Support NeoGAF

[DoktorEvil]

.

I haven't spun anything an your blatant dismissal of control schemes (which are pretty fucking important) isn't something I'm entertaining any more.

FYI, I work in Real Estate in NY, not in Redmond for Nintendo.

Or should I show you my drivers license to prove that?

You should really think about how many times you've said casual an didn't directly insult them for choosing to play with pick up controls.

 

[Papacheeks]

I haven't spun anything an your blatant dismissal of control schemes (which are pretty fucking important) isn't something I'm entertaining any more.

FYI, I work in Real Estate in NY, not in Redmond for Nintendo.

Or should I show you my drivers license to prove that?

You should really think about how many times you've said casual an didn't directly insult them for choosing to play with pick up controls.

Wow!, and here we are again. I specially tell you that your reliance on being fixated on the control schemes is why me and other's are arguing with you.

If control scheme really mattered Wii U would be in a different position correct? Because it uses Wii motes, and easy swiping motions on the gampad like a tablet right?

Me and other's have proved to you by showing you why Nintendo is in the position it is in. Miaymoto's interview was more or less talking about gamer's who play the flappy bird, wii bowling games.

Not the Bayonetta's, W101, 3D WORLD, games that people on these threads play and talk about.

Motion control outside of tablet like gestures are over. The only motion control that has any relevancy are tilting racing wheels, and maybe some gimmicky shaking controllers for certain games.

SALES in PS4, Xbox, Wii U Mario Kart bundles prove that. People just want games, diverse gameplay with good mechanics is what needs to be diverse not motion control.

Do you think Oculus Rift would benefit motion controls with a Wii mote like device?

or would the combination of a 3D headset display, with a simple controller be more than efficient to entice consumers?

 

[DoktorEvil]

Wow!, and here we are again. I specially tell you that your reliance on being fixated on the control schemes is why me and other's are arguing with you.

If control scheme really mattered Wii U would be in a different position correct? Because it uses Wii motes, and easy swiping motions on the gampad like a tablet right?

Me and other's have proved to you by showing you why Nintendo is in the position it is in. Miaymoto's interview was more or less talking about gamer's who play the flappy bird, wii bowling games.

Not the Bayonetta's, W101, 3D WORLD, games that people on these threads play and talk about.

Motion control outside of tablet like gestures are over. The only motion control that has any relevancy are tilting racing wheels, and maybe some gimmicky shaking controllers for certain games.

SALES in PS4, Xbox, Wii U Mario Kart bundles prove that. People just want games, diverse gameplay with good mechanics is what needs to be diverse not motion control.

Do you think Oculus Rift would benefit motion controls with a Wii mote like device?

or would the combination of a 3D headset display, with a simple controller be more than efficient to entice consumers?

I'm tired of this debate and I don't appreciate being called a PR rep, especially since I gain nothing but stress arguing with gamers like you way too often.

Control scheme always matters. Controls schemes are what allow devs to create games for low or high level gameplay. If it doesn't matter, we'd still be using 1 or 2 buttons like in Atari or NES days. But as the core matures, you can introduce more buttons and innovation like 360 analog sticks, giving you untold amounts of freedom!

The Wii U offers a Gamepad as a compromise to the core. You have dual analog sticks, 8 buttons and a touchscreen. There's a good deal of craftsmanship in the Gamepad and the design is more comfortable than the 360 controller. You can't see a larger controller while being comfortable a good innovation?

I said Miyamoto called the core pathetic for passive gaming. I said this 3-4 times. I Read his quotes to you, but you keep repeating "casual". There's either an issue with language here or you're blatantly ignoring what I've (and others) have said about his comments.

Motion controls were gimmicks for MS and Sony. Had either company offered even a select few motion control games that weren't non responsive or complete shovelware , Id happily eat my words, but they didn't. Nintendo using the motion controls exclusively? A historically conservative company at that? That's no gimmick.

Oculus Rift is nothing special either. Augmented/Virtual Reality isn't particularly new. The innovation is claiming that it can make non-3D games more 3-dimensional, which if it's not fucking up eyes, will be a cool innovation. The verdict on how controls schemes should be on that headset isn't out yet, so I don't have an opinion either way. If there isn't issues with eye strain or motion sickness, then it's a success.

 

[Papacheeks]

I'm tired of this debate and I don't appreciate being called a PR rep, especially since I gain nothing but stress arguing with gamers like you way too often.

Control scheme always matters. Controls schemes are what allow devs to create games for low or high level gameplay. If it doesn't matter, we'd still be using 1 or 2 buttons like in Atari or NES days. But as the core matures, you can introduce more buttons and innovation like 360 analog sticks, giving you untold amounts of freedom!

The Wii U offers a Gamepad as a compromise to the core. You have dual analog sticks, 8 buttons and a touchscreen. There's a good deal of craftsmanship in the Gamepad and the design is more comfortable than the 360 controller. You can't see a larger controller while being comfortable a good innovation?

I said Miyamoto called the core pathetic for passive gaming. I said this 3-4 times. I Read his quotes to you, but you keep repeating "casual". There's either an issue with language here or you're blatantly ignoring what I've (and others) have said about his comments.

Motion controls were gimmicks for MS and Sony. Had either company offered even a select few motion control games that weren't non responsive or complete shovelware , Id happily eat my words, but they didn't. Nintendo using the motion controls exclusively? A historically conservative company at that? That's no gimmick.

Oculus Rift is nothing special either. Augmented/Virtual Reality isn't particularly new. The innovation is claiming that it can make non-3D games more 3-dimensional, which if it's not fucking up eyes, will be a cool innovation. The verdict on how controls schemes should be on that headset isn't out yet, so I don't have an opinion either way. If there isn't issues with eye strain or motion sickness, then it's a success.

You should read this:

Edge speculates that this means Miyamoto (and hence Nintendo) believes that the window has shut on making games for entry-level gamers. Titles like Brain Training, which opened up the DS to a huge audience of people who had rarely if ever played games before, may now be pointless; the consumers they ought to target are all playing games on their phones and tablets, so there isn't an addressable market remaining there for dedicated hardware and more expensive (non-F2P) games. This is fair analysis, and indeed, it probably features in Nintendo's thinking; let iOS serve as the entry level for new gamers and then hope that those who enjoy the experience will ultimately upgrade to the superior offerings available on a dedicated console.
At the same time, though, Nintendo itself has a conception of "casual" and "core" that probably isn't shared by the majority of sites reporting Miyamoto's comments.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-08-28-nintendo-isnt-hitting-reset

If you read the whole article it goes into depths that Nintendo is staying the course in making high quality challenging games, that will appeal to a mass broader audience, but also still retaining the appeal to the core gamers with depth.

Miyamoto's comments are an earnest and down-to-earth appraisal of Nintendo's present situation; still recovering from the heady days of the Wii and figuring out how much of that flash-in-the-pan market is really sustainable, but knuckling down to the challenge of entertaining and delighting (and of course, selling to) those within the audience who really enjoyed games rather than latching onto the platform as a fad. Contrary to the more excitable reportage on his comments, Miyamoto is promising no major changes to Nintendo's approach; rather, he's re-committing himself and the company to the same course of action which delivered games like Mario Kart 8, a title firmly within the family-friendly Nintendo tradition and absolutely celebratory of challenge and good design.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-08-28-nintendo-isnt-hitting-reset

Article also touches on the whole outlook they have on the mobile market. I got what you were saying. But you were basing your whole argument on control schemes when games like The last of Us don't have giant complexities, yet are met with praise from different demographics.
The same could be said for games like Shadow of the Collossus, RE4, Bastion, Journey. They are popular and reviewed well because of the gameplay mechanics, story, and art direction not the control scheme.

Look at Zelda:A link Between worlds, it's mechanics and the design that make the game fantastic, not the control scheme which is regular button presses, and swipes on a touch screen device.

Which proves control schemes don't matter as much as gameplay mechanics.
Okami was a PS2 game that really was refreshing and used dare I say it a controller to convey painting, and it did it extremely well without any kind of motion control.

 

[DoktorEvil]

You should read this:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-08-28-nintendo-isnt-hitting-reset

If you read the whole article it goes into depths that Nintendo is staying the course in making high quality challenging games, that will appeal to a mass broader audience, but also still retaining the appeal to the core gamers with depth.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-08-28-nintendo-isnt-hitting-reset

Article also touches on the whole outlook they have on the mobile market. I got what you were saying. But you were basing your whole argument on control schemes when games like The last of Us don't have giant complexities, yet are met with praise from different demographics.
The same could be said for games like Shadow of the Collossus, RE4, Bastion, Journey. They are popular and reviewed well because of the gameplay mechanics, story, and art direction not the control scheme.

Look at Zelda:A link Between worlds, it's mechanics and the design that make the game fantastic, not the control scheme which is regular button presses, and swipes on a touch screen device.

Which proves control schemes don't matter as much as gameplay mechanics.
Okami was a PS2 game that really was refreshing and used dare I say it a controller to convey painting, and it did it extremely well without any kind of motion control.

I agree with your statement, but not that they don't matter as much, rather they affect what gameplay mechanics you can introduce. Control is one part of the argument. But he's right about shallower games.

Remember what I said about passive gamers and how games have become shallower that Miyamoto echoed?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=885107

This is a fellow Gaffer who noticed CoD4 MW took out all of the recoil from MP play to make the game "more fun and accessible".

This is a game which turned the tide of what games would be popular from 2007 to today, first person shooters and established the trend of ugly FPS shooters that are dumb easy to pick up and play.

This is what he meant about shallow gameplay.

 

[Papacheeks]

I agree with your statement, but not that they don't matter as much, rather they affect what gameplay mechanics you can introduce. Control is one part of the argument. But he's right about shallower games.

Remember what I said about passive gamers and how games have become shallower that Miyamoto echoed?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=885107

This is a fellow Gaffer who noticed CoD4 MW took out all of the recoil from MP play to make the game "more fun and accessible".

This is a game which turned the tide of what games would be popular from 2007 to today, first person shooters and established the trend of ugly FPS shooters that are dumb easy to pick up and play.

This is what he meant about shallow gameplay.

COD4 had weapon recoil? Go back and play it compared to what's out now.
The special sauce that made the game an instant hit was mainly the fast paced shooting and the experience system with the call of duty hit detection.

It was the progression on the battlefield that if you were playing well, you could have a come back and possibly win the match with a stealth helicopter you earned by playing smart.

I 'm not going to get into things like this with you. You brought up in previous post's AC, and COD to try and back up your argument on control schemes and easy games. It's just not worth it the headache.

Miyamoto wouldn't be saying this shit if the Wii U was doing well. He also would acknowledge all the great games that have come out under other systems. WHich sold well and were met with high praise just like the ones he makes.

If Nintendo's games were selling their console this thread and his conversation would not be here.

There are challenging games out there on PC, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii Wii U. But his company and both their product lines are not doing well so they put the blame on the actual player's for not wanting higher standards in game design, mechanics, and challenge.

Am I right?

But the problem is there are games out there with challenge that make you think, there are games that have complicated control schemes.
But their just not selling on his System, so he has to echo the word's of wisdom for why people are not gravitating towards Nintendo.

 

[DoktorEvil]

COD4 had weapon recoil? Go back and play it compared to what's out now.
The special sauce that made the game an instant hit was mainly the fast paced shooting and the experience system with the call of duty hit detection.

It was the progression on the battlefield that if you were playing well, you could have a come back and possibly win the match with a stealth helicopter you earned by playing smart.

I 'm not going to get into things like this with you. You brought up in previous post's AC, and COD to try and back up your argument on control schemes and easy games. It's just not worth it the headache.

Miyamoto wouldn't be saying this shit if the Wii U was doing well. He also would acknowledge all the great games that have come out under other systems. WHich sold well and were met with high praise just like the ones he makes.

If Nintendo's games were selling their console this thread and his conversation would not be here.

There are challenging games out there on PC, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii Wii U. But his company and both their product lines are not doing well so they put the blame on the actual player's for not wanting higher standards in game design, mechanics, and challenge.

Am I right?

But the problem is there are games out there with challenge that make you think, there are games that have complicated control schemes.
But their just not selling on his System, so he has to echo the word's of wisdom for why people are not gravitating towards Nintendo.

If Wii U moved units regardless, he'd still say the same thing about the core and passive gaming. Stop protecting companies that are offering you B-C tier gameplay with new themes.

And I brought up AC and CoD because they're popular, sold well regardless of platform, and are perfect examples of his argument. Stop dodging the inconvenient truth.

 

[Papacheeks]

If Wii U moved units regardless, he'd still say the same thing about the core and passive gaming. Stop protecting companies that are offering you B-C tier gameplay with new themes.

And I brought up AC and CoD because they're popular, sold well regardless of platform, and are perfect examples of his argument. Stop dodging the inconvenient truth.

Your using games that have yearly iterations. Which I have not brought up btw.
Secondly I have owned Nintendo systems, and played the Wii U and what it has to offer. My huge collection of gamecube games would prove that.

The argument that you seem keen on ignoring is that I am being truthful while your being opinionated about it.

Wii U isn't doing well=Truth
Handheld market isn't doing well=truth
Nintendo's First party games are not selling like they use too=truth

I said these in my last post, and your bringing up games that get churned out every year, and neglecting the ones plus I mentioned that are not yearly releases.

Nintendo needs a fresh take on what they should be putting out for games. They should have bought Platinum Games to make games exclusively for them. It sucks that in my heart I know DragonScale for the XBoxne which is being made by Platinum will probably sell more than W101 and Bayonetta 2 because Microsoft knows how to promote.

The devils third will not sell well. Neither will Captain Toad. Nintendo needs western developers to make exclusive games for them and have them be promoted well for them to bring back success and buzz to their console.

Miyamoto is frustrated that the great games he helps create or oversee are being overshadowed by Third party games, but also Exclusives on the competition.

Complexity and depth is there in these games, it's just their not always in the mainstream media. Games like Child of Light, Valient Hearts, Ho-Hokum, Little Big planet, Ori.

It's the position that Nintendo is in that paints a negative shadow over people like Miyamoto who work hard to bring something new and exciting to emerging gameplay, not the other games that are in the industry.

It's not the industry's fault Nintendo failed to keep up with simple technology like online service, stream lined digital storefront, and diversity in genre's of games.

 

[GorillaJu]

He said "kawaisou?" That doesn't mean pathetic... Not at all. It means like "I feel bad for them."

Though at 24 pages I'm sure this has been covered more than a few times.

 

[Toxi]

If motion controls are really "over", we completely wasted the best FPS control scheme outside of mouse and keyboard to fiddle with two thumb sticks. It's sad to think of all the potential wasted even after Prime 3 showed up and proved yes, this was worthwhile.

 

[tanooki27]

somehow I'm totally ok with the "throwing shade" phrase as long as it's preceded by the word "miyamoto."

 

[agrajag]

Considering W101, DKCTF and pikmin 3 all fit into what he's talking about I'd say those.

You just dont care about them because you're a

Spoiler

passive gamer

Fuck outta hear with your misguided elitism. DKC series is my favorite gaming franchise.

You didn't answer my question. DKCTF and Pikmin were previously released. W101 wasn't even made by Nintendo.

So once again, I ask, what is Nintendo doing to reflect this new-found love for the core gamers? And I'm not being snarky, I'm asking out of curiosity.

 

[protomouse]

Fuck outta hear with your misguided elitism. DKC series is my favorite gaming franchise.

You didn't answer my question. DKCTF and Pikmin were previously released. W101 wasn't even made by Nintendo.

So once again, I ask, what is Nintendo doing to reflect this new-found love for the core gamers? And I'm not being snarky, I'm asking out of curiosity.

Start by defining what a core gamer is and what a core gamer likes.

Furthermore, you can't discount games like TW101 and Bayonetta 2. They exist solely because Nintendo is completely funding them.

 

[DoktorEvil]

If motion controls are really "over", we completely wasted the best FPS control scheme outside of mouse and keyboard to fiddle with two thumb sticks. It's sad to think of all the potential wasted even after Prime 3 showed up and proved yes, this was worthwhile.

With Splatoon and hopefully new FPS games that'll appear on Wii U, I hope FPS gets a second chance.

I'd have loved to have seen more on rails shooters with the Wii, other than the RE Chronicles games. Games like Time Crisis and Virtua Cop would've done well with a custom Wiimote case and the Nunchuk.

 

[Zeyphersan]

Rewatching their E3 2007 press conference, it's completely obvious that their plan was to get everyone interested in gaming. They thought that grandma would fall in love with Wii Sports and also want to grab the new Zelda or Mario

Looking at the sales figures of the Wii, I can see how they reached this conclusion, but in retrospect, we can safely say it didn't work. I know personally my mom loves Wii Tennis and Wii Boxing, but never committed. She also bought Brain Age to use on my sister's DS (which only ever touched Nintendogs and Cooking Mama anyway), played it for a couple days, and never touched it again.

Here's the video for those wanting the history first-hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJN7XX26NFU