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[LiquidSolid]

Shelob and her siblings were literally called the Spiders of Nan Dungortheb but she totally wasn't a spider, guys! Honest!

The enormous leaps of logic you have to take to believe the stupid shit coming out of Monolith is staggering. That there are some who actually buy it is hilarious.

 

[L Thammy]

I hope Gandalf comes back in the game too and this time he's a sexy woman. There's nothing in the books that says he can't, and in fact changing forms is far more justified for a Maia like Gandalf. Therefore sexy Gandalfko is true to Tolkien and you can't prove it isn't.

Who is the tsundere in LOTR?

The tsundere is mine.

 

[Gunblade47]

I hope Gandalf comes back in the game too and this time he's a sexy woman. There's nothing in the books that says he can't, and in fact changing forms is far more justified for a Maia like Gandalf. Therefore sexy Gandalfko is true to Tolkien and you can't prove it isn't.

Sounds like some DLC is in order!

Pretty dumb of them if I'm honest. My interest in this game has plummeted since it was previewed at E3 so a massive congrats to them on that end.

 

[m_dorian]

Who says spiders can't use rings? And for all we know Shelob remains in spider form and the sexy woman is just a glamor used to deceive.



Ungoliant is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. But I never said that they shouldn't be considered, only that your attempt to discredit one non-canon source in favor of another was absurd.



Your entire argument is "hey, spiders can't do that". It is LITERALLY an attempt to prove a negative. Monolith's entire argument is, "Middle-earth is a vast, mysterious, magical place and we've used Tolkien's preference for not strictly defining things as an opportunity to explore new capabilities for established characters." Why shouldn't the offspring of an ancient evil or immense power have the ability to change shape or project illusions? "But, but, but... Spider!" Isn't a counter argument. It's being pedantic.

If Tolkien wanted to depict a shapeshifting evil being he would have done so. He was not used to put things there without using or explaining them.
He needed an evil beast for his purpose and he chose to use a spider, SPIDER. Monolith's argument is a bad fanfic interpretation at best just to excuse they needed some more tits in their "game".

 

[Falchion]

I can see why people aren't happy with the change but I'm not too worried about it. They play fast and loose which is fine in a spinoff game series.

 

[tuxfool]

I can see why people aren't happy with the change but I'm not too worried about it. They play fast and loose which is fine in a spinoff game series.

Why do they keep insisting that what they're doing is canon?

 

[LiquidSword]

Once you all recognize the secret reason for sexy Shelob, you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

and why nobody has created a Shadow Of Mordor clone yet…

If I had to guess people would want to clone a good game and not bad clone of over good games.

 

[Servbot24]

Having the player try to communicate with Shelob the spider could have been really interesting and cool.

Having the player communicate with a sexy lady in a spider-themed Haloween costume is yawn-inducing

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Once you all recognize the secret reason for sexy Shelob, you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds.

The sad thing is, we have been given the in-story reason already, and it kinda gives away the implicit motive behind the scenes as well. The idea that she became a spider because of how she was spurned by Sauron, and takes upon the form of a woman as a means of manipulating Talion, roots her to male characters because she's evil and female, therefore she must be some kind of femme fatale. It's so decidedly... generic.

The sad thing is, there's other interviews that posit her more in the position of opposition to the likes of Galadriel, which while still slightly headscratching, is still honestly a more interesting angle to look at things.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Your entire argument is "hey, spiders can't do that". It is LITERALLY an attempt to prove a negative. Monolith's entire argument is, "Middle-earth is a vast, mysterious, magical place and we've used Tolkien's preference for not strictly defining things as an opportunity to explore new capabilities for established characters." Why shouldn't the offspring of an ancient evil or immense power have the ability to change shape or project illusions? "But, but, but... Spider!" Isn't a counter argument. It's being pedantic.

You have completely misunderstood the issue with proving a negative. It's not that you can't, and therefore anything goes. It's that you can't, and therefore it's the person with the claim who has the burden of proof.

In this case, you and Monolith claim that the lore supports Shelob being a shapeshifter. As that is not written anywhere in the lore that people have been able to dig up, your claim is unproven, and can be disregarded without any evidence.

Read this for more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

If this wasn't the way we did things, you'd have to assume that anything is true based simply on the fact that you can't disprove it.

Santa's workshop is in the middle of the sun, and its heat actually comes from his factory?
Can't disprove it, have to assume that it's true.

Donald Trump is actually bald, and that thing on his hair is an alien using mind control to turn humanity on itself?
Can't disprove it, have to assume that it's true.

It's actually not an alien, but a wig he was given by Kim Jong-un, which contains a secret radio he uses to communicate with Pyongyang?
Can't disprove it, have to assume that it's true.

With that logic, you can never reach any conclusions about anything. You have to have a certain standard for the evidence it takes for you to accept a claim, not for what it takes before you disregard it.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Except we aren't talking about facts. We're talking about fiction that expands on an existing lore. Monolith believes Shelob's supernatural heritage gives them creative license here. You can disagree but it's impossible to prove they are wrong as there is simply no text that actually contradicts their extension.

 

[Freshmaker]

Except we aren't talking about facts. We're talking about fiction that expands on an existing lore. Monolith believes Shelob's supernatural heritage gives them creative license here. You can disagree but it's impossible to prove they are wrong as there is simply no text that actually contradicts their extension.

Other than that there's no evidence it's possible except when people deliberately misinterpret the giant spider's description.

 

[timetokill]

Wow, I've really been out of the loop on this game. Shelob's a porn star and there's rap orcs in this?

 

[WalshyB]

Once you all recognize the secret reason for sexy Shelob, you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds.

Farewell sausage

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

Ungoliant is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. But I never said that they shouldn't be considered, only that your attempt to discredit one non-canon source in favor of another was absurd.

Your entire argument is "hey, spiders can't do that". It is LITERALLY an attempt to prove a negative. Monolith's entire argument is, "Middle-earth is a vast, mysterious, magical place and we've used Tolkien's preference for not strictly defining things as an opportunity to explore new capabilities for established characters." Why shouldn't the offspring of an ancient evil or immense power have the ability to change shape or project illusions? "But, but, but... Spider!" Isn't a counter argument. It's being pedantic.

Holy hell, we're still on this?

Ungoliant is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. And? What about her role in the Lord of the Rings supports Monolift's claims? Does the Lord of the Rings talk about her in a way that gives textual support for their choices?

When did I attempt to discredit one non-canon source over another? As far as I can see, you're the one who assumed I was doing that.

Also, you need to read up on the burden of proof.

I admire your willingness to be open to creative choices and the way you're willing to follow Monolift down the path they're proposing. I think that's great. Really. If you end up playing this game, I hope you enjoy it and the choices they made in making it. My argument was only ever that Monolift states that the justifications they've given are in line with the books, and I don't think that they are. If you want to defend them in that specific argument, you need to provide textual evidence, which you have not done to my satisfaction. Instead you have been aggressive and accused me of being "precious and pedantic" with the text, even though this thread is full of people declaring Monolift's statement as bs just like me. If you're upset about me believing you are a troll, forgive me. If you read back through our respective posts, hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from with that remark - you've been aggressive with me right from the start, and have given no facts to support the argument that she could in fact transform into a sexy lady. Your responses to others follow a similar pattern of aggression and/or asking others to prove things can't happen aka asking them to prove a negative:

While in possession of a Ring of Power and, coincidentally, Shelob is also shown in possesion of one in the trailers... HMMMMMM.

Who says spiders can't use rings? And for all we know Shelob remains in spider form and the sexy woman is just a glamor used to deceive.

Except we aren't talking about facts. We're talking about fiction that expands on an existing lore. Monolith believes Shelob's supernatural heritage gives them creative license here. You can disagree but it's impossible to prove they are wrong as there is simply no text that actually contradicts their extension.

I don't think I'd be alone in assuming I was dealing with a troll.

At any rate, since you've given no evidence and have on at least one occasion tried to change the argument to something else to try and get a "win," I'm going to go ahead and assume that we've reached the end of this. If you reply with more variations on what we've already seen, I'm not going to respond. Enjoy the game if you play it, and best of luck to you.

 

[Lanrutcon]

"Middle-earth is a vast, mysterious, magical place and tits sell. Oh, and we like money. We really, really like money."

 

[Laughing Banana]

"It's not there in the texts and so they can do whatever they want" is such a bizarre defense of a critique towards character mischaracterization and complete bastardization of source material.

It completely disregards and destroys world-building, especially in a meticulously crafted universe such as Lord of the Rings.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

I don't mind liberties at all. Stray from the source material? Sometimes, that can be great.

This, no matter how it is explained and even as it is currently explained by game developers and gameplay footage, is not good. It seems like taking a lame shortcut. That is just my opinion though.

 

[Stranya]

Holy hell, we're still on this?

Ungoliant is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings. And? What about her role in the Lord of the Rings supports Monolift's claims? Does the Lord of the Rings talk about her in a way that gives textual support for their choices?

When did I attempt to discredit one non-canon source over another? As far as I can see, you're the one who assumed I was doing that.

Also, you need to read up on the burden of proof.

I admire your willingness to be open to creative choices and the way you're willing to follow Monolift down the path they're proposing. I think that's great. Really. If you end up playing this game, I hope you enjoy it and the choices they made in making it. My argument was only ever that Monolift states that the justifications they've given are in line with the books, and I don't think that they are. If you want to defend them in that specific argument, you need to provide textual evidence, which you have not done to my satisfaction. Instead you have been aggressive and accused me of being "precious and pedantic" with the text, even though this thread is full of people declaring Monolift's statement as bs just like me. If you're upset about me believing you are a troll, forgive me. If you read back through our respective posts, hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from with that remark - you've been aggressive with me right from the start, and have given no facts to support the argument that she could in fact transform into a sexy lady. Your responses to others follow a similar pattern of aggression and/or asking others to prove things can't happen aka asking them to prove a negative:








I don't think I'd be alone in assuming I was dealing with a troll.

At any rate, since you've given no evidence and have on at least one occasion tried to change the argument to something else to try and get a "win," I'm going to go ahead and assume that we've reached the end of this. If you reply with more variations on what we've already seen, I'm not going to respond. Enjoy the game if you play it, and best of luck to you.

I applaud your patience. It's impossible to prove Shelob can't change form (because there is no statement about this in the lore either way), so the burden of proof is on those who assert such a claim, such as Monolith, and they have in no way met that burden. The reason they've failed is because the only natural and reasonable conclusion from the books' portrayal of Shelob as a giant fucking spider is that she's a giant fucking spider.

 

[Brad Grenz]

When did I attempt to discredit one non-canon source over another? As far as I can see, you're the one who assumed I was doing that.

When you dismissed a quote from the Lost Tales describing Ungoliant nature saying it was negated by the Silmarillion.

My argument was only ever that Monolift states that the justifications they've given are in line with the books, and I don't think that they are. If you want to defend them in that specific argument, you need to provide textual evidence, which you have not done to my satisfaction.

No, your argument was literally:

Incorrect. Shelob is indeed literally a giant spider, and I've never heard of any argument saying she isn't until now. She isn't a Maia like a Balrog is, which is the closest Tolkien gets to the concept of a "demon." She was born from a giant spider and gives birth to other giant spiders. She's literally a giant spider.

It's possible that the original Ungoliant is the manifestation of something like the concept of Night or Darkness (I indeed subscribe to this theory, mainly because there's a lot of characters that can be explained in this way that otherwise seem random, like the stone giants). And maybe you could say the same of her descendants. Either way they would still be literally giant spiders. But the idea that she's a demigod (which doesn't even make any fucking sense in the Tolkien universe, since she'd have to be a Maia to qualify for a title like that, and she is certainly not) or took that form like she originally was something else is pure fanfiction supported by absolutely nothing.

Ignoring the hairsplitting over the term "demigod", you asserted they were incorrect and decided to substitute your interpretation as authoritative. Which is a big pet peeve of mine. Monolith can point to a shape changing lineage for Shelob. The quotes have been produced in this thread. You may disagree that this constitutes sufficient justification for the choices they are making with the character, but that's not the same as it being "supported by absolutely nothing."

 

[nephilimdj]

I know fans are mad, but she can redeem herself by bringing back ratbag with her sexy spider magic shit

 

[7Th]

Who is the tsundere in LOTR?

The tsundere is mine.

The movie adaptation of Gimli was definitely tsundere for Legolas.

 

[WheelHoss1]

The movie adaptation of Gimli was definitely tsundere for Legolas.

It's in the book, too

They always ride the same horse with Gimli behind

But when Gimli goes with Gandalf he goes in front. Gandie ain't no Bottom, boys