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[Massa]

So working for a videogame company is pretty much the same as working anywhere else?

I still don't get why people in this industry think they're special.

Sorry about your job but no, this kind of shit is not business as usual.

And yeah, people should feel special. At least special enough that they're treated with decency by their employers.

 

[JaggedSac]

I think the opening is what his superiors thought of him.

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

I think the opening is a way of preventing getting into any shit with rock*? Like if they sue him or something he can point to it and say it was a joke and it was stated at the start?

That is how I saw it anyway.

taking notes from Galilelo

 

[Solo]

Yeah, people like you are the reason why Cardbury has like 90% of their primary stuff produced in a country where it's ok to eat children and kidnap them to carry out rituals of exorcism with them as an offering to some deity.

Yeah, no. You are equating WILLFULLY working and being PAID ACCORDINGLY for a game developer in shitty conditions in the FREE WORLD with being FORCED to work in a SWEATSHOP in a THIRD WORLD country for PENNIES a day.

GTFO of here :lol :lol You don't like the conditions at Rockstar? Quit.

 

[LCfiner]

Stuff like Agile and SCRUMMS exist for companies as apparently dysfunctional as R*.

they force constant communication and feedback loops that should be common fucking sense for anyone else.

 

[Visualante]

If every game developer didn't think their own pet idea was the next billion-seller that would make them filthy rich, maybe they could get down to the business of forming a union.

Somewhat related story I read earlier this month http://vfxlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/should-we-unionize/

 

[Ledsen]

Read the whole thing and damn. It seems like he really tried to help out, but got demoted and then canned when he let it slip about the schedule being unrealistic.

As I understood it, he quit?

 

[Massa]

Yeah, no. You are equating WILLFULLY working and being PAID ACCORDINGLY for a game developer in shitty conditions in the FREE WORLD with being FORCED to work in a SWEATSHOP in a THIRD WORLD country for PENNIES a day.

GTFO of here :lol :lol You don't like the conditions at Rockstar? Quit.

Except this one guy wasn't paid accordingly. Read the article.

And, uh, he did quit. Again, read the article.

 

[Solo]

Except this one guy wasn't paid accordingly. Read the article.

My final remark remains. Don't think you are earning a fair/competitive wage? Find another job. And if he did quit, its just petty and bad form to lambaste your former company publically.

Basically, as shitty as R* San Diego may be, this guy is a pretty big douche himself.

 

[pj]

Aside from forcing people to work 72 hours a week, which should be illegal if it isn't, the problems all sound like regular corporate management bull crap.

Read the whole thing and damn. It seems like he really tried to help out, but got demoted and then canned when he let it slip about the schedule being unrealistic.

He didn't get fired, he quit..

 

[Jintor]

My final remark remains. Don't think you are earning a fair/competitive wage? Find another job. And if he did quit, its just petty and bad form to lambaste your former company publically.

Basically, as shitty as R* San Diego may be, this guy is a pretty big douche himself.

What, so if you quit a company you should never be able to talk about how it was there?

 

[mikespit1200]

Does it make me a bad person that I'd play a R* Sweatshop sim?

 

[Solo]

What, so if you quit a company you should never be able to talk about how it was there?

Sure you can. Bitch and moan to your friends and family like a normal person. Don't post a big rant online like a giant douche.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Seems like the guy had a personality that just wasn't going to fit in that culture. It sounds like intellectually he understands what needs to be done, but his hyper-vigilance prevents him from doing it.

 

[EatChildren]

Sure you can. Bitch and moan to your friends and family like a normal person. Don't post a big rant online like a giant douche.

Don’t be such a pushover. Shitty companies with shitty work ethics hurting their employees should be outed, if the employees feel that badly burned. Just because they made a good game doesn’t mean shit, as stuff like this could give people the courage to a) quit a job that is making their life miserable, and b) prevent people jumping into a job they hate.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

He didn't get fired, he quit..

My bad. He should have jump ship a long time ago if he hated it there.

 

[hamchan]

That opening wtf :lol

 

[Solo]

Don’t be such a pushover. Shitty companies with shitty work ethics hurting their employees should be outed, if the employees feel that badly burned. Just because they made a good game doesn’t mean shit, as stuff like this could give people the courage to a) quit a job that is making their life miserable, and b) prevent people jumping into a job they hate.

Thats one way of looking at it, but it just reads like sour grapes to me.

 

[Dennis]

His complaint about Maya and Max is funny to me. If you work professionally with either it should not take you long at all to adjust to the other program.

RDR is GOTY 2010, so apparently creativity and accomplishment works just fine in a sweatshop. Who knew!

 

[mikespit1200]

Thats one way of looking at it, but it just reads like sour grapes to me.

Maybe so but the companies should absolutely be called out on this stuff to prospective employees know what they are getting into. If nothing else the internet is just a giant machine for airing grievances.

 

[Wizman23]

Dude that wrote that sounds like a whiny bitch. I'm sure the majority of Rockstar San Diego threw a party when he left.

 

[derFeef]

His complaint about Maya and Max is funny to me. If you work professionally with either it should not take you long at all to adjust to the other program.

RDR is GOTY 2010, so apparently creativity and accomplishment works just fine in a sweatshop. Who knew!

It is not that easy and quick to switch though. And having a boss literally say "Nah, you can´t get help and those two packages are the same anyway, so start working" is frustrating for sure.

 

[CrankyJay]

Interesting read. Reminded me of my time programming at a defense corporation. It just goes to show, no matter what industry you are in, bad management can cause a lot of problems.

 

[Sealda]

I really feel bad for him and others in his positions who basically not only have to struggle with the actual work-related problems like coding etc. but also against a fucked up management. The struggle against other people is often way more unbearable than working against a work related problem. The sad thing is that in all team-related work there are always individuals who are completely incompetent.

I do wonder how the japanese studios are though, must been like this a lot of times or even worse. Not all of them, but many more than the american.

 

[Dennis]

It is not that easy and quick to switch though. And having a boss literally say "Nah, you can´t get help and those two packages are the same anyway, so start working" is frustrating for sure.

I don't agree. I switch back and forth between 3ds MAx and Maya depending on what I need but I didn't find t all that hard to first switch between them. Sure you work slower in the beginning but come on - a few days getting to know how everything is laid out and you are good to go.

 

[Visualante]

I don't agree. I switch back and forth between 3ds MAx and Maya depending on what I need but I didn't find t all that hard to first switch between them. Sure you work slower in the beginning but come on - a few days getting to know how everything is laid out and you are good to go.

I think going from the niceness of Max to the 3 ways to do any task of Maya is what gets people. If you go from Maya to Max it's more of a doddle. But yeah either way no more than a week to get up to speed for a specialized role like modeling and texturing buildings with proper help and support. Anyway it's a minor point compared to the overtime and general team structure. One example where the film industry is ahead again, they are typically quite platform agnostic, they will work with Linux Windows, Max, Maya Soft and any of the sculpting packages you are used to because their pipeline takes care of it all. They grow and shrink freelancers so quick they need the best talent not the best software operators.

 

[MC Safety]

This is probably a bit off-topic, but it seems like this guy has very good instincts.

It's very easy to tell whether an employer is on the ball or not by looking at the little things. One of the simplest things a company can do is to make a prospective employee/new hire feel welcome, whether it's buying him lunch (in the case of Vigil) or taking him on a tour of the facilities to explain where everything is.

 

[Kittonwy]

So working for a videogame company is pretty much the same as working anywhere else?

I still don't get why people in this industry think they're special.

That article reminded me how tough things are everywhere and how sometimes staff aren't being compensated for OT while having the simplest of benefits stripped away.

 

[Night_Trekker]

This kind of stuff makes me want to avoid Rockstar-made games in general. I probably wouldn't have been able to put up with that he did for as long as he did.

 

[Mario]

Why would anyone want to get in the game development biz? Of all the jobs a comp related degree could get you, why would you choose this?

Because not all game studios are created equally. Many are fun, exciting, and challenging places to work.

 

[Kittonwy]

Sure you can. Bitch and moan to your friends and family like a normal person. Don't post a big rant online like a giant douche.

Sometimes people need to find some kind of outlet for all the pent up rage, be it friends and family or via a post online, instead of one day taking the elevator to the roof quietly and throwing yourself over.

 

[CrankyJay]

This is probably a bit off-topic, but it seems like this guy has very good instincts.

It's very easy to tell whether an employer is on the ball or not by looking at the little things. One of the simplest things a company can do is to make a prospective employee/new hire feel welcome, whether it's buying him lunch (in the case of Vigil) or taking him on a tour of the facilities to explain where everything is.

I just imagine he was taken out to lunch by introverted computer dorks who just don't have a lick of social graces. Whether that's the case or not I don't know, but that's my first guess.

 

[SketchTheArtist]

Wow.......I don't know what to say. Level Designers and Level Artists don't work side by side, next to each other?! What?!

I'm a modeler and I work WITH a Level Designer AND a Level Artist and we're next to each other. Communication is a top priority where I work. The flow is unparalleled and the dynamic every little team has on the project in mind-boggling. We have team reviews every Monday, we criticize, suggest and help everyone on the project and we're the fastest team the studio has ever seen, so how come freakin' Rockstar Games can't realize this?!

This is just sad. I worked with a guy on a previous project, a friend of his worked at Rockstar Toronto and the shit he had to go through is just....ugh. After a long day of work, they used to call him back when he got home. Jesus.

Sure, there isn't a studio that's 100% perfect (Well, except Valve and ND maybe ), but all the BS I thought we had is nothing to the serious BS they have at Rockstar. Wow.

 

[Kittonwy]

Sorry about your job but no, this kind of shit is not business as usual.

And yeah, people should feel special. At least special enough that they're treated with decency by their employers.

Actually it is business as usual, most of us simply suck it up and do our jobs.

 

[MC Safety]

I just imagine he was taken out to lunch by introverted computer dorks who just don't have a lick of social graces. Whether that's the case or not I don't know, but that's my first guess.

Well, he was being interviewed then, right? Usually the person(s) involved in the hiring are versed in the etiquette.

I don't know the circumstances, but it would seem to me to be a red flag. And, obviously, it spooked the guy...

 

[coamithra]

This is the one of the "top 5" studios voted by Gamasutra. How sad.

God that list pissed me off.

 

[bernardobri]

This is the one of the "top 5" studios voted by Gamasutra. How sad.

You say it like Gamasutra is likely to have any kind of inside knowledge of the working conditions on the same experience than a former employee...

 

[CrankyJay]

Well, he was being interviewed then, right? Usually the person(s) involved in the hiring are versed in the etiquette.

I don't know the circumstances, but it would seem to me to be a red flag. And, obviously, it spooked the guy...

It depends if he was taken out to lunch by HR or developers (or management). Heck, even if they are management they could have previously been developers. My boss at my last company was promoted from a developer position and didn't have any social skills. It made for an awkward work environment. :lol

But you're right, we don't know the circumstances.

 

[derFeef]

I don't agree. I switch back and forth between 3ds MAx and Maya depending on what I need but I didn't find t all that hard to first switch between them. Sure you work slower in the beginning but come on - a few days getting to know how everything is laid out and you are good to go.

Sure sure, once you know the workflow in both its not that bad. But telling someone who only worked with Max for years to switch to Maya in a few days, without any hep (yeah I know, online tutorials... but still) is a bummer for some. I am just saying I get his point and can see why this may be an issue for some.

 

[BobTheFork]

After finishing my degree, a ton of that just sounds like typical software project BS. Throwing people at a problem, major team members not working well next to each other, that kind of thing. R* sure isn't the only place this goes on; think about it the next time to play a game.

 

[CrankyJay]

After finishing my degree, a ton of that just sounds like typical software project BS. Throwing people at a problem, major team members not working well next to each other, that kind of thing. R* sure isn't the only place this goes on; think about it the next time to play a game.

Yep. I'm all too familiar with managers throwing warm bodies at a problem. And most of that stems from being reactive and not proactive. It sucks for the people who are the ones being thrown because they have a lot of catching up to do.

edit: It also stems from not following a design/development process.

 

[John]

Actually it is business as usual, most of us simply suck it up and do our jobs.

and you don't have a problem with that?

 

[Kittonwy]

and you don't have a problem with that?

It doesn't matter, the economic climate is not good enough that one can pick and choose.

 

[bluedeviltron]

Those horrible working conditions sure did produce a fantastic game.

 

[theBishop]

It doesn't matter, the economic climate is not good enough that one can pick and choose.

Which is why labor needs empowering.

 

[CrankyJay]

and you don't have a problem with that?

Most people aren't willing to stick out their necks for others. Hell, even the blog entry noted people who secretly went up to him and thanked him for speaking out. I have spoken out and have been thanked similarly, and honestly other than feeling better for about 5 minutes for having spoken up, nothing good really comes from it. At that point you just look insubordinate to management.

 

[Visualante]

Sure, there isn't a studio that's 100% perfect (Well, except Valve and ND maybe ), but all the BS I thought we had is nothing to the serious BS they have at Rockstar. Wow.

I read a story which I can't cite saying that HL2 was a horrible time at Valve, I think that's no big secret. Pixar themselves had issues with Toy Story 2. Nobody is exempt from this, they can just learn and get better.

 

[Drewsky]

Amazing to me that such a great game can come out of such a horrible work experience.

 

[EatChildren]

edit: It also stems from not following a design/development process.

While I'm still breaking into the industry, the main complaint and problem from pretty much every person in the industry I've spoken to boils down to people not following design and development process.

Companies are either too rigid or too loose. In the case of the former, they have incompetent power tripping upper staff who cannot efficiently manage the project and have no idea what they are doing, but refuse to take responsibility or control of their mess and blow up whenever anybody tries to step in and offer advice. In the case of the latter, the development process has no structure or direction. Communication is almost non-existant, and everybody is trying to force their own pet projects into the main project, with nobody with the appropriate experience and 'vision' to direct the project down the recommended path.

These problems exist in many other, if not most industries, but it doesn't help that the gaming industry is still so juvenile. It really needs a union.

 

[CrankyJay]

These problems exist in many other, if not most industries, but it doesn't help that the gaming industry is still so juvenile. It really needs a union.

I am pretty much anti-union in any format. People just need to stand up for themselves, but most people that get into game development are gamers themselves and my opinion of them is they are most likely a non-confrontational bunch.