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[jaosobno]

The 2013 one is likely, right? Assuming they started to work on the console by then that is.


Edit: hey! You changed it lol

Yeah, I changed it, that was an old pic.

But the year of the hardware is not that relevant. As far as I know, devs always work on "target hardware" first before getting their hands on the alpha devkits.

Final devkits are often shipped a few months before console's release date (at least this was the case with PS4/XO).

K12 is not done yet. It's on the backburner so that Zen can take AMD out of the recession.

Yeah, I know, but AFAIK, K12 has 2016. ETA. They might as well use it for NX (if Nintendo wants that of course). The main problem is that we have no idea what NX is. Iwata (RIP) mentioned that Nintendo plans to unify its development teams and that a single hardware configuration has to please different markets. That points to some kind of hybrid or a handheld with streaming ability. If we are talking about that kind of device, they will definitely not be using Zen cores or something similar. K12+GCN cores on 14nm sounds like a prime candidate.

EDIT: just saw that K12 was pushed to 2017. It that's the case, then it will not be ready for use in NX.

 

[Terrell]

So, if AMD is the vendor of choice, what chance is there for NX to be a handheld?

At first, it looks like they clearly saw what PS4 and XO did and are now going down the same road. On the other hand, if this is another "me too" console, what is the point?

We already have 3 platforms with practically identical libraries (aside from a few notable exclusives) - PC, PS4 and XO. What is the point of having fourth console that plays the same games (+Nintendo exclusives) as those 3?

They have to do something to differentiate themselves from PC/PS4/XO trinity, because, with lacking 3rd party support, they can't possibly hope to compete on the same grounds.

Personally, I'm hoping for a handheld or at least a hybrid. AMD did dabble in ARM/x86 combo (Project Skybridge), but has since abandoned the concept. Perhaps they plan to resurrect it for Nintendo (I doubt it, but who knows)?

Similar specs on the box =/= a "me too" console. There are ways to differentiate outside of hardware, and even within the hardware space, there are means to differentiate that don't cost a king's ransom, and it's usually those small differentiations that become long-term industry standards (see: true analog controls, pressure-sensitive buttons, rumble feedback, etc.)

And looking at how the Wii U has fared, what is the point of differentiation at the expense of 3rd-party support and widespread appeal? You're not getting any meaningful 3rd-party support back under any circumstances without spec parity, end of discussion.

And no, a hybrid has been ruled out by Iwata on multiple occasions, dating as far back as January 2013. Anyone repeating that fantasy hasn't been paying attention.

Iwata (RIP) mentioned that Nintendo plans to unify its development teams and that a single hardware configuration has to please different markets. That points to some kind of hybrid or a handheld with streaming ability. If we are talking about that kind of device, they will definitely not be using Zen cores or something similar. K12+GCN cores on 14nm sounds like a prime candidate.

Unifying all their development teams is something they've done, but pleasing different markets with the same configuration =/= hybrid.

This damn hybrid myth needs to die already.

 

[Nostremitus]

Technology really hasn't advanced though. Assuming an APU model for cost efficiency, both Xbox and PS4 are at the top end of die sizes that would be commercially viable to sell at a mass market price. Process nodes still haven't come down yet either. Nintendo wouldn't be able to build something that is notably faster than PS4 without going to a discrete graphics solution and that is getting expensive.

HBM isn't a factor IMO for two reasons
1) too early and too expensive right now. Maybe that can be overcome depending how fast the process can mature. But isn't it only Hynix doing this right now? If production capacity is limited then AMD are likely to want that capacity for their high margin GPUs

2) speed. If you have an APU with approximately PS4 level performance (18CUs), targeting 1080p TV resolution, is there really a noticeable gain in performance to go with the bandwidth improvements from HBM, which seems to be better suited to higher end GPUs and 1440p-4k resolutions.

I think Nintendo is more likely to stick to a tried and tested ed/esram approach

Sorry, missed this earlier. Obviously this is all speculation.

AMD's smaller process nodes are 2016, so is(presumeably) the NX(or the home console could be 2017...). If Nintendo wanted to, they could probably get that node. AMD were supposed to launch it this year, but held off. They should be more or less finished with development and able to shop the designs built on that node around.
They could totally go with the ED/ESRAM approach, but

1)Nintendo tend to spend extra on their RAM. Having the stacked HBM would decrease
TDP and provide a memory solution with low latency/high bandwidth. By the time the NX goes to production AMD should be moving on towards HBM2.0 and production should be ramped up. Selling HBM1.0 access to Nintendo would be a solid way to make a return on the R&D investment AMD provided in the creation of HBM.

2)Speed HBM is able to reach those speeds without needing excessive amounts of GDDR5 RAM. So, having 2GB of HBM could provided high enough bandwidth for 1080p and would be fine when paired with fast DDR4 for things that don't need as low latency or high bandwidth.

They could totally stick to the tried and true, but I hope they don't place themselves in the same bed that Microsoft made when designing the Xbox One.




Whether Hynix is capable of meeting that demand remains in question.

 

[lwilliams3]

For this hybrid idea: there would be issues making a portable device that is even as strong as the Wii U at a reasonable price.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

For this hybrid idea: there would be issues making a portable device that is even as strong as the Wii U at a reasonable price.

...and if you start looking at some kind of "dock" to boost it as a home device - as a number of proponents of the "hybrid" idea suggest - you're talking about an increase in complexity and price too.

 

[jaosobno]

Unifying all their development teams is something they've done, but pleasing different markets with the same configuration =/= hybrid.

This damn hybrid myth needs to die already.

I should clarify that hybrid could mean a handheld with streaming capabilities and bluetooth controller support.

For example, you can take a smartphone with WiFi Direct support and stream content (video, pictures, etc.) to a modern smart TV. You can also hook up a controller to it and use it to control games that support such a feature. We still call such a device smartphone and not a hybrid.

If Nintendo produced such a handheld, it would still be a handheld device. "Hybrid", at least for me, is just a feature expansion of a core device, not necessarily a power-up.

For example, Nintendo could sell "NX Core" which is just a handheld. Along with it they could sell something like "NX Expansion Pack" which includes charging/HDMI dock and a controller. I know that this is perhaps far fetched, but it's also perfectly simple and doable.

"Power dock" - a device that would somehow boost processing abilities would probably take years to produce and if AMD has been chosen as a vendor recently and NX is a 2016. product, they are using something that is more or less ready (with some small customization, of course).

 

[BronzeWolf]

The problem with Hybrid Theory is that the Console and Handheld have to be able to hold themselves in their respective markets. For Nintendo to release adapters or docking technology for bringing the handheld to the TV, that would be murk the waters of the console version especially if the devices will share libraries. I think Shared OS theory is a more elegant way to go about it.

 

[Ushojax]

For this hybrid idea: there would be issues making a portable device that is even as strong as the Wii U at a reasonable price.

It's not going to be a hybrid, that just isn't feasible.

Iwata told us they want multiple form factors sharing an architecture. There will be an NX handheld and an NX console, with the majority of the library shared between them and scaled to the capabilities of the respective hardware forms.

 

[Toski]

Technology really hasn't advanced though. Assuming an APU model for cost efficiency, both Xbox and PS4 are at the top end of die sizes that would be commercially viable to sell at a mass market price. Process nodes still haven't come down yet either. Nintendo wouldn't be able to build something that is notably faster than PS4 without going to a discrete graphics solution and that is getting expensive.

HBM isn't a factor IMO for two reasons
1) too early and too expensive right now. Maybe that can be overcome depending how fast the process can mature. But isn't it only Hynix doing this right now? If production capacity is limited then AMD are likely to want that capacity for their high margin GPUs

2) speed. If you have an APU with approximately PS4 level performance (18CUs), targeting 1080p TV resolution, is there really a noticeable gain in performance to go with the bandwidth improvements from HBM, which seems to be better suited to higher end GPUs and 1440p-4k resolutions.

I think Nintendo is more likely to stick to a tried and tested ed/esram approach

Nintendo could go for GCN 1.2 which will give them some better performance over PS4/X1 at the same die size or match them at a smaller die. If Nintendo waits for 16/14 nm they'll probably use GCN 2.0 in both the console and the handheld.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

As an aside, what fab were the Vita's chips made on at launch/currently at?

 

[Terrell]

It's not going to be a hybrid, that just isn't feasible.

Iwata told us they want multiple form factors sharing an architecture. There will be an NX handheld and an NX console, with the majority of the library shared between them and scaled to the capabilities of the respective hardware forms.

Exactly. Anyone who insists on a hybrid is literally doing so in spite of everything spoken about it from the late Mr. Iwata's mouth, as though him saying outright that a hybrid device was not considered is somehow an irrelevance.

I should clarify that hybrid could mean a handheld with streaming capabilities and bluetooth controller support.

You don't need to clarify what you mean. It's still a hybrid, and it's STILL not going to happen, no matter how viable you think that is. Let that dream fade into oblivion and never speak of it again.

 

[E-phonk]

The hybrid idea also doesn't make sense from a business pov (besides a technological one).
If the hybrid fails, nintendo will have nothing to fall back on. In case of a unified OS they have their handheld and console version, but can add a VR version later if the market would go that way. Or a nx "xl" tablet like version. (And they could still to the streaming some people talk about here as an add-on).

The one architecture-multiple devices is imo the best idea i've heard coming from nintendo since the DS/Wii. It's potential imo is enormous(*), they just have to make sure the execution is right for it to work.

(*) not in sales persé but as a viable strategy for a company like nintendo to stay relevant in two very competing (and declining) markets at the same time, with uncertain third party support and the mobile evolution.

 

[nubbe]

It would be kinda neat if they used larger cartridges for NX now when IC storage is eclipsing bluray

They could add support chips on the carts and make things even more awesome in the future

HyperFX!!!!!

 

[10k]

People claiming Sakurai is going to retire don't understand his condition. One way or another, calcific tendonitis is a highly treatable condition, but it requires that you take time to recover from it post-treatment or post-surgery with reduced motion in the affected areas. So long as he has an assistant, he can keep on trucking until he fully recovers.

Agreed. It's not like he needs to do the coding himself. It's the testing of balance and such where he needs to lessen.

 

[Rodin]

A possibly is for the NX portable to use A53s while the console to use A57s. What vendors do you consider for Nintendo to use for the GPU?

I was thinking about A53 as well, but Fourth Storm reminded me that the lack of out of order executions could be a problem. So maybe a downclocked A57 (in the 1-1.2GHZ range) would be a better fit.

K12 is not done yet. It's on the backburner so that Zen can take AMD out of the recession.

Which CPU architecture you see them using as a base for this semi-custom design?

 

[jroc74]

It's not going to be a hybrid, that just isn't feasible.

Iwata told us they want multiple form factors sharing an architecture. There will be an NX handheld and an NX console, with the majority of the library shared between them and scaled to the capabilities of the respective hardware forms.

Reading that Iwata quote many pages back...yea it isnt gonna be a hybrid.

More than 2 form factors....like brothers in a family of systems...

I think its gonna use ARM. ARM is used in many a family right now: WP, Win Mo 10, BB, Android, iOS...all with many form factors.

What other form factors is there besides home console and handheld? I see Nintendo having a mobile store front like those OS's I mentioned, like Amazon does, etc. Sony tried it, just didnt work out.

I remember back around 2010 there was an iOS game that looked so good. Infinity Blade. I believe that was the beginning of higher quality mobile games.

Its gonna be funny if Nintendo takes the idea Sony had with the Vita and make it work. A more powerful handheld running high quality games. It would be ironic seeing how they both are doing with home consoles.

Like Sony and Cross Buy. 1 game for 3 systems. That they havent failed at. I wonder how the games are developed. Because they all dont share the same architecture.

 

[LewieP]

Nintendo have specifically said that they are not making a "hybrid" system. Unless you think Nintendo are lying for some reason, and have some idea for a piece of hardware that breaks current physical, economical and technical realities, there is no way they could ship a viable hybrid system that isn't in at least some ways massively compromised.

People need to stop theorising about such nonsense.

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

What other form factors is there besides home console and handheld?

Tablet
Micro - console
Laptop
Head Mounted Display
Projector

Possibly other forms we haven't thought of. But yeah, handheld and console will come first.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Nintendo have specifically said that they are not making a "hybrid" system. Unless you think Nintendo are lying for some reason, and have some idea for a piece of hardware that breaks current physical, economical and technical realities, there is no way they could ship a viable hybrid system that isn't in at least some ways massively compromised.

People need to stop theorising about such nonsense.

Funnily, that's the argument I've seen put forward (in rough terms): "Nintendo said they wouldn't ever go mobile and now they are! Iwata never tells the truth!"

That disregards the point that plans do change - particularly with regard to a fast-moving market like videogames/mobile - and that there are more concrete moves from Nintendo that point to some kind of unification, rather than just words from Iwata at investor meetings.

What other form factors is there besides home console and handheld?

Standard handheld with physical inputs, standard high-end home console, micro handheld with touch-only, micro-console for home use...

 

[Pokemaniac]

Reading that Iwata quote many pages back...yea it isnt gonna be a hybrid.

More than 2 form factors....like brothers in a family of systems...

I think its gonna use ARM. ARM is used in many a family right now: WP, Win Mo 10, BB, Android, iOS...all with many form factors.

What other form factors is there besides home console and handheld? I see Nintendo having a mobile store front like those OS's I mentioned, like Amazon does, etc. Sony tried it, just didnt work out.

I remember back around 2010 there was an iOS game that looked so good. Infinity Blade. I believe that was the beginning of higher quality mobile games.

Its gonna be funny if Nintendo takes the idea Sony had with the Vita and make it work. A more powerful handheld running high quality games. It would be ironic seeing how they both are doing with home consoles.

Like Sony and Cross Buy. 1 game for 3 systems. That they havent failed at. I wonder how the games are developed. Because they all dont share the same architecture.

I don't think mobile will be the third form factor. Or, to be more specific, all comments from Nintendo on their mobile strategy suggest that the only games they'll release on mobile are the ones they'll build explicitly for mobile. I wouldn't be surprised to see their mobile games on their dedicated hardware as well, but I think it's safe to say that the opposite won't happen.

 

[Neoxon]

Funnily, that's the argument I've seen put forward (in rough terms): "Nintendo said they wouldn't ever go mobile and now they are! Iwata never tells the truth!"

That disregards the point that plans do change - particularly with regard to a fast-moving market like videogames/mobile - and that there are more concrete moves from Nintendo that point to some kind of unification, rather than just words from Iwata at investor meetings.

Iwata specifically said that they won't go mobile to replace their dedicated game systems.

 

[jroc74]

I don't think mobile will be the third form factor. Or, to be more specific, all comments from Nintendo on their mobile strategy suggest that the only games they'll release on mobile are the ones they'll build explicitly for mobile. I wouldn't be surprised to see their mobile games on their dedicated hardwareas well, but I think it's safe to say that the opposite won't happen.

By default mobile could be already in the family because of what they are about do with mobile. If NX is unifying everything I think that includes mobile. Thats why I also mentioned cross buy. Yea I agree with the bolded. Sony never really did that either, they did have their mobile games available for Vita.

Nintendo just have to use capacitive screens for their handheld IMO.

 

[Demon Lizardman]

Will this mean the handheld and home console versions will have little to no difference in terms of power with the home console one being slightly more powerful?

 

[Terrell]

Funnily, that's the argument I've seen put forward (in rough terms): "Nintendo said they wouldn't ever go mobile and now they are! Iwata never tells the truth!"

That disregards the point that plans do change - particularly with regard to a fast-moving market like videogames/mobile - and that there are more concrete moves from Nintendo that point to some kind of unification, rather than just words from Iwata at investor meetings.

They're words he repeated year after year since 2013. And his mobile stance, if you actually read what he said instead of reading the conclusion-jumping that people made, was that mobile was not being considered to replace their core business but something they were investigating with "no current action plans". That's not the "no" people made it out to be.

If he had given a flat-out "no" answer at an investment meeting, he would have been accused of deliberately misinforming shareholders so they would dump their stock for Nintendo to purchase at a lower price, only to have it inflate when the DeNA partnership was announced. You know, a CRIME.

People need to actually read the presentations and Q&As rather than just the Cliff Notes versions that are propagated on the internet before they make such statements.

 

[fredrancour]

Will this mean the handheld and home console versions will have little to no difference in terms of power with the home console one being slightly more powerful?

That would really weaken the efficacy of the "variety of form factors" approach. I sure hope not for their sakes. If they hold back the home console chipset for the sake of efficient power usage again they will probably create another Wii u situation where the price of the chip is inflated by a stat that is invisible to nearly all customers. On the other hand, battery life means that's a thing that consumers actually see in a handheld. Things like that seem to be such fundamental differences to me that if the jumps between form factors are that narrow, I expect one sector to fail. There really does need to be a perceived generational difference between the handheld and console form factors or they will lose the opportunity to regain many people.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

They're words he repeated year after year since 2013. And his mobile stance, if you actually read what he said instead of reading the conclusion-jumping that people made, was that mobile was not being considered to replace their core business but something they were investigating with "no current action plans". That's not the "no" people made it out to be.

Oh, I know that - I'm just pointing out the argument I've seen made elsewhere to prop up the "hybrid" idea (or whatever other pet idea they think Nintendo should be putting into action).

People need to actually read the presentations and Q&As rather than just the Cliff Notes versions that are propagated on the internet before they make such statements.

Reading the presentations & Q&As BEFORE sounding off online? Now you're just being silly... ;-)

 

[Graphics Horse]

Will this mean the handheld and home console versions will have little to no difference in terms of power with the home console one being slightly more powerful?

I would expect 4 times or more, so it can deal with higher pixel count and split screen modes which wouldn't need to be there on the mobile version.


Wipeout 2048 crossplay mode with PS3 could be a good example of what they could achieve, although that has very scaled back visuals on vita compared to ps3 and half the framerate, but still looks good and that's on two completely different architectures.

 

[mrklaw]

Nintendo could go for GCN 1.2 which will give them some better performance over PS4/X1 at the same die size or match them at a smaller die. If Nintendo waits for 16/14 nm they'll probably use GCN 2.0 in both the console and the handheld.

there are a lot of people in this thread hoping nintendo will be first to market with new process nodes and embedding advanced GCN1.2/2.0 into APUs before anyone else. Which would be fantastic but they have absolutely no history of doing. They have shown they aren't interested in that space.

 

[E-phonk]

Will this mean the handheld and home console versions will have little to no difference in terms of power with the home console one being slightly more powerful?

For example (figures coming out of my *** - just as an example)
Handheld has 540p, 1gb ram, 2-4 x 1.3 ghz cores for example.
Console can have 4gb ram, full HD, and 6 x 1.7 ghz cores + some form of harddisc.

The console has better specs, but the fact that the handheld is running at a sub-hd resolution makes them able to run +/- the same games. Maybe the handheld can't run all games, but that doesn't matter as long as it can play 70% of the same games.

So there will still be room for console exclusives (or handheld exclusives) - but nintendo can release certain games like yoshi's dreamworld, fire emblem, paper mario, mario kart 9, smash bros and animal crossing running on both.
But for example Zelda NX could potentially still be console exclusive, and Pokemon can still be a handheld game with no console release. The handheld might also have a touchscreen (probable) and the home console might not, thus also making some games exclusive.

 

[Fourth Storm]

As an aside, what fab were the Vita's chips made on at launch/currently at?

Vita uses a fairly sophisticated 2.5D stacking technique for its RAM and SoC, all fabbed by Samsung, I believe.

 

[blu]

Which CPU architecture you see them using as a base for this semi-custom design?

Home: A57 (90% prob) or A72 (arguably the better design for 28nm, but it might be just a tad too fresh for this deal).
Handheld: A53 (75%) or A15/A17 (just because).

 

[Fourth Storm]

Home: A57 (90% prob) or A72 (arguably the better design for 28nm, but it might be just a tad too fresh for this deal).
Handheld: A53 (75%) or A15/A17 (just because).

Do you think that the A53 being in-order might negatively affect any Wii U code they might port over?

I agree that the A53 is a candidate. Compatible w the A57 and very small/low power. Plus, still a massive bump in performance over 3DS.

Btw, wasn't that roadmap a fake? AMD didn't reveal any plans for a 14nm APU in 2016 iirc.

 

[Terrell]

there are a lot of people in this thread hoping nintendo will be first to market with new process nodes and embedding advanced GCN1.2/2.0 into APUs before anyone else. Which would be fantastic but they have absolutely no history of doing. They have shown they aren't interested in that space.

For all the good that's done them in the past. And hey, if it ain't broke, don't fi.... oh, wait....

That being said, I don't disagree with your statement. We'll get a PS4 equivalent at most, but nothing above or beyond that, just more robustly designed with modern improvements than what was available to Sony at PS4's final design. So instead of a Jaguar core, we'll probably get a Puma or its closest ARM equivalent, but nothing fancy or exotic about it. Just a well-engineered parity reacher.

 

[Litri]

Plus, still a massive bump in performance over 3DS.

Comparatively, how much of an improvement would that be in a scale? I'm really curious since the instruction set has also matured a lot.

 

[blu]

Do you think that the A53 being in-order might negatively affect any Wii U code they might port over?

I agree that the A53 is a candidate. Compatible w the A57 and very small/low power. Plus, still a massive bump in performance over 3DS.

Btw, wasn't that roadmap a fake? AMD didn't reveal any plans for a 14nm APU in 2016 iirc.

A53 might under-perform per-clock compared to Espresso (actually, I expect it to, though I've never tried one, late-to-the-party linaro devkits and all), but I don't expect that to be a big deal on the handled NX. /shrug

 

[GhostTrick]

Comparatively, how much of an improvement would that be in a scale? I'm really curious since the instruction set has also matured a lot.

Faster than Vita. A lot more faster than 3DS.
I'd say 10 to 50% faster than Vita depending on situation and easily 10 times over 3DS.

A53 might under-perform per-clock compared to Espresso (actually, I expect it to, though I've never tried one, late-to-the-party linaro devkits and all), but I don't expect that to be a big deal on the handled NX. /shrug

Even though I don't like this, A53 is the most likely choice for them. Small cores, "decent" performances and low power consumption. And yes, it would be slower than Espresso, because of clock (I don't expect them to fully clock it) and because of performances in general.
Although, I think the wisest choice would be 2xA57 cores and 2xA53 cores.

Home: A57 (90% prob) or A72 (arguably the better design for 28nm, but it might be just a tad too fresh for this deal).
Handheld: A53 (75%) or A15/A17 (just because).

Wouldn't A15 and A17 be a lot more faster than A53 ?
Also, I wouldn't cross off Cortex A7 for the handheld... yes... I said it, Cortex A7.

 

[Rodin]

Home: A57 (90% prob) or A72 (arguably the better design for 28nm, but it might be just a tad too fresh for this deal).
Handheld: A53 (75%) or A15/A17 (just because).

I was thinking the same but isn't the lack of out of order executions a problem with cross development? Also A57 should give them better performances even at a low clock (1-1.2GHZ). Overheating shound't be a problem either in a dual core 1.2GHZ setup for games, with another core or 2 A53 cores reserved to the OS. They could do the same with the home, 6 A57 cores and 2 A53 cores for the OS.

A53 might under-perform per-clock compared to Espresso (actually, I expect it to, though I've never tried one, late-to-the-party linaro devkits and all), but I don't expect that to be a big deal on the handled NX. /shrug

A57 should beat Espresso even at the same clock, right?

 

[Fourth Storm]

Comparatively, how much of an improvement would that be in a scale? I'm really curious since the instruction set has also matured a lot.

Since the ARM11 is so old, it will be tough to find a direct comparison. The first ARMv7-A core, the Cortex A8, supposedly executes 40% more instructions than the ARM11 at the same clock speed.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2798/5

The A9 shows 50% performance improvement over A8.

http://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a/cortex-a9.php

You can follow the rest of the trail over at the ARM website. The A7 is slightly lower performance than the A9, but much more energy efficient. The A53 boasts a 30% to 50% improvement over the A7. This is all at the same clock, so yeah, if they go w/ a quad core A53 at decent clocks, we would be looking at a considerable leap.

I was thinking the same but isn't the lack of out of order executions a problem with cross development? Also A57 should give them better performances even at a low clock (1-1.2GHZ). Overheating shound't be a problem either in a dual core 1.2GHZ setup for games, with another core or 2 A53 cores reserved to the OS. They could do the same with the home, 6 A57 cores and 2 A53 cores for the OS.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in-order vs out-of-order is something which mostly concerns your compiler. Basically, if they use the handheld as the baseline, they shouldn't run into any problems. I was thinking more about old Wii U code causing an issue, but that's nothing that can't be sorted out, especially considering the wizardry they are currently working w/ 3DS ports.

 

[disap.ed]

Btw, wasn't that roadmap a fake? AMD didn't reveal any plans for a 14nm APU in 2016 iirc.

If not fake, than at least outdated. K12 is definitely postboned to 2017, as are all Zen/K12 based APUs. Isn't Amur cancelled as well? Maybe Nintendo will get some kind of zombie design of this one, could fit pretty well (4 A57 cores @20nm, GCN graphics).
They can still use a K12 derivat later for the home console, an APU with 4 cores / 8 threads @ ~2GHz and 16 clusters / 1024 shader units would be pretty neat and reasonably small @14nm.

 

[Calamari41]

Not happening. The only real precedent for Nintendo doing anywhere close to this type of thing was the new play control line, and that didn't even include any of their major, once per generation games like Smash Bros or Mario Kart.

Nintendo doesn't operate this way, and shouldn't because it's very anti-consumer.

Also, I'm not sure why you'd want Nintendo to work on those games instead of Smash 5 and Mario Kart 9. They don't exactly have a lot of resources for working on projects like that.

Remember that they were fully planning on releasing Melee with online capabilities for the Wii in lieu of Brawl, until either Sakurai or Iwata (I forget which) basically said "nah, fuck it, let's do a sequel after all."

Mario Kart 8 Complete and Smash Bros 4 NX at or very near launch would be a positive for the system any way you slice it, especially considering the fact that very few people have played the games relative to the standard series sales.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Backwards compatibility is definitely going. Iwata confirmed it himself when he was talking about supporting Wii U and 3DS after NX launched, as he said that NX will be "starting from zero". It's a clean break from the previous two generations, though it's a shame it won't have the same luxury DS did of having two game slots and easy backwards compatibility with GBA.

Faster than Vita. A lot more faster than 3DS.
I'd say 10 to 50% faster than Vita depending on situation and easily 10 times over 3DS.

That's pretty disappointing when Apple's Cyclone Cores in the near-two year old iPhone 5s saw a 500-700% leap over Vita in single threaded benchmarks

(Vita = iPhone 4s): both utilise ARM Cortex A8 cores clocked at 800mhz. The Vita has 4 cores instead of the 2 (3 used for games, 1 for system) in the iPhone 4s, but this is a single threaded performance test.

An Apple SoC would be the perfect fit for a Nintendo handheld. The A8 would be such a great fit, since the CPU only throttles by 200mhz after 30 minutes compared with competing SoC flagship designs from Qualcomm et al, and GPU performance is excellent and sustained. Apple's Cyclone and Typhoon cores deliver very high performance per clock, which would be perfect for a thermally constrained handheld.

It's amazing that in some tests, the two-year old Apple A7 is a match or better than the quad core AMD Jaguar. The PS4 and Xbox One have 8 Jaguar Cores for loose comparison.

---

On a related note, the Apple A8 made its way into the $199 iPod Touch that's launching this month. Here are some early benchmarks. For comparison's sake, the "iPod Touch 5" in the below chart has 2 ARM Cortex A8 cores clocked at 800mhz. The PS Vita has 4 of those. There are more charts in the link in this paragraph, but the leap at the top end above Vita is phenomenal. Especially when you consider Vita launched with a best in class SoC, very similar to what shipped in the iPad 3.

Personally I still want to believe that Nintendo is partnering with Qualcomm. Something like a Snapdragon 615 in the NX handheld and the Snapdragon 820 in the NX console would be nice, and since the platform is likely going to be scalable, a "New NX" with a more up to date SoC a few years down the line would make sense. Or even better, working on their own SoC design that incorporates both a modern ARM and design and something from PowerVR. Series 6 has been around for two years now and offers a generational leap above Vita, I'd take that.

 

[Fourth Storm]

If not fake, than at least outdated. K12 is definitely postboned to 2017, as are all Zen/K12 based APUs. Isn't Amur cancelled as well? Maybe Nintendo will get some kind of zombie design of this one, could fit pretty well (4 A57 cores @20nm, GCN graphics).
They can still use a K12 derivat later for the home console, an APU with 4 cores / 8 threads @ ~2GHz and 16 clusters / 1024 shader units would be pretty neat and reasonably small @14nm.

It looks like it was a fake based on alot of well-educated speculation. The actual presentation on Investor Day was quite different.

I don't think Nintendo would use 20nm for anything when they've got 28nm around. Yields for 20nm were poor, the power savings over 28nm lackluster (die area savings non-existent), and fabs are already converting their 20nm equipment to 14nm/16nm, so it may not even be available.

Nintendo really just need a nice cheap and reliable SoC with performance "good enough" to look like they belong in 2016. The best way they get there next year is w/ 28nm and a combo of ARM/PowerVR. As I was speculating a few pages back, I'm not so sure that AMD got the win for both the console and the handheld. Console for sure, but there are reasons for Nintendo to have gone w/ a different vendor for the portable SoC...

 

[Pokemaniac]

Remember that they were fully planning on releasing Melee with online capabilities for the Wii in lieu of Brawl, until either Sakurai or Iwata (I forget which) basically said "nah, fuck it, let's do a sequel after all."

Mario Kart 8 Complete and Smash Bros 4 NX at or very near launch would be a positive for the system any way you slice it, especially considering the fact that very few people have played the games relative to the standard series sales.

That was a different situation. If that happened, then there wouldn't have been a new Smash Bros at all that generation, it would just have been the Melee rerelease. While I suppose it's possible the may eventually decide to go that route for Smash 5, I see no reason to believe Mario Kart 9 won't come on schedule.

I don't really see a realistic situation where Nintendo releases more than one Smash or Mario Kart per hardware generation. Rereleases like what you're proposing would take sales away from New entries in the series, and divide the online user base.

 

[Calamari41]

The hybrid idea also doesn't make sense from a business pov (besides a technological one).
If the hybrid fails, nintendo will have nothing to fall back on. In case of a unified OS they have their handheld and console version, but can add a VR version later if the market would go that way. Or a nx "xl" tablet like version. (And they could still to the streaming some people talk about here as an add-on).

The one architecture-multiple devices is imo the best idea i've heard coming from nintendo since the DS/Wii. It's potential imo is enormous(*), they just have to make sure the execution is right for it to work.

(*) not in sales persé but as a viable strategy for a company like nintendo to stay relevant in two very competing (and declining) markets at the same time, with uncertain third party support and the mobile evolution.

Exactly.

Let's apply this to the past to see how good of an idea it is. Let's imagine that Nintendo implemented this common architecture/OS system back in the early days of the Wii and DS.

What's one of the major reasons that Nintendo absolutely couldn't replace the Wii U when it bombed? The fact that everyone who did buy one would be left high and dry. With this "unified" system in place, Nintendo could have left the Wii U in the dust, releasing a better and more marketable option a year or two later, while still allowing Wii U owners to play all of the games they release.

And meanwhile, as the Wii U is flopping, all of their heavy hitters are still being released to the Wii's 100 million person userbase, or even the Wii HD's userbase (if we're implementing this unified approach way earlier, it wouldn't be crazy to assume that Nintendo would have launched such an upgraded system in ~2010 or so.)

It gives them the flexibility to try more new things, because their potential userbase to sell games to doesn't have to start from zero every time they launch a new idea.

That was a different situation. If that happened, then there wouldn't have been a new Smash Bros at all that generation, it would just have been the Melee rerelease. While I suppose it's possible the may eventually decide to go that route for Smash 5, I see no reason to believe Mario Kart 9 won't come on schedule.

I don't really see a realistic situation where Nintendo releases more than one Smash or Mario Kart per hardware generation. Rereleases like what you're proposing would take sales away from New entries in the series, and divide the online user base.

Definitely good points. A lot of it depends on when the MK9 and Smash 5 would be launching. I just don't think Nintendo can wait 3-4 years after launch for another Smash, for example, with nothing filling the gap in the mean time.

 

[GhostTrick]

It looks like it was a fake based on alot of well-educated speculation. The actual presentation on Investor Day was quite different.

I don't think Nintendo would use 20nm for anything when they've got 28nm around. Yields for 20nm were poor, the power savings over 28nm lackluster (die area savings non-existent), and fabs are already converting their 20nm equipment to 14nm/16nm, so it may not even be available.

Nintendo really just need a nice cheap and reliable SoC with performance "good enough" to look like they belong in 2016. The best way they get there next year is w/ 28nm and a combo of ARM/PowerVR. As I was speculating a few pages back, I'm not so sure that AMD got the win for both the console and the handheld. Console for sure, but there are reasons for Nintendo to have gone w/ a different vendor for the portable SoC...

Or they could go with PowerVR for both.
But yeah, I expect them to go safely on the handheld. Die space, power consumption and heat are thing they want to keep in check.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Yeah, I'd like them to go for PowerVR for both. The "GXA6850" in the iPad Air 2 is a pretty close match for Tegra's X1, and I could see something similar shipping in the NX console. I guess whatever finds its way into this year's iPad Air 3 or iPad Pro might be a good indicator of what PowerVR design might be in the NX.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Exactly.

Let's apply this to the past to see how good of an idea it is. Let's imagine that Nintendo implemented this common architecture/OS system back in the early days of the Wii and DS.

What's one of the major reasons that Nintendo absolutely couldn't replace the Wii U when it bombed? The fact that everyone who did buy one would be left high and dry. With this "unified" system in place, Nintendo could have left the Wii U in the dust, releasing a better and more marketable option a year or two later, while still allowing Wii U owners to play all of the games they release.

And meanwhile, as the Wii U is flopping, all of their heavy hitters are still being released to the Wii's 100 million person userbase, or even the Wii HD's userbase (if we're implementing this unified approach way earlier, it wouldn't be crazy to assume that Nintendo would have launched such an upgraded system in ~2010 or so.)

It gives them the flexibility to try more new things, because their potential userbase to sell games to doesn't have to start from zero every time they launch a new idea.

Yes, this. This is also why I'm convinced both NX handheld and NX console might launch within the same year, not only will it be a great way to prove the synergy between the two systems, but it will also show off the flexibility and scalability of NX OS and the new cloud platform Nintendo is building with DeNA, and encourage developers to build games which utilise both systems from the get-go.

Nintendo would also be spreading their risk; if one system does significantly better than the other then they know what to do in the future, for example. iPad ended up cannibalising the iPod Touch, but it didn't make the iPod Touch any harder for developers to support. Nintendo can add new hardware as they see fit.

I also think QOL will be part of the NX platform, that's why we haven't heard more about it. Nintendo needs all the pieces of the puzzle to come together first.

 

[Neoxon]

Exactly.

Let's apply this to the past to see how good of an idea it is. Let's imagine that Nintendo implemented this common architecture/OS system back in the early days of the Wii and DS.

What's one of the major reasons that Nintendo absolutely couldn't replace the Wii U when it bombed? The fact that everyone who did buy one would be left high and dry. With this "unified" system in place, Nintendo could have left the Wii U in the dust, releasing a better and more marketable option a year or two later, while still allowing Wii U owners to play all of the games they release.

And meanwhile, as the Wii U is flopping, all of their heavy hitters are still being released to the Wii's 100 million person userbase, or even the Wii HD's userbase (if we're implementing this unified approach way earlier, it wouldn't be crazy to assume that Nintendo would have launched such an upgraded system in ~2010 or so.)

It gives them the flexibility to try more new things, because their potential userbase to sell games to doesn't have to start from zero every time they launch a new idea.



Definitely good points. A lot of it depends on when the MK9 and Smash 5 would be launching. I just don't think Nintendo can wait 3-4 years after launch for another Smash, for example, with nothing filling the gap in the mean time.

They can. A 3D Mario & a Zelda U port are more than enough for the system's launch. And besides, if any Smash game should get re-released, it's Melee. More likely than not, Smash 5 will take many cues from 4, so releasing 4 on the NX would take away some hype. Melee was long enough ago to not step on Smash 5's toes. Plus, as EVO proved, Melee is the most popular Smash game. Just add online & a NTSC/PAL balancing switch & it'll sell like hotcakes.

 

[LegendofLex]

Backwards compatibility is definitely going. Iwata confirmed it himself when he was talking about supporting Wii U and 3DS after NX launched, as he said that NX will be "starting from zero".

He was referring to the install base, saying that they weren't going to just release games that only NX owners could play since their current machines as a major source of their business and they don't want to cut them off as soon as NX launches.

Regarding your concern about what will happen to Wii U or what will happen to Nintendo 3DS, NX is a new platform, so the installed base will have to be built up from zero. When NX is launched, there already will be a certain volume of Nintendo 3DS and Wii U hardware widely existing in the market, so from a software business perspective, it would be highly inefficient to stop releasing titles for Nintendo 3DS or Wii U right after the launch of NX. Therefore, while we are preparing NX for the future, we are discussing within our internal development teams as well as with the second-party developers we co-develop software with and also with third-party software publishers about how to continue creating software for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/stock/meeting/150626qa/03.html

If anything, that suggests backward compatibility (or cross-gen development) will be in, at least for Wii U, since one of the problems NX is supposed to solve is the problem of staggered releases during a new console launch:

For example, currently it requires a huge amount of effort to port Wii software to Nintendo 3DS because not only their resolutions but also the methods of software development are entirely different. The same thing happens when we try to port Nintendo 3DS software to Wii U. If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms.
[...]
In this perspective, while we are only going to be able to start this [eliminating the problem of starting from scratch with each platform] with the next system, it will become important for us to accurately take advantage of what we have done with the Wii U architecture. It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately. When this [creating this system, the one that can absorb the Wii U architecture] happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html

 

[Pokemaniac]

Definitely good points. A lot of it depends on when the MK9 and Smash 5 would be launching. I just don't think Nintendo can wait 3-4 years after launch for another Smash, for example, with nothing filling the gap in the mean time.

I'd be shocked if Mario Kart 9 isn't well underway right now. That will be a year 1 or 2 game for sure.

As for Smash Bros 5, I'm fairly certain that Smash has an average development cycle of a bit over 2 years. If development starts on Smash 5 sometime next year, it could definitely be ready at a reasonable time.