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[Somnid]

I'm not sure people know how to differentiate Nintendo market speak.

"No plans to make GBA Ambassador games available generally"

"That's just marketing bullshit!"

2 years later

"Seriously WTF Nintendo?"

I think we'll have a better picture when Wii U GBA games come but while I predict they still try it I certainly can't expect it.

 

[KojiKnight]

The OP is correct: GBA games are run using a modified DS BC mode. The 3DS has four firmwares: two 3DS-mode firmware (standard and safe-mode), the DSi/DS mode firmware and the GBA mode firmware.

The DS BC mode only has a suspend feature because the DS already had a standard one. Pressing "home" in a DS game on a 3DS merely trigger a "lid closed" command. If you do it while playing a multiplayer game, like Mario Kart, the game will not be paused and still runs in the background.

Man you have such great insights into the hardware, you really should add that information to http://3dbrew.org/wiki/Main_Page

All of those professional hardware and software hackers would love you to tell your secrets on this.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Plus the ambassadors got them for free where others would have to pay.

Plus, it's been nearly two years. The money I would have saved on a 3DS has been spent many times over.

 

[Beelzebub]

The NES games never turned off the 3DS OS. If they were emulating the GBA games why would they turn off the extra functionality?

the NES games did used to turn off the 3DS OS and as they were released through eshop you could updated them to give them the extra features and let you play without having to shut out from the OS

 

[DanteRavenkin]

I'll preface my post with this: I am a Nintendo fan. That doesn't mean I can't see their faults though. My take on why GBA VC is coming to Wii U and not 3DS? Weak Wii U sales. Hang, on a sec, let me finish.

3DS is already selling like mad, that's good for everybody. Wii U needs something to jump start their sales. So GBA VC is a trojan horse of sorts. The GBA had an astounding library of games, and Nintendo knows that if they were made available once more, some people would buy the hardware just to play them. Wii U is that hardware. So Wii U will get the likes of GBA Castlevania, Fire Emblem, and so on and so forth. But the biggest reason I personally think Nintendo is doing GBA on Wii U?

A translated version of Mother 3/Mother Collection.

 

[backlot]

the NES games did used to turn off the 3DS OS and as they were released through eshop you could updated them to give them the extra features and let you play without having to shut out from the OS

They absolutely didn't turn off the OS. I played Metroid using the 3DS Game Notes feature. They didn't have manuals or save states but that's about it.

I'll preface my post with this: I am a Nintendo fan. That doesn't mean I can't see their faults though. My take on why GBA VC is coming to Wii U and not 3DS? Weak Wii U sales. Hang, on a sec, let me finish.

3DS is already selling like mad, that's good for everybody. Wii U needs something to jump start their sales. So GBA VC is a trojan horse of sorts. The GBA had an astounding library of games, and Nintendo knows that if they were made available once more, some people would buy the hardware just to play them. Wii U is that hardware. So Wii U will get the likes of GBA Castlevania, Fire Emblem, and so on and so forth. But the biggest reason I personally think Nintendo is doing GBA on Wii U?

A translated version of Mother 3/Mother Collection.

Would GBA games really be a huge selling point for Wii U? Anybody buying a Wii U for the GBA games will surely be disappointed when Nintendo starts releasing only one VC game a month.

 

[Snkfanatic]

I really wish we could get them. I also find the whole notion of the ambassador program just so damn odd. They made the titles available to those people yet they won't throw them up on the eshop? Why....?? I know I would buy at least a few of them right now if they were up there.

 

[Odrion]

It already does good GBA emulation.

It should have SNES and Genesis games for sale as well, they're not hard things to emulate, and they'd be a lot more interesting to play again than the hideously outdated games* that are available.

* Oh, so you like that game that's available? That's neat, but that game is a decent gem in the sea of mediocrity.

 

[D-e-f-]

This is why I use my Vita for my gba games now.

Thumbs up for admitting to pirating games.

 

[Eric C]

It already does good GBA emulation.

Are people even reading the OP?

He's proposing the GBA doesn't emulate at all and is playing the Ambassador GBA games because it uses a hardware backwards compatibility mode.

Like the PS3 did originally with PS2 games, like the Wii did with Gamecube games. That wasn't emulation, it was hardware.

 

[Jotamide]

I'm sorry Nintendo fans, but Nintendo like any other company is more concerned about making money than having perfect native backward compatibility on their systems.

They'll squeeze every penny they can out of the GB/GBC era before moving on to the GBA. Any other altruistic argument is just plain fooling yourselves.

 

[Onemic]

Thumbs up for admitting to pirating games.

lol

thumbs up for not knowing I own every single game I emulate. Try again.

 

[SolsticeZero]

Thumbs up for admitting to pirating games.

Or he could make roms of legitimately owned GBA games. Not everyone who uses homebrew is a pirate.

 

[StarCreator]

It HAS already been done for the 10 Ambassador GBA games that were released.

It's not 100% perfect emulation, but other than systems with the old systems chip inside of it, no emulation is "perfect."
What the Ambassadors have is more than playable, even if a few graphical tweaks would be appreciated (Yoshi's Island and Metroid Fusion could definitely look a bit better. It woul dbe more than perfect for playing Advance Wars, that's for sure.

Read the OP, or even the post only three above yours, that mention that it's not emulation at all:

The OP is correct: GBA games are run using a modified DS BC mode. The 3DS has four firmwares: two 3DS-mode firmware (standard and safe-mode), the DSi/DS mode firmware and the GBA mode firmware.

The DS BC mode only has a suspend feature because the DS already had a standard one. Pressing "home" in a DS game on a 3DS merely trigger a "lid closed" command. If you do it while playing a multiplayer game, like Mario Kart, the game will not be paused and still runs in the background.

 

[feint_ruled]

Startlingly verbose OP, but I think I get it. You're saying that due to how the 3DS runs GBA games (natively), it pretty much locks out the entire OS and as such it does not meet some minimum quality requirements which mean Nintendo will not OK them for sale.
This decision having been made (presumably it could have been as far back as pre-launch), they then felt free to offload their ambassador games as there would be no direct financial loss.

It has the ring of truth to it!

 

[jwhit28]

I just don't understand why Nintendo would think that it is unacceptable to release without save states. Knock a $1 off if you think it's necessary. GBA games on Wii U isn't a proper solution.

 

[Mit-]

All sounds very plausible. Although it's not the general public that would bitch about the lack of features if they were to release GBA VC games with nothing extra such as save states and game suspension.

It's the enthusiasts and people you'd find on a site like this.

Also lol at thinking GBA-VC-exclusivity on Wii U is any kind of substantial selling point that Nintendo would consider. It's not. They need far, FAR stronger selling points to make the Wii U take off in a way that even slightly resembles the Wii craze. And lol at thinking they're ever going to release Mother 3 in any region other than Japan as well.

 

[plagiarize]

even if emulation isn't possible, I would definitely like more GBA releases than just the ambassador titles I have currently.

 

[Akey]

Why release everything when they can stagger and spotlight game to game like they have always done with vc releases.

If they just resold the games emulated and released everything they had a right to with nothing added like the ability to save anywhere what reason would most people have in re buying this when like someone above said emulate all the game free on VITA.

 

[feint_ruled]

If this is true, I think the deal-breaker has to be the no sleeping when the lid is closed. I could see them letting the rest slide, not so much that.

 

[backlot]

All sounds very plausible. Although it's not the general public that would bitch about the lack of features if they were to release GBA VC games with nothing extra such as save states and game suspension.

It's the enthusiasts and people you'd find on a site like this.

Also lol at thinking GBA-VC-exclusivity on Wii U is any kind of substantial selling point that Nintendo would consider. It's not. They need far, FAR stronger selling points to make the Wii U take off in a way that even slightly resembles the Wii craze. And lol at thinking they're ever going to release Mother 3 in any region other than Japan as well.

How much of the general public is even buying Virtual Console games? Virtual Console in general seems like something that would cater more towards enthusiasts than anything else. I think that's probably the same reason GBA games wouldn't be a huge selling point for the Wii U: only enthusiasts would really care.

 

[KojiKnight]

Read the OP, or even the post only three above yours, that mention that it's not emulation at all:

Even if that IS true (I can't find anything anywhere the collaborates it), how in the hell does it preclude other games from being released? Even if it's not "emulation" (by the way, that still is... it's just not SOFTWARE emulation) it still doesn't preclude other games from being released the same way for money.

 

[heyf00L]

Professional Sony devs got the PSP to emulate the PS1 perfectly, and amateur devs got GBA emulated perfectly. Professional Nintendo devs can certainly get a perfect GBA emulator working on 3DS. It is plenty powerful for that.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Hm apparently new thread up saying Emily Rogers claims they're looking into making Wii U VC content playable on the 3DS... GBA games pls.

 

[Easy_D]

You didn't read. They are run natively, and thus are limited to the GBA's functions.

This is emulation vs native running, not "playing" or "not playing".

The thing I don't get about the 3DS "Native" thing is. If DS/GBA are truly run 100% natively, how does the Start/Select trick work to begin with? The 3DS has some amount of control over how the games run obviously or you wouldn't be allowed to choose between stretched or pixel perfect display.

 

[backlot]

Even if that IS true (I can't find anything anywhere the collaborates it), how in the hell does it preclude other games from being released? Even if it's not "emulation" (by the way, that still is... it's just not SOFTWARE emulation) it still doesn't preclude other games from being released the same way for money.

It doesn't. The OP does include his reasoning for why they aren't selling GBA games in his first post though.

Honestly, I'd be more likely to buy GBA games if they had feature parity with other VC games. Maybe they figured they'd just sell better on Wii U where they can support additional functionality and it just wasn't worth the effort to release them half-done on the 3DS.

 

[Mit-]

The thing I don't get about the 3DS "Native" thing is. If DS/GBA are truly run 100% natively, how does the Start/Select trick work to begin with? The 3DS has some amount of control over how the games run obviously or you wouldn't be allowed to choose between stretched or pixel perfect display.

I'm not sure, but I would assume the 3DS has some form of a graphics chip, no?

 

[Beer Monkey]

If they put out Wario Ware Twisted, I'll sell my GBA Micro.

Hey, did they ever fix the inaccurate colors in the Ambassador games? That was irritating.

 

[Astral/H3X]

Even if that IS true (I can't find anything anywhere the collaborates it), how in the hell does it preclude other games from being released? Even if it's not "emulation" (by the way, that still is... it's just not SOFTWARE emulation) it still doesn't preclude other games from being released the same way for money.

Software emulation can be tweaked and have things added to it. Hardware can't -- if you turn on the things that would do so, it'd screw with the code. It's... hard to explain, someone who DOES the emulator work would be better able to explain WHY software vs hardware has this discrepancy.
They aren't not releasing them because they can't, it's because consumers will be confused as to why Link's Awakening has this really fucking cool save state thingy, but Minish Cap doesn't.

heyFool, the PSP does not perfectly emulate the PS1. It does so far as many people can see in a lot of games, but from my time of having them, there were still sound pops and Wild Arms in particular is a frequent crasher.
Popular games will work better than obscure games with a software emulator. A hardware emulation solution will have everything working perfectly, so far as the original could do.

EDIT: The Start/Select thing happens before it boots into GBA/DS mode, from what I can tell. I'm not exactly sure as to how it does it, on a technical level, but I'd imagine there's something in between it rendering it, and it slapping it on the screen, that it hands instructions to before the GBA mode takes over.

 

[Eric C]

If this is true, I think the deal-breaker has to be the no sleeping when the lid is closed. I could see them letting the rest slide, not so much that.

That is my opinion too.

While save states and other OS features are nice. I think GBA games not going into sleep mode is the deal breaker, and probably the main reason GBA games aren't on the eShop.

However most people are very happy with imperfect emulation, see SNE9X vs BSNES. So people would probably be very happy with an emulator just as capable as the PSP-GBA emulator, even if it's not up to Nintendo's standards.

 

[Easy_D]

I'm not sure, but I would assume the 3DS has some form of a graphics chip, no?

Yeah but if it was running everything natively, the 3DS shouldn't be able to hook stretched mode or 1:1 mode. I dunno, just thinking it might not be impossible for them to actually run the 3DS backend at the same time. Unless, of course (which might be likely) they downclock the hardware like the Wii does when running Gamecube software.

Still I doubt it's impossible.

 

[M3d10n]

Man you have such great insights into the hardware, you really should add that information to http://3dbrew.org/wiki/Main_Page

All of those professional hardware and software hackers would love you to tell your secrets on this.

That's where I took that info from, lol.

 

[defferoo]

sounds plausible. the 3ds can run ds games natively and the ds hardware can run gba games natively since the ds processors were basically higher clocked versions of the gba ones. its likely that gba games run fine on 3ds.

this is probably also true of gamecube games on wii u. since the gamecube hardware is a subset of wii hardware.. seems like a trend to me. if only nintendo could make wii u controllers look like gamecube controllers when it runs in gamecube mode, we could even have gamecube vc titles that run natively on wii u

 

[Mit-]

Yeah but if it was running everything natively, the 3DS shouldn't be able to hook stretched mode or 1:1 mode. I dunno, just thinking it might not be impossible for them to actually run the 3DS backend at the same time. Unless, of course (which might be likely) they downclock the hardware like the Wii does when running Gamecube software.

Still I doubt it's impossible.

Well, I'm assuming the GBA did not have a dedicated graphics chip and that the 3DS does, thus, it could stretch/filter the output to the screen independently of whatever the CPU is doing.

Again I have no clue if that's true, but that's what I would assume

heyFool, the PSP does not perfectly emulate the PS1. It does so far as many people can see in a lot of games, but from my time of having them, there were still sound pops and Wild Arms in particular is a frequent crasher.
Popular games will work better than obscure games with a software emulator. A hardware emulation solution will have everything working perfectly, so far as the original could do.

Yeah, it only appears to be a good emulator as well because they test and configure it for the games they release officially. If you try to run other ROMs that were not released on the store, you often run into problems. A "perfect" emulator would not run into problems for any game you run on it. I can't think of any perfect emulators, although I believe someone mentioned that a perfect SNES emulator now exists, and requires a ton of processing power.

 

[Mit-]

whoops double post

 

[Astral/H3X]

In all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if the screen itself had some weird hardware that did that. It's not some super particularly fantastic scaling it's doing. :/ More likely though is that it's the second core on the 3DS, which would be free to do whatever the hell it damn wants to.

The only thing stopping Gamecube games from running on Wii U is a software based check, which you can bypass.
The thing stopping Gamecube games from being played is the lack of Controller/Memory Card ports, that the GCN part could recognize. If they found a way to pass that through the USB to a weird hub it might work, but that'd be making a dedicated peripheral for a 12 year old system, so I doubt they'll release specific hardware for it.

EDIT:
"Yeah, it only appears to be a good emulator as well because they test and configure it for the games they release officially. If you try to run other ROMs that were not released on the store, you often run into problems. A "perfect" emulator would not run into problems for any game you run on it. I can't think of any perfect emulators, although I believe someone mentioned that a perfect SNES emulator now exists, and requires a ton of processing power."
I bought Wild Arms straight off the PSN and onto my PSP, before I ever even hacked it. It crashed. It had problems.
It crashed rather frequently, to the point that I stopped playing. I then tweaked a setting (something you don't need to do on Nintendo's), and then it stopped crashing as often, but would still crash.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Please Nintendo release GBA games on the eShop.

 

[Ken Masters]

We are seriously discussing if the 3DS can handle fucking SNES emulation?


Jesus Christ the Nintendo sympathizers are a frightening bunch

 

[Zeroth]

It's probably not powerful enough for the accurate emulation that Nintendo wants out of it. Or there's some other technical issues; Sound for example.

The 3DS has 2 CPUs, one being for games and the other for background stuff. Considering a DS can software emulate GBA games with a specific flashcart (and the PSP can emulate them without any addon), do you really believe a single CPU is not powerful enough to emulate it properly? And even then, it's worth noting nowadays devs can use both CPUs, so that makes the hardware limitation even more ridiculous.

 

[Easy_D]

Well, I'm assuming the GBA did not have a dedicated graphics chip and that the 3DS does, thus, it could stretch/filter the output to the screen independently of whatever the CPU is doing.

Again I have no clue if that's true, but that's what I would assume



Yeah, it only appears to be a good emulator as well because they test and configure it for the games they release officially. If you try to run other ROMs that were not released on the store, you often run into problems. A "perfect" emulator would not run into problems for any game you run on it. I can't think of any perfect emulators, although I believe someone mentioned that a perfect SNES emulator now exists, and requires a ton of processing power.

That would be bSNES, requires at least a decent dualcore to run and not all games run well. But it's a joy to use.

The 3DS has 2 CPUs, one being for games and the other for background stuff. Considering a DS can software emulate GBA games with a specific flashcart (and the PSP can emulate them without any addon), do you really believe a single CPU is not powerful enough to emulate it properly? And even then, it's worth noting nowadays devs can use both CPUs, so that makes the hardware limitation even more ridiculous.

Well, VBA requires a 600mhz cpu to run properly, I don't think either of the 3DS cores are clocked at 600mhz. Not that I don't think Nintendo couldn't code a more efficient emulator, but still.

 

[Astral/H3X]

The 3DS has 2 CPUs, one being for games and the other for background stuff. Considering a DS can software emulate GBA games with a specific flashcart (and the PSP can emulate them without any addon), do you really believe a single CPU is not powerful enough to emulate it properly? And even then, it's worth noting nowadays devs can use both CPUs, so that makes the hardware limitation even more ridiculous.

It can software emulate GBA games...fucking terribly.
I have the DSTwo. It sucks ass at GBA.
Zero Mission is enough to prove that, thing skipped to the point of having like 10fps total, or had shitty sound if you turn the skipping down.

 

[Floex]

This is why I use my Vita for my gba games now.

Also there's no way the 3DS isn't powerful enough to emulate gba games. The original psp could, and the 3DS is more powerful than a psp. There's no reason it can't be released on VC. It's just incompetence.

You're able to put GBA games on Vita?! Ooh is it simple to do?

 

[Alec]

I do not believe they are being ran natively. Is there proof to the contrary?

 

[Beer Monkey]

It can software emulate GBA games...fucking terribly.
I have the DSTwo. It sucks ass at GBA.
Zero Mission is enough to prove that, thing skipped to the point of having like 10fps total, or had shitty sound if you turn the skipping down.

How's the SNES on DSTwo?

I do not believe they are being ran natively. Is there proof to the contrary?

If they were emulated it would be simple for the system to pause them like it does with NES, GB, etc.

 

[Zeroth]

Well, VBA requires a 600mhz cpu to run properly, I don't think either of the 3DS cores are clocked at 600mhz. Not that I don't think Nintendo couldn't code a more efficient emulator, but still.

I'm inclined to believe a GBA emulator built for the 3DS would be able to run far more efficiently.

It can software emulate GBA games...fucking terribly.
I have the DSTwo. It sucks ass at GBA.
Zero Mission is enough to prove that, thing skipped to the point of having like 10fps total, or had shitty sound if you turn the skipping down.

That's true, the emulation sucks... but that's because the bulk of the processing is done in the cart itself. It's hard to imagine the 3DS can't surpass it.

 

[Alec]

If they were emulated it would be simple for the system to pause them like it does with NES, GB, etc.

While what you say does make sense, it isn't what I would call proof.

 

[Beer Monkey]

That's true, the emulation sucks... but that's because the bulk of the processing is done in the cart itself. It's hard to imagine the 3DS can't surpass it.

I would certainly hope that the 3DS is a few times more powerful than a DS + DSTwo.

 

[Beer Monkey]

While what you say does make sense, it isn't what I would call proof.

Honestly the Ambassador stuff happened pretty damned fast, too. There may not be 'proof' but it's pretty much an Occam's Razor situation.

 

[optimiss]

Professional Sony devs got the PSP to emulate the PS1 perfectly, and amateur devs got GBA emulated perfectly. Professional Nintendo devs can certainly get a perfect GBA emulator working on 3DS. It is plenty powerful for that.

I guarantee you the GBA emulation on PSP is far from perfect. It takes a 3Ghz CPU for a PC to emulate the NES correctly. Most emulators make concessions to get the games to run at a playable framerate. It is close enough that most people don't complain or even notice. Read Byuu's articles on the "State of Emulation" for a better explanation. I have a feeling this is the level of emulation Nintendo strives for.

 

[Berordn]

While what you say does make sense, it isn't what I would call proof.

Doesn't run as a normal 3DS application, home button brings up DS mode quit window
Disables 3DS wi-fi functions - Just like DS mode
No standby - continues running when the lid is closed but shuts off speakers/screen just like GBA mode on the OG DS

There's more evidence in favor of them being run natively than as 3DS applications, if you ignore everything already been stated in this thread.