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Millionaire tries to get $829 via kickstarter to send daughter to RPG maker camp?

Context absolutely matters. I also think her premise that boys would quickly snatch the money is correct too. Because for a guy, what are the consequences? You either keep the money, or you give it back after the point is proven. But for a girl, the pressure is to not be seen as greedy or shallow.

She further states that even with "no rules" or outside influence, the girls still don't clamor for the cash. But once again, the patriarchal structure is still in place, because the mentor exists as "the leader" regardless of gender, and women have less privilege to show independence in front of a leader than men do. You don't even need money, even raising a hand is fraught with more peril if you're a woman.

it's an absolutely horrible example though - for one thing she's comparing 13/14 year old boys to college students.

I'd say that most people that age/situation wouldn't randomly pick up loads of money they came across in a busy classroom.
 

Portugeezer

Member
Actually, none that I can find.

None of the gaming sites have actually picked it up properly yet though, so hopefully they do a damn better job than the technology sites which seem to be promoting it more than anything.

The story emerged over the weekend though, so we'll see if it pops up today I guess.
Games journalism (tm)
 

Midou

Member
it's an absolutely horrible example though - for one thing she's comparing 13/14 year old boys to college students.

I'd say that most people that age/situation wouldn't randomly pick up loads of money they came across in a busy classroom.

I picked up a 10 dollar bill in a museum when I was like 10 on a field trip and gave it to my teacher, back then I thought I was being a nice guy, now I realized I'm naive and she probably kept it. :p
 

moka

Member
If you criticize anything related to a woman you're mysoginist, even if it's a scam. Holy shit people are so ignorant.

THIS WHOLE THREAD IS SO MISOGYNISTIC. YOU GUYS JUST DON'T LIKE RICH, POWERFUL, INDEPENDENT WOMEN.

They don't need no sugga daddies.

VGfpQJF.png
 

LukeTim

Member
Context absolutely matters. I also think her premise that boys would quickly snatch the money is correct too. Because for a guy, what are the consequences? You either keep the money, or you give it back after the point is proven. But for a girl, the pressure is to not be seen as greedy or shallow.

She further states that even with "no rules" or outside influence, the girls still don't clamor for the cash. But once again, the patriarchal structure is still in place, because the mentor exists as "the leader" regardless of gender, and women have less privilege to show independence in front of a leader than men do. You don't even need money, even raising a hand is fraught with more peril if you're a woman.

I'm sorry but people are a lot more complex than that.

This is not a men/women problem. There are some men who would snatch the money, I know many (including myself) whom I believe would not.... also, there are many women I am sure who would snatch it too, and again many who wouldn't.

There are so many other factors at play than being a male or female which would determine behaviour in that situation... to boil it down to this is a complete fallacy.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
it's an absolutely horrible example though - for one thing she's comparing 13/14 year old boys to college students.

I'd say that most people that age/situation wouldn't randomly pick up loads of money they came across in a busy classroom.

I have no doubt that she read the concept somewhere, and then decided to create an experiment to illustrate this concept. The concept is sound, the experiment, not so much, because as you say, five twenty dollar bills laid out on desks is suspicious.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
So disappointing, but predictable, to see others fall for the gender rally call and circle the wagons around this KS on that basis.

This is, unfortunately, what KS faces if they decide to shut this down. But I hope they do the right thing by their own terms of service.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
I'm sorry but people are a lot more complex than that.

This is not a men/women problem. There are some men who would snatch the money, I know many (including myself) whom I believe would not.... also, there are many women I am sure who would snatch it too, and again many who wouldn't.

There are so many other factors at play than being a male or female which would determine behaviour in that situation... to boil it down to this is a complete fallacy.

Oh absolutely. I would never ask someone to buy me a drink, and I know plenty of women who would never ask someone to buy them a drink either. But much like a guy will have more privilege to consequnce-free pick up a 20 during a classroom experiment (i.e. He can just laugh it off and have less concern people will make judgments on his social status), a woman has more privilege to consequence-free ask for a drink. She won't get laughed at or dressed down.
 

LukeTim

Member
Oh absolutely. I would never ask someone to buy me a drink, and I know plenty of women who would never ask someone to buy them a drink either. But much like a guy will have more privilege to consequnce-free pick up a 20 during a classroom experiment (i.e. He can just laugh it off and have less concern people will make judgments on his social status), a woman has more privilege to consequence-free ask for a drink. She won't get laughed at or dressed down.

I'm sorry. I just can't see it. I don't understand how a woman can't 'laugh off' picking up a $20 bill as easily as a man can... And similarly I can't understand how a man can't pick up the $20 and not laugh it off, and feel embarrassed and as though others are judging him for it. I know I'd likely be in the latter category, I worry about what people think about the things I do and say all the time... I'm a guy.

Maybe I'm just weird.
 

Chinner

Banned
i find it really weird how the angle on this kickstarter is to prove her mean brother wrong.... but the video has basically no mention of it. not really weird, just inconsistent.
 

smr00

Banned
If people are stupid enough to fund this kind of shit then let them.

This, the whole Tropes bullshit.. I just want nothing to do with Kickstarter in general. I haven't "donated" to anything yet and i never will. If a game or movie or anything cool comes from kickstarter like an FTL or Hotline Miami i have no problem supporting the people directly from their site but im not supporting the actual kickstarter site until they get better regulations on what is allowed to be kickstarted.

The fact that this and tropes and all these BS starters get funded makes me never want to go to that shitty site.
 

LukeTim

Member
If people are stupid enough to fund this kind of shit then let them.

This, the whole Tropes bullshit.. I just want nothing to do with Kickstarter in general. I haven't "donated" to anything yet and i never will. If a game or movie or anything cool comes from kickstarter like an FTL or Hotline Miami i have no problem supporting the people directly from their site but im not supporting the actual kickstarter site until they get better regulations on what is allowed to be kickstarted.

The fact that this and tropes and all these BS starters get funded makes me never want to go to that shitty site.

By the tropes bullshit, do you mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I (that is, the thing this is responding to)

I just want to be clear. I've heard it mentioned in this thread, but wasn't sure what it meant...
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
I'm sorry. I just can't see it. I don't understand how a woman can't 'laugh off' picking up a $20 bill as easily as a man can... And similarly I can't understand how a man can't pick up the $20 and not laugh it off, and feel embarrassed and as though others are judging him for it. I know I'd likely be in the latter category, I worry about what people think about the things I do and say all the time... I'm a guy.

Maybe I'm just weird.

Yeah, girls and guys are different. I don't have to think about what I wear in the context of "will this result in me being sexually assulted," which is absolutely something women do consciously think about.

Interaction with peers in a classroom setting (such as with the 20s) is loaded with subtle gender politics that do have measurable effects.
 

ido

Member
Can't believe this is still a thing.

And it is pretty frustrating to see people skim this over and side in her favor, labeling anyone who explains how and why this is a scam a misogynist.
 

LukeTim

Member
Yeah, girls and guys are different. I don't have to think about what I wear in the context of "will this result in me being sexually assulted," which is absolutely something women do consciously think about.

Interaction with peers in a classroom setting (such as with the 20s) is loaded with subtle gender politics that do have measurable effects.

I'm not saying men and women are not different. They absolutely are. All I mean is that I am not convinced that in this case they are as different as you are saying.

I dunno. Maybe I am wrong... Seems silly to me... could also be fuelled by my hatred of money and staunch anti-capitalism.
 

Muku

Member
Man, these women are off their rockers. No one hates it because she's a girl. Good grief. But I love how she has to rationalize why this behavior is acceptable. "KS approved it so it must be ok" crap. As a woman, I'm ashamed these women are stooping to such a low level to make themselves feel better. Obvious rule breaking is obvious ladies. Grow up.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
I'm not saying men and women are not different. They absolutely are. All I mean is that I am not convinced that in this case they are as different as you are saying.

I think the mentor who created the bad experiment was trying to illustrate a sound principle based on slight behavioral differences. I think the rate of 20 pickup is probably pretty close, but definitely something that can be statistically measured, like "hand raising" in a classroom by gender.

I was reading the Joakim CG thread, and someone brought up an experiment a teacher in the 50s or 60s did. His students had a hard time believing that fascism rose in Germany so organically, so the teacher created a "fascism-light" club and students unwittingly joined. The problem is that that's a cute experiment, and helps people get an idea of how Nazi Germany started by living through a little class exercise -but it's not Nazi Germany.

It's super hard to scale these big, complicated social issues down to a few dozen people, that's why they're abstracted.

It's like when physicists say they can measure the size of the universe through "red-shift," and explain it by how an engine sounds as it's racing towards you, then away from you.

That analogy is about as useful as plonking down 20s on a desk in order to explain why women are lagging in business. It's a fun little "lookitthis" but a gross over-simplification. It's just a metaphor. It does not invalidate her central point about how men and women handle money.
 

jcm

Member
THIS WHOLE THREAD IS SO MISOGYNISTIC. YOU GUYS JUST DON'T LIKE RICH, POWERFUL, INDEPENDENT WOMEN.

They don't need no sugga daddies.

[IMG/]http://i.imgur.com/VGfpQJF.png[/IMG]

I don't understand what you're trying to prove with that picture. Because at first blush it seems like you are introducing actual misogyny to this thread, which up to this point had admirably avoided it.

I hope I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying.

I really, really want women in tech.

This is a nasty, exploitative scam. I don't understand why so many people cannot see this.

Cosigned. I think that Jane McGonigal hasn't actually thought this through, assuming she's a reasonably intelligent person. I've actually never heard of her.
 

ido

Member
I don't understand what you're trying to prove with that picture. Because at first blush it seems like you are introducing actual misogyny to this thread, which up to this point had admirably avoided it.

I hope I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying.

Na'h. He/she is being ironic/sarcastic.
 

LukeTim

Member
I think the mentor who created the bad experiment was trying to illustrate a sound principle based on slight behavioral differences. I think the rate of 20 pickup is probably pretty close, but definitely something that can be statistically measured, like "hand raising" in a classroom by gender.

I was reading the Joakim CG thread, and someone brought up an experiment a teacher in the 50s or 60s did. His students had a hard time believing that fascism rose in Germany so organically, so the teacher created a "fascism-light" club and students unwittingly joined. The problem is that that's a cute experiment, and helps people get an idea of how Nazi Germany started by living through a little class exercise -but it's not Nazi Germany.

It's super hard to scale these big, complicated social issues down to a few dozen people, that's why they're abstracted.

It's like when physicists say they can measure the size of the universe through "red-shift," and explain it by how an engine sounds as it's racing towards you, then away from you.

That analogy is about as useful as plonking down 20s on a desk in order to explain why women are lagging in business. It's a fun little "lookitthis" but a gross over-simplification. It's just a metaphor. It does not invalidate her central point about how men and women handle money.

Okay, I understand you now. Yeah, her experiment was not even an experiment. She was never going to extract any useful information from it.
 

Polari

Member
How the fuck is this misogyny? The response would be the same if it was a father running the campaign? The mother is a total sociopath.
 
THIS WHOLE THREAD IS SO MISOGYNISTIC. YOU GUYS JUST DON'T LIKE RICH, POWERFUL, INDEPENDENT WOMEN.

They don't need no sugga daddies.

VGfpQJF.png

The girl to the left looks really happy about not having studied if you ask me. Looks like she just won the lottery tbh.

Or did Susan Wilson refer to how unhappy she makes the guy (he doesn´t look very pleased)? So not studying makes your husband unhappy? Is that what she´s trying to teach us here? I´m so confused by that video...

;-)
 

moka

Member
I don't understand what you're trying to prove with that picture. Because at first blush it seems like you are introducing actual misogyny to this thread, which up to this point had admirably avoided it.

I hope I'm just misinterpreting what you're saying.



Cosigned. I think that Jane McGonigal hasn't actually thought this through, assuming she's a reasonably intelligent person. I've actually never heard of her.

Sorry, sarcasm doesn't transfer well over the Internet.

I said that because some woman on Twitter just started screaming "Misogyny" without refuting any of the points made. No explanation, nothing.

This whole situation is far from being misogyny. They just make it into that. They want it to be that.
 

Gannd

Banned
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't transfer well over the Internet.

I said that because some woman on Twitter just started screaming "Misogyny" without refuting any of the points made. No explanation, nothing.

This whole situation is far from being misogyny. They just make it into that. They want it to be that.


you just don't understand because of privilege !
 

Bedlam

Member
Check out McConigals twitter. Now she is openly suggesting we are attacking women in tech. It's a coordinated attack on feminism!
 

Kelas

The Beastie Boys are the first hip hop group in years to have something to say
That's disappointing stuff from McGonigal. Clearly hasn't assessed the situation fully before making those comments.
 

Bedlam

Member
She doesn't reply to my tweets.
Of course she won't. Dealing with valid criticism would not fit into the pre-emptively established feminist narrative.

edit: Kav Latiolais (whoever that is) blocked me too for saying

@kavla @avantgame If by "organized" you mean discussions on forums, you're right. The KS gets criticism b/c TOS violations. Facts matter.

No facts allowed!
 

Kelas

The Beastie Boys are the first hip hop group in years to have something to say
Having said her involvement in this is disappointing, she doesn't deserve any kind of vitriol like she just retweeted. Unfortunately that's how the internet seems to work. I think she's essentially "got it wrong" on why people are against this KS, but assholes attacking her are only going to reinforce her position and the same old cycle will repeat itself. One reason why this sexism debate never seems to get anywhere, or only makes forward motion at a snail's pace, is down to people positioning themselves awkwardly like this. They call out some perceived sexism and instantly label everyone on that "side" as misogynists, without fully understanding or caring to understand what's actually going on. The more attacks the person gets, the more staunchly they stick to their position, and the less likely they are to actually engage with valid criticism. In fact, valid criticism or attempts to discuss are thrown in with the vitriol spewers, AKA the "misogynists".
 

RpgN

Junior Member
I really, really want women in tech.

This is a nasty, exploitative scam. I don't understand why so many people cannot see this.

Maybe she didn't invest enough research understanding the purpose of this kickstarter and thought Shinta was like all the other guys who complain about anything regarding women in gaming?

Either way, this kickstarter is wrong on so many levels that it's making me sick. I really hope it gets taken down and the family won't receive a dime.
 

Kikujiro

Member
That's disappointing stuff from McGonigal. Clearly hasn't assessed the situation fully before making those comments.

I don't know who she is, but judging from how she's handling the situation on twitter she doesn't seem much better than our Susan Wilson here. The comments calling her out are gone and she won't admit she was wrong. People like her think they are above any kind of criticism and they only see what they want to see. It's easy to play the victim card when she was the one who actually started all this shit by accusing unfairly someone of being mysoginist.
 
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