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[Slayven]

I always felt they were kinda of kneecapped by the Tolken IP.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Still trying to figure out why they made her look like Stoya.

 

[Lashley]

I personally don't mind, they're allowed to take liberties surely?

 

[Calamari41]

Is Shelob really the one thing that people will take a stand on when it comes to this game? Seriously? Everything up to now is completely okay, but making a Spider into a sexy lady (which isn't original in the sleightest) is the breaking point for people?

I don't get it. Must be a Gaf thing again.

Also don't act if Christoper Tolkiens word on this matters at all. The inner Tolkien circle pretty much hates everything that is not original work by JRRT. Yes, even the movies.

Speaking for myself, the only exposure I have to the game is whatever GAF says about it, and all of the discussion I've seen on here has been this issue and that insane commercial.

I consider myself lucky to not know what else they've been doing.

 

[Chev]

Ungoliant's origins are unknown, and Shelob is half of whatever that thing was and half giant spider. So it's not that far of a stretch.

"Whatever that thing was" is Umaiar spider, the second race of giant spiders. But sure, Ungoliant (whose name translates to "dark spider"), of the umaiar spider race which are giant spiders may have been something else than a spider, right?

I personally don't mind, they're allowed to take liberties surely?

Let's make Darth Vader into a blonde girl in the next Star Wars game. After all, we never knew what he looks like under the mask, right?

 

[Jerry Orbach]

BR: Probably, but we run everything through Middle-earth Enterprises. They vet all of our ideas and we get feedback from them on specific details. Like, for example, if there’s an enemy who’s evil his blood must be black.

That's so cool! Does it show through their skin? Are black people in Middle-earth just white people with tainted blood? Now I can't stop picturing evil sorcerers being modeled on black actors instead of just voiced by them.

 

[SapientWolf]

"Whatever that thing was" is Umaiar spider, the second race of giant spiders. But sure, Ungoliant (whose name translates to "dark spider"), of the umaiar spider race which are giant spiders may have been something else than a spider, right?


Let's make Darth Vader into a blonde girl in the next Star Wars game.

"Umaiar spiders" were demons who took the form of a spider. But it's not even 100% clear if Ungoliant was an Umaiar. She's literally a big question mark.

 

[Demoskinos]

Why is everyone mad at Monolith here? Everyone talking about them losing their Tolkien cred when the estate of Tolkien were the ones who green lit this.

To me that is the more surprising thing.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

Ungoliant's origins are unknown, and Shelob is half of whatever that thing was and half giant spider. So it's not that far of a stretch.

Ungoliant was a giant spider. She gave birth to more giant spiders.

It's really that simple.

"Umaiar spiders" were demons who took the form of a spider. But it's not even 100% clear if Ungoliant was an Umaiar. She's literally a big question mark.

Do you have text to support this?

 

[Chev]

"Umaiar spiders" were demons who took the form of a spider. But it's not even 100% clear if Ungoliant was an Umaiar. She's literally a big question mark.

The maiar shapeshifting power is lost to evil, as you may recall. Demonic shapes were for keeps. As for the other argument, she may have been a question mark but she was by all known accounts a spider shaped question mark who gave birth to giant spiders.

 

[L Thammy]

Still trying to figure out why they made her look like Stoya.

Not enough.

 

[SapientWolf]

The maiar shapeshifting power is lost to evil, as you may recall. Demonic shapes were for keeps. As for the other argument, she may have been a question mark but she was by all known accounts a spider shaped question mark who gave birth to giant spiders.

And Melian gave birth to an elf. Doesn't make her an elf.

 

[Lashley]

"Whatever that thing was" is Umaiar spider, the second race of giant spiders. But sure, Ungoliant (whose name translates to "dark spider"), of the umaiar spider race which are giant spiders may have been something else than a spider, right?


Let's make Darth Vader into a blonde girl in the next Star Wars game. After all, we never knew what he looks like under the mask, right?

Do it, I've never wanked over Vader before. It'll be new to me.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Ungoliant was a giant spider. She gave birth to more giant spiders.

It's really that simple.

She was a creature of immense power and unknown origin who chose to take the form of a giant spider. What other powers she may have possessed are never made explicit. Don't confuse your interpretation with anything resembling a fact.

 

[L Thammy]

Why is everyone mad at Monolith here? Everyone talking about them losing their Tolkien cred when the estate of Tolkien were the ones who green lit this.

To me that is the more surprising thing.

Turns out the real culprit was J.R.R. Tolkien himself. Monolith conjured his ghost in a seance, and he told them that Gollum and Shelob were the real main characters of Lord of the Rings and that Shelob was a shapeshifting woman who looks like she should be in a bad vampire movie. Then Tolkien's ghost went into this whole rant about how they're taking away our anime titties, but Monolith couldn't figure out how to implement that in the game.

 

[LQX]

Is Shelob the only thing they have changed from the book?

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

She was a creature of immense power and unknown origin who chose to take the form of a giant spider. What other powers she may have possessed are never made explicit. Don't confuse your interpretation with anything resembling a fact.

Please find me the text that says she chose to take the form of a giant spider.

My interpretation that she's a giant spider who gave birth to giant spiders? I don't really see how that's anything but a fact.

 

[Chev]

And Melian gave birth to an elf. Doesn't make her an elf.

Melian hadn't forsaken her shapeshifting powers to evil though.

Do it, I've never wanked over Vader before. It'll be new to me.

Yeah, but see, that's an honest take on it. If they just went "we wanted to wank to Shelob but not to a giant spider" no one would accuse them of trying to justify themselves through an ill-informed revision of canon.

Although some people would try to argue than you can in fact wank to giant spiders.

 

[Lashley]

Is Shelob the only thing they have changed from the book?

And that ent wife turning into the druid healer from wow

also, talion and celebrimbor making a new ring

 

[Maximo]

Is Shelob really the one thing that people will take a stand on when it comes to this game? Seriously? Everything up to now is completely okay, but making a Spider into a sexy lady (which isn't original in the sleightest) is the breaking point for people?

I don't get it. Must be a Gaf thing again.

Also don't act if Christoper Tolkiens word on this matters at all. The inner Tolkien circle pretty much hates everything that is not original work by JRRT. Yes, even the movies.

People have discussed IN LENGTH with many threads the other things people have "made a stand on" including the cancer charity, the lootboxes, and the shitty preorder pizza tortinos thing. IDK must be a ignorant person thing to make grand inncorect statements and then label a whole website.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why is everyone mad at Monolith here? Everyone talking about them losing their Tolkien cred when the estate of Tolkien were the ones who green lit this.

To me that is the more surprising thing.

From the last page.

In November 2012, in United States District Court, Central District of California, Fourth Age Limited, the Trustees of the Tolkien Trust, and publishers Harper Collins Publishers, Ltd., Unwyn Hyman, Ltd. and George Allen and Unwin (Publishers) Ltd. sued Warner Bros. Digital Distribution, Inc., a division of Warner Bros. Home Entertainment, Inc.; Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc. as successor-in-interest to New Line Cinema Corp.; Warner Brothers Consumer Products, Inc.; Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, Inc.; New Line Productions, Inc.; and the Saul Zaentz Company, doing business as Middle-earth Enterprises, alleging copyright infringement, breach of contract, and declaratory relief, arguing that the Defendants exceeded the scope of their rights.[11]

The suit alleges that by producing gambling and video games using his characters, the parties ignored the limitations of the rights purchased more than four decades ago in 1969; contending the original licence to Tolkien's works was limited to the right to sell "tangible" products such as "figurines, tableware, stationery items, clothing, and the like", but did not cover "electronic or digital rights, rights in media yet to be devised or other intangibles such as rights in services".[12] Tolkien's estate claimed that the defendants actions had caused "irreparable harm to Tolkien's legacy".

 

[RPG_Fanatic]

I would have more respect for them if they just owned the fact they've taken massive liberties with the world instead of pretending there's actual justification for their dumb shit anywhere in the original texts.

This right here. As eye rolling as a sexy Shelob is, I find the shaky justification to be way worse.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Well for one, last time we heard about the Shelob stuff the devs also brought up information about her new role and she comes off like a woman scorned, who was in a really bad break up with Sauron so that's why she's helping you.

It's really terrible all over. Lots of overplayed tropes and sounds lazily written by things they have said.

Shelob you long time.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Ironically, this rationale is why I initially thought it was Ungoliant itself, even more batshit crazy as that would he. Because Ungoliant at least has 'Well we're not even really sure what they are' logic going for them.

Here's what The Book of Lost Tales has to say on her:

Very deep and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet on the sea as the ancient books say, and here . . . dwelt the primeval spirit Móru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that sail the airs.

Even as a 'spirit', Ungoliant is not of the Valar, and presumably not the Maia, nor do they know where the hell she come from. That gives you leeway that the Silmarillion - where she just kinda exists - does not.

Yet they go with the character who is expressly known even to casual fans for being a giant spider, and to hard-core fans for exclusively being a giant spider.

 

[Freshmaker]

The loot crates are actually canon to the fiction, mind. There's a chapter in the Silmarillion where Bilbo or some fuck pays several gold coins for a box containing random stat bonuses. It wasn't really understood at the time, but I guess Tolkien could foresee some really specific trends.

The ring basically came from a loot crate.

 

[Maximo]

The ring basically came from a loot crate.

Sauron had to pay $300 before he finally got it.

 

[Freshmaker]

Sauron had to pay $300 before he finally got it.

In Bilbo's case he got it from loot cave. It was Destiny.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Please find me the text that says she chose to take the form of a giant spider.

From Jonny->

Here's what The Book of Lost Tales has to say on her:

"Very deep and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet on the sea as the ancient books say, and here . . . dwelt the primeval spirit Móru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that sail the airs."


Even as a 'spirit', Ungoliant is not of the Valar, and presumably not the Maia, nor do they know where the hell she come from. That gives you leeway that the Silmarillion - where she just kinda exists - does not.

Now you find me the text that says Ungoliant and Shelob are incapable of changing form or appearance.

 

[halfbeast]

Spoiler

(she's bi)

 

[michaelius]

I personally don't mind, they're allowed to take liberties surely?

Yeah but if they created something new it would be much easier to accept unlike retconning established character.

 

[traveler]

Shelob taking a human form is a stretch but the kind I'd be fine with.

The more troublesome part is the idea that was stated in that previous thread- that Shelob and Gollum had this plan to ensure the ring got destroyed and that Frodo couldn't be trusted to do it. That is one hell of a misread and completely undermines the themes of Frodo's mercy saving him by placing him elsewhere. I'm not the type of Tolkien nerd to care as much about them taking liberties with presentation and adding new material, but destroying themes of the original work is something I have a problem with.

 

[m_dorian]

From Jonny->



Now you find me the text that says Ungoliant and Shelob are incapable of changing form or appearance.

Find me the text where Frodo is incapable of changing form and/or appearance?

There is none because in the books hobbits remain hobbits and spiders remain spiders.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Both the interviewer and the interviewee don't seem to know what the heck they're talking about. Shelob a 'dwmon' and 'demigod', WTF?

 

[MoonFrog]

Speaking for myself, the only exposure I have to the game is whatever GAF says about it, and all of the discussion I've seen on here has been this issue and that insane commercial.

I consider myself lucky to not know what else they've been doing.

Same. I count myself blessed overall, cursed when these headlines pop up.

 

[Laughing Banana]

From Jonny->



Now you find me the text that says Ungoliant and Shelob are incapable of changing form or appearance.

That text clearly spoke about Ungoliant and not Shelob. Shelob is nothing more than a giant spider, an intelligent one, but nothing more than that.

To change her into a sexy lady (capable of fortune telling, no less) that spurned by Sauron is incredibly ridiculous.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Find me the text where Frodo is incapable of changing form and/or appearance?

Frodo becomes invisible all the time.

 

[Raptor]

They didnt made her sexy enough, havent seen her ass to determine that.

 

[tryagainlater]

I don't mind them doing stuff with the lore that is insane. Shame turning a spider into a sexy woman is simply just fucking boring.

 

[Mesoian]

This is literally some, "words and deeds" shit.

 

[Loxley]

It's sad seeing people blaming the Tolkien estate for "approving" this when they have fuck-all to do with any of it. Tolkien sold the multimedia rights for The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit to Saul Zaentz in the late 1960's because he desperately needed the money to pay for the medical bills of his dying wife Edith. Ever since, the Tolkien estate has had nothing to do with any films or games related to LOTR or The Hobbit, because, well, they don't have the rights anymore. The Saul Zaentz Company eventually set-up Middle-earth Enterprises as their avenue for distributing the film/game/etc rights (all of which eventually landed in New Line/WB's lap).

This isn't the result of the Tolkien estate selling out, it's a result of them being unable to protect the integrity of The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit in other mediums. So when Monolith says they worked with Middle-earth Enterprises to get approval for everything, that means practically nothing since they aren't in any way associated with the Tolkien estate.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

From Jonny->



Now you find me the text that says Ungoliant and Shelob are incapable of changing form or appearance.

The Book of Lost Tales isn't canon - it's a collection of earlier versions he wrote of the Silmarillion.

And you can't prove a negative. If I maintained that Bilbo could burp the alphabet, there's not much you could do to contest that. It doesn't work as an argument.

 

[LincolnTunnel]

Now you find me the text that says Ungoliant and Shelob are incapable of changing form or appearance.

The closest thing Tolkien ever wrote concerning whether or not a creature like Ungoliant or Shelob could change their shape is:

"So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations"

which seems to imply like Morgoth, creatures could be rendered unable to change forms due to their evil actions. This is primarily concerning creatures like Sauron or the Balrogs though, who were Maiar bound to physical forms. Ungoliant is described as something distinct from the Ainur, though there aren't really any details given as to how the limitations the Ainur have to deal with correlate to whatever Ungoliant is. Shelob is never described as having the ability to changer her shape though. I'm not 100% Ungoliant ever is either, so the whole issue is some Russel's Teapot bullshit.

 

[Mr Git]

I understood from the books that Shelob wasn’t literally a giant spider

read: a combination of asspull and the lightest glance at a wiki.

They keep spinning this tale of some sort of inventive interpretation of the literature, and it's just as fucking galling as it was a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Some Nobody]

GC: I think it’s fair to say that Tolkien would not like this game.

BR: [laughs]

GC: But then I suspect he’d hate all video games. I bet Christopher Tolkien does too.

Tolkien wouldn't even like the films. Chris certainly didn't. And if you want to match the text, any game that's full of action wouldn't be true to the spirit of LotR unless it was either a recreation of some of the bigger battles, or ended in failure for all involved. People rarely accomplished much of anything until Valar or Maiar were involved.

If you really want LotR game that remains true to life, it'd probably be some sort of Telltale title. In short:

I always felt they were kinda of kneecapped by the Tolken IP.

 

[Brad Grenz]

The Book of Lost Tales isn't canon - it's a collection of earlier versions he wrote of the Silmarillion

The Silmarillion isn't canon either, it's unfinished and was published posthumously by the estate just like the lost tales. The only canon works are The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

And you can't prove a negative. If I maintained that Bilbo could burp the alphabet, there's not much you could do to contest that. It doesn't work as an argument.

And yet that's exactly what you are trying to claim, that Shelob can't do something.

 

[Windam]

Tolkien never wrote anything to suggest Ungoliant or her daughters could change form into alternate versions of Stoya. They were instead described as monstrous spiders. Shelob was never Middle-earth's Stoya, and the fact that the director of the game thinks she could be because Middle-earth Enterprises okayed it just proves he's pulling this from his ass. Middle-earth Enterprises has as much say in Tolkien's lore as any of us outside of the Tolkien Estate do, which is none. It is both insane and unjustified, but I guess the game needed some sex appeal to go along with the hip-hop Orcs trailer and the Hobbit present boxes (which LotRO does better).

The Book of Lost Tales isn't canon - it's a collection of earlier versions he wrote of the Silmarillion.

Tolkien never "wrote" the Silmarillion. Christopher combed through his father's various notes and drafts of his different legends and managed to piece together a workable story that was in-line with what was written in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

The Silmarillion isn't canon either, it's unfinished and was published posthumously by the estate just like the lost tales. The only canon works are The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.



And yet that's exactly what you are trying to claim, that Shelob can't do something.

Lol. Alright it's clear that I'm getting trolled.

Tolkien never "wrote" the Silmarillion. Christopher combed through his father's various notes and drafts of his different legends and managed to piece together a workable story that was in-line with what was written in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

I know. I didn't say anything that contradicts that.

 

[m_dorian]

Frodo becomes invisible all the time.

While keeping his nature.

 

[Maximo]

They didnt made her sexy enough, havent seen her ass to determine that.

Don't worry Monoloth made Shelob able to shapeshift surely she can shapeshift dat ass to something fine...

 

[dubq]

Shelob is literally a spider. There's no other way to depict what she is. It's spider.

Shelob is literally described as "an 'evil thing' in spider form" in the Two Towers "Shelob's Lair" chapter. She is also the child of Ungoliant who was an evil spirit that also took a spider form. If Ungoliant was a Maiar with shape shifting abilities, then her children would have them as well.