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[cheezcake]

The paper shows that the drive consistently produces thrust, and importantly, much more than a light sail would be capable of.

The test campaign included a null thrust test effort to identify any mundane sources of impulsive thrust; however, none were identified. Thrust data from forward, reverse, and null suggested that the system was consistently performing with a thrust-to-power ratio of 1.2±0.1  mN/kW.

While it's not the main subject of the paper they discuss a potential explanation for why the drive seems to work.

In short, the supporting physics model used to derive a force based on operating conditions in the test article can be categorized as a nonlocal hidden-variable theory, or pilot-wave theory for short.

Pilot-wave theories are a family of realist interpretations of quantum mechanics that conjecture that the statistical nature of the formalism of quantum mechanics is due to an ignorance of an underlying more fundamental real dynamics, and that microscopic particles follow real trajectories over time just like larger classical bodies do.

Pilot-wave theory is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that is deterministic. Which is pretty unlike the most commonly accepted interpretation of quantum mechanics, the Copenhagen interpretation, in which particles don't have well defined positions until they're observed.

They do note there's still some testing to be done to completely rule out potential error sources.

Although thermal shift was addressed to a degree with this test campaign, future testing efforts should seek to develop testing approaches that are immune to CG shifts from thermal expansion. As indicated in Sec. II.C.8, a modified Cavendish balance approach could be employed to definitively rule out thermal.

I was hugely skeptical of this at first, but I may be eating crow real soon

Link to paper.

 

[Amalthea]

Exciting news.

Pilot-wave theories are a family of realist interpretations of quantum mechanics that conjecture that the statistical nature of the formalism of quantum mechanics is due to an ignorance of an underlying more fundamental real dynamics, and that microscopic particles follow real trajectories over time just like larger classical bodies do.

Well duh...

 

[John Dunbar]

i think i've asked this before, but is there any reason why they can't just attach one of these things to some piece of junk with a transmitter and send it off into space the next time something is sent up there? figure out the why later if it actually works.

 

[HStallion]

Hopefully another small step for mankind. Can't wait to see what comes from this

 

[BocoDragon]

ETA till I can seduce a blue-skinned alien girl?

 

[Fat4all]

ETA till I can seduce a blue-skinned alien girl?

ask your grandkids

 

[jayu26]

This is great. I need to read the actual Paper.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I called it!!!! I said it would be related to pilot-wave!

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=215830395

Now you can even imagine many implications that result from this, such as the waves of one particle affecting other particles. This is shown in the experiment when both droplets circle one another. Presumably, a wave can therefore affect another particle even if the particle that was driven by that wave isn't anywhere close, just like the wakes of a boat. This I think will be shown to be occurring with the Em Drive, or in future experiments.

 

[cheezcake]

Well duh...

Trust me pilot-wave theory has plenty of it's own weirdness, the whole reason that it wasn't commonly accepted was because it has consequences way weirder than the Copenhagen interpretation.

i think i've asked this before, but is there any reason why they can't just attach one of these things to some piece of junk with a transmitter and send it off into space the next time something is sent up there? figure out the why later if it actually works.

Money, if we can figure out if it works or not on the ground no need to waste resources getting one up into space for what may be no result. I imagine if we get another paper which backs up the results and fully accounts for the thermal shift this paper mentions, then that'll push testing in space to be sometime real soon.

 

[Branduil]

So not only is it still possible the drive works, it might actually prove pilot wave theory? That would be pretty huge if true.

 

[fanboi]

Huh...

Ah...

I see...

Pilot wave theory? Lay it down to me like I was a new born sucking on my mamas titts

 

[sprsk]

Finally some good news!

 

[A Serious Man]

Finally some good news!

It's too bad Trump will shut down NASA in order to fund the wall.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Huh...

Ah...

I see...

Pilot wave theory? Lay it down to me like I was a new born sucking on my mamas titts

Check the thread I linked to

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1271856

 

[Übermatik]

Huh...

Ah...

I see...

Pilot wave theory? Lay it down to me like I was a new born sucking on my mamas titts

WHO'S A CUTE LITTLE BABY, YES YOU ARE, YES YOU ARE

OOOOGABOOGA

 

[Sulik2]

Huh...

Ah...

I see...

Pilot wave theory? Lay it down to me like I was a new born sucking on my mamas titts

Particles surf on waves basically. Solves the double slit experiment without needing all the weird observer determines location stuff of quantum mechanics. But has its own bizarreness,

 

[low-G]

It's too bad Trump will shut down NASA in order to fund the wall.

He has to or we might discover and destroy the Reptilian Europa base.

 

[Amalthea]

Trust me pilot-wave theory has plenty of it's own weirdness, the whole reason that it wasn't commonly accepted was because it has consequences way weirder than the Copenhagen interpretation.

Gotta look into that. Any key points towards its weirdness?

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

i think i've asked this before, but is there any reason why they can't just attach one of these things to some piece of junk with a transmitter and send it off into space the next time something is sent up there? figure out the why later if it actually works.

Someone in another thread a few weeks ago said the Americans and the Chinese are working to test one of these in space.

 

[Cromat]

I called it!!!! I said it would be related to pilot-wave!

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=215830395

I remember you saying that. Hats off.

 

[N.Domixis]

Check the thread I linked to

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1271856

That sounds lame, so it's possible it's not because particles aren't there until looked at?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Does the paper mention if it is scaleable? IE a larger drive and/or more energy to make more thrust?

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

It's too bad Trump will shut down NASA in order to fund the wall.

Why spend money up there when we can spend money down here!

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Gotta look into that. Any key points towards its weirdness?

There was a thread about it a few months ago
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1271856

 

[Detox]

So if this is true the implications are free energy?

 

[RoyalFool]

So matter is like the npcs in GTA?

We really are in a simulation aren't we..

 

[Easy_D]

Wait if quantum shit is deterministic, does that mean free will is an illusion?

 

[cheezcake]

Gotta look into that. Any key points towards its weirdness?

The entire theory is explicitly nonlocal. A.K.A as long as particles are guided by the same pilot wave they can affect each other instantly across the universe. Which is basically generalising quantum entanglement and saying the entire universe works like that and everything is somehow interconnected.

 

[Amalthea]

There was a thread about it a few months ago
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1271856

Thanks. The pilot-wave theory seems interesting as in how the waves can control multiple particles at once.

The entire theory is explicitly nonlocal. A.K.A as long as particles are guided by the same pilot wave they can affect each other instantly across the universe. Which is basically generalising quantum entanglement and saying the entire universe works like that and everything is somehow interconnected.

Makes sense even if it might sound a bit esoterical.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I called it!!!! I said it would be related to pilot-wave!

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=215830395

As in the Bohm interpretation of QM? interesting

In short, the supporting physics model used to derive a force based on operating conditions in the test article can be categorized as a nonlocal hidden-variable theory.

Fuck yeah!

 

[Par Score]

So if this is true the implications are free energy?

... no?

This is reactionless thrust, which is a huge deal for spaceflight, but has limited non-space applications.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

Exciting news.


Well duh...

Pilot wave theory always seemed infinitely more sensible to me. I've always had a hard time with the idea of "measurement" collapsing a wave function and how poorly defined/understood that action seemed to be. This could be huge, like, einstein huge for our furthering of the Standard model.

 

[gaugebozo]

i think i've asked this before, but is there any reason why they can't just attach one of these things to some piece of junk with a transmitter and send it off into space the next time something is sent up there? figure out the why later if it actually works.

"Musk says SpaceX's latest rocket in development, the Falcon Heavy, will be able to do it for as little as $1,000 a pound. Historically, that's pretty low. Using the Space Shuttle to get a pound of something to the Space Station, for example, costs around $10,000"

You need to be sure it's worth testing before you spend a million dollars to do it.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

It's too bad Trump will shut down NASA in order to fund the wall.

Believe it or not, while Trump will still probably unfortunately gut the Earth sciences portion of NASA, he is actually really high on renewing efforts for extraterrestrial exploration.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

To infinity and beyond!!

When can we achieve warp speed?

:3

 

[G.ZZZ]

... no?

This is reactionless thrust, which is a huge deal for spaceflight, but has limited non-space applications.

Reactionless thrust IS free energy, just change your frame of reference to see why.

If reactionless thrust is real, it essentially mean that we can drain out kinetical energy out from the universe's kinetical energy. Which means infinite energy for all intent and purposes. Color me still way skeptical on this.

 

[BowieZ]

It's too bad Trump will shut down NASA in order to fund the wall.

Not reaching out into the galaxy is consistent with Trump's isolationist policies and preference for Caucasian homosapiens.

 

[Woorloog]

Reactionless thrust IS free energy, just change your frame of reference to see why.

If reactionless thrust is real, it essentially mean that we can drain out kinetical energy out from the universe's kinetical energy. Which means infinite energy for all intent and purposes. Color me still way skeptical on this.

It generates a bit over newton of thrust per megawatt. It doesn't generate thrust from nothing. It is no free energy.

I highly doubt you can get that megawatt back from one newton force.

 

[TyrantII]

i think i've asked this before, but is there any reason why they can't just attach one of these things to some piece of junk with a transmitter and send it off into space the next time something is sent up there? figure out the why later if it actually works.

Money.

It's a lot cheaper and takes less time to just do the science here.

ETA till I can seduce a blue-skinned alien girl?

Dude, you don't want to get pregnant

 

[siddx]

Whenever I read about this I always feel like I'm reading a SCP story about and end of the world scenario where man tries to use an scp to improve the world and ends up causing a end of world scenario where some unimaginable horror enters our reality.

 

[low-G]

Reactionless thrust IS free energy, just change your frame of reference to see why.

If reactionless thrust is real, it essentially mean that we can drain out kinetical energy out from the universe's kinetical energy. Which means infinite energy for all intent and purposes. Color me still way skeptical on this.

Are you saying that reactionless thrust <===> thrustless reaction?

 

[A-V-B]

The entire theory is explicitly nonlocal. A.K.A as long as particles are guided by the same pilot wave they can affect each other instantly across the universe. Which is basically generalising quantum entanglement and saying the entire universe works like that and everything is somehow interconnected.

Wait... instantly?

For real?

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Wait... instantly?

For real?

Yes. Cause and effect gets real muddy at this level of physics.

Edit: Also really thrilled to here that the Drive is defying expectations. In a year that's been, well, 2016, the continued success of the drive under test conditions has been a nice spot of hope.

 

[TyrantII]

Wait... instantly?

For real?

Thats entanglement, just another explanation as to why. It's already a verified phenomena.

So, if pilot wave is right, we won't need Heisenberg compensators for our transporters kill and reconstitution boxes.

 

[tanooki27]

this is a huge fucking deal, no?

 

[Ether_Snake]

Pilot wave theory always seemed infinitely more sensible to me. I've always had a hard time with the idea of "measurement" collapsing a wave function and how poorly defined/understood that action seemed to be. This could be huge, like, einstein huge for our furthering of the Standard model.

I think there is still room for collapsing a wave function in PWT based on "observation". I said that in the thread I linked to; imagine that the universe, out of a need to be self-preserving (either as an entity or a state, as in either as something that exists or not, or a certain state of existance such as hot or cold or tepid, whatever), at any time, it tests every outcome. To determine which to pick, it needs to know which one favors best its own state-preservation.

One way to test that would be to go through every possible future "branch" of possibilities in parallel, and as soon as it finds one where observation is made it stops the evaluation of all other possibilities and picks this one. Why? Because it is the path of least resistance; the one that needed the fewest numbers of steps from its current approved state to another, hence the one that most favors a stable continuity.

If it had picked another possibility that would have required more steps to find an observation, it would mean there would be a much bigger gap between the current state's "believability " and the next, and if it kept doing that it would either end far from its desired state or cease to exist, effectively becoming increasingly chaotic.

So with PWT I think there could still be an overlap of possibilities, but the past determines the outcome. The different futures exist as a probability, but which to take is simply a matter of finding which contradicts the past less than any other.

 

[G.ZZZ]

It generates a bit over newton of thrust per megawatt. It doesn't generate thrust from nothing. It is no free energy.

I highly doubt you can get that megawatt back from one newton force.

Thrust is not energy. Thrust get translated into energy given a frame of reference. The issue is that this thing being massless it create thrust independently of the frame of reference. Which means that a certain point this will create far more energy than it need to be inputted in.


This is KE :

Thrust give an accelleration. Which means that it exist a v that give a DeltaKE that is greater than the inputted energy. Which is essentially free energy (or better, energy extracted from the universe's well).

 

[A-V-B]

I think there is still room for collapsing a wave function in PWT. I said that in the thread I liked to; imagine that the universe, out of a need to be self-preserving (either as an entity or a state, as in either as something that exists or not, or a certain state of existance such as hot or cold or tepid, whatever), at any time, it tests every outcome. To determine which to pick, it needs to know which one favors best its own preservation.

If you're talking about simplicity, a completely deterministic set of rules is... that's as simple as you can get, isn't it? No need to waste energy testing anything if you've already got the results from moment one.

 

[Messofanego]

ETA till I can seduce a blue-skinned alien girl?

If you can't get with a human girl, what chance do you have with a more advanced species?

 

[Garmonbozia]

Goddamn this is complicated.

Still, really great news.