blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
RISC and CISC are fairly broad paradigms. There's no compatibility across RISCs or across CISCs.
Never played a game on WiiU's gamepad, I presume?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Nintendo looking for Lead Graphic Engineer for Next-Gen Console SoC in Redmond
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
For you, what's the perfect resolution?
720p minimum. Smartphones surpassed that years ago.
GhostTrick
Banned
Graphics Horse
Member
Apple seemed to manage with 640p ok I thought
I would be okay with 480P if it was dual screens and a 3D screen. I would also be okay with it being a 2D screen and higher resolution(though I would miss 3D). I'm not sure if I'd be okay with just one screen, I like that unique identity.
However I'm one of the weirdos who would be happy to pay a premium for a higher res, 3D screen.
New 3DS already has four shoulder buttons and a second analog(although it's a nub). I personally don't just want a Vita clone and that's what you are describing.
However I'm one of the weirdos who would be happy to pay a premium for a higher res, 3D screen.
New 3DS already has four shoulder buttons and a second analog(although it's a nub). I personally don't just want a Vita clone and that's what you are describing.
Graphics Horse
Member
I'm wondering what the touch screen situation will be if they're going to go hard down the cross-play route. Will the home console have a touch-screen in every controller? Will the handheld have a single screen and the home controller have a touchpad? Or will there not be a touch screen at all? A clamshell with a touchpad instead of a second screen would be the easiest to duplicate the display and controls across systems.
I'm speaking for myself but (from a development point of view) I can't see them jumping straight to the 720p bandwagon for their handheld when they're already having trouble developing HD games for Wii U.
AuthenticM
Member
How have they been having trouble developing HD games for the Wii U ?
I read in a blog about a possible Wii U redesign. It makes sense, since Renesas no longer manufactures the Wii U SoC (Part of the story was on GAF) and TSMC has 28nm eDRAM. The console would be completely redesigned and overclocked just like the New 3DS.
These are the entries. The blog is Spanish, but I'm too lazy to translate the whole text.
The guy says he's been told by a friend of his who works for a contractor of Nintendo, but that he doesn't share details because, getting fired, industrial espionage, etc. Makes sense. (The blog is actually refreshing with some interesting opinions on the industry)
So, what do you people think?
Edit: to clarify, the guy says to keep it as speculation for now.
These are the entries. The blog is Spanish, but I'm too lazy to translate the whole text.
The guy says he's been told by a friend of his who works for a contractor of Nintendo, but that he doesn't share details because, getting fired, industrial espionage, etc. Makes sense. (The blog is actually refreshing with some interesting opinions on the industry)
So, what do you people think?
Edit: to clarify, the guy says to keep it as speculation for now.
Herb Alpert
Banned
The uncle that works at nintendo always provides fine tales from his ass...
TheMoon
Member
Yup, 720p isn't necessary for their handheld games. What other devices do really doesn't matter here. It's completely irrelevant.
Smartphones are supposed to display text first and foremost. Higher resolutions are awesome for displaying text. But unless you're mostly playing Zork, it's really a waste of computational resources on a dedicated gaming device.
They have said several times in the past developing HD games has take them longer than expected. Facing difficulties leading to costs rising and delays.
According to Miyamoto, Nintendo has already "completed the step of learning new development techniques" so it shouldn't be a real problem from now on (or when the new system launches) but still, 720p on a handheld.. from Nintendo.. I'm not holding my breath
http://nintendoeverything.com/miyam...r-franchises-plenty-of-wii-u-games-next-year/
I'm aware of the new Z buttons(which Vita doesn't has and it's a wonderful idea) and while useful for controlling the camera, the nub still isn't good enough for fast-paced games like Kid Icarus. As for the design I don't want a Vita clone, but a updated version of the GBA SP, because clamshell still is king.
I'm a huge fan of high resolutions but even I can see that resolutions greater than 1080p on a TV and greater than 480p on a handheld don't do much for games.
That said, I'm hoping very strongly that Nintendo has a 480p screen on their next handheld. And by that I mean I think that if we do get a 480p screen on it, knowing Nintendo, we'll be damn lucky that it's not less than 480p. I could just as easily see them sticking a basement bargain 320p screen on it or something, which would be very disappointing.
Saucycarpdog
Member
The A8X is actually a very capable chip. It smokes the K1 and the Vita GPU handily.
DarkCronos
Member
that is REALLY interesting, any source?
It wouldn't end up more expensive because nobody else is using this resolution? The 3DS XL screen is already exotic enough not only because of 240p, but also its size(4.88") and aspect ratio(5:3).
A 4" screen at 800x480 (400x480 in 3D mode) has a pixel density of 156 which is slightly higher than the pixel density on the original 3DS which had a pixel density of 132.
I agree that super high resolutions would be a waste of processing power, especially as you surpass "retina" pixel density, but a density of 156 is still super low and not really much of an upgrade over the current 3DS models. Going with 1600x480 (800x480 in 3D mode) would give it a pixel density of 233, which is similar to a 2012 Nexus 7, and should be plenty sharp for gaming.
JimiNutz
Banned
I dont get why they don't go somewhere in the middle.
Why low powered or high powered? Why not 'reasonably powered' lol.
Doesn't low power mean the power consumption? Didn't a lot of programmers say they were impressed with the graphics Wii U can perform given the amount of electricity the thing needs?
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Plus the CPU cores are far more powerful than the Jaguar x86 cores in PS4/X1.
The 3DS screen looks fine because basically every notable game for the system is designed to look good on that screen. The 3DS get's almost no multiplatform games because its hardware is so far removed from the rest of the market, thus you don't really get comparisons for how games might look worse on it. Part of it might be intentional, and part of it might just be Nintendo mainly prioritizing its own game development when designing hardware.
Graphics Horse
Member
I'm sure that won't happen (well, might be bargain basement but not 320p)
The 2DS already uses a 400p screen sideways, so they'll have no problem with something higher than that if it only has a single screen.
Expecting somewhere from 480-640p single screen, would be surprised if higher.
Well if they were dropping the second screen that would be the next best thing.
I think the issue is whether they are having the dual screens and/or a 3D Screen. The Vita screen is 960x544(522,240 pixels) and it a lot of its best looking games are sub-native resolution.
If Nintendo were to go with a 3D screen that was four times the res of the 3DS' that would be 1600x480(768,000 pixels) which already well above the Vita's resolution. Add a second screen at 800x480(384,000 pixels) and we are above 1 million pixels and double the amount of pixels the Vita pushes.
Standard 720P is 1280x720(921,600 pixels) which is actually less pixels than a 3D top screen and a 2D bottom screen both at 800x480. Granted the bottom screen will be UI in most cases.
Someone please correct me if I have said something stupid.
Herb Alpert
Banned
240P was because of stereoscopic 3D.
I can totally see them go with a 480P screen in 2016. As sad as it is, it wouldn't surprise me.
I can totally see them go with a 480P screen in 2016. As sad as it is, it wouldn't surprise me.
Wait, I worked out the bottom screen as if it was widescreen. If the screens followed the 3DS' route then it would be 640x480(307,200 pixels) and the total would be 1,075,200 pixels.
If they were to drop 3D then they could go with 960x540(518,400 pixels) on the top and 720x540(388,800) on the bottom and it would be ~15K less pixels than a single 720p displat.
If they were to drop 3D then they could go with 960x540(518,400 pixels) on the top and 720x540(388,800) on the bottom and it would be ~15K less pixels than a single 720p displat.
InsaneZero
Member
It's from that NeoGAF Wii U hardware breakdown thread, so you should take that info with the entire Dead Sea.
Fourth Storm
Member
There is definitely an OS layer running underneath, but I'm pretty sure low-level CPU calls are enabled since Nintendo mentioned features like the locked L1 data cache in the leaked documentation.
If they go with ARM (and blu/Thraktor have swayed me back that way), I think Wii U BC is out. They can always recompile and release the games again digitally...
Actually, I'm wondering if their next home console has an optical drive at all. Nintendo seem to be against putting both an HDD and optical drive in their systems, and given the choice (and the grim state of their retail space), it might be best to just use a combination of digital and Game Cards for their unified platform.
GhostTrick
Banned
480p to 720p represents two times more pixel... on a 5 inch screen... that would be such a TERRIBLE waste of performances.
The issue there is that Game Cards may not be of a high enough capacity and are more expensive than optical media as well. Especially the higher capacity cards.
About Wii U game compatibility I was wondering if Nintendo might not just port some of them to their next handheld/console anyway if it's powerful enough. The audience for those games would be bigger anyway and I'm not sure Nintendo would be able to prepare enough Wii U level titles for a 2016 launch either.
Why is that? Within the tablet market the iPad Air 2 is currently the most powerful chipset available. Even if it was applied to a games machine would it still not do the job?
Fourth Storm
Member
Not if Nintendo stick to a simple art style. Many indie games today are 2D (and also built for 720p screens). Would we get lots of graphical bells and whistles like Mario Kart 8 and 3D World? No, but look what they did with Smash on Wii U - 1080p but not lots of additional detail over the Wii version.
It's a conundrum though, and it's hard to know how good a chip AMD can produce in 2016 and with what kind of battery life. 192 shaders (they are currently up to 128)? Will clocks be fixed or will they fluctuate based on load? There will also probably be a thicker abstraction layer this go round so that all games easily play on next gen even if the chipset changes (not all ARMs are compatible).
Also, what form factor are Nintendo going for? A somewhat thick tablet like 2DS and you get a little extra breathing room.
I wouldn't be surprised if the handheld launched with some Wii U ports. It's how they've launched in the past in that market. Game Cards are much more expensive than discs, true, but they likely do not want to give up their 3DS in-store presence, so that will make for a smoother transition.
If a game doesn't fit, they can do a mandatory install, download some assets (already prevalent today), or just make it digital only and sell a download code at retail on some type of collectible card (maybe use NFC for that).
Graphics Horse
Member
If they went with cards I'd think that 16GB should be affordable now, and a lot of Wii U games (first party) would happily fit on 4GB or 8GB cards.
That's my main gripe against 3D and dual screens, a single 854x480 screen(the same as the Gamepad) would push a little over 1.5 more pixels than the 3DS and a screen like the Vita's a little less than 2 times, so keep the dual screen and 3D setup would be a waste of performance IMO.
The same way they do with some eShop releases in Japan?
I would be ok with that, Nintendo games are usually small and if people are used to 2GB+ games for their phones and 30GB+ on PC, why not 5GB for the next 3D Mario?
GhostTrick
Banned
To be fair, I was thinking more about 3rd parties, especially Japanese ones... even though, I think it's likely that for their next handheld, even that ship will have sink...
But then, it would depend of the shaders number. With 192 shaders, yes, they could go for 720p. For 128 ? then 540p. Finally, with 64 shaders, 480p.
In any case, that's up to what Nintendo is aiming for.
To be fair, a lot of their games could already fit a 3DS cartridge.
Fourth Storm
Member
It's not optimal, and the manufacturing cost cuts into their margins heavily. It sounds crazy, but the best option may be all digital (kids and parents are used to it by now and we are talking another 2 years away). Use NFC and print up some collectible playing cards or toys with a download "key." Gamecards are a hassle anyway when you're on the go, and easy to lose.
IBM is giving a paper at IEEE this week on their 14nm tech btw. This tech may be available to Globalfoundries under the acquisition, who look to be AMD's leading manufacturing partner going forward. It's a longshot, but I wonder if 14nm eDRAM will be available after all. Will IBM have a new POWER chip out next year?
That is definitely true and game cards take a lot less shelf-space than full sized discs which is an advantage. It's even more of an advantage if the cards are compatible with both systems. Installing some assets is becoming common place, it would be nice if it could be avoided though.
On a slightly related note will Nintendo be forced to support SD-XC with their next handheld? 32GB okay for the 3DS but it won't be when the games are routinely over 4GBs.
You might be correct. DS cards only went up to 512MB and 3DS cards go up to 4GB(and I believe they said 8GB would be possible) so we might see 8GB and even 16GBs which might be plenty.
I like both the 3D screen and dual screen setups but the tradeoffs are undeniable. I could personally live without 3D but it's shame when the New 3DS apparently perfects it. I really like the dual screen setup but they could fit both 3DS screens on even a single 480P screen if I am not mistaken(even if it would be a physically small image).
GhostTrick
Banned
3DS already support SDXC cards... but you need to format it in a different format. I use a 64GB SD card for my 3DS.
And complex-looking smartphone games rarely run at native resolutions, specially on sub $200 phones. Nintendo will not put a screen that bottlenecks whatever GPU they end up using. They'd better invest in getting proper antialiasing, which is less taxing than rendering at higher resolutions.
Also, there are 480p phones being released this very year, and there'll be next year and the year next too.
Wait, you think Japanese third parties won't be there for the successor of the (currently) only platform with a major installed base in the country?
Certainly, one of the things that Nintendo should guarantee is to get multi releases of mobile games, like Puzzle&Dragons, Million Arthur, etc.etc. I mean, not just the possible paid version for console audience (like P&DZ, which's been a big success on the platform, with over 1,5 millions sold), but the f2p, "original" versions as well. Currently, 3DS doesn't allow to port easily most of these games, due to its old architecture, so either they're not released or they're reworked. For example, Million Arthur came out just recently on 3DS, reworked. ...And, somehow, it's already over 200,000 downloads. F2P can work on 3DS already (at least download-wise): Initial D is over 600,000; Denpa Men Free is over 1,500,000.
Paid games as well, of course.
Nintendo should try to get them as near as possible to the release of the mobile versions, if not at the same time. No MS's parity clause, though...that does more harm than good XD
Also, if (as New 3DS is possibly an indication) 3D will still be there, I'd say 540p would be the best we can hope for, considering we're probably talking about a 5" top display at max. On 3D (thus, 1920x540), games should look great, correct me if I'm wrong.
Schnozberry
Member
If history has taught us anything, I wouldn't be surprised to see Nintendo just match the Vita and go with qHD for the next handheld resolution.
With the hardware jump available to them with modern ARM CPU/GPU Cores, they could run just about any game they want at native resolution with acceptable levels of antialiasing and effects. The expectation of 720p+ seems a bit pie in the sky, especially because we know Nintendo is not going to push for bleeding edge simply for cost reasons. Bringing the 3DS to market at $249 was a disaster they should not attempt to repeat.
With the hardware jump available to them with modern ARM CPU/GPU Cores, they could run just about any game they want at native resolution with acceptable levels of antialiasing and effects. The expectation of 720p+ seems a bit pie in the sky, especially because we know Nintendo is not going to push for bleeding edge simply for cost reasons. Bringing the 3DS to market at $249 was a disaster they should not attempt to repeat.
I think Japanese third parties will be there. This generation should have taught them some harsh lessons and if Sony isn't releasing a Vita successor then they probably can't afford to ignore the 3DS successor.
It's not official support though. Nintendo will have to support some form of big storage.
Fourth Storm
Member
You're probably right. qHD sounds like a good option. Especially if they stick with a dual screen setup for one of their skus. I think they will have at least one tablet SKU, but the DS is pretty iconic and we know Nintendo like to be "different." Simply releasing a Nintendo Vita in 2016 would be sad.
Pretty sure the new 3DS supports the XC suffix, micro SDXC is supported on the new models if I remember right.
Also on the resolution I'm fine with 480 or 540p on the top screen as long as it's of good quality with a decent panel. Allegedly this is the case with the new 3DS models, so I think we're in the clear going forward.
Just as long as it scales older games perfectly, BC is a huge important thing for me and Nintendo lol
I also really need them to keep the 3DS/DS slot and native compatibility, that's a biggie.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
What I meant was that desite the compression drawbacks the DPI and gammut are fine, and WiiU's output looks gorgeous on the pad.
Depends what you're after. If you're interested in ISAs from a historic perspective, you could read some of the programming manuals of staple species of RISC and CISC. Google up the programming manuals of AMD64 and IA32 (both contemporary CISCs), IBM Gekko (PPC 750-based), Motorola 68K series (iconic CISC series), MIPS32/64 (originally SGI's, later on MIPS consortium, eventually ImgTech), Sun's SPARC. Curiously enough, ARM's ARM (Architecture Reference Manual) book is becoming harder to fetch with each successful generation of the architecture. At the very last ARM require a free registration by email today, which is wtf-worthy in my book ('hey, let's provide a hassle for anybody interested in our ISAs!'). If you're interested in the higher level RISC paradigms, check out RISC V open-source academic ISA design.Can you aim me at some better reading material than just wiki?