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Nintendo TS?!? (guess who was bored last night?)
- Thread starter Shogmaster
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Shogmaster
Member
DrGAKMAN said:
It's the combination of the visuals you are aiming for, the touch and feel technology, and the swivel and flip mechanism (need alot of delicate metal parts). Most sub $200 device just won't aim for such a complex hinge mechanism.
First, DS is NOT N64 level machine. No way no how. It can't even do texture filtering and alpha blends. Nintendo cheaped out on the rasterizer and saved money.
Second, 2009 won't be giving us Wii2 at the rate Wii is gaining market share. Nintendo won't give us Wii nor even GC visuals until Wii is superceded by a huge margin on their console side.
Third, you are under estimating the cost factor. even with sub 45nm bringing 65+ million worth of transistors and more than 64MB of 1T-SRAM will be a challenge for sub $200. Don't forget that Nintendo isn't chasing cutting edge visuals anymore and that they actually like to make profit right off the bat on their hardware.
Like I said, you are just trying to squeeze too much into this. This is not Nintendo's style anyways, and exercises like this is more challenging and fun if you try to predict what Nintendo would actually do, not what we personally would love to see in the devices and go crazy without constraints and limitations.
Shogmaster said:
Wait wait, woah...there's no flipping or hinging in this design...read what I proposed again. Also I did not suggest Immersion's touchsense technology, my idea would be much cheaper/easier to impliment. It would be like putting an LCD on top of a set of digital buttons...not rocket surgery.
That's why I said "without getting technical"...I know it's NOT a N64, and you know that better than I do. But...in the portable world NDS most resembles N64, just like PSP most sembles PS2...even though, technically, they're not! The mere suggestion is that if GBA bumps to NDS, than the next portable should also bump up.
I think people (when I've presented this idea before too) are looking a bit too hard at the name "WiiDS" and thinking I'm suggesting making it a portable Wii. Or that it would somehow play Wii games or whatnot. No, it uses a Wii-like UI and (at it's resolution) it would appear to display Wii-like visuals in portable form. Not suggesting the same chipset, memory, power or performance.
I do think a lot like Nintendo, sometimes I go on wild tangent's, but I don't think this idea is one of them. And I agree, this is challenging, but fun!
How 'bout this, you look at my idea (feature-wise, asthetically & my no buttons/no hinges answer to digital control aka the "tactile mount") and you say "how can this work" on the chipset end to make a fluid enough UI on-screen and be able to run VC titles as well as give us *some* kind of bump above NDS in visuals...something also within what you think Nintendo would do. You may have with your internal chipset already, but I don't know how that stuff works so break it down for us and see what happens.
I'm not asking for a Wii in a DS...just a bump in graphics, more features, better screen, Wii-like UI/Channel's menu system & the ability to play VC games on the go...shouldn't be too much to ask.
Shogmaster
Member
DrGAKMAN said:
OK, now I'm just SOOOoooo confused by your proposal. I can't make heads or tails of it! @_0 I guess I'm confused by the "sheathed" thingy and the "set of digital buttons" underneath the LCD? LCD is something you don't want to sandwich between the glass and buttons. They are too delicate. That's why the passive digitizesr work on top of the LCD. If you squeeze the LCD membrane everytime you make button presses, you will have damaged LCD pretty soon.
I gave it a bump. It's a portable Dreamcast. That's a huge bump from even the real N64! Don't be too greedy now.
I think may be the fault lies in the presentation of the idea. It's really hard to make out what you are aiming for.
If folks are not obsessed with the next Nintendo handheld doing a leap over the PSP (Nintendo certainly is not), I think most will be quite happy at the visuals MBX married to ARM 11 with 32MB of RAM will give. iPhone users are certainly happy with it's MBX + ARM driven visuals.
Shogmaster said:
First off, the "sheathed" aspect is merely a peice of plastic that slides over the screen...ya know, like those old pocket calculators...it's not advanced or anything, but it excuses a flat/exposed screen. Due to this idea, there's no need for any type of moving peices/hinges to "change" the unit from storing to playing games.
Second, you bring up a good concern with "squishing" the delicate LCD. The buttons & reinforcement are under the screen, while the screen is safely mounted on top of them. There's protective slabs of hard plastic on top of and below the LCD to protect it and keep it from being bent or punctured. Think of a well protected screen balanced on top of a set of buttons (or keyboard), when you press the screen, the pressure goes into the buttons (or keys) underneith...not the screen itself.
I gave it a bump. It's a portable Dreamcast. That's a huge bump from even the real N64! Don't be too greedy now.
Okay cool...maybe I wasn't good in my wording or naming of the "WiiDS"...I can't think of another name right now?
Probably...that and naming it "WiiDS" gives the wrong impression.
Problem is when I'm doing all my doodles I usually fill a page with about 20 different concepts/veiwpoints of a concept and I tweak them all as I go...when I get stuck on one I go to another, see if anything else pops up in my mind. I've thought of the T-swivel (your OP) before as well as variations of hinges, pivots, slide-outs and clamshell designs basically all coming to the same conclussion: Nintendo seeks durrability/kid-friendly designs for their portables and something with too many moving parts/that isn't enforced/balanced properly isn't going to fly with them. So, sorry for the confussion about explaining my ideas...'cos they can change 4 or 5 times a day when I work on them sometimes.
Long story short...right now, my idea is simple: no hinging of any type and no physical digital buttons on the face of the unit...this gives optimal asthetics, ergonomics, portability, durrability & simplicity as well as a very nice/large screen!
That MBX (not too sure what that is, but you said "portable DC" so that's cool), is that the processor someone found the other day from that (IT?) company that may or may not be working with Nintendo...there was a thread about it I thought? ARM 11 for NDS B/C right?
Baaa, anyways...I'm with you, again, if it can run a Wii-like UI/menu/channel's system as well as VC games and gives us a bump in graphics...that's all that's needed in my design as far as internals go.
I bet you're still concerned about the viability/durrability of the screen though...please...bring these concerns up to me so we can work on them.
Shogmaster
Member
That's great and all but I doubt that would have any relevance to what Nintendo would do.Lazy8s said:
Back when GBA was blazing the trail for the console handheld in 2001 with it's 17MHz ARM 7, Intel had StrongARM going at 201MHz in various Pocket PCs.
Within 6 months of GBA's launch, Gamepark was offering GP32 with Samsung ARM9 clocked up to 133MHz.
In 2004 When DS was pushing the envelope for Nintendo with ARM 9 @66MHz/ARM 7 @33MHz, Intel's XScales were pushing up to 624MHz.
ARM Cortex + GSX will find home in various high end machines pushing the heat and battery envelope in 2008, but if Nintendo would bring out something like my TS in the same year, you'll be lucky to get ARM 11 @ 200MHz and MBX @ 66MHz.
MasterMFauli
Banned
Sorry, but all those designs with virtual buttons suck. It wouldnt feel good, simple as that.
A bare screen my look "elegant", but it´s no good for "serious" gaming.
A bare screen my look "elegant", but it´s no good for "serious" gaming.
Shogmaster
Member
Thanks man.
MasterMFauli
Banned
bud said:
WTH?!?
Sorry that my opinion about something feelign alright is different from yours *sigh*
Shogmaster
Member
I don't mind your criticisms either. Good times, all. Good times.MasterMFauli said:
MasterMFauli
Banned
Shogmaster said:
I didnt criticise your designs, they look great. But i prefer real buttons, and you also made designs with real buttons, so please, i dont know what bud is talking about, it was just that i like buttons
Shogmaster
Member
Lazy8s said:
Those SGX parts will inevitably be married to high clock ARM CPUs. Even TI is planning to clock Cortex A8 in OMAP3 to about 500~600 MHz. OMAP2 with MBX never went higher than 330MHz. That's too high for Nintendo. I think it's more likely that Nintendo would incorporate MBX into their own ARM 9 or 11 design @ 45nm and get efficiency that way.
MasterMFauli said:I didnt criticise your designs, they look great. But i prefer real buttons, and you also made designs with real buttons, so please, i dont know what bud is talking about, it was just that i like buttons
Put me in the real button whore camp as well. Clickity-click, muthafuckaz!
Sorry, I meant the whole SoC/chipset consumes a similar amount of power at their smaller process size as the last generation of SoCs containing MBX: OMAP3 versus OMAP2, for example. The CPUs have advanced in efficiency, as well.
While an MBX fabricated in the small process would lower the consumption even more, one of the lower scale SGXs, like the 510 or 520, might provide a better balance of performance, features, size, and consumption.
While an MBX fabricated in the small process would lower the consumption even more, one of the lower scale SGXs, like the 510 or 520, might provide a better balance of performance, features, size, and consumption.
Shogmaster
Member
I suppose I could see SGX and ARM Cortex pair that's clocked low enough for Nintendo to accept and use in their console. I guess just can't see 600MHz CPU/200MHz GPU scenario in their next handheld. I can see 200/66 or in that neighborhood much easier.Lazy8s said:
Barf_the_Mog
powerless or are they? o_O
Considering the device has motion detection....what would I do if I elbowed some prenant woman on the bus or in an airplane?
Shogmaster
Member
Barf_the_Mog said:
It gives your Pikachu violent diarrhea.
MasterMFauli said:
Virtual buttons do suck, they don't feel real...however, what my suggestion is a screen mounted atop a set of real buttons to give the feeling of pressing a button when you press a virtual on-screen button. Frankly, none of us know if that sucks.
There's other ways I've thought to not go this route (including ones not discussed here thus far), but they're all pretty UNFEASIBLE for a variety of reasons! Here's some of them:
1-a seperate controller that attaches to the portable to allow for traditional controls...allows for versatility at the loss of durrability & portability, let alone how to make such controls that fit in the horrizontal *and* vertical possitions = NO
2-a special stylus that also contains a set of buttons/controls...meh, probably not at all workable = NO
3-a thumb strap with a set of rubber "buttons" to give the feel of real buttons on top of a touch-screen...regular stylus is fine, but thumbstraps = NO
4-a clamping system allowing for you to "attach" a soft rubber set of buttons over the screen...bunch of lil' rubber doo-dad's = NO
5-stay with the tried'n'true NDS clamshell asthetic and still keep 2 screens only making one of them (the top one) bigger...forever make every future portable this way in order to meet with B/C means limiting progress = MAYBE
6-miniture buttons allowing for more digital controls...they can be single buttons with 4 dirrections making them mini D-PAD's or D-Buttons...this could be a vaiable option considering bigger buttons/controls could be affixed on top of the D-Buttons for comfort if need be and asthetically if gives more room/focus to the screen = MAYBE
7-goofy swivels or hinges allowing for access to hidden buttons/controls...but how though, yeah Shog has a somewhat perfect design for NDS B/C & vertical playing, but what about horizontal playing = MAYBE
8-new technology (as I suggested with my last idea) that is versatile in vertical or horizontal modes and allows for the feel of digital presses on screen...future progress hindered: no, doable: yes, is it durrable enough or tactile enough to replace physical digital buttons: unknown = MAYBE
Shog...
You never responded, do you have a better understanding on the sheathed & tactile mount ideas I have?
Shogmaster
Member
DrGAKMAN said:
Duder, I have nothing for you on that front. I can't imagine what would make virtual buttons work satisfactory enough with LCD technology. About the sheath, I don't know why you would want to rob your accessory revenues that way. You get paid on the come back beeyatch!
Shogmaster said:
The slide sheild wouldn't have to be packaged with the system, just a cheap/easy fix to the screen protection thing eliminating the need for a clamshell design.
You're probably right, if my tactile LCD idea were possible, someone would be doing it already! Immersion is doing something similar, but my approach would be simpler than their's, but they would know better than any of us and I'm sure they've had the idea, but (for whatever reason) skipped it...probably 'cos it's not durrable and/or it didn't test well?
How do you feel about miniture buttons?
Shogmaster
Member
Miniature buttons brings ergonomics problems. DS buttons are already tiny. You could do a 4 way rocker switch (pretty much a D-Pad of sorts) do a better job than 4 small buttons at that point, but that's far from ideal either.DrGAKMAN said:
Should have sold this idea to Sony, looks great but it's always funny how tonnes of designs always come out following the best example of something, as these are all like iPhone DS's.
I was expecting to just come in here and post a gif of a dog doing a poo on a barbie doll, but have been suitably impressed. Here's to hoping Nintendo at least make the one long screen with no break.
I was expecting to just come in here and post a gif of a dog doing a poo on a barbie doll, but have been suitably impressed. Here's to hoping Nintendo at least make the one long screen with no break.
Imperial Hot
Banned
Looks awesome. I definitely would pick up something like that. My only thing is that this console is more tuned towards non-games.
I can't believe how stumped I am by this. Some of you guys have great ideas and Shog's original T-swivel is just top-notch. Even though I was the one to bring up the issue of not being able to use digital controls in horizontal/wide mode...I really can't come up with something "better".
Something to think about as Nintendo goes forward, is how they're going to handle B/C? Also, if (and it should) the next portable plays VC titles...how?
Another thing is, if Nintendo is going with a multipoint touch screen, doesn't that imply a further step AWAY from digital buttons/controls? Basically (assuming it uses multi-point touch) we'll have a new implied set-up of having 2 thumbs (or 1 thumb & 1 stylus) on the screen further taking us AWAY from digital buttons/controls. If this is the case, they may force the move away even further by giving digital control only as a secondary method of play...maybe to the point of a T-swivel design or by using smaller, secondarily placed buttons or a seperate "classic" controller for the next portable?
These are things to take into consideration. Shog's first design may be the most ideal 'cos it gives us built-in (though oddly accessed...not neccessarily a bad thing though) NDS B/C right away while giving the large multi-point touch screen precedent over everything else. Two thing's that I'm sure are most-likely on the top of Nintendo's list when it comes to their next portable.
I would prefer this to a 2-screened clamshell design again, though, that may very well be what we get? If they were to go with Shog's T-swivel, then they'd have to offer some kind of support for digital control for horizontal play/VC classics...but I don't see how without some kind of sold seperatly device...like Wii's "classic" controller? It *does* have a notches on the back of it, suggesting it could have something attached/mounted to it. Wouldn't be ideal for portable/on'the'go play, but it'd be a nice option and solution to my quarrel with a T-swivel design that lacks classic controls in the wide/horizontal possition.
Something to think about as Nintendo goes forward, is how they're going to handle B/C? Also, if (and it should) the next portable plays VC titles...how?
Another thing is, if Nintendo is going with a multipoint touch screen, doesn't that imply a further step AWAY from digital buttons/controls? Basically (assuming it uses multi-point touch) we'll have a new implied set-up of having 2 thumbs (or 1 thumb & 1 stylus) on the screen further taking us AWAY from digital buttons/controls. If this is the case, they may force the move away even further by giving digital control only as a secondary method of play...maybe to the point of a T-swivel design or by using smaller, secondarily placed buttons or a seperate "classic" controller for the next portable?
These are things to take into consideration. Shog's first design may be the most ideal 'cos it gives us built-in (though oddly accessed...not neccessarily a bad thing though) NDS B/C right away while giving the large multi-point touch screen precedent over everything else. Two thing's that I'm sure are most-likely on the top of Nintendo's list when it comes to their next portable.
I would prefer this to a 2-screened clamshell design again, though, that may very well be what we get? If they were to go with Shog's T-swivel, then they'd have to offer some kind of support for digital control for horizontal play/VC classics...but I don't see how without some kind of sold seperatly device...like Wii's "classic" controller? It *does* have a notches on the back of it, suggesting it could have something attached/mounted to it. Wouldn't be ideal for portable/on'the'go play, but it'd be a nice option and solution to my quarrel with a T-swivel design that lacks classic controls in the wide/horizontal possition.
Drew this up in bitmap (sorry for my primativness)...just wanna see what people think before I (or someone more skilled) make a better render.
With this design I'm running with the mini-buttons idea I talked about before. Since they're smaller and less intimidating asthetically they allow the screen to take precedent. No goofy transforming portables, no secret hinges, no expensive tactile screens...just a sleek simple device I'm calling "DS+" for right now.
I really think this design is the best I've come up with in a while as it has easy to understand vertical & horizontal set-ups without any glaring price, durability, ergonomic, manufacturing or asthetic issues. The "D-Button" concept is a thumbprint-sized 4-way rocker switch that allows 1 button to become 4 buttons or a dirrectional thumbpad. Each dirrection also measures up to 45* of pressure allowing for 360* analog control. For those who find the D-Button's too small, modules can be attached to each D-Button to give you that full-sized feel.
rollingstart
Banned
I think this would be the most ideal situation (just get the idea and not the crappy 3 minute ms paint crap).
Linkzg said:
I think this would be the most ideal situation (just get the idea and not the crappy 3 minute ms paint crap).
Sadly...this may be very likely. I'd like Nintendo to get away from the 2 screen/clamshell design 'cos then they'll keep getting stuck with it due to BC issues. The next portable should nip that in the bud before that's all they're able to do from here on out.
Wolves Evolve
Member
DrGAKMAN said:
Well, its as limiting as anything else. With a bigger top screen, they could do a massive range of new things. Normal twitch games in widescreen, DS-style games, or both, media player. Put 8 gig of storage in that ****er and you'll spray hot money all over Iwata's tits.
rollingstart
Banned
Wolves Evolve said:
and just by adding swivel, it will pretty much look like the iphone almost when turned, so you can do touch apps and such.
Instead of swivel, how about a slide up top screen panel? That way there's less moving parts, it's more reinforced (on a flat 1-way track as opposed to a 360* swivelling hinge) and overall it's more durable. Not so much different by design. If Nintendo decides to make it a 2 screen system again then that'd be the way to go. The speakers & menu buttons would have to be on the top screen panel though...so that when you "close" or slide the panel back into place you still have access to audio, pausing & menu. Also, replace the "nubs" with my D-Buttons...
I'll make one tomorrow...
I'll make one tomorrow...
rollingstart
Banned
DrGAKMAN said:
the screen will see not be protected, the other problem with a sliding design is that in most cases you cant have buttons that stick out to much, the third problem is it cant slide out all the way, there will have to be a part where the screen and bottom half are supported.
and that whole D-button thing is too much to carry around, its easier to have a nub (even tho the best analog stick ever on a handheld is from the Tapwave Zodiac.)
Linkzg said:
I have certainly taken those concerns into consideration as the following design will show.
1) Most all of the designs in this thread (including Shog's) have an exposed unprotected screen...I came up with the "sheath" in a previous design and have since dropped the idea of a clamshell design in favor of it. Think of it like an old pocket calculator in where you have a protective cover that can be slide over the front for protection or slide over the back for storage.
2) Button clearance is as much of an issue with a slide up design as it is with a swivel design.
3) Noted and also, again, a one-way track system that can do as you say is more durrable than a swivelling hinge.
As far as the D-Button idea goes, it's basically like an analog nub. It's a 4-way dirrectional button that can measure 45* of pressure in any of those dirrections allowing for 360* analog control. However, it has the added benifit of allowing you to make the scheme full-sized with an ~optional~ module.
Thanks to Shog for this topic (if I were to have started, it would've went to hell) and for the original render from where I took from to make this design. I know the mic/cam/flash looks a bit gaudy, but I couldn't find a good pic to grab one from to fit with the rest of the realistic looking render. Another concern I have thought of with a sliding design like this is that both screens are basically at the same angle when held, while the GBA sp, NDS & NDS lite have a slight angle to their upper panels...I don't think it's too much of an issue though, just something I've noticed. This render is to scale with the top screen being true 16x9 wide (480x270) and the bottom being that of the NDS (256x192). You will notice grooves in the side veiw showing where the sheild can slide into (whether protected or stored) and a "track" system on either side of the bottom screen for the top panel's slide track. I have been against a 2 screen design which is why a method like Shog's is so attractive, but thinking like Nintendo, my current design may be likely...however, with certain touch only games (ClubHouse Games, Ninja Gaiden, Brain Training, etc.) you can still play those with this unit "closed" and turned vertically.
flipping_heck
Member
I would like to mention that Shogmaster's Nintendo TS design has been made public in a chinese magazine, GameNext, photos/scans later maybe.
Must be a very slow news week for them..lol
Must be a very slow news week for them..lol
Shogmaster
Member
rollercopter.gif
Shogmaster
Member
I endorse this message. Shog needs some spending cash desperately for the 360 fall/winter gaming lineup.Haunted One said::lol That's awesome. I hope Shog gets some royalties.
flipping_heck
Member
Here's a crappy photo (no scanner atm)
Its only a small bit and they do know its a mocked up design (well i hope so)
Its only a small bit and they do know its a mocked up design (well i hope so)
flipping_heck
Member
GameNext, their news comprise of totally everything thats been put on the net for the week. So, not worth reading if you got the internet
GAF->Internet->World->GAF
GAF->Internet->World->GAF
Elfforkusu
Member
I really like the circular design, very elegant.
Throwaway123456789
Member
Why not add magnets to the single-hinge idea, to stabilize it and keep the screen in place?
MAY 2008!? Hah!
I don't see Nintendo releasing another handheld earlier than fall 2009, 2010 is more likely though. Knowing Nintendo they'd probably wait until 2012. >_>;
Sorry if this has been discussed to death already, I haven't read the entire thread but just saw the OP. Though I probably read and replied here a while ago but forgot. -_-
I don't see Nintendo releasing another handheld earlier than fall 2009, 2010 is more likely though. Knowing Nintendo they'd probably wait until 2012. >_>;
Sorry if this has been discussed to death already, I haven't read the entire thread but just saw the OP. Though I probably read and replied here a while ago but forgot. -_-
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