to be plugged in. They can clear-up some shit too:

- Voice commands? Does it use the cloud and an internet connection? (If yes: reason to worry, if no: another problem solved).
- Actively helping to spy on its customers? If yes: reason to worry, if no: another problem solved.

These are just three issues which they can clear-up before tomorrow. But they don't. They constantly lie and are not clear about certain questions customer are asking.

Again, you can't stop an intelligence agency from gathering data. They can wiretap you, they can literally follow you, they can place equipment in your house, etc. Microsoft can't do anything about that.

We are, however, talking about an entirely different scenario when Microsoft actually helps them gathering information, than there is a problem. When they don't fix security bugs just to help intelligence agencies, than there is a problem. When they build backdoors for intelligence agencies, than there is a problem.

Nothing you wrote will have any impact on me, I can tell you that right now. Any time you play people on Xbox Live you have already lost your right to privacy. Want to make threats to people online, expect the consequences. That is how things should work. Tell me, what is it that you expect me to do with the Kinect sensor on the Xbox One that I should worry about?

I will say it again, you can unplug your system while not using your Xbox One if you are that worried about it. There will also be privacy settings and the ability to even turn off so it won't even listen to key words like Xbox On.

You are in control of what Kinect can see and hear: By design, you will determine how responsive and personalized your Xbox One is to you and your family during setup. The system will navigate you through key privacy options, like automatic or manual sign in, privacy settings, and clear notifications about how data is used. When Xbox One is on and you’re simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded.

You are in control of when Kinect sensing is On, Off or Paused: If you don’t want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect. To turn off your Xbox One, just say “Xbox Off.” When the system is off, it’s only listening for the single voice command -- “Xbox On,” and you can even turn that feature off too. Some apps and games may require Kinect functionality to operate, so you’ll need to turn it back on for these experiences.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/privacy

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Nothing you wrote will have any impact on me, I can tell you that right now.

We know.

 

[elohel]

so why didn't they do this when the government was seeking data from their other stuff?

for the first time ever

i second this question

usually there's no need to second something,but this is it

 

[BigDug13]

Nothing you wrote will have any impact on me, I can tell you that right now. Any time you play people on Xbox Live you have already lost your right to privacy. Want to make threats to people online, expect the consequences. That is how things should work. Tell me, what is it that you expect me to do with the Kinect sensor on the Xbox One that I should worry about?

I will say it again, you can unplug your system while not using your Xbox One if you are that worried about it. There will also be privacy settings and the ability to even turn off so it won't even listen to key words like Xbox On.

You are in control of what Kinect can see and hear: By design, you will determine how responsive and personalized your Xbox One is to you and your family during setup. The system will navigate you through key privacy options, like automatic or manual sign in, privacy settings, and clear notifications about how data is used. When Xbox One is on and you’re simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded.

You are in control of when Kinect sensing is On, Off or Paused: If you don’t want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect. To turn off your Xbox One, just say “Xbox Off.” When the system is off, it’s only listening for the single voice command -- “Xbox On,” and you can even turn that feature off too. Some apps and games may require Kinect functionality to operate, so you’ll need to turn it back on for these experiences.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/privacy

Right, and Microsoft is requiring all games to have some sort of Kinect functionality. The camera will basically need to be on to play games. That's enough of a problem for some people. This idea that people are only worried about it when the system is turned off is not accurate.

It seems like nothing Microsoft does will have an impact on you anyway.

 

[NullPointer]

You are in control of what Kinect can see and hear: By design, you will determine how responsive and personalized your Xbox One is to you and your family during setup. The system will navigate you through key privacy options, like automatic or manual sign in, privacy settings, and clear notifications about how data is used. When Xbox One is on and you’re simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded.

You are in control of when Kinect sensing is On, Off or Paused: If you don’t want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect. To turn off your Xbox One, just say “Xbox Off.” When the system is off, it’s only listening for the single voice command -- “Xbox On,” and you can even turn that feature off too. Some apps and games may require Kinect functionality to operate, so you’ll need to turn it back on for these experiences.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/privacy

Yeah, about that:

Not unlike Kinect, Skype had assured its users that wiretaps were technically impossible. "Because of Skype's peer-to-peer architecture and encryption techniques, Skype would not be able to comply with such a request," the company told CNET in 2008. And four years later, when hackers accused Skype owner Microsoft of changing the service's backend to facilitate government eavesdropping, the company categorically denied the accusations. Now, it seems like the company could have been lying, or at least had quietly changed its mind. Mind you, Microsoft is also denying last Thursday's Guardian report, but the denial is a lot less clear-cut. The company disavows having providing "blanket or direct access" to Skype, but doesn't deny that it provides Skype video or audio to the government upon request.

Microsoft has already burned the "trust us" bridge.

 

[FrozenCell]

always online spycam in my bedroom... kinky

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I wonder how much money Microsoft will make from selling marketing data gathered from the new Kinect in the next 10 years.

 

[CookTrain]

Makes me laugh that even in their ideal scenario, they can only pledge to "aggressively challenge" instead of "deny".

 

[Marvel]

Stick a fork in it.

 

[CoG]

I wonder how much money Microsoft will make from selling marketing data gathered from the new Kinect.

That's the thing that really turns me off from Microsoft. It seems they have more people working on how to use Kinect for marketing purposes and useless remote control functionality than that have trying to figure out how to use it effectively in a game.

 

[MetatronM]

So basically Microsoft's response means "yes, the NSA can spy on you using Kinect if they want to."

Thanks for clearing that up, Microsoft.

 

[Gxgear]

"Everything has a price, we just want our fair share."