Red Arremer
Member
Indeed. Sadly, it also means protecting anti-vaxxers from disease.
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My brother claims people should weigh the pros and cons of being vaccinated?
- Thread starter Haines
- Start date
Indeed. Sadly, it also means protecting anti-vaxxers from disease.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
pros: you protect yourself and others from terrible maladies
con: you lose one of the talking points that allow you to rationalize that you're actually smart because the rest of the world is just unwitting sheep
that's a genuinely tough choice to make when you're an idiot
con: you lose one of the talking points that allow you to rationalize that you're actually smart because the rest of the world is just unwitting sheep
that's a genuinely tough choice to make when you're an idiot
Username1198
Member
I don't know that much about vaccinations other than you should get vaccinated, but how is the rest of the world in terms of choosing not to vaccinate? 1st world countries I mean.
Is this another American thing I should be embarrassed about?
Is this another American thing I should be embarrassed about?
WaterAstro
Member
Pros: Made up magical disease barriers!
Cons: The gov't can't put nanomachines inside you!
/s
Cons: The gov't can't put nanomachines inside you!
/s
Rushersauce
Banned
Pros:
- you're being vaccinated.
Cons:
- a scar.
There!
- you're being vaccinated.
Cons:
- a scar.
There!
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Earthbound64
Banned
Sure, weigh the many pros and the virtually inconsequential cons.
You should come to only 1 possibility.
Yes, they should.
You should come to only 1 possibility.
Yes, they should.
prag16
Banned
I'm sure I'll get dogpiled for this. But this seems like blatant mod abuse in the OP. Censorship is never the way. Regardless of the topic at hand.
The U.S. has a busier recommended childhood schedule than most of Europe last I remember seeing. As far as compliance, I don't think there's a huge difference. Compliance in the US is generally greater than 95% despite all the talk about this.
The U.S. has a busier recommended childhood schedule than most of Europe last I remember seeing. As far as compliance, I don't think there's a huge difference. Compliance in the US is generally greater than 95% despite all the talk about this.
Earthbound64
Banned
GuessMyUserName
Member
They should, they're murderers.
Red Arremer
Member
It's not only an American thing, it's starting to be pretty wide-spread in Europe too I'm afraid.
The main "arguments" of anti-vaxxers are one or more of these:
- Vaccinations and modern medicine in general are "unnatural"
- Vaccines cause autism, which is based on a long debunked study by a discredited former physician
- Conspiracy theories
Unfortunately, anti-vaxxers got vaccinated against the deadly disease of facts.
And with the internet and especially social media, these morons have gotten a platform to spread their bullshit and get an audience for it, resulting in the rate of vaccinations going down, and diseases that thought to be mostly eliminated are making a resurgence.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
The links in the OP were simply nonsense. Not spreading them is a public service.
Choppasmith
Member
This reminds me of how my half sister who, SURPRISE, has a very conservative upbringing is an anti-vaxxer because she heard a story about how someone died from some kind of allergic reaction from a vaccine. I mean it's sad if true, but at the same time she had this "Good thing I'm not letting my son fall victim to those blasted things." way of taking about it.
JonnyDBrit
Member
To directly address each point in that first article:
1) The primary examples cited of pharmaceutical companies prescribing something with adverse side effects is, you know, a vaccine. Because in most instances, vaccines are not drugs, and so are not held to the same standard other medical products are. That is to say, vaccines are largely held to a much higher standard, and in most instances their creators are less concerned with profit margins because vaccines are much less profitable than other products.
2) I actually just read through the article cited for this, since they provide a link and all. Any dumbass reading it would realise that the authors are not advocating that people not take vaccinations - just that there are consistent, unintended issues that arise from such, and they believe there is a root cause. Lemme cite the conclusion real quick:
The proposal of the people who did the study is to seek to improve quality control, not disavow vaccines as a solution.
3) Vaccines work by stimulating illness in order to better prepare the body to fight things off for real when you're older. As to the numbers they cite, their primary source is an anti-vac site, so not exactly the most neutral or objective folks. And here's a pretty easy correlation factor to explain higher rates of given conditions: Parents who vaccinate are also more likely to have their children checked for anything else. And given the old invocation of mental health, I will say this, as someone with autism: I will fucking take that over the risk of polio or measles any day, even if it were caused by vaccination (which it probably wasn't).
4) Its citations of countries 'waking up' to the dangers of vaccines lacks context. Like this, for example:
Allow me to explain what the NHS actually says:
It's that the vaccine in children largely isn't necessary, as they generally recover quickly. The risk is, in fact, to unvaccinated kids who, because chickenpox is still very widespread globally, could catch it as adults if they move out of the areas they grew up in - where most are presumed vaccinated in this example - and they would be at a very severe risk if they do. And exposure to chickenpox serves as a natural vaccine against shingles, so that helps too (like cowpox was for smallpox, gasp!). The vaccine itself is not the fucking problem.
Oh and uh, they do offer it if really necessary:
Oh look, that's herd immunity.
Do not trust a writer who so wilfully misinterprets the sources.
5) Yes, sometimes vaccines come out as a botched release. That is frustrating and tragic for those affected. That doesn't make 'vaccines' as a concept flawed, it means those were. For example, the WHO considers current Rotavirus vaccines safe, in contrast to the ones cited in the article. And yet it tries to claim all vaccines should have the same basic problems; they don't.
6) That last point, funny enough, is ultimately an advocation for vaccination. Yes, you can wait, your child's general health may not be best suited to coping. In most instances, you can get a vaccine whenever, that's true.
But don't ever delay so long that someday becomes, in practice, never. Because every day you don't get a vaccine or a jab, is a day you risk a lack of protection against what they cover. A lack of protection you're even able to risk in the western world to begin with because previous generations were not complete idiots; measles, smallpox, polio, those were once all common. Falling ill because you scratched some rusty iron was a regular workplace hazard. Not now, in those nations that readily afforded and have enacted it. Villifying vaccines is spitting on the work men like Jonas Salk did, on those who suffered and still suffer from disease, and on those with the mental health conditions that people so often like to link to such.
1) The primary examples cited of pharmaceutical companies prescribing something with adverse side effects is, you know, a vaccine. Because in most instances, vaccines are not drugs, and so are not held to the same standard other medical products are. That is to say, vaccines are largely held to a much higher standard, and in most instances their creators are less concerned with profit margins because vaccines are much less profitable than other products.
2) I actually just read through the article cited for this, since they provide a link and all. Any dumbass reading it would realise that the authors are not advocating that people not take vaccinations - just that there are consistent, unintended issues that arise from such, and they believe there is a root cause. Lemme cite the conclusion real quick:
Conclusion said:
The proposal of the people who did the study is to seek to improve quality control, not disavow vaccines as a solution.
3) Vaccines work by stimulating illness in order to better prepare the body to fight things off for real when you're older. As to the numbers they cite, their primary source is an anti-vac site, so not exactly the most neutral or objective folks. And here's a pretty easy correlation factor to explain higher rates of given conditions: Parents who vaccinate are also more likely to have their children checked for anything else. And given the old invocation of mental health, I will say this, as someone with autism: I will fucking take that over the risk of polio or measles any day, even if it were caused by vaccination (which it probably wasn't).
4) Its citations of countries 'waking up' to the dangers of vaccines lacks context. Like this, for example:
Allow me to explain what the NHS actually says:
It's that the vaccine in children largely isn't necessary, as they generally recover quickly. The risk is, in fact, to unvaccinated kids who, because chickenpox is still very widespread globally, could catch it as adults if they move out of the areas they grew up in - where most are presumed vaccinated in this example - and they would be at a very severe risk if they do. And exposure to chickenpox serves as a natural vaccine against shingles, so that helps too (like cowpox was for smallpox, gasp!). The vaccine itself is not the fucking problem.
Oh and uh, they do offer it if really necessary:
Oh look, that's herd immunity.
Do not trust a writer who so wilfully misinterprets the sources.
5) Yes, sometimes vaccines come out as a botched release. That is frustrating and tragic for those affected. That doesn't make 'vaccines' as a concept flawed, it means those were. For example, the WHO considers current Rotavirus vaccines safe, in contrast to the ones cited in the article. And yet it tries to claim all vaccines should have the same basic problems; they don't.
6) That last point, funny enough, is ultimately an advocation for vaccination. Yes, you can wait, your child's general health may not be best suited to coping. In most instances, you can get a vaccine whenever, that's true.
But don't ever delay so long that someday becomes, in practice, never. Because every day you don't get a vaccine or a jab, is a day you risk a lack of protection against what they cover. A lack of protection you're even able to risk in the western world to begin with because previous generations were not complete idiots; measles, smallpox, polio, those were once all common. Falling ill because you scratched some rusty iron was a regular workplace hazard. Not now, in those nations that readily afforded and have enacted it. Villifying vaccines is spitting on the work men like Jonas Salk did, on those who suffered and still suffer from disease, and on those with the mental health conditions that people so often like to link to such.
GuessMyUserName
Member
It's been about an hour so I guess OP ain't coming back?
How is that?
Finale Fireworker
Member
I am aggressively pro-vaccination. I am fully vaccinated and all my children, if I have any, will be fully vaccinated.
But I have had one experience with vaccines that was negative and I still don't know what to make of it. It's nearly impossible to research on my own because of all the bull shit sources and I've not been able to figure out exactly what happened.
A cousin of mine, in her early twenties, went to get the Gardasil (HPV) vaccine. This was five or six years ago when there was the first big push for college-age kids - especially girls - to get the HPV vaccine. My mother and father (who now have precious little credibility on this matter) warned my cousin and her family that this was a "fast-tracked vaccine" that had "not been tested" and "nobody knows what the consequences could be." My mother and father are both career nurses. They tried to scare them with stories of recipients having seizures in the doctor's office and repeated lots of stories about negligent doctors giving all three phases of the shot despite immediate and frightening effects.
My cousin and her family decided to get the shot anyway. Basically immediately thereafter, my cousin started having extreme fatigue and migraines. After a series of check ups it was concluded she had grown lesions on her brain and was diagnosed with Lupus. She has struggled with the disease ever since. She is a fairly prominent face in the state and regularly advocates and participates in Lupus awareness campaigns and fundraisers. It was the conclusion of both our families that she "got Lupus from the poorly tested vaccine."
I am not close with my cousin, but I know she has had other health problems since then. I don't know if it's an extension of the Lupus or another condition, but was also told she would die if she ever got pregnant because her body couldn't survive the pregnancy. While I know very little about it, and considering dramatic health problems that affect other members of her immediate family, I'm inclined to believe it wasn't a result of the vaccine.
But my mother and father, both lifelong medical professionals, maintain that her Lupus was triggered by this vaccine. They advise against anyone getting it. My mother has, since then, become a typical anti-vaxxer who loves to link to lousy sources and conspiracy films about why vaccines are dangerous. It is especially concerning that my father, who has numerously been given state awards for his job performance and has won Nurse of the Year several times, maintains it was the vaccine that doomed my cousin.
Is there anybody here who is better read on the subject who can help me conclude that these two incidents were not related? Because I know, in my heart, they were not connected. But it is difficult to defend this position when people with significantly more clout and understanding of the matter than me insist a clear cause and effect.
I have wanted, this whole time, to read something reputable and concrete that would dispel the misunderstanding of my parents. But I am not a nurse, let alone an award-winning nurse, and I don't know where to go for intellectual assistance.
But I have had one experience with vaccines that was negative and I still don't know what to make of it. It's nearly impossible to research on my own because of all the bull shit sources and I've not been able to figure out exactly what happened.
A cousin of mine, in her early twenties, went to get the Gardasil (HPV) vaccine. This was five or six years ago when there was the first big push for college-age kids - especially girls - to get the HPV vaccine. My mother and father (who now have precious little credibility on this matter) warned my cousin and her family that this was a "fast-tracked vaccine" that had "not been tested" and "nobody knows what the consequences could be." My mother and father are both career nurses. They tried to scare them with stories of recipients having seizures in the doctor's office and repeated lots of stories about negligent doctors giving all three phases of the shot despite immediate and frightening effects.
My cousin and her family decided to get the shot anyway. Basically immediately thereafter, my cousin started having extreme fatigue and migraines. After a series of check ups it was concluded she had grown lesions on her brain and was diagnosed with Lupus. She has struggled with the disease ever since. She is a fairly prominent face in the state and regularly advocates and participates in Lupus awareness campaigns and fundraisers. It was the conclusion of both our families that she "got Lupus from the poorly tested vaccine."
I am not close with my cousin, but I know she has had other health problems since then. I don't know if it's an extension of the Lupus or another condition, but was also told she would die if she ever got pregnant because her body couldn't survive the pregnancy. While I know very little about it, and considering dramatic health problems that affect other members of her immediate family, I'm inclined to believe it wasn't a result of the vaccine.
But my mother and father, both lifelong medical professionals, maintain that her Lupus was triggered by this vaccine. They advise against anyone getting it. My mother has, since then, become a typical anti-vaxxer who loves to link to lousy sources and conspiracy films about why vaccines are dangerous. It is especially concerning that my father, who has numerously been given state awards for his job performance and has won Nurse of the Year several times, maintains it was the vaccine that doomed my cousin.
Is there anybody here who is better read on the subject who can help me conclude that these two incidents were not related? Because I know, in my heart, they were not connected. But it is difficult to defend this position when people with significantly more clout and understanding of the matter than me insist a clear cause and effect.
I have wanted, this whole time, to read something reputable and concrete that would dispel the misunderstanding of my parents. But I am not a nurse, let alone an award-winning nurse, and I don't know where to go for intellectual assistance.
Hmm hmm...
Having potentially deadly whooping cough, or not having potentially deadly whooping cough...
Bruh half of what the mods do around here is removing dumb ass or not safe for work or aggressively idiotic content from the boards.
Like, where do you think you are? :lol
Frozenprince
Banned
If idiots like your brother bring back diseases we had wiped out and, for instance, my son gets fucking smallpox.
There will be a reckoning.
There will be a reckoning.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
Cons:
The needle makes the child cry for the next 30 minutes which I guess is annoying.
Pros:
The child DOESN'T DIE.
The needle makes the child cry for the next 30 minutes which I guess is annoying.
Pros:
The child DOESN'T DIE.
Red Arremer
Member
Lupus is an auto immune disease. The vaccine probably was the cause for the headache and fatigue, but those symptoms manifested most likely because of the lupus, and not alongside it.
That said, Gardasil is completely safe. There is no correlation between it and causing lupus, so much so that the Lupus Foundation published an article saying as much.
I'd say they're probably more reputable and knowledgeable about lupus than your father, even if he is Nurse of the Year.
As someone with an autoimmune disease, you cannot 'catch' lupus. They tend to run in families. The only research that shows higher chances of autoimmune disease is linked to childhood trauma.
She already had lupus. It just happened manifest around the same time she got the shot.
Hm.. pros and cons. Let me think about it. Okay, I'm done. 'Cause, you know.. there are no cons. Maybe good advice in general, I mean you generally want to weigh pros and cons of just about any decision, but in this case it's just a waste of time.
The only complications I've personally seen from vaccines are people coming down with some of the minor symptoms of what they're being vaccinated against, which maybe last for a day or two and then they're fine... and protected. I've never had it happen to me personally, and I've probably gotten a lot more vaccines than the average guy, from serving in the military and overseas to boot. They pump you full of all kinds of shit before you deploy.
The only complications I've personally seen from vaccines are people coming down with some of the minor symptoms of what they're being vaccinated against, which maybe last for a day or two and then they're fine... and protected. I've never had it happen to me personally, and I've probably gotten a lot more vaccines than the average guy, from serving in the military and overseas to boot. They pump you full of all kinds of shit before you deploy.
Ivellios
Member
This
Hey look, some near eradicated diseases are coming back... Thanks to anti vaxers!
http://time.com/27308/4-diseases-making-a-comeback-thanks-to-anti-vaxxers/
You want to know how we know it works, beside, you know, science?
The resurgence comes from spots where anti vax has been stronger.
Measles
1 to 2 kids in a 1000 will die of measles.
That is so stupid.
http://time.com/27308/4-diseases-making-a-comeback-thanks-to-anti-vaxxers/
You want to know how we know it works, beside, you know, science?
The resurgence comes from spots where anti vax has been stronger.
Measles
1 to 2 kids in a 1000 will die of measles.
That is so stupid.
Cotton McKnight
Member
Man, anti-vaxxers, just kill me.
My sister-in-law and her husband, use so many arguments against scientific logic, the mental gymnastics just makes me so sad.
My sister-in-law and her husband, use so many arguments against scientific logic, the mental gymnastics just makes me so sad.
Princess Viola
Member
i mean those needles hurt tho
/s
/s
Night Angel
Member
Con: living is expensive. College is expensive. Clothes are expensive. Skipping the vaccines eliminates the middle and sharply reduces the others.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I approve of the OP edit LOL
Slackbladder
Member
This reminds me of a book I'm thinking of getting - The Republican Brain: The Science of Why They Deny Science and Reality by Chris Mooney.
As for your brothers assertion, what? There are no cons. False equivalences and intellectual dishonesty and the idea that ALL opinions are equal will be the doom of mankind.
As for your brothers assertion, what? There are no cons. False equivalences and intellectual dishonesty and the idea that ALL opinions are equal will be the doom of mankind.
HE'S not going to get polio; HE'S already vaccinated.
On an off note, privileged ignorance has been pissing me off more and more. These people don't have to think about why they're healthy or why they have all these public services (taxes), they just go off on their gut feelings and screw the rest of us over. I'm convinced that every grade needs a week to teach students every school year about vaccinations and taxes and their history and how they give us all the things we take for granted. Every year, without fail.
Because we are suffering from the alternative, and it is fucking horrifying. Seeing a toddler suffer whooping cough in person ONCE is way too many times to see that.
So, it's probably not COMPLETE bullshit. You get a vaccine, your body has an immune response. Once in a blue, that immune response goes haywire. This case was either coincidental, or maybe she was already in the early stages of lupus, and it brought out some additional symptoms.
Basically, vaccines are not COMPLETELY benign, and we really don't have a 100 percent grasp on how they interact with the immune system, as short answer, it's complicated. But your body also has immune responses with pretty much everything you do, from getting scrapes to eating breakfast...
"Censorship"?
It has been demonstrated again and again that this false propaganda kills people. Fuck "freedom of speech" if you think it's worth the blood of children.
Yes people should weigh the pros and cons. You'll find aside from mild side effects like fever or fatigue, and possibly a lighting strike level of chance of rare infection, there are no cons. There is no autism link. Now ask for the pros. Preventing the spread of communicable diseases especoally amongst vulnerable groups, helping the 'herd' immunity, helping your own children be protected against many once deadly diseases etc.
I am not saying go and get every new vaccine out. But your brother has dangerous and stupid thinking.
I am not saying go and get every new vaccine out. But your brother has dangerous and stupid thinking.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Pro: Your child won't die.
Con: None.
Con: None.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
Unless your brother thinks living longer and being disease free is a con, he is being a fool.
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