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[Krejlooc]

All the "if it's more like Kinect..." comments were starting to annoy me, but the discussions are really starting to follow the same path.
The point of releasing new devices is to offer new experiences. They didn't create an AR headset so you could play Call of Duty in your living room...

Welcome to the discourse in VR topics for the last 2 years. I don't think people quite understand iterating technology.

Always wanted to hook up with a holographic woman!

You shame your name and avatar.

 

[BGBW]

The future of Love Plus is here!

 

[cakely]

What that poster refers to as "pinning" is something I'm eager to learn more about.


edit: Also it's quite interesting how good a match Minecraft appears to be for this, not just as a game but as an interface. Maybe that's part of why MS spent so much on the IP.

They don't really show you an "interface". In that example, how do you tell Minecraft that you'd like to place a brick block? Gesturing with a finger? Is it, "hold your finger here for 3 seconds"? Do you use your voice to say "place block" when your finger is in the correct position? It's a great-looking concept video but there are some critical missing elements.

 

[Brudinho]

Seems like this was the former Xbox only Project Fortaleza
Looks awesome , I think AR will find a bigger user base than VR
The good thing about that approach is that they are finding more ways to use it beside gaming
The Windows integration will open AR to a big audience , I hope they gonna connect this to Xbox One as well

 

[onQ123]

What's the difference?

AR is just a overlay over the real world MR is when you can interact with the virtual world that's being mixed with the real world.

Being able to move the virtual items around as if they are in the real world is MR.

 

[AmyS]

Remember when we could dream ?

 

[DopeyFish]

Seems like this was the former Xbox only Project Fortaleza
Looks awesome , I think AR will find a bigger user base than VR
The good thing about that approach is that they are finding more ways to use it beside gaming
The Windows integration will open AR to a big audience , I hope they gonna connect this to Xbox One as well

Fortaleza was all purpose. They had games and phones in mind.

Problem with all purpose is the consumer/commercial uptake is expected to be very very slow... so redesigning as a PC/games/entertainment hub is genius.

Get people comfortable using it at home before using it elsewhere. Also helps them attempt to miniaturise the design... if it's even possible considering the way they project the images is very unique (and fascinating!)

 

[loaf of bread]

Fortaleza was all purpose. They had games and phones in mind.

Problem with all purpose is the consumer/commercial uptake is expected to be very very slow... so redesigning as a PC/games/entertainment hub is genius.

Get people comfortable using it at home before using it elsewhere. Also helps them attempt to miniaturise the design... if it's even possible considering the way they project the images is very unique (and fascinating!)

If only they adopted this same strategy for the Xbox One pre-launch

 

[cyberheater]

Remember when we could dream ?

I remember all that stuff. It looked amazing in print. In hindsight what we got was a massive disappointment but back then I was gobsmacked by Super Mario 64 which looked stunning at the time.

 

[Betta Lines]

AR is just a overlay over the real world MR is when you can interact with the virtual world that's being mixed with the real world.

Being able to move the virtual items around as if they are in the real world is MR.

I would still call anything that involves being aware of the real world 'AR'. I don't see where the distinction lies. It's either one or the other. VR or AR. What MS have shown is clearly a form of AR - the most obvious form I would say.

 

[Kinthalis]

I have a feeling this will be plagued with shortcomings just like Kinect.

 

[justsomeguy]

The more I think about it, the more I think Phil's "watch to the end" is a hint that HoloLens and Xbox will be working together...

 

[DopeyFish]

I would still call anything that involves being aware of the real world 'AR'. I don't see where the distinction lies. It's either one or the other. VR or AR. What MS have shown is clearly a form of AR - the most obvious form I would say.

Like when they were walking on the surface of mars amiright

 

[Anton Sugar]

Does anyone remember an article in an old gaming mag where three big games guys (Miyamoto, the Panasonic M2 designer, and someone from Sony, maybe?) were asked about their dream game?

I'm pretty sure at least one of the other designers talked about wanting a VR game, but Miyamoto (I THINK) said he'd rather have an AR-style game.

I distinctly remember one of them saying they want to move gaming from just being in front of a TV and moving it to the "outside world" but I can't remember who.

Random, I know.

 

[justsomeguy]

Wonder what the battery life is

 

[ichtyander]

All the "if it's more like Kinect..." comments were starting to annoy me, but the discussions are really starting to follow the same path.
The point of releasing new devices is to offer new experiences. They didn't create an AR headset so you could play Call of Duty in your living room...

Maybe I didn't express my thoughts clearly or I'm misunderstanding your post, but that was exactly my point. I'm saying that consumers and developers will have to rethink how they approach game design to accommodate the benefits and limitations AR brings. It's just that MS is aggressively showing Minecraft in their examples, and as a first person survival and building game, it's just not the same thing if it's displayed that way in your living room. Same goes for complete genres like FPS and racing, unless you want to play in some sort of limited cube that is your living room, like a Turok N64 fog of sorts that "scrolls" inside and outside of your room while you're moving (actually, the old Populous games are a better example of what I mean). Micromachines on the other hand...

Yeah, this isn't something that will be more helpful in all games or programs. Expectations will have to be set. I can see it being useful in first person games to relay information to you (basically, a heads up display, whether its "pinned" or not), but not as an actual part of the game itself.

But you know, imagine a BF game where the kill feed or minimap isn't cluttering up a section of the screen. Ghost Recon where the communication dialog box isn't covering the top or bottom of the screen, but is outside of it.

I'd love to plan Rainbow Six-style sieges with a projection of the target building, right there on my coffee table in front of me, and then draw routes, collaborate with team members, indicate where you'll set explosives, etc.

Well that's kind of obsolete though, isn't it? I mean, you're talking about playing BF on a regular 2D display like a TV while also wearing goggles just for the HUD. If you're gonna wear something on your head, at least VR will do the exactly same thing while putting you inside this game.

 

[cakely]

Oh, man I just figured out how you could make a minecraft AR interface.

Make a real block that would be the exact size of the AR blocks in your interface. Provide a button on the block that you could click, which could be bluetooth or just a distinct clicking sound that a mic could pick up.

The software would track the position of the block using the camera on the googles. Position the block on your AR minecraft model, then click the button to perform an action on the block, such as adding the block, removing the block etc.

 

[cyberheater]

MOJANG: There are 2 Minecraft HoloLens titles
"ONE A TOY’ ONE ‘CLOSE TO THE GAME’"

Microsoft wasn’t afraid to talk about potential videogame applications for its Windows Holographic technology and the HoloLens head-mounted display (HMD) at a reveal event earlier today. In fact the company even teased a new version of the ever-popular Minecraft series, which it acquired for $2.5 billion USD back in 2014, would be coming to the platform. Surprisingly, it appears that there isn’t just one Minecraft HoloLens project in development however; there are in fact two that are apparently very different.

http://vrfocus.com/archives/10882/mojang-2-minecraft-hololens-titles-one-toy-one-close-game/

Interesting. I hope other devs jump on board.

 

[cyberheater]

Oh, man I just figured out how you could make a minecraft AR interface.

Make a real block that would be the exact size of the AR blocks in your interface. Provide a button on the block that you could click, which could be bluetooth or just a distinct clicking sound that a mic could pick up.

The software would track the position of the block using the camera on the googles. Position the block on your AR minecraft model, then click the button to perform an action on the block, such as adding the block, removing the block etc.

You should send that off to MS. That's pretty neat.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Well that's kind of obsolete though, isn't it? I mean, you're talking about playing BF on a regular 2D display like a TV while also wearing goggles just for the HUD. If you're gonna wear something on your head, at least VR will do the exactly same thing while putting you inside this game.

That's low-hanging fruit, of course. Like I and the poster I was responding to said, FPS applications are limited. Still, if I had a HoloLens and I wanted to play an FPS, I'd rather have my HUD as a part of augmented reality rather than right on my screen.

And my Rainbow Six: Siege idea is still awesome.

 

[hawk2025]

The more I think about it, the more I think Phil's "watch to the end" is a hint that HoloLens and Xbox will be working together...

If Smartglass can come to tablets, it can come to HoloLens.

I think the application is immediate and obvious: It will be a simpler, better way to position additional information (or getting rid of HUDs entirely) by using the rest of your room.

I'm sure they have that in mind already.

 

[hawk2025]

Oh, man I just figured out how you could make a minecraft AR interface.

Make a real block that would be the exact size of the AR blocks in your interface. Provide a button on the block that you could click, which could be bluetooth or just a distinct clicking sound that a mic could pick up.

The software would track the position of the block using the camera on the googles. Position the block on your AR minecraft model, then click the button to perform an action on the block, such as adding the block, removing the block etc.

That's brilliant.

Edit: Ugh, too many HoloLens topics. I'm sorry for the double post, I thought this was a different one

 

[Hidden One]

Eh.

 

[Anton Sugar]

MOJANG: There are 2 Minecraft HoloLens titles
"ONE A TOY’ ONE ‘CLOSE TO THE GAME’"



http://vrfocus.com/archives/10882/mojang-2-minecraft-hololens-titles-one-toy-one-close-game/

Interesting. I hope other devs jump on board.

Yeah, I bet one is just a "mini" Minecraft game that scans the environment and lets you build based on it, like we've seen in the reel.

The "close to the game" version is probably different.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I really don't see virtual reality working well on the current-gen platforms.

1080p is too low for VR goggles and even at that resolution, the consoles will struggle. Getting a high enough frame rate (an absolute must for VR unless you like vomiting) for a smooth VR experience at a good resolution just doesn't seem possible with the hardware in the Xbox and PS4.

Maybe if they keep the game experiences really simple or stick to stuff like Minecraft that have rudimentary graphics.

 

[gofreak]

Oh, man I just figured out how you could make a minecraft AR interface.

Make a real block that would be the exact size of the AR blocks in your interface. Provide a button on the block that you could click, which could be bluetooth or just a distinct clicking sound that a mic could pick up.

The software would track the position of the block using the camera on the googles. Position the block on your AR minecraft model, then click the button to perform an action on the block, such as adding the block, removing the block etc.

The tactile nature of holding a cube would be somewhat overcome by the fact that it would be free to float around in real space while there are blocks in the virtual image... e.g. if you were wanting to add a block, there'd be no tactile feedback for lining your 'real' block up with the virtual ones in the image. So the block would be kind of reduced to a clicker peripheral that could really be of any shape and it would do the same job.

That is, until we can do 'blocks' that have (real) force feedback

 

[Betta Lines]

Like when they were walking on the surface of mars amiright

The Mars surface that was displayed on top of the real environment so that you were still aware of it? Yes, that is AR. As I understand it, the device is unable to completely block your view of reality. If it can, then it becomes a VR device. I'm just questioning the need for this 'MR' term.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

They don't really show you an "interface". In that example, how do you tell Minecraft that you'd like to place a brick block? Gesturing with a finger? Is it, "hold your finger here for 3 seconds"? Do you use your voice to say "place block" when your finger is in the correct position? It's a great-looking concept video but there are some critical missing elements.

I was just thinking out loud about how the existing Minecraft interface - using a mouse and inventory menu to interact with huge scenes one small block at a time - could be fitted to work with a virtual environment.

edit: this is exactly what I meant when I said interface:

Oh, man I just figured out how you could make a minecraft AR interface.

Make a real block that would be the exact size of the AR blocks in your interface. Provide a button on the block that you could click, which could be bluetooth or just a distinct clicking sound that a mic could pick up.

The software would track the position of the block using the camera on the googles. Position the block on your AR minecraft model, then click the button to perform an action on the block, such as adding the block, removing the block etc.

 

[SystemUser]

I really don't see virtual reality working well on the current-gen platforms.

1080p is too low for VR goggles and even at that resolution, the consoles will struggle. Getting a high enough frame rate (an absolute must for VR unless you like vomiting) for a smooth VR experience at a good resolution just doesn't seem possible with the hardware in the Xbox and PS4.

Maybe if they keep the game experiences really simple or stick to stuff like Minecraft that have rudimentary graphics.

What's over under on how long until I can hack the gibson?

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I really don't see virtual reality working well on the current-gen platforms.

1080p is too low for VR goggles and even at that resolution, the consoles will struggle. Getting a high enough frame rate (an absolute must for VR unless you like vomiting) for a smooth VR experience at a good resolution just doesn't seem possible with the hardware in the Xbox and PS4.

Maybe if they keep the game experiences really simple or stick to stuff like Minecraft that have rudimentary graphics.

This isn't vr and doesn't use the Xbox. Its a completely standalone, wireless device.

 

[hawk2025]

The tactile nature of holding a cube would be somewhat overcome by the fact that it would be free to float around in real space while there are blocks in the virtual image... e.g. if you were wanting to add a block, there'd be no tactile feedback for lining your 'real' block up with the virtual ones in the image. So the block would be kind of reduced to a clicker peripheral that could really be of any shape and it would do the same job.

That is, until we can do 'blocks' that have (real) force feedback

Well, that's an issue that will exist with HoloLens regardless of the application: If the device manages to "pin" the objects to a place in the room as is suggested, you immediately run into the issue of how to give feedback to the player when he inevitably touches said object.

Given his description, I don't see why his physical block "blocking" the projection is an issue, though. That's precisely what will make block placement accurate: You can see when it is superimposing the image. The feedback can be visual: The adjacent blocks may be highlighted, for example.


The trick with AR here is that it doesn't have to trick your brain, like VR, into "believing" that the Minecraft village actually exists in your living room. You know it's a projection you can freely tamper with (same as when, say, your little brother runs across the room), but it's how you interact with so far that it's unconvincing to me: The finger-clicking in the live presentation looked sloppy, imprecise, and awkward. His application (feasible or not) has the potential to resolve the issue -- as long as the tech behind "pinning" the objects to the environment is 100% solid.

 

[AtomicShroom]

I've never seen so much impractical wishful thinking crammed into a single promotional video. It'll be a miracle if it can pull off even 10% of what was shown in it. Remember when Kinect was supposed to revolutionize videogames forever and render the traditional controller useless? Yeah.

 

[cyberheater]

I have a feeling this will be plagued with shortcomings just like Kinect.

I'm sure it will but I have a good feeling that the underlying technology is here now for something like this.

If they can get the "pinning" very tight so objects stay put wherever you move around and the graphics are solid enough it will be a compelling experience.

 

[Earendil]

brb changing pants

 

[GuitarAtomik]

The tactile nature of holding a cube would be somewhat overcome by the fact that it would be free to float around in real space while there are blocks in the virtual image... e.g. if you were wanting to add a block, there'd be no tactile feedback for lining your 'real' block up with the virtual ones in the image. So the block would be kind of reduced to a clicker peripheral that could really be of any shape and it would do the same job.

That is, until we can do 'blocks' that have (real) force feedback

Add force feedback to the cube. Whenever it clicks in to a spot it can be placed, it vibrates. Pulling it off gives a slightly different vibration.

EDIT: Reread what you posted and that's basically what you said lol. I think. Sorry.

 

[DrM]

I've never seen so much impractical wishful thinking crammed into a single promotional video. It'll be a miracle if it can pull off even 10% of what was shown in it. Remember when Kinect was supposed to revolutionize videogames forever and render the traditional controller useless? Yeah.

Yeah, they are very good at MS with there 'conceptual' videos. How the final product will look/work... that is another question.

 

[DopeyFish]

I'm sure it will but I have a good feeling that the underlying technology is here now for something like this.

If they can get the "pinning" very tight so objects stay put wherever you move around and the graphics are solid enough it will be a compelling experience.

you get pinning down and you can use whatever control schema you want if the gesture system doesn't work out

 

[CoG]

Yeah, they are very good at MS with there 'conceptual' videos. How the final product will look... that is another question.

Still waiting to scan my skateboard with Kinect.

 

[Three]

Looks very slick. So this was what Strauss Zelnic was given a demo of. Is there a demo at the event?

 

[Winterfang]

No way I'm falling from this again.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Still waiting to scan my skateboard with Kinect.

Still waiting to make custom decals for it and sell them on the Xbox Marketplace for actual money! Oh VelocityGirl...

 

[Alx]

Maybe I didn't express my thoughts clearly or I'm misunderstanding your post, but that was exactly my point.

Sorry for jumping the gun then, years of Kinect discussions may have made me a bit twitchy.

 

[Hubble]

Expectations for games should be tempered. This will be highly useful tech but moreso for other applications. It will be useful for some games like chess, legos, etc., but has greater applicability in other things.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I'm sure it will but I have a good feeling that the underlying technology is here now for something like this.

If they can get the "pinning" very tight so objects stay put wherever you move around and the graphics are solid enough it will be a compelling experience.

Just thinking out loud here. Is it possible this "pinning" technology they speak of is able to create an absolute position that can be saved and referenced by anyone at any later time from a gesture made by the user?
The most straightforward way to do something like this is have very high resolution positional information about the user (including GPS data and other local indicators to raise the resolution) and then use the gesture to compute an offset relative to the user. Once you have the correct location of the offset, it can be converted to an absolute position and stored along with other metadata for the virtual object.

 

[cakely]

The tactile nature of holding a cube would be somewhat overcome by the fact that it would be free to float around in real space while there are blocks in the virtual image... e.g. if you were wanting to add a block, there'd be no tactile feedback for lining your 'real' block up with the virtual ones in the image. So the block would be kind of reduced to a clicker peripheral that could really be of any shape and it would do the same job.

That is, until we can do 'blocks' that have (real) force feedback

True, the real block would essentially just be a pointer with a "click" button. Your haptic feedback idea is good.

Now I really want to know how the actual demo is being run, I can't wait to find out the details.

 

[cyberheater]

I think this is why MS bought MineCraft.

Just thinking out loud here. Is it possible this "pinning" technology they speak of is able to create an absolute position that can be saved and referenced by anyone at any later time from a gesture made by the user?
The most straightforward way to do something like this is have very high resolution positional information about the user (including GPS data and other local indicators to raise the resolution) and then use the gesture to compute an offset relative to the user. Once you have the correct location of the offset, it can be converted to an absolute position and stored along with other metadata for the virtual object.

You're on a roll tonight.

You sound like you have a very interesting application in mind. Care to share?

 

[Alx]

Still waiting to scan my skateboard with Kinect.

Come on, you can scan your face in games nowadays, even with regular cameras. The only reason there's no game with a skateboard scanning feature is that devs didn't consider it worth the effort. There is no reason to doubt the technology.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This isn't vr and doesn't use the Xbox. Its a completely standalone, wireless device.

Well, then. That's what I get for not reading fully. Figured this was their answer to the Oculus/Project Morpheus.

 

[Ferrio]

I think this is why MS bought MineCraft.

Most certainly is. Then needed a BIG title if they wanted to push this out. Minecraft is the only hope of this catching IMO.

 

[PanicFreak]

Most certainly is. Then needed a BIG title if they wanted to push this out. Minecraft is the only hope of this catching IMO.

This device won't just be for gaming. It will be for computing in general.