Why? It's not as if the US public gives a shit about whether their government violates human rights and the law. Just look at GAF, even the torture thread only got 8 pages. Also Obama had the Cuba news to distract from that anyway.
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New Clues In Sony Hack Point To Insiders, Away from North Korea
- Thread starter Funky Papa
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Why? It's not as if the US public gives a shit about whether their government violates human rights and the law. Just look at GAF, even the torture thread only got 8 pages. Also Obama had the Cuba news to distract from that anyway.
Of course you need evidence. In order for a theory to be plausible, it requires evidence. If I said a Moose was responsible for the hacks and created some nonsense article about it, would you say "I don't need evidence, I haven't taken a side, I'm just saying look at the big picture maaaan!"
Whatever you want to claim about where you stand on this issue, you continually in this thread keep mocking those who are believing the governments story or not buying this one as some sort of larger example of citizen gullibility regarding government stories. But I have to say if your heart didn't really lie closer to one side, maybe it'd be a good time to stop making posts like this one.
Right, you cast your argument in the context of "I don't believe the official story and many of the reasons I don't believe it just happen to perfectly align with the theory being presented in the OP" whilst simultaneously mocking those who are showing that the FBI - at this juncture - has an infinitely stronger case, whilst also trying to act like you're beyond the fray.
It's not "short sighted" to go where the first finger points... provided the evidence is there to support it. Right now, the bulk of the evidence we have is there to support that theory over this one. Until that changes, then there's no reason to start trying to believe alternative theories with close to zero evidence.
And remember, just because you currently think this government theory is more plausible - and the evidence presented indisputably paints the governments case as stronger than the nonsense in the OP - it doesn't mean your mind is closed to there being alternative possibilities. When such evidence comes to show us those possibilities are likely, opinions will be swayed.
Present the evidence. This OP has essentially none of any worth.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
a theory is a theory. You need evidence to confirm whether a theory is an actuality. I can theorize many things without evidence, just based off observations, but until I have actual evidence that support my theory, can that theory actually become proof.
lastly, Dude I literally said "the reason I am hesitant in believe in such and such is because such and such" I didn't make any firm statements or confirmations. Im just speculating.
bulk of evidence? what is the bulk of evidence. The FBI hasn't given us a "Bulk of evidence"
smh
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Even the FBI probably made an educated guess. While they may have evidence other security researchers don't, it could be that they got wrapped up in The Interview motive like the rest of us and rushed to conclusions.
If there were even the suspicion that it was a foreign enemy targeting a domestic business, then it would be prudent for the government to act as if that were the case and set a precedent to confront such activity.
If there were even the suspicion that it was a foreign enemy targeting a domestic business, then it would be prudent for the government to act as if that were the case and set a precedent to confront such activity.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/update-on-sony-investigation
You cannot expect them to give out any actual information or code though, that would be irresponsible. It's ultimately a matter of trust and reason.
I do know the conclusions they published and yes, they are circumstantial and flimsy at best. And its not evidence.
So yeah, currently you have to trust FBI that they are not lying/ screwing it up.
The burden of proof isn't on the FBI, it's on the doubters who claim that they are wrong. They already went on record with saying it was them and presenting what they found.
If someone wants to go on record and overturn their claims, they can go right ahead.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
yea, that evidence is basically "a hack seems similar to another hack before"
that's just not a "bulk of evidence" or definitive enough for me.
still wait and see
Patapwn
Member
Forget their credentials, in this situation only evidence should be considered, not spitballing speculation.
Why are people so adverse to the idea that this was indeed north korea? It's like they want to believe otherwise
I know and I agree with you on this. I just thought it might be helpful to post the link to the FBI, for those that have forgotten about what information they actually released.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
the irony in this statement is it could be reversed and still apply based on available evidence
Not all theories are EQUAL. That's the problem with your entire premise. The FBI's theory has strong evidence that, if Norse was truly serious about their "investigation" and truly had the skills they said they do, could easily attempt to analyze the data and find out if any of the FBI's claims ring true or not. Instead, they started their investigation on a biased premise and came up with almost zilch evidence for their alternative theory. Not a strong day for them.
Ok, so say I make a thread tomorrow and I say "Guys, I have a theory that aliens are behind the hack on Sony" and then present close to zero evidence, except some obscure nonsense that would find a good home on Ancient Aliens on the History Channel.
Would you think the theory was:
1. Worth discussing? And if so, why not just start a billion threads over each of these nonsense theories? Well, I have a theory a Moose did it. Ok, well I know someone who hates Ken Kutaragi and always wanted to get back at Sony. Alright, well I have a clue that someone was so angry at how much ANNIE sucked that they decided to take down the company!
2. Plausible? Yes? If yes, why? If no, why not? Would you go around mocking people's support of the government's position - which has plenty of evidence already detailed multiple times and which you're now willfully ignoring as convenient - simply because it is a government agency making the claim?
That's the problem. Not all theories are created equal. A theory that has tons of corroborating evidence is far more sound than a theory which has none.
The FBI presented their theory and went over a bulletpoint list of the things they found that make them believe it's connected to NK. Now, in order to cast shade on that claim you have to go over that itemized list, go over the data from the NK hack, and systematically either disprove that the stuff on the list is true or show how it doesn't necessarily indicate a strong connection to NK. Then, if you have an alternative theory you think people should take seriously, you present REAL evidence for your case.. which the OP is devoid of.
Why not?
It's quite fascinating that the whole "incompetent Sony, buuuh, how insecure and stupid are you" got turned into a "poor Sony, those evil North Koreans!!!" in such a small time.
I ask myself why North Koreans would download all those other movies and all that data and shit and then upload the movies to torrent-sites? Why would they? It doesn't make sense. And then finally they go "just kidding, we actually wanted to stop that terri-bad movie from getting shown, that noone would have watched anyway. 9/11. terrorists!!!". And finally when someone says "Hey, it was you, wasn't it?" they are going "oh no, we are so afraid, nope we weren't it at all".
Well what did you expect?
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
smh
there isn't a TON of evidence...like, seriously...at least that the general public knows about. so I can still be wait and see.
how is that hard to understand
what is your definition of TON?
It is quite similiar to the Sands attack by Iranian hackers. And as a matter of fact, the malware has been on the market for seven years. Hackers reusing freely available malware? Unheard of.
Well....1) we don't like North Korea. 2) They have threatened us in the past. 3) They've been developing/testing nuclear weapons in violation of UN Security Council resolutions. 4) We love to sanction them (which is exactly what the U.S. government suggested we do in response to the hack). 5) They're the perfect scapegoat since no country would try and rebuff any reason to further sanction NK.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that two enemies might lie about each other.
The burden of proof isn't on the FBI, it's on the doubters who claim that they are wrong. They already went on record with saying it was them and presenting what they found.
If someone wants to go on record and overturn their claims, they can go right ahead.
Ummmm....what? The FBI made the accusation that NK was behind the hack. Are you saying that they don't have to prove it?
You can be wait and see, whilst not trying to mock people who believe the governments case is clearly much stronger (it indisputably is) and not trying to prop up this garbage alternative theory with zero real evidence.
Also, saying "smh" a bunch of times doesn't add weight to your posts. For the record.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
For the record, I'm not adverse at all.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
eh double post?
smh
i find it ironic to just blindly believing something without enough evidence or a "TON" of evidence being shown, regardless if it's the government or not. that's my point.
thus the mock.
if you disagree with that, fine. Doesn't change that it's shortsighted.
Lastly, while all theories aren't equal, the theory that the OP posted isn't as far fetched as "aliens hacking sony" and to compare it as such is just silly
smh
i find it ironic to just blindly believing something without enough evidence or a "TON" of evidence being shown, regardless if it's the government or not. that's my point.
thus the mock.
if you disagree with that, fine. Doesn't change that it's shortsighted.
Lastly, while all theories aren't equal, the theory that the OP posted isn't as far fetched as "aliens hacking sony" and to compare it as such is just silly
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That's a two way street. A lot of people want to believe it was North Korea. It's a really sexy idea that the weird and fascinating hermit kingdom hacked a Hollywood studio. The revelation that it was an inside job or a random black hat hacker group would be comparatively mundane.
That's not what's happening. People are saying the OP's evidence is nonsense - which it is - and saying the FBI's case is indisputably stronger, which it also is.
If you want people to not believe NK is behind the hacks, you need to do better than this. With the evidence currently on the table, I'd lean toward the NK theory because I simply follow where the evidence leads. This is by no means a hard fast belief. When such time comes that the evidence leads away from that conclusion, I will gladly change my mind and have zero skin off my back like any true fan of truth.
Remember the good old days when the accuser had to prove their case, not the other way around?
Shining Sunshine
Banned
One article and Neogaf flips their shit taking Believe to the next level.
thisisneogaf.gif
Maybe I should write an article saying Adam Orth did it to bring revenge to the Sony fanboys or something.
thisisneogaf.gif
Maybe I should write an article saying Adam Orth did it to bring revenge to the Sony fanboys or something.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I wouldn't be so automatically confidant in the FBI's conclusion. It's not the "default story". Not because they are lying, necessarily. They're just another group making a guess based on the evidence they have... and there have been plenty of respected security professionals who have disagreed that it was NK. The FBI is under pressure to label a target and assume the worst case scenario, which is a foreign assault.
Let's remember Iraq + WMDs. The government's word isn't gospel. They get things wrong.
Let's remember Iraq + WMDs. The government's word isn't gospel. They get things wrong.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
i don't want people to Not believe or believe anything. I don't think I ever stated 'I do not want people to believe NK is such and such"
Believe what you want to believe, but to just blindly believe without enough evidence is just short sighted and ignorant. Especially based on our government's history.
I don't need to do better than anything, cause I'm still speculating and I have my reasons which I stated. you are trying to make it bigger than it is.
Is this another case where you respond to some imaginary versions of my posts and expect me to respond to that imaginary version?
No all you have done repeatedly is try to get the anti-government conspiracy squad behind you and discredit anyone who believes the FBI's theory is more plausible by mocking them.
Nobody is blindly believing anything. We have evidence we can interpret. One theory is clearly, indisputably stronger based on evidence before us. As has been stated multiple times in this topic that by no means says an alternative theory could NOT be true, but that in order to present a plausible alternative evidence needs to supplant what we already have.
Let's break it down:
* The FBI concludes that it was North Korea who did it.
* The FBI explains why they think North Korea did it
Now, again, what I'm saying is, if anyone wants to disprove or have found evidence that can overturn any of this, they can go right ahead and do so. That's not on the FBI though. Coming up with excuses and presenting flimsy "evidence" is not gonna cut it.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
I didn't repeatedly mock anyone. I made one post that said "LOL Murika"
if that's repeatedly mocking someone, then you're simply crazy.
oh, the evidence that says "this hack seems similar to a hack before"
smh. that's not much of evidence. If that was such strong evidence, i'd be in jail right now because I look similar to many people who have committed crimes.
The words from 31C3 will be interesting on the matter.
Fixed2BeBroken said:
Calling people who think the OP is nonsense "haters", saying people are opposed to other theories - and implicitly, this garbage in the OP - because it "just feels better."
Yeah that's totally kosher.
Fixed2BeBroken said:
You're, like, totally objective man and not taking sides at all.
Elfforkusu
Member
This was pretty clear two weeks ago. The FBI was just blowing smoke up everybody's ass.
The evidence linking this to NK is and has been nonexistent. Unless something turns up, "inside job" is the logical conclusion.
The evidence linking this to NK is and has been nonexistent. Unless something turns up, "inside job" is the logical conclusion.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
who am I repeatedly mocking with those posts though? those are response to other posters and isn't mocking anyone in particular.
you said I was repeatedly mocking someone.
who?
And are you really getting mad about "The Interview" quote which is CLEARLY a joke, based on the Interview and this whole subject. that's lulz worthy.
smh
you're being a bit to serious here.
Fenderputty
Banned
1. We (the western world) didn't like them before. This didn't change our opinions.
2. So what? This in no way explains why we would use them as a scapegoat now.
3. So what? Did this cyber attack have any affect on those relations? We're not attacking them for either offence as well.
4. & 5. The US already sanctions NK and the west doesn't need more reasons to add more.
They didn't get it wrong. They lied. On purpose. They knew exactly what they were doing. The whole purpose was to give a reason to the public, so that they could go to war with Iraq and kill thousands and thousands of people.
They also knew exactly what they were doing when they presented the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador as a nurse back then in 1990, who told a heart-breaking story about Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators and left the babies to die.
They lied about NSA mass surveilance. They lied about torturing people. The government lies. Is that so difficult to get into the head?
They effectively also use the "results" of torture in reports.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He's quoting The Interview, though.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
You may be right. It only underlines the point. But I didn't want to go all into "false evidence/false flag" territory to make the case that just because the FBI says something doesn't make it a rock solid truth that must be overturned before any other possibility is on the table.
They may have a smoking gun or they may be making an educated guess... but they have a motive to look at the evidence in a certain light, and to come to a hasty conclusion for the purposes of political prudence. If there is the smallest possibility it could be NK, you've got to come out and say it is NK. Failing to respond to that possibility would set a bad precedent.
Oddly enough, Norse built IP viking, and the activity on there lately tells me there is a much bigger attack going on in the United States. Russia, China, and various others have been hammering at Seattle, Miami, and Saint Louis the past week or so.
either the attacks are tactically related or a horrible coincidence. either way the psychology of both attacks are completely different.
Sony Pictures had a clear intent, and strong knowledge of their infrastructure to pull of the attack.
either the attacks are tactically related or a horrible coincidence. either way the psychology of both attacks are completely different.
Sony Pictures had a clear intent, and strong knowledge of their infrastructure to pull of the attack.
BocoDragon said:
Context matters. In the previous sentence he says people want to believe this because it makes them feel good, and "haters gonna hate" ain't from the Interview. it's an ancient internet meme. Additionally, the final sentence tying it into The Interview does not change the contextual point behind the post.
Do you even READ what you post? Here I'll break down the bulletpoint list that has been posted eighty times.
● Technical analysis of the data deletion malware used in this attack revealed links to other malware that the FBI knows North Korean actors previously developed.
● There were similarities in specific lines of code.
● There were similarities in encryption algorithms.
● There were similarities in data deletion methods.
● There were similarities in compromised networks.
● The FBI also observed significant overlap between the infrastructure used in this attack and other malicious cyber activity the U.S. government has previously linked directly to North Korea.
● In one example given, the FBI discovered that several Internet protocol (IP) addresses associated with known North Korean infrastructure communicated with IP addresses that were hardcoded into the data deletion malware used in this attack.
● Separately, the tools used in the SPE attack have similarities to a cyber attack in March of last year against South Korean banks and media outlets, which was carried out by North Korea.
And of course like any good investigation, they have far more evidence that they are keeping secret:
FBI said:
So, it's fair to say that without knowing what the other evidence is, as the public we have to determine which theory is plausible given what they DID share.
So, just off this evidence which they released to the public, we can definitively say the theory is far stronger than the nonsense in the OP.
But what I'm curious about now is exactly what evidence are you looking for, a video of Kim Jong-Un laughing and saying "COMMENCE THE HACKING"?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Isn't the normal state of the Internet just one ongoing attack on (mostly) American servers?
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
based on the link provided, provided by the FBI, there were 3 bullet points, and all 3 just essentially stated "this hack seems similar to that hack"
that's literally the tl:dr version and to argue otherwise is silly.
not a Ton of evidence. and definitely not definitive.
I did think this was an inside job or at the very least North korea got some help from someone who is/was associated with Sony.
Firstly how would North Korea even get access to some network run by some movie studio they don't understand?
Second when the hack first came to light and days after, there was no mention of The Interview in it. It seemed like an afterthought they thought they could all of a sudden start mentioning when they realised that North korea wasn't happy with the idea of the interview and so started talking about that as if the hacking was all down to that.
Third, North Korea wouldn't have much understanding of the information that was leaked, including emails discussing Angelina jolie, marvel, etc.
Firstly how would North Korea even get access to some network run by some movie studio they don't understand?
Second when the hack first came to light and days after, there was no mention of The Interview in it. It seemed like an afterthought they thought they could all of a sudden start mentioning when they realised that North korea wasn't happy with the idea of the interview and so started talking about that as if the hacking was all down to that.
Third, North Korea wouldn't have much understanding of the information that was leaked, including emails discussing Angelina jolie, marvel, etc.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I thought they just dumped everything on the internet? It isn't like those stories were highlighted by the hackers. They were uncovered by (ahem) "journalists" who went pouring through the data dump.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
naw they were feeding journalists different info bit by bit.
they dumped the movies tho
Hahaha, you are seriously shitting me right now with this nonsense. If the entire intellectual merit of your argument consists of "if you disagree with my comically reductive interpretation of the FBI's evidence you're being silly" then I think everyone can see this for exactly what it is.
Try harder.
In any event, they supposedly presented their findings to the FBI today so I'm sure if their evidence is as strong as what is in the OP (read: non existent) it'll be similarly laughed out.
Not like this.
Given the current tension overseas between Russia, China, the United States, North Korea, and South Korea, i would say this is definitely in response to hitting their economies.
GMAIL was blocked in China, for example.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
man whatever makes u feel better. you seem to have some hard on for me for whatever reason. get over it brah, cause I'm over it. I stated what I thought already and made it fairly clear. if you wanna keep coming at me, then so be it. others in this thread have also echoed similar thoughts as to me, so it's not like im just being ridiculous.
If you don't want people to deconstruct arguments you make, you shouldn't be on a discussion forum.
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