GoofsterStud
Member
However it's easier to get layouts of your room....with Kinect.
It's also on more often then you phone. It's also pointed at your room the hole time instead of against the wall.
Don't kid yourself.
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Microsoft will "aggressively challenge" any gov't attempt to spy through Kinect
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
However it's easier to get layouts of your room....with Kinect.
It's also on more often then you phone. It's also pointed at your room the hole time instead of against the wall.
Don't kid yourself.
this is funny
I'm not kidding myself, I mention that the Kinect camera is creepy in a special way. And that factors into this horrible "Two Wrongs Make a Right!" argument you're getting from these voluntary astroturfers.
edit: Also it isn't even about just generic cameras. Fuck that nonsense, who cares. Do you think someone will literally be watching you? What's way more important to acknowledge is that the Government may be cultivating all this information to create a profile on you. Everything you buy, you search, you say, where you travel, could be picked up and used to build an automated bio on who you are and what you may be capable of. This is bummer. You know what's a bigger bummer? Also throwing in a camera with an OS behind it that can read your facial features, your heartbeat, detects key words you say, and see it all correspond to a following image. And if you think this isn't a big deal, neuroscientists and psychologists use these same methods to see what someone may be thinking. Thankfully the Kinect is connected to a toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooy.
SwiftDeath
Member
What scares me more than anything is that this really doesn't seem that paranoid at all when you think about it
Thank you government for giving me absolutely no reason to trust you in pretty much anything
Awesome
Wait I'm confused
What do you mean that it's a toy?
That the Kinect isn't connected to something that is necessary to function in today's society. It's not a personal computer, it's not a laptop, it's not a cellphone. It's a videogame machine, you don't need it.What scares me more than anything is that this really doesn't seem that paranoid at all when you think about it
Thank you government for giving me absolutely no reason to trust you in pretty much anything
Awesome
Wait I'm confused
What do you mean that it's a toy?
SwiftDeath
Member
Your point is made moot but your concessions
To assume a cell phone/personal computer/laptop is necessary to function in todays society already gives way to the notion that it is entirely debatable what is "necessary"
Cell Phone sure except that business, society, etc. functioned with pagers/beepers before cell phones and with just land lines before that
Cell phones being necessitated merely validates that the world we live in is one of instant access and convenience
The argument for a cell phone being necessary would involve its use in work/ a job etc.
Other social benefits of it could be argued but it is not necessary, it is convenient
Life would be slower harder perhaps less enjoyable without it but not needed
I could for instance argue that for certain individuals games act as the greatest form of stress release or of personal enjoyment and hence by your argument necessitate that a video game console is necessary for some to enjoy life
A ridiculous argument of course but one not hard to draw from your original argument
You don't need a cell phone, it's just useful, it just make life more enjoyable
Same thing with a console
I guess you could be Amish. They're still around.
Fine, the cellphone and computer (also let's just throw The Internet on this list for good measure) are not necessities in the same way air is.
But they're unfathomably more necessary than the Xbone.
edit: And even if you do really want videogames in your life, (and in these cold proto-cyberpunk times, who can blame you?), there are many alternatives to the Xbone. There's even an alternative that is almost EXACTLY like it! And they're owned by foreign companies that don't even need to worry about the NSA 'forcing' them to join PRISM.
Fine, the cellphone and computer (also let's just throw The Internet on this list for good measure) are not necessities in the same way air is.
But they're unfathomably more necessary than the Xbone.
edit: And even if you do really want videogames in your life, (and in these cold proto-cyberpunk times, who can blame you?), there are many alternatives to the Xbone. There's even an alternative that is almost EXACTLY like it! And they're owned by foreign companies that don't even need to worry about the NSA 'forcing' them to join PRISM.
SwiftDeath
Member
Please stop using the word necessary
You have a valid point you do, you're just using the wrong wording
Almost everything in life is subjective as is this
Not everything that is useful is necessary
And yes your edit point is certainly valid
Just dislike when someone says cell phones/laptops is necessary
Makes me cringe at the notion of how dependent we all really are
Oh but we are.
If I gave up and avoided all the technology PRISM uses to track me, I would lose my job. And then finding one that didn't require me to use said technology? I would probably end up poor/starving & homeless/dead as a result. Much more necessary than useful, dontcha think?
SwiftDeath
Member
No no I don't
There are plenty of jobs to be had that do not require any of what we discussed
There are alternatives
Any belief that they are entirely necessary for your existence are silly at best
SwiftDeath
Member
Pretty much any blue collar job/ retail/ restaurant etc.
You could work those without a cell phone
It's just less CONVENIENT
Not that hard a concept honestly
And there are far more jobs btw
Actually these days it's pretty hard to be hired at these jobs without a cellphone number, not being able to be called in at a given moment is a pretty big detriment!
SwiftDeath
Member
Hmm perhaps more difficult but not necessary
If anything one could simply give a home number in place without saying its a home number
I think you understood my general point though?
Things are only usual "necessary" if we believe them to be so
The only thing any of us need to do is die everything else is entirely optional
Okay, an adjustment to my point then:
Many devices and types of software that are used by PRISM are necessary for us to maintain our quality of living above suicide inducing poverty.
The Xbone isn't one of them.
edit: And if your point is "We can't let ourselves be tricked that these are necessities, man, we can live without PRISM, man." Then by all means, lead the way.
double edit: And you'd still be using a phone in your situation. And if you're willing to disconnect yourself THAT much no doubt they're going to listen in because somethings up.
Many devices and types of software that are used by PRISM are necessary for us to maintain our quality of living above suicide inducing poverty.
The Xbone isn't one of them.
edit: And if your point is "We can't let ourselves be tricked that these are necessities, man, we can live without PRISM, man." Then by all means, lead the way.
double edit: And you'd still be using a phone in your situation. And if you're willing to disconnect yourself THAT much no doubt they're going to listen in because somethings up.
inpHilltr8r
Member
It's not called spying anymore, it's called user metrics, and the government can pay for them just like any other advertiser.
SwiftDeath
Member
Yes that is much better
Simply saying necessary to live/to live in society is ridiculous and untrue
Specifying certain ways in which you would like to live and therefore benefit from said devices allows for a far clearer and more fair assessment of that "need"
edit: And if your point is "We can't let ourselves be tricked that these are necessities, man, we can live without PRISM, man." Then by all means, lead the way.
double edit: And you'd still be using a phone in your situation. And if you're willing to disconnect yourself THAT much no doubt they're going to listen in because somethings up.
My point was that it was a choice, one uneeded to live within the confines of our society
The fact that it is a choice is important
I am choosing to be a part of the network and therefore have to sacrifice certain things under the confines of the current system
But now that I am aware of Prism why should I let its power be extended?
Cell phones, laptops were certainly in use before people were made aware of the scope of Prism
Xbox one's were not
Perhaps in iphone 6 I would like a GPS free option, or a camera free option
It's not going to happen but I am well within my rights to complain about it even if I own a previous phone simply due to the new information recently presented
Well hell, my initial statement was being able to function in today's society, not to literally survive.
How functional is a person that has to lie to job owners about telephone numbers so that he might work at a gas station for a living is pretty debatable. I guess he may end up performing a function, but that's not where I was getting at.
How functional is a person that has to lie to job owners about telephone numbers so that he might work at a gas station for a living is pretty debatable. I guess he may end up performing a function, but that's not where I was getting at.
SwiftDeath
Member
Notice how I address(use) your original word choice in my last comment
I was well aware of it
My point is you do not need a cell phone to be a functioning member of society
That is ridiculous
I do however think we likely have different defintions for functioning member of society
Also since you're insulting my viewpoint (or use of words, whatever) a little bit. I'll be stingy and say that claiming it's a "choice" and that anyone can toss out their gadgets, quit their jobs, and work in low-class labor is a gross generalization and completely fucking ignorant of poverty/the economy/healthcare in America. There are people who would literally die or go insane from lack of treatments if they (or whoever is paying for their treatment) lost their jobs, families that would starve, and people that would lose their homes and be kicked to the streets.
SwiftDeath
Member
Clearly my point was wholly on the notion that you were using the words incorrectly
I never argued that those devices and gadgets aren't useful
In fact I argued they were
But necessary is not the right word to describe them
Do you not understand the definition of the word necessary?
Furthermore I didn't want to bring it up when you first mentioned it as it would surely only serve to encourage further movement away from the topic at hand
But do you truly believe that without a cell phone the best you or I could do would be live at "suicide inducing poverty"?
Do you honestly believe that is the most-likely outcome from giving up your gadgets?
I imagine most people would disagree with you there
I never argued that those devices and gadgets aren't useful
In fact I argued they were
But necessary is not the right word to describe them
Do you not understand the definition of the word necessary?
Furthermore I didn't want to bring it up when you first mentioned it as it would surely only serve to encourage further movement away from the topic at hand
But do you truly believe that without a cell phone the best you or I could do would be live at "suicide inducing poverty"?
Do you honestly believe that is the most-likely outcome from giving up your gadgets?
I imagine most people would disagree with you there
And you know what? I wouldn't be able to have my job that provides me with healthcare for my epilepsy. Do you think America has a good enough of a safety net that I can choose to quit my job and pursue this PRISM free lifestyle?
Maybe you can imagine giving up the cellphone. But no longer using a Windows or Macintosh, let alone the internet in general? Yeah, it gets exponentially trickier to not have a shit life.
What's crap about this "choice" argument is that (if you are lucky enough to even see it as a choice) it's like an offer you can't refuse. You can either use technology that is being used to violate your privacy, or you can really stack the deck against your pursuit of happiness.
Also it intrinsically places the blame on the victim. "We're the ones who choose to not clean toilets for a living and instead integrate modern technology into our lives, it's our own faults we're spied on."
If this was about you purely being picky about semantics, I would've written you off as a over-analytical douche.
I'm using extremes here, like you're using the cellphone of all gadgets to prove your case.
Maybe you can imagine giving up the cellphone. But no longer using a Windows or Macintosh, let alone the internet in general? Yeah, it gets exponentially trickier to not have a shit life.
What's crap about this "choice" argument is that (if you are lucky enough to even see it as a choice) it's like an offer you can't refuse. You can either use technology that is being used to violate your privacy, or you can really stack the deck against your pursuit of happiness.
Also it intrinsically places the blame on the victim. "We're the ones who choose to not clean toilets for a living and instead integrate modern technology into our lives, it's our own faults we're spied on."
Because it made you "cringe at the notion of how dependent we all really are". Like we aren't. You keep trying to downplay the importance of technology in today's society while being unable to name any jobs that aren't minimum or low paying garbage. No, we are dependent. Computers, laptops, and cellphones are necessities. Because they are; to many people, for many jobs, for many reasons.
If this was about you purely being picky about semantics, I would've written you off as a over-analytical douche.
SwiftDeath
Member
To be perfectly frank I believe there is a job you could hold that could be done without a cellphone that could cover your health care
I imagine a dentist or even hell a lawyer could get away without a cell phone if they truly wanted to
An ER surgeon? Perhaps not
I didn't want to bring up the jobs argument because at best it's entirely and completely subjective based on no real factual grounds
How do I know that given every possible instance of your reality you couldn't find a job that doesn't require the use of a cell phone but still covers your health care etc.?
How can you just assume that everyone everywhere requires one in their pursuit of happiness?
Lack of evidence (or job examples) is by no means evidence to either side
This argument is so fundamentally far from the topic that I'm surprised no one has chimed in about it
We obviously have differing opinions
I do think you're a little close-minded if the only life you can envision without a cell phone is one of poverty
And yes I made the quip about our dependency but that doesn't preclude the point I made that it's a choice, it just further illustrates how fundamentally flawed the concept is
But I digress, I have no desire to feed the flames of argument on here (or anywhere for the matter) so I apologize if my initial counterargument offended you
But I do disagree with you on almost every individual point and nothing that you have said has convinced me in the slightest against my previous statements
I imagine a dentist or even hell a lawyer could get away without a cell phone if they truly wanted to
An ER surgeon? Perhaps not
I didn't want to bring up the jobs argument because at best it's entirely and completely subjective based on no real factual grounds
How do I know that given every possible instance of your reality you couldn't find a job that doesn't require the use of a cell phone but still covers your health care etc.?
How can you just assume that everyone everywhere requires one in their pursuit of happiness?
Lack of evidence (or job examples) is by no means evidence to either side
This argument is so fundamentally far from the topic that I'm surprised no one has chimed in about it
We obviously have differing opinions
I do think you're a little close-minded if the only life you can envision without a cell phone is one of poverty
And yes I made the quip about our dependency but that doesn't preclude the point I made that it's a choice, it just further illustrates how fundamentally flawed the concept is
But I digress, I have no desire to feed the flames of argument on here (or anywhere for the matter) so I apologize if my initial counterargument offended you
But I do disagree with you on almost every individual point and nothing that you have said has convinced me in the slightest against my previous statements
I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with paying 250 for a device I don't need that is there to make Microsoft more money.
Silly argument about necessity.
Here the govt consider internet (just recently though) and access to a phone line in the same kind of rights as having a roof over your head and getting electricity or having fresh water.
That doesn't mean it's free either.
Putting that on the same "oh but you don't need that to live!" level as the xbone is disingenous to say the least.
You can live without them but you're not putting every chance with you as far as being a productive member of society too.
And when I say access to a phone line I'm not talking about the latest iphone either.
Here the govt consider internet (just recently though) and access to a phone line in the same kind of rights as having a roof over your head and getting electricity or having fresh water.
That doesn't mean it's free either.
Putting that on the same "oh but you don't need that to live!" level as the xbone is disingenous to say the least.
You can live without them but you're not putting every chance with you as far as being a productive member of society too.
And when I say access to a phone line I'm not talking about the latest iphone either.
SwiftDeath
Member
The original arguement was Odrion arguing a cellphone/laptop/internet was needed whereas an X1 wasn't and therefore it's not nearly as big a concern as it's "a toy"
I was simply arguing that none of those items are needed and hence the arguement over whether something is "a toy" or not is irrevelant to the discussion at hand
I have no desire for any of my consumer goods to be susceptible to Prism regardless of the level of usefulness I get from said item
He's right though, here the state actually consider access to these items needed to function in current society.
It's not the case for the Xbone, it's indeed relegated to the toys sections as far all things are concerned here.
It's absolutely not the case for access to internet and a phone line.
That also means that anyone can have access to a phone line/internet through some official channels (for people seeking employment, there's a dedicated place provided by the state where they have all the facilities to seek an employment).
Same as with electricity and fresh water if you don't pay your bills it'll be cut off.
Absinthian
Neo Member
I would worry about hackers more than the NSA.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Yup. That's my only gripe with the XB1 now. They've made sure to let us know how awesome Kinect 2's video fidelity, and ability to read biometrics is, but have done nothing to suggest how this will enhance my gaming experience. I honestly think the most use the Kinect 2 is going to get from gaming, is from third party devs utilizing the PS4's touchscreen gestures, and then mapping the same exact controls over to the Kinect 2. Beyond that, the Kinect is just a really awesome piece of tech that does nothing for me.
SwiftDeath
Member
My overarching point in all that I have said is that something of this nature is entirely subjective and not objective by any measure of the words. It is not a fact but an opinion expressed in the way we live our lives
Just because a government any government provides access to something doesn't make it a requirement to function in that society
A single individual who currently lives in our society and functions fine without a cell phone or internet makes that requirement moot
To assume there isn't such an individual in the whole of our society is entirely improbable
It is our opinion, it is not a necessity
But again as you have said the argument is unnecessary at best and I had no desire to drag it out to this length
Oh they will use everything at their disposal to spy on you so buying yet another device that does this makes no sense considering their are gaming options out there that don't come with super cameras.
No you don't get it.
The society as it is really is just the will of the people in the system we're in.
As such it's been deemed at the same level of need as electricity and fresh water delivered directly in your house.
You certainly can live without it if you deem it unnecessary but clearly there's a consensus that deem these services as basic needs.
Some would claim that easy access to food in local markets is unecessary too, or access to the electric grid too.
But in all these argument no one will ever deem the xbone on the same level as phone, food, internet, water or even a roof over your head.
if you don't follow the rules for the house you live in, they can take the house from you btw, basic needs or even ownership doesn't mean you can whatever you want either or that it's free either.
What one individual may claim is of interest to no one if it doesn't affect anyone but himself.
If you are seriously arguing for the sake of being weirdly absolutist about the use of a word (seriously?) Here's your winning argument.
"nec·es·sary
2: : absolutely needed : required
The Amish exist, so no."
Then you can sit quietly with a feeling of self-satisfaction while we write you off as someone that doesn't understand context.
First post ever. Is there any proof the original Kinect has ever been used for to send information on it's users through Xbox Live? While the Kinect 2.0 is a much more powerful version, I'd think that if we could prove that it happened with the Kinect 1.0 then it'd be possible with 2.0. While there is definitely more incentive to use it to to gather data as it will be always connected, I just couldn't find proof of any precedent with Kinect 1.0 (but I only did a quick Google search).
I'm still picking up the Xbox One because I feel I have enough control over my privacy with it. I can still turn it off, play offline if I need to, not that I really cared that much about privacy issues at the start, but I do understand why others feel that way. As far as the general market reacting to privacy issues (not necessarily saying there will be issues), the way I see it, until lack of privacy directly impacts our QoL I don't think the general population will care enough.
I'm still picking up the Xbox One because I feel I have enough control over my privacy with it. I can still turn it off, play offline if I need to, not that I really cared that much about privacy issues at the start, but I do understand why others feel that way. As far as the general market reacting to privacy issues (not necessarily saying there will be issues), the way I see it, until lack of privacy directly impacts our QoL I don't think the general population will care enough.
If it couldn't be done, they wouldn't dance around like a pervert trying to convince a jury that he really didn't want to peek, they would simply claim it's not possible.
and welcome I guess
Using that logic, you could say that humans only need bread + water + a place to poop (a 1m x 1m cell) and nothing else. Noone to speak with. No clothing. Nothing. Maybe such human would go crazy after a while, but that human would survive somewhat. It would be a horrible life, but everything else isn't "strictly necessary".
Alx
Member
That's not his question, though. What he's saying is that if MS wanted to spy on people through kinect2, they could just as well have started doing it with kinect1, so he was wondering if there was any sign of such activity on the current generation.
And as far as I know, there's none. They do collect officially some data as explained on their website, but none of it has privacy issues, and we don't know about any sign of other data collection.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I believe you Microsoft, especially after helping NSA bypass encryption to your key services.
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