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[Agent_4Seven]

No. The Feedback Cycle at big companies like these involves having community managers and marketing people scour gaming forums like GAF to find excerpts about specific problems people had and collect data on amount of specific mentions of what people hated the most. The heads of the teams get to go over that criticism with the marketing people and their bosses and "plan for the future" which often means having to listen to (often true) scathing criticism of something you just spent a chunk of your life killing yourself for.

DA2 had some ridiculous development cycle of something like 11 months. That is savage. The people involved had to answer for the direct criticisms of Dragon Age Origins (too generic looking, gather the races and save the world plotline, combat "shuffle" and poor console interface) while building a RPG in a year. So they broke their backs over it and likely had troubled times that they found breakthroughs they were proud of, struggled through other portions that they tried to hide the weaknesses of, and did the best they could. There are a lot of very specific things to like about DA2 and the team was likely proud of those things.

The audience thought otherwise. When you're really close to it, you often see your own triumphs over the struggles you're going through rather than the overall triumphs of game design. The audience doesn't see the 16 times you did that mission design before finally ending up on one that actually works. They don't see how you had to re-script the entirety of the 5th chapter of the 2nd act because the modellers couldn't budget enough time for your dungeon. Etc.

His comment was specifically about how, after hearing all the "feedback", he was pretty sure everyone hated his game and all the flaws were laid bare for him. He was likely crushed; no one wants to put out something that everyone hates. But finding a group of people that saw the good side of the game probably touched him and motivated him to keep going.

Which is good for humans.

For the record, I didn't like DA2, but the Bioware knife twisting is sad these days.

I don't hate DAII btw, there's some good things in this game the main and the best of which is awesome combat and badass Qunari design (which put to shame Qunari from DAI - just awful), but I think they knew exactly what would happen after they hand over the gold build of the game and I don't think that they've expected something different. Also, if you release something like DAII, be ready for the fact that everyone will remember this game no matter of the circumstances surrounding its development. Plus, it is absolutely pointless right now to tell us how bad it was back then and all that cuz it won't change a thing and won't make the game better too. What's done is done.

 

[Renekton]

This is ultimately why it sold poorly (people didn't like it) and why EA went in such a radically different offline MMO direction for Dragon Age: Inquisition.

Anywhere I can find data/news about its poor total sales?

The last google search showed ******** ugh.

 

[Teeth]

I don't hate DAII btw, there's some good things in this game the main and the best of which is awesome combat and badass Qunari design (which put to shame Qunari from DAI - just awful), but I think they knew exactly what would happen after they hand over the gold build of the game and I don't think that they've expected something different. Also, if you release something like DAII, be ready for the fact that everyone will remember this game no matter of the circumstances surrounding its development. Plus, it is absolutely pointless right now to tell us how bad it was back then and all that cuz it won't change a thing and won't make the game better too. What's done is done.

lolwat?

Laidlaw: "I remember feeling really good about having such a good turnout at a public event after having to deal with all of the negative feedback on DA2."

internet denizen: "WTF DOES HE ACTUALLY THINK DA2 IS GOOD"

Teeth: "It turns out that you can get really close to a project that has a difficult development. Just making it through it can make you feel proud of the accomplishment regardless of the quality it actually turns out to be. Laidlaw was likely feeling very low after having to face up to all of the negative feedback, even if it was all warranted."

You: "THEY KNEW IT WAS SHIT. THAT'S WHAT THEY GET. WHY IS HE TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE IT WAS GOOD. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT."

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

DA2 was okay. Way better characters than 3.

I love how some people in this thread are trying to make excuses as to why other people liked a video game.

People are really seeing a different story than I am at the end there, huh? He flat out says "After parts of DAII’s “feedback cycle” that meant a LOT to me." That sounds to me like "damn, our game fell really flat, people fucking hated this game that we rushed like shit to get out the door, to see that people actually still liked the game that we poured ourselves into makes me feel better about my life choices". But hey, maybe I'm reading too far into it.

"Life choices".

You must be fun at parties.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

lolwat?

Laidlaw: "I remember feeling really good about having such a good turnout at a public event after having to deal with all of the negative feedback on DA2."

internet denizen: "WTF DOES HE ACTUALLY THINK DA2 IS GOOD"

Teeth: "It turns out that you can get really close to a project that has a difficult development. Just making it through it can make you feel proud of the accomplishment regardless of the quality it actually turns out to be. Laidlaw was likely feeling very low after having to face up to all of the negative feedback, even if it was all warranted."

You: "THEY KNEW IT WAS SHIT. THAT'S WHAT THEY GET. WHY IS HE TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE IT WAS GOOD. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT."

Well, first of all, in regards to justification I've meant DAI and it's absolutely undeserved GOTY status. Please, just watch MEA interview at GI in which one of the developers said something like this in regards to criticism of DAI - "Well, the game has won many GOTY awards in 2014". Now, what I'm saying is that it means nothing and you can't justify the obvious and many flaws of the game by saying that the game has won many GOTY so it doesn't really matter and the game is good. It's stupid and very poor argument.

Second of all, again, I don't think that they expected something different from the feedback after release of the game and I honestly can't believe that they thought that DAII was worthy successor to DAO. The game was build in just 11 or so months for Christ's sake, which is just insanely short period of time for this type of game. You can't develop something like DAO in just 11 monts or so. It's absolutely unrealistic to think that many people will like such a game. Just think about it. Do you think testers and fans of DAO who played the game long before release also liked the game? If so, then how can you explane a ton of negative feedback after release? I'm not saying that you trying to justify BioWare's poor work, it's just like I've said absolutely pointless to say how bad it was for them as if they didn't expected this kind of feedbak. And I do like to see that they're not trying to defend DAII, but ultimately it doesn't matter right now cuz you can't fix the game and make people not to expect something like this in the future. If you've made such a poor or questionable games, people will always remember this and will be sceptical about future titles no matter what cuz you failed to meat their expectations like two times in a row.

Also, feedback thing is one of the biggest problems of their games (especially DAI), they don't know how to adequately react to it. If people are saying that this game is too linear and the game's world is made up of pipes and corridors and just one location / hub for the entire game, it doesn't mean that you need to build a freaking huge, cool looking but empty environments in which absolutely nothing meaningful, interesting, cool and memorable is happening - NOTHING. If people are saying that there's too much repetative and similar quests in the same enviroments and locations - go there, kill bad guys, go back, it doesn't mean that you need to fill all of these freaking huge, cool looking and empty enviroments with MMO fetch quests and absolutely pointless and time wasting activities, which is also resulted in added crafting, inventory management and other absolutely unnecessary and boring stuff. If people didn't liked much more fast paced (and frankly the best combat system DA even had) combat system, it doesn't mean that you need to go for absolutely boring MMO style combat and add damage sponge enemies to the game from which you can't escape even by playing the game on a very easy difficulty level to make combat system less boring and tedious.

Addressing criticism is one of the HUGE problems of BioWare as a developer and which needs to be solved asap. It's not like they've done everything wrong, no, far from it, but ultimately it doesn't matter if the game have some good stuff in it, cuz everything else is dragging it back in a huge way. I think that first of all they need to start developing games that THEY REALLY WANT TO PLAY AND WHICH THEY CAN ENJOY PLAYING, and only that out of the way they need to start adressing the very low and questionable points of their previous games. It's that simple. People's feedback is just as important as everything else, but you also can't rely heavily on it and overcorrect everything that people didn't liked. I think they're taking criticism very personally, why too serious and close to their hearts which is understandable but... it is not the best way to handle criticism and frankly, it's not good for them too cuz it might result in depression.

 

[dangeraaron10]

Dragon Age Origins remains one of my favorite RPGs ever.

Dragon Age II actively made me angry

Dragon Age Inquisition made me fall asleep at the controller.

OPINIONS!

Frankly, I could have dealt with Dragon Age II had it not froze every other cutscene, or had some level variety, or didn't remove my favorite specialization and abilities from Origins, and had better companions (yet somehow they were better than Inqusition's horrible cast), didn't remove Elves and Dwarves (super thankful for Inquisition bringing them back alongside Qunari), had options for healing that WAS NOT ANDERS.

Maybe I'd liked it more if they gave me the option to kill Anders when I first met him. Origins 'stab option' style.

Can't really understand how people like DAII over DAO but hey, people have different tastes and sometimes they just don't like pause n' play strategy.

Edit: This all could have been avoided if they simply made Dragon Age: Origins 2. Take the original, build on it, tweak a few criticisms of it in minor ways. Boom. Instant amazing.

 

[Arulan]

My god. Perfection! And that ending!

EA Superior: What did we learn, Laidlaw?
Mike Laidlaw: I don't know, sir.
EA Superior: I don't fuckin' know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir.
EA Superior: I'm fucked if I know what we did.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir, it's, uh, hard to say.
EA Superior: Jesus Fucking Christ.

I needed that laugh.

Yeah.

 

[Poodlestrike]

The amount of stuff DA2 got right is incredibly impressive considering the timeframe, but yeah, calling it "great" is a bit of a stretch. I would agree with the implication of the wording in the OP though- the reaction was kind of over the top.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

People are really seeing a different story than I am at the end there, huh? He flat out says "After parts of DAII’s “feedback cycle” that meant a LOT to me." That sounds to me like "damn, our game fell really flat, people fucking hated this game that we rushed like shit to get out the door, to see that people actually still liked the game that we poured ourselves into makes me feel better about my life choices". But hey, maybe I'm reading too far into it.

That's exactly how I read it as well. He was carefully and diplomatically saying why he didn't expect folks to turn up at their panel.

 

[Lucifon]

This just reminded me how solid the story was for DA2. Combat was alot of fun on a gamepad too. Scale of the conflict and repetitive copy pasta areas completely dragged it down though.

It also reminded me how much of a let down DA:I's story and overall game was. So forgettable. Yet for some reason I sunk alot of time into it.

 

[Back-In-Black]

lolwat?

Laidlaw: "I remember feeling really good about having such a good turnout at a public event after having to deal with all of the negative feedback on DA2."

internet denizen: "WTF DOES HE ACTUALLY THINK DA2 IS GOOD"

Teeth: "It turns out that you can get really close to a project that has a difficult development. Just making it through it can make you feel proud of the accomplishment regardless of the quality it actually turns out to be. Laidlaw was likely feeling very low after having to face up to all of the negative feedback, even if it was all warranted."

You: "THEY KNEW IT WAS SHIT. THAT'S WHAT THEY GET. WHY IS HE TRYING TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE IT WAS GOOD. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT."

Sounds about right.

Also, little know secret Mike Laidlaw Twitch steams games periodically. And, if you pay attention he's talked about mechanics from other games that implemented for future DA titles, if indeed he were working on such a project. xD

 

[horkrux]

you're disingenuously attempting to argue a different point.

On its own merits, the game doesn't work. If you liked it, fine, but it's a bad video game, by any basic understanding of game design. This is ultimately why it sold poorly (people didn't like it) and why EA went in such a radically different offline MMO direction for Dragon Age: Inquisition.

There's a reason Bioware folks I've talked to have told me to "never ask anyone who worked on the game what they think about it."

Bad video game with good story, interesting focus on just one location (which works out at least to some extent), good side quests, good characters and servicable combat. That's not a bad video game. And that's just judging the game by very basic criteria.

There is enough reason to hate the sequel, but they still managed to deliver a good game, despite all its shortcomings.

 

[LordJim]

Bad video game with good story, interesting focus on just one location (which works out at least to some extent), good side quests, good characters and servicable combat. That's not a bad video game. And that's just judging the game by very basic criteria.

There is enough reason to hate the sequel, but they still managed to deliver a good game, despite all its shortcomings.

What's good about the story?
The mage/templar conflict is executed in the most hackneyed way possible, and the factions make decisions you cannot actually influence, making your choices throughout the game largely worthless.
You are supposed to be the champion that shapes Kirkwall, but you are just the cleaner who kills idiots when shit hits the fan.

 

[Back-In-Black]

you're disingenuously attempting to argue a different point.

On its own merits, the game doesn't work. If you liked it, fine, but it's a bad video game, by any basic understanding of game design. This is ultimately why it sold poorly (people didn't like it) and why EA went in such a radically different offline MMO direction for Dragon Age: Inquisition.

There's a reason Bioware folks I've talked to have told me to "never ask anyone who worked on the game what they think about it."

I don't think you know what a bad video game is. This is like people that refuse to accept that MGS4 was a good game and not the worst thing ever.

 

[His Majesty]

I don't think you know what a bad video game is. This is like people that refuse to accept that MGS4 was a good game and not the worst thing ever.

Massive recycling of assets, no exploration whatsoever, disappointing combat, poor characters and too much emphasis on combat make Dragon Age II a terrible RPG. The high-budget nature of the game can't conceal that.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I liked DA2, and only liked DA:O as entries in the Wiki. Actually playing DA:O was like watching paint dry. Both were good games for their intended audience. That or I just have terrible taste in games.

 

[Bubble]

Despite all the issues with DA2, I still enjoyed it more than Inquisition. DA2 had a better protagonist and side-quests in comparison to Inquisition. It's unfortunate that DA2 is the black sheep among the Dragon Age games because DA2 did have good ideas, like Hawke.

 

[Mister Megative]

We actually did a pretty amazing interview with Mike a few weeks back, it's a great listen.

Sorry about the self-promotion, but given the thread I thought it was relevant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lk4f1IsanL4

 

[Back-In-Black]

Massive recycling of assets, no exploration whatsoever, disappointing combat, poor characters and too much emphasis on combat make Dragon Age II a terrible RPG. The high-budget nature of the game can't conceal that.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with you HARD on that. DAII has its problems but there is a reason it got consistent high scores at the time of its release. It's a good game, just a step down from Origins.

We actually did a pretty amazing interview with Mike a few weeks back, it's a great listen.

Sorry about the self-promotion, but given the thread I thought it was relevant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lk4f1IsanL4

I remember watching this interview a few weeks ago, great stuff. Also, it seemed pretty clear from the interview he is working on DA4.

 

[Mister Megative]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with you HARD on that. DAII has its problems but there is a reason it got consistent high scores at the time of its release. It's a good game, just a step down from Origins.



I remember watching this interview a few weeks ago, great stuff. Also, it seemed pretty clear from the interview he is working on DA4.

We definitely got that feeling as well, but didn't want to press too hard on it.

 

[Shadow Broker]

"The reaction"

"Feedback cycle"

Bioware probably still thinks Dragon Age 2 was a great game.

For me it is a great game. 2nd only to Origins in the series. I still haven't finished Inquisition.

 

[jettpack]

I read his name as Marc Laidlaw and got really confused for a hot second.

Me too. Was incredibly excited also

 

[pashmilla]

On one hand, the DLC sounds like it could have been great. On the other, it being scrapped gave us DA:I and Trespasser, so I can't complain too much. Bring on DA4!

 

[Carlius]

It was the best Dragon Age game.

after playing inquisition, i would put it at second best after origins yes. thats how bad inquisition was.

 

[danm999]

Jokes aside I'm guessing the team who worked on DA II knew exactly what was wrong with it. The whole thing felt like they'd churned it out extremely quickly to meet a deadline.

That's why there were disappointing problems with art design, environments, enemy encounters, some of the characters and quests, a lot of the decision making and branching paths, etc. They just ran out of time. In fact some of the DLC they did end up making fixes a lot of these problems so you get the sense they knew exactly what was lacking.

 

[horkrux]

What's good about the story?
The mage/templar conflict is executed in the most hackneyed way possible, and the factions make decisions you cannot actually influence, making your choices throughout the game largely worthless.
You are supposed to be the champion that shapes Kirkwall, but you are just the cleaner who kills idiots when shit hits the fan.

It kinda went downhill after killing the Artichoke, but right up until then it was an interesting setup that had me intrigued with the Qunari being there and the city not knowing what to do with them.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Jokes aside I'm guessing the team who worked on DA II knew exactly what was wrong with it. The whole thing felt like they'd churned it out extremely quickly to meet a deadline.

That's why there were disappointing problems with art design, environments, enemy encounters, some of the characters and quests, a lot of the decision making and branching paths, etc. They just ran out of time. In fact some of the DLC they did end up making fixes a lot of these problems so you get the sense they knew exactly what was lacking.

Well, DAII wasn't really planned. They were already working on Inquisition but then EA wanted a game out sooner because Inquisition was going to take a while, thus we got DAII. It's an impressive game given the time frame they had to develop, essentially just less than two years.