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[Eteric Rice]

Oblivion is a much prettier version of Morrowind. I won't argue with you about Lair, though I haven't cared much for it so I haven't been paying much attention. Ditto with Forza 2.

What I can say is that AI is math, and entirely programmer-dependant, and if gcfan2k5 wasn't banned he'd give you a more specific breakdown of how almost any modern processor can pull sophisticated AI off (even if it's just extremely closely-approximated with fewer routines). I'm well-aversed to programming but not in the console gaming field - physics and AI (especially AI) aren't as processor-dependant as they are routine/programmer-dependant. Besides, the chips in the PS3/360 are in-order, which makes things even more difficult for coders to implement physics/AI as they would if they were out-of-order like regular PPC chips or x86 arch.

Point I'm trying to make is that for the majority of games out there (and I'm well aware that there are certainly exceptions to the rule) that have been released on the HD hardware are rooted in last-gen game design, and while the texture-resolution bump and effects increases are certainly welcomed, it's nothing that us PC gamers aren't already used to. I never had a problem going from this:

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/doomiii_trite.jpg
to this:
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/manhunt_111803_5.jpg

And if the fact that this RPG-house won't be doing HD-games bugs you, there are plenty of other smaller Japanese studios, like Sakaguchi's and Tri's, that won't be limiting their output to the market-leading Wii. I will say, however, that the Wii's less powerful hardware *IS* capable of less than the PS3 for instance (well, duh) but that most studios will likely only take advantage of it in ways that are easiest to take advantage of - and that's visual quality.

I was thinking about AI yesterday. I think AI was fine for the most part, last generation. If AI keeps getting pushed, wouldn't that mean that the NPC could actually become better than the player, and become a complete bitch to kill? I know for me, it'd run me off. If I can't get past a certain point in a game after so long, I get frustrated and quit.

It's the same with games that have giant lands. Couldn't a game get so big that it's tedius to travel around? And even if they introduce teleportation inside the game, that would just make the extra terrain meaningless.

I think there's a certain point in every aspect of video games that you shouldn't go past. I personally feel Dragon Quest VIII had a big enough world, and fighting games are already a pain with their current AI.

So yeah, for the most part I think you're right. These new games all originate from older games, and rarely do they ever truely surpass the original.

That's just my two cents. I think the Wii will be fine this generation. Your average person really won't be able to tell the difference.

 

[charlequin]

I was thinking about AI yesterday. I think AI was fine for the most part, last generation. If AI keeps getting pushed, wouldn't that mean that the NPC could actually become better than the player, and become a complete bitch to kill?

This kind of problem is why I always :lol at "we need more processing power for AI!!!"

In actuality, most AI routines are fairly simple because most games can be won with a fairly straighforward strategy -- there are almost no electronic games with complexity that's even within miles of something like chess. The effort that goes in is to make the AI less good so the player can compete with it, which is much more a factor of good design and clever choices on the designer's part than throwing more processing power at the AI routines.

Are there areas of AI that can benefit from more processing power? Absolutely: it makes pathfinding algorithms much better, it can be used to make enemies fail in more interesting and believable ways, and it can certainly contribute to more useful computer-controlled teammates... but 90% of games aren't even using the capacity of last gen's systems for AI, much less demanding more.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I was thinking about AI yesterday. I think AI was fine for the most part, last generation. If AI keeps getting pushed, wouldn't that mean that the NPC could actually become better than the player, and become a complete bitch to kill? I know for me, it'd run me off. If I can't get past a certain point in a game after so long, I get frustrated and quit.

Hey I was thinking of making a GIF about that but I'm too lazy. Basically it was how the ghosts in Pac-Man would just stand over the giant dots and stay there, so you couldn't do shit. Or they would block Pac-Man by standing at both ends of the "teleporters" and trap him. But yeah I'm too lazy

BTW we need better AI for RPGs. FFXII gave us a hint of how it could be used. Imagine if in the next online FF game you could make up a team of AI-controlled characters. Basically everyone could have their own team, and you could setup their routines a la FFXII. No more LFG.

 

[jarrod]

In the case of Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Infinite Undiscovery, Gears of War, Mass Effect and Too human - Microsoft Games Studio is the PUBLISHER. They're paying for the development of the game, they're not paying a "fee" but they're paying for EVERYTHING. And when they game sells, the profit is theirs. The developers are Mistwalker/Artoon, Mistwalker/Feel Plus, Tri-Ace, Epic, Bioware and Silicon Knights respectively. Yes, it is so simple as going up to a developer and saying "Hey make a game for us, we're paying!".

While true to an extent, all these cases aren't all the same. GOW in particular had Epic fronting the brunt of development resources and they (not Microsoft) own the IP for example... really, there's a variety of relationships at play in every game project, it's not just publisher pays/profits while developer makes.

Thanks Duckroll. That makes me slightly less confident in a BK sequel, but at least we know that Monolith has been developing extensively for either the Wii or DS for a while now.

Baten Kaitos is an even stranger case of resorces tracing, as Nintendo's actually the one to front most R&D costs for the series directly, but Namco owns (owned) the IP and developer... I'd say Nintendo's investment in Monolith is more a postive sign for future BK games than anything really.

There are lots of ways for Nintendo to fill those latter roles, but scenario and art direction is talent they were severely lacking for RPGs. Intelligent Systems have been handling that kind of thing too, but they are pretty much tied to specific series now, and I don't see them moving away from that.

See also the formations of Brownie Brown and Genius Sonority, the buyout of Game Freak, and the continual collaborations with Flagship, Skip, Chunsoft, Creatures, Q-Games, 8ing and others.

I could see Monolith and HAL especially working together on a big budget Wii RPG... Mother 4?

You've got to be impressed by tri-Crescendo too. They started off as a music production house, then started doing their own coding with the BK games. Now they're doing the whole thing for Trusty Bell. They've grown in a really tight, stable way.

Agreed there too, though I have to wonder if it's not just coincidence that tri-Crescendo's abilities are rapidly growing while tri-Ace seems to be in something of a rut?

 

[Gamecocks625]

I'm guessing Monolith is there to pick up the portable Mario Golf and Tennis titles that Camelot left behind, but I'm still left wondering who will do the console versions.

What makes you think they will do the DS versions of Mario Golf and Tennis? Have they done sports games in the past? I saw someone else say this in another thread, so I'm curious.

 

[jarrod]

I think Mario Sports games are more likely to be picked up by external 3rd party houses these days (see: Square Enix, SEGA or Next Level Games). I could see HAL doing Golf maybe though.... but I could just as easily see T&E Soft or Seta handling it.

It'd be a waste to just have Monolith pick up Camelot's crumbs... either Mario Sports or Golden Sun really. If Nintendo wants a new GS especially, they'd be better off just hiring Camelot again for the project.

 

[C.T.]

What makes you think they will do the DS versions of Mario Golf and Tennis? Have they done sports games in the past? I saw someone else say this in another thread, so I'm curious.

Like he said, Camelot, developer of Shining Force and Golden Sun, made Mario Golf for GBC and GBA (RPG Maker.) Thats why he assumed Monolith might continue this series.

 

[ethelred]

Like he said, Camelot, developer of Shining Force and Golden Sun, made Mario Golf for GBC and GBA (RPG Maker.) Thats why he assumed Monolith might continue this series.

But, uh, that's kinda a stupid assumption, no offense -- Camelot also made Hot Shots Golf before they even went over to Nintendo, so they had a pretty clearly defined interest in golf and tennis games (not to mention that the whole reason they left console development was so they could pursue golf game development full time).

Misinterpreting Camelot's interest in golf games as "Any primarily-RPG developer in the world should be set to golf games" is, Iunno, not the smoothest flow of logic.

 

[Thoren]

The handheld Mario Golf makes were excellent

 

[Gozan]

As a sidenote, who thinks is next on Nintendo's developer grocery list?

You know who they should buy? Traveller's Tales. With Nintendo backing them up, TT could ditch the licenced crap and really stretch their legs.

Spoiler

Lego Mario

 

[Datschge]

See also the formations of Brownie Brown and Genius Sonority, the buyout of Game Freak, and the continual collaborations with Flagship, Skip, Chunsoft, Creatures, Q-Games, 8ing and others.

What makes you think Nintendo bought Game Freak? Afaik they are still completely independent, Nintendo, Game Freak and Creatures just jointly set up the Pokemon company to handle all things related to Pokemon.

Agreed there too, though I have to wonder if it's not just coincidence that tri-Crescendo's abilities are rapidly growing while tri-Ace seems to be in something of a rut?

tri-Crescendo was founded around the time tri-Ace expanded its staff massively for the then next-gen (during which also much of the 2D graphic staff left). tri-Ace had around 50 employees before (after VP), around 80 in the progress (after SOBS) and has around 120 since (after SO3). tri-Crescendo had around 20 employees until 2005 when they hired more staffs for Trusty Bell/Eternal Sonata, they are now at 40 employees. (Japanese company websites are great for listing the numbers of employees and archive.org is great for travelling to the past.)

 

[jarrod]

What makes you think Nintendo bought Game Freak? Afaik they are still completely independent, Nintendo, Game Freak and Creatures just jointly set up the Pokemon company to handle all things related to Pokemon.

Happened a few years back, Nintendo also lists them as a subsidiary in their financials iirc.

tri-Crescendo was founded around the time tri-Ace expanded its staff massively for the then next-gen (during which also much of the 2D graphic staff left). tri-Ace had around 50 employees before (after VP), around 80 in the progress (after SOBS) and has around 120 since (after SO3). tri-Crescendo had around 20 employees until 2005 when they hired more staffs for Trusty Bell/Eternal Sonata, they are now at 40 employees. (Japanese company websites are great for listing the numbers of employees and archive.org is great for travelling to the past.)

Hmm, interesting... I wonder though if TC hasn't been eating up old TA staff? Tales Studio just doubled this past gen too, I wonder ifr they snagged some Wolfteamers back?

 

[wsippel]

You know who they should buy? Traveller's Tales. With Nintendo backing them up, TT could ditch the licenced crap and really stretch their legs.

Spoiler

Lego Mario

I'd think Image Epoch might be interesting. Quite a few talented guys seem to work there these days. On the other hand, they are not in financial troubles as far as I know - and since they already are Nintendo-only, there's no real reason to buy them...

Other than that, Nintendo should probably buy into Straight Story, Mikamis new studio.

 

[beef3483]

I only used that term because this is GAF and people hate Xenosaga...

I loved Episode III personally.

I think most, like me, stopped playing after two and thus have a bad taste in out mouths.

Not to get too off topic, but does the music of Episode III hold up? The loss of Mitsuda really bothers me.

 

[Prince of Space]

It has the best soundtrack of all three.

 

[beef3483]

So, who was working on Crono Cross again ?


Better relationships with S-E through Nintendo wouldn't help to realise an ol' fan dream ?

Actually, good relations might already be in place, Wikipedia says that Monolith did background graphics for Dirge of Cerberus. Also Masato Kato, the scenario writer for Trigger and Cross, wrote Baten Kaitos's scenario for Monolith. His latest works are the mana games for DS.

In fact if you go through the notable names on Chrono Triggers credits, Nintendo seems to be in favorable standing with many of them, with the possible exceptions of Kitase and Sakaguchi.

Uematsu - doing SSBB music.
Masato Kato - Wrote scenario for Baten Kaitos and the mana games for DS.
Yuji Horii - It seems that DQ games are only on Nintendo consoles at the moment.
Kazuhiko Aoki (assembled the CT team) - Last game developed was FFIII for DS, also did Crystal Chronicles.
Akira Toriyama - strong ties with Horii, though no discernable ties with Nintendo
Yasunori Mitsuda - no discernible ties with Nintendo but perhaps with Monolith, he did Xenosaga Episode I's music, also a very close personal friend of Kato, who also has ties to Monolith.

Keep the hope alive my friend.

 

[ethelred]

Yasunori Mitsuda - no discernible ties with Nintendo but perhaps with Monolith, he did Xenosaga Episode I's music, also a very close personal friend of Kato.

Mitsuda said a while back that one of his projects was a Wii game currently in development. That project has still not been revealed.

Read into that what you will.

 

[Link]

Just throwing the theory out there, but maybe it's not Disaster that caused Nintendo to buy them up like a lot of us are assuming, but an unannounced game they are working on?

 

[duckroll]

Just throwing the theory out there, but maybe it's not Disaster that caused Nintendo to buy them up like a lot of us are assuming, but an unannounced game they are working on?

Xenosaga 4 -confirmed-! I'm hyped!

 

[ethelred]

Xenosaga 4 -confirmed-! I'm hyped!

Namco x Capcom x Nintendo! Three-way heaven!!

 

[duckroll]

Namco x Capcom x Nintendo! Three-way heaven!!

Capcom said they're not interested, so they're thinking of doing Namco x Nintendo x Idea Factory instead.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Namco x Capcom x Nintendo! Three-way heaven!!

I would prefer a three way that included SquareEnix in one form or another.

 

[grandjedi6]

Capcom said they're not interested, so they're thinking of doing Namco x Nintendo x Idea Factory instead.

Eww Namco

 

[ethelred]

Capcom said they're not interested, so they're thinking of doing Namco x Nintendo x Idea Factory instead.

No, I heard Idea Factory's busy working with N1 and Hitmaker on a shovelware extraganza. It'll be Namco x Nintendo x Brownie Brown instead.

 

[reriel]

chrono trigger had 3 directors: kitase, tokita and aoki.
but tanaka, in a recent interview, said the main one isn't anymore in square, but go to namco.
Wasn't Aoki the main director (last project was ffcc) ?

 

[Yoshi]

You know who they should buy? Traveller's Tales. With Nintendo backing them up, TT could ditch the licenced crap and really stretch their legs.

Great idea, buy one of the most horrible studios... I don't think this POS studio has potential of improving in any way.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I can see it now. Square Enix announces Chrono Break for the Wii, with Yuji Horii writing the scenario, Monolith Soft and Intelligent Systems developing and Motoi Sakuraba doing the music.

 

[immy]

I can see it now. Square Enix announces Chrono Break for the Wii, with Yuji Horii writing the scenario, Monolith Soft and Intelligent Systems developing and Motoi Sakuraba doing the music.

:lol

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I got it right with Harvey Birdman and I'll get it right again.

 

[reriel]

tri-Crescendo had around 20 employees until 2005 when they hired more staffs for Trusty Bell/Eternal Sonata, they are now at 40 employees.

How can they make tb look like that with only 40 people
seem a small team for a next gen jrpg.

 

[Datschge]

Happened a few years back, Nintendo also lists them as a subsidiary in their financials iirc.

I guess I missed that then, their website still looks like as always, listing all their customers (like Sony) and stuff, giving no indication that it's not privately owned.

Hmm, interesting... I wonder though if TC hasn't been eating up old TA staff? Tales Studio just doubled this past gen too, I wonder ifr they snagged some Wolfteamers back?

I'd say Tales Studio's expansion was similar to tri-Ace's expansion, both seem mostly related to adding fresh young staff for a (second) team capable of 3D graphics/programming etc. That doesn't include former Wolfteam staffs afaics (in contrary it looks like many of the former Wolfteam/tri-Ace 2D graphic staffs like Yoshiaki Inagaki aren't capable of pursuing their former jobs anymore, doing something unrelated nowadays. And what happens to the long standing Tales 2D staff forming Team Destiny with the next-gen switch is still to be seen). tri-Crescendo (before the expansion at least) consists of the sound staff (which was built with the founding of tri-Crescendo after SO2) and plenty programmers, the lead ones coming from Wolfteam. Besides Hatsushiba the only person from tri-Ace now at tri-Crescendo would be Yoshiharu Miyake, but in VP he's credited as being from INATEC, not tri-Ace...
(All that impression is from looking through the staff lists I have as well as visiting related people's websites, some parts may be inaccurate.)

How can they make tb look like that with only 40 people
seem a small team for a next gen jrpg.

I guess they are simply dedicated? Imo plenty good games are done by small staffs. Camelot always had a little over 30 employees (33 atm) and still managed to do two games a year until something apparently went wrong during the Mario Tennis GC/GBA development. *shrugs*

 

[jj984jj]

I can see it now. Square Enix announces Chrono Break for the Wii, with Yuji Horii writing the scenario, Monolith Soft and Intelligent Systems developing and Motoi Sakuraba doing the music.

The most relevant post to Chrono in this thread.

 

[magiustra]

I'm surprised they haven't tried to get Mikami to come away from Capcom and bring a few members. That guy seemed like he's itching to be part of Nintendo.

Maybe they "fear" Mikami's dark and creepy shadow on Nintendo's image. Mikami have a great personality.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/070427qa/index.html

Bandai-Namco issued a release about your purchase of Monolith Software. Have you changed your position that you will not do M&A (mergers and acquisitions)? Or, is this an exception? What is the purpose?

When we say we do not do M&A, there are always exceptions, so let me explain about it. We have never said that we will never do M&A in any situation. Actually, we are not against M&A if Nintendo can absorb the real value of the company. However, in most cases, the value of software developing companies is attached to its people, not the company, which is merely a vessel for its people. So, when we purchase a company, we can purchase the vessel, but we cannot necessarily purchase the contents. Even if we should compete with others to purchase a software company, although we might be able to increase the sheer number of our developers and to gain a short-term result, we do not think it will do good for us in the long run. We have been repeatedly saying that we will not do that kind of M&A.
In the case of Monolith Software, Mr. Sugiura, the president, and Nintendo have a long-term relationship. How Mr. Sugiura thinks is close to how Nintendo thinks. The software Mr. Sugiura would like to create is in line with what Nintendo would like to have for its platform. So, we thought that Nintendo should support this idea, and we decided to take action
If certain conditions are met, we may do the same thing in the future (M&A). However, we will be very careful and selective, so that we will only partner with people with whom Nintendo can create a long-term working relationship.

I assume that Iwata meant to say "I'm the biggest ****ing BK fanboy in the world".

 

[Soulhouf]

I hope this time Monolith will have the means to create great games like Chrono Cross & Xenogears

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/070427qa/index.html

I assume that Iwata meant to say "I'm the biggest ****ing BK fanboy in the world".

So, the short version is that Nintendo has purchased Monolith, because they wanna build up a long term relationship and that in the future there could be new aquisition, but they will be VERY careful to choice the appropriate team.

 

[Datschge]

I assume that Iwata meant to say "I'm the biggest ****ing BK fanboy in the world".

No, he says the actual staff is important not the company or its virtual assets like brands. So if Nintendo does a M&A it says it's for a staff it sees as valuable, and that seemed to be the case with Monolith Soft. (Usually the companies with stable teams are privately owned nowadays while public companies tend to assemble their development teams for specific projects or outsource it altogether.)

 

[Shard]

It sounds like Satoru Iwata has been exchanging merger notes with Shane Kim.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

chrono trigger had 3 directors: kitase, tokita and aoki.
but tanaka, in a recent interview, said the main one isn't anymore in square, but go to namco.
Wasn't Aoki the main director (last project was ffcc) ?

The 3 people credited as director were Kitase, Tokita and Akihiko Matsui (currently in charge of FFXI's battle data). Aoki was credited as producer, and FFCC wasn't his last project, he worked on Code Age Commanders and FF3DS. I'm not sure who Tanaka had in mind though.

 

[reriel]

The 3 people credited as director were Kitase, Tokita and Akihiko Matsui (currently in charge of FFXI's battle data). Aoki was credited as producer, and FFCC wasn't his last project, he worked on Code Age Commanders and FF3DS. I'm not sure who Tanaka had in mind though.

ok, thanks for the corrections.

 

[duckroll]

The 3 people credited as director were Kitase, Tokita and Akihiko Matsui (currently in charge of FFXI's battle data). Aoki was credited as producer, and FFCC wasn't his last project, he worked on Code Age Commanders and FF3DS. I'm not sure who Tanaka had in mind though.

Maybe he's talking about Kato and/or Honne. Since they both took over the "series" from Chrono Cross on, and they've both left S-E.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

Maybe he's talking about Kato and/or Honne. Since they both took over the "series" from Chrono Cross on, and they've both left S-E.

That would make more sense (considering that it's a bit odd for Tanaka of all people to say it's impossible to make a Chrono sequel without Aoki/Kitase/Tokita/Matsui after he himself did just that with CC) but if Kato joined Bandai Namco as a regular employee, what is he doing working on Mana games for SE? Gah... does not compute.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Nintendo please bring us Baten Kaitos 3

 

[Terrell]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/070427qa/index.html

I assume that Iwata meant to say "I'm the biggest ****ing BK fanboy in the world".

Actually, I think the proper paraphrase is "Monolith wanted to be owned by a company who wouldn't treat them like garbage."

 

[Eteric Rice]

Hey I was thinking of making a GIF about that but I'm too lazy. Basically it was how the ghosts in Pac-Man would just stand over the giant dots and stay there, so you couldn't do shit. Or they would block Pac-Man by standing at both ends of the "teleporters" and trap him. But yeah I'm too lazy

BTW we need better AI for RPGs. FFXII gave us a hint of how it could be used. Imagine if in the next online FF game you could make up a team of AI-controlled characters. Basically everyone could have their own team, and you could setup their routines a la FFXII. No more LFG.

I agree if we're talking about XII's gameplay. More AI would be a good thing, but there still has to be a balance between difficulty. If you make a creature to hard, you'll stress out the player. Make it to easy, and you piss the player off. You have to find a medium, really.

Now in terms of turn based RPGs, I don't think we need to go any further than we already are in terms of A.I. I think going into more detail about how a monster defends itself from your assults, and it's weaknesses would add a lot to gameplay. That, and more work on how combat works. Strategy elements are welcome.

That's just my thoughts on the RPG scene.

Isn't one of Chrono Trigger's people working with Nintendo, now? I remember a former Square guy was talking about how amazing SMG was, or something. Didn't Nintendo get him on board?

 

[grandjedi6]

Nintendo please bring us Baten Kaitos 3

They'll end up working on Hey You Pikachu 2

 

[beef3483]

That would make more sense (considering that it's a bit odd for Tanaka of all people to say it's impossible to make a Chrono sequel without Aoki/Kitase/Tokita/Matsui after he himself did just that with CC) but if Kato joined Bandai Namco as a regular employee, what is he doing working on Mana games for SE? Gah... does not compute.

Kato is freelance.

 

[duckroll]

That would make more sense (considering that it's a bit odd for Tanaka of all people to say it's impossible to make a Chrono sequel without Aoki/Kitase/Tokita/Matsui after he himself did just that with CC) but if Kato joined Bandai Namco as a regular employee, what is he doing working on Mana games for SE? Gah... does not compute.

Honne is the Monolithsoft (and by association pre-sale, Namco) employee. Kato is freelancing as a writer like Nojima now.

 

[trinest]

Disaster is going to be awesome once it comes out of their studios now Nintendo owns em.

 

[grandjedi6]

Disaster is going to be awesome once it comes out of their studios now Nintendo owns em.

What flawless logic!