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Nintendo's "colors" and deferred rendering

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nOoblet16

Member
what framerate did Killzone 2 run at again?
You speak as if Killzone 2 ran at an atrocious framerate. It had an average of something around 29.3x or something around that (but the average was in the range of 29.xx), so no Killzone 2 ran just fine. Look up any framerate analysis on that game and you'll see it holds up pretty well. Killzone 3 ran more consistent but KZ2 in itself ran no worse than majority of 30FPS tittles from last gen.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/killzone-week-day-one-triple-campaign-dissection
 
but youre taking lighting and isolating it like its the only technical aspect of a games visuals...it just doesnt work that way...you have to factor everything else into the equation...

Mario Kart does certain things really well...but the fact remains the majority of its appeal is its beautiful and colorful art style...

for example...in Ryse, the main character model is made up of 85,000 polygons how many polygons do you think Mario is made up of in Mario Kart 8? its no where near 85k!...

you cant simply ignore all of the additional processing being done in a game like Ryse and then say "SEE! it cant do deferred lighting in at 720/60!" because there might be as many polygons in one character of Ryse as a whole frame of Mario Kart...

No, I'm not. I'm talking about lighting in isolation. I do not think it's the only technical aspect of a games visuals. I do believe that the Xbox One has a bottleneck with deferred lighting however, based not only on plenty of things I've read about framebuffer sizes, but also based on the games released on the system that use deferred lighting.

Could it be a complete coincidence that every 60 fps title on Xbox One is 720p if they use deferred lighting? Well yes... but it also lines up with the things I've read and learned on here.

That's all. I'm not saying games don't and can't look good on the Xbox One. I'm not saying Wii U games look as good as Xbox One games (I think I've been pretty clear that they don't).

You speak as if Killzone 2 ran at an atrocious framerate. It had an average of something around 29.3x or something around that (but the average was in the range of 29.xx), so no Killzone 2 ran just fine. Look up any framerate analysis on that game and you'll see it holds up pretty well. It ran no worse than say Tomb raider on Xbox one.
Killzone 2 was a technical marvel. I'm just pointing out that it ran at half the framerate of Mario Kart 8, and not for one second saying there were any issues with its framerate. Saying 'well last gen games like Killzone 2 also did deferred lighting, so what's the big deal about Mario Kart 8 doing it' is missing that Mario Kart 8 does it at twice the framerate. I just wanted to make sure we weren't ignoring that.
 
Killzone 2 on the PS3 used differed rendering, and had scenes with up to 350 individual light sources...

can you show me a scene, or even evidence to suggest, that the new Mario Kart has that many at any given time??

also...in regards to colors...

differed rendering??
N64_Super_Mario_64_whomp_fortress.jpg

at the beginning of this thread, you made a post about being able to tell when people don't know what they are talking about
the problem is that the OP doesnt know anywhere near as much as he thinks he does...im no expert on anything when it comes to this stuff...but i do know enough to know when someone is pulling stuff straight from their ass...
then you post a mario 64 screen that has precisely nothing to with the discussion at hand.
What, exactly, are you trying to prove here?

Also, the amount of people acting as if the OP said that deferred rendering was never done before is appalling. He never said that, not even once, and every gamer that has a passing interest in graphics know that it's the preferred method for games these days.
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
The vast majority of people who are caring about 1080p aren't some hugely uneducated ignorant mass as you've represented them, they're instead a group of people who want to play games in their screen's native resolution so that they can appreciate the art and graphics technology without being distracted by the subpar image quality that sub native resolutions present on modern screens.

They are uneducated,

Before flat panel tech took off plenty of gamers here in the crt or projection camp warned of the ill effects of this tech. They didn't think this would ever be an issue and now it clearly is because resolution is taking off in the gpu space while tvs stay limited. Be it 720p or 1080p a native resolution display what you can do in the past with gaming and in the future.

Can't think of a better example of not thinking a situation through and then wanting the industry to cater to a decision that no one else but the consumer made.
 

Oersted

Member
You speak as if Killzone 2 ran at an atrocious framerate. It had an average of something around 29.3x or something around that (but the average was in the range of 29.xx), so no Killzone 2 ran just fine. Look up any framerate analysis on that game and you'll see it holds up pretty well. Killzone 3 ran more consistent but KZ2 in itself ran no worse than majority of 30FPS tittles from last gen.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/killzone-week-day-one-triple-campaign-dissection

30 FPS shooter. The things which became acceptable^^
 

Into

Member
Two things:

1. It s a deeply ingrained tradition in hardcore gaming to equate realistic scenes with more and better technology, as the dream of technological progress for many enthusiasts is to create virtual reality. "I want to jack into the Matrix."

It is also deeply ingrained in Nintendo fans (since we love generalizing here in this topic), that any game with color = good art style, and brown/grey (realistic) = bad art style. You see this come up almost on a daily basis. It is absurd and comical to view something as complex as art in such a simplistic way, when there is so much more nuance than that.

Not everyone thinks that vomiting the entire rainbow on a video game equals a "good art style". It can so easily look tacky and cheap.

I am not seeing this "hate" for the Wii U hardware anymore, it certainly was there several months ago but now the focus is on the Xbox One and PS4, and the vast amounts of people on this forum have forgotten all about Wii U's hardware.
 

Metfanant

Member
There's also little variety in Ryse so I wouldn't say they weren't cutting corner there either....
Now if your argument is that MK8 is cutting more corners than Ryse...

variety or not, they all still have to be rendered by the GPU...

2 identical characters with 85k polygons still takes as much computational power to render as 2 completely different characters with 85k polygons...i wouldnt even argue that Mario Kart is cutting more corners...they are not trying to match the technical fidelity of a title like Ryse...Mario Kart's bread and butter is its art style

Eh if that was the case I would be gushing over Knack or the Witness but I don't. I'm not technically versed in these things but I can see that there is a bunch of stuff going on in Mario Kart 8, SM3DW and Bayonetta 2 that isn't happening in those other 2 next gen games.
art style is subjective...on a technical front Knack is probably the most impressive because of the particle effects there...but its certainly not as pleasing to the eye as the latest Mario titles...


This is why I was annoyed with your Mario 64 remark. The shades, lighting, special effects to bring out the colors are radically different. It would be like comparing an IPS panel to a Twisted Pneumatic display and saying just because they are being fed the same data on colors to be displayed there isn't anything in the hardware that makes the colors displayed more correctly on an IPS monitor.

there are no special effects that make mario's hat that color red in Mario 64...

at the beginning of this thread, you made a post about being able to tell when people don't know what they are talking about

then you post a mario 64 screen that has precisely nothing to with the discussion at hand.
What, exactly, are you trying to prove here?

actually, the picture has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion at hand...OP made the claim that the "colors" of the new Mario Kart are not art style, but a direct product of its deferred lighting...yet there we are back in Mario64 and Mario is made up of the exact same colors...im not knocking Mario Kart, or Mario64...or the Wii U's hardware...or the OP's notion that people that discuss graphics should be more well informed...

but the idea that Mario's colors are only possible because of the wondrous deferred lighting abilities of the Wii U is preposterous
 
actually, the picture has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion at hand...OP made the claim that the "colors" of the new Mario Kart are not art style, but a direct product of its deferred lighting...yet there we are back in Mario64 and Mario is made up of the exact same colors...im not knocking Mario Kart, or Mario64...or the Wii U's hardware...or the OP's notion that people that discuss graphics should be more well informed...

but the idea that Mario's colors are only possible because of the wondrous deferred lighting abilities of the Wii U is preposterous

No it doesn't because mario 64 has like ZERO lighting in it. The problem lies in having more advanced lighting effects AND vibrant colors. At the same time.
 
Bionic Commando Rearmed ran at 60 for the most part. The technique itself isn't necessarily more demanding than forward rendering; that's pretty much the point. But yes, 1080p and deferred rendering is where the 32 MB ESRAM really becomes a bottleneck on XB1 as I understand it, as you can't fit all your render buffers. It would be the same same for WiiU but it's better in that regard than the 10 MB eDRAM on the 360
The 10 MB of eDRAM on the Xbox 360 weren't readable from the XGPU so in terms of deferred rendering, I doubt they had any meaningful impact (since the buffers had also to be stored on the main ram in order to perform any lighting calculation).

plagiarize said:
Killzone 2 was a technical marvel. I'm just pointing out that it ran at half the framerate of Mario Kart 8, and not for one second saying there were any issues with its framerate. Saying 'well last gen games like Killzone 2 also did deferred lighting, so what's the big deal about Mario Kart 8 doing it' is missing that Mario Kart 8 does it at twice the framerate. I just wanted to make sure we weren't ignoring that.
And also the amount of lights currently displayed on the scene, that's what determines the amount of bandwidth spend when performing the calculations, which is why this MK game is so "colourful" (it has a lot of concurrent light sources everywhere).

Metfanant said:
there are no special effects that make mario's hat that color red in Mario 64...
But there're special effects behind those lights on MK8 that you negate when you compare them to a red flat texture of a N64 game.
That's precisely what I'm criticizing and thank you for participating on this thread, because you've illustrated perfectly what I was trying to say.
 

wildfire

Banned
It is also deeply ingrained in Nintendo fans (since we love generalizing here in this topic), that any game with color = good art style, and brown/grey (realistic) = bad art style. You see this come up almost on a daily basis. It is absurd and comical to view something as complex as art in such a simplistic way, when there is so much more nuance than that.

I don't know why Nintendo fans are being singled out for this type of specific example. I know you are doing it in ironic way but I wasn't reading Nintendo fans make complaints about "brown military shooters" over 15 years ago. A term that has been used repeatedly until 2008 or 09.
 

Cuburt

Member
I'm not much of a tech guy but it seems obvious the main point I get from the OP holds true, that Nintendo consoles/games often don't get credit for their technical strengths and capabilities due to people just considering everything to be good artstyle and nothing more, and that the huge sticking point of resolution this gen and last gen (and occasionally FPS) is often more of a bullet point/ammo in a console war argument than something that many people would have been able to tell on their own without a Digital Foundry breakdown. There is so much that goes into the graphics that the "graphics only" crowd eats up that getting hung up on a couple frames difference and a lower native resolution seems like such a petty argument in the grand scheme of things and yet many people get caught up in it time and time again, even the more tech savvy amongst us.

Of course, they are all a part of making a better experience and better graphics, so if they fall down to poor levels it will make a difference in the graphics and how it plays, but Battlefield 4 was marred with issues and still sold. I understand the need for people to feel they get their money's worth but it's mostly fanboy pettiness and unfortunately, people still buy broken games if it's popular enough. I get the feeling the majority of console gamers who say they care about this stuff, couldn't even point out the differences to you in a blind experiment.
 

Rafterman

Banned
.

Seriously, is the OP sure he knows what he is talking about?

Deferred rendering has been around for ages... tons of last gen games use it (and I mean TONS), and the images in the OP concerning Mario Kart are not even evident of its advantages...

This.

Deferred rendering is nothing new. If the Op is going to call people out on this stuff at least he should know what he's talking about.

1) Even if some games used a deferred engine the past generation, that doesn't negate the fact that "those colours" are there thanks to a deferred engine and not only because "nintendo like colours".
.

Nonsense.

Nintendo colors have been like that since the advent of 3D, long before they used deferred rendering as a technique. It's their style, which I happen to like btw, but it has nothing to do with deferred rendering at all.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Killzone 2 was a technical marvel. I'm just pointing out that it ran at half the framerate of Mario Kart 8, and not for one second saying there were any issues with its framerate. Saying 'well last gen games like Killzone 2 also did deferred lighting, so what's the big deal about Mario Kart 8 doing it' is missing that Mario Kart 8 does it at twice the framerate. I just wanted to make sure we weren't ignoring that.

I see, sorry I misunderstood you.

30 FPS shooter. The things which became acceptable^^
30FPS for shooters has always been the standard on consoles, so what's your point? Unless you were being sarcastic, there isn't any need to go towards that discussion..
 

Metfanant

Member
No, I'm not. I'm talking about lighting in isolation. I do not think it's the only technical aspect of a games visuals. I do believe that the Xbox One has a bottleneck with deferred lighting however, based not only on plenty of things I've read about framebuffer sizes, but also based on the games released on the system that use deferred lighting.

Could it be a complete coincidence that every 60 fps title on Xbox One is 720p if they use deferred lighting? Well yes... but it also lines up with the things I've read and learned on here.

That's all. I'm not saying games don't and can't look good on the Xbox One. I'm not saying Wii U games look as good as Xbox One games (I think I've been pretty clear that they don't).


Killzone 2 was a technical marvel. I'm just pointing out that it ran at half the framerate of Mario Kart 8, and not for one second saying there were any issues with its framerate. Saying 'well last gen games like Killzone 2 also did deferred lighting, so what's the big deal about Mario Kart 8 doing it' is missing that Mario Kart 8 does it at twice the framerate. I just wanted to make sure we weren't ignoring that.

- I understand what youre saying...but you cant simply isolate the lighting and say "well because Game A uses deferred rendering, and the Xbone runs it at 720/60 then there is no way it can ever do it." you just simply cant throw away the rest of the game's assets and focus on that one thing...

- As for Killzone...yes MK8 is running at twice the framerate, but again id wager even in Killzone that the average character model is SIGNIFICANTLY more detailed than a character model in MK8...but that also being said the Wii U hardware is more powerful than the PS3...i think we can all agree on that...

- The Xbone DOES have a bottleneck when dealing with deferred rendering at 1080p...its the ESRAM...its generally too small to fit the entire framebuffer into it so you either have to do things like tiled resources, or you can allow the things to spill over into the DDR3 main memory, but that is slow so its not ideal...

No it doesn't because mario 64 has like ZERO lighting in it. The problem lies in having more advanced lighting effects AND vibrant colors. At the same time.

thats exactly my point...the lighting is not NEEDED for those colors...obviously everything is ENHANCED by the lighting and various effects that have been added since the Mario64 days...but the COLORS themselves have always been there

And also the amount of lights currently displayed on the scene, that's what determines the amount of bandwidth spend when performing the calculations, which is why this MK game is so "colourful" (it has a lot of concurrent light sources everywhere).
Killzone 2 had scenes with up to 350 light sources at the same time and was about the least "colourful" game in existence...can you point me to a source saying that MK8 has anything even approaching that number??


But there're special effects behind those lights on MK8 that you negate when you compare them to a red flat texture of a N64 game.
That's precisely what I'm criticizing and thank you for participating on this thread, because you've illustrated perfectly what I was trying to say.

im not negating those special effects...they certainly enhance the image, and significantly...but they are not responsible for the colors themselves
 
It is also deeply ingrained in Nintendo fans (since we love generalizing here in this topic), that any game with color = good art style, and brown/grey (realistic) = bad art style. You see this come up almost on a daily basis. It is absurd and comical to view something as complex as art in such a simplistic way, when there is so much more nuance than that.

Not everyone thinks that vomiting the entire rainbow on a video game equals a "good art style". It can so easily look tacky and cheap.

I am not seeing this "hate" for the Wii U hardware anymore, it certainly was there several months ago but now the focus is on the Xbox One and PS4, and the vast amounts of people on this forum have forgotten all about Wii U's hardware.
Hopefully this is a joke post because its pretty damn goofy already
 

OryoN

Member
Well, I do tend to agree. The quality of the lighting & shadows in Mario Kart 8 is well beyond anything I've seen on PS360. It doesn't take very long to notice. The lighting in Puppeteer, for instance - which I think looked excellent - do look a bit dull and dated after a direct comparison. The the same can be said about not just the sheer amount of colors used - which is more an artistic choice - but how rich and vibrant they are, while coupled with good shading effects. While these techniques aren't totally new to consoles, the quality and extent to which it is used on Wii U, demonstrates the obvious gap in terms of modern architecture and GPU features, regardless of how many FLOP/sec it can muster.

Barring IQ due to higher resolutions, Mario Kart 8 even rivals some things seen on PS4/XB1. No, the graphics in MK8 do not exploit the cliché sweaty characters, constant explosions, or curiously wet walls everywhere, but it's not hard to appreciate its visual splendor, both artistically AND technically. For some people that's hard to admit, because; well, Nintendo/weak-sauce Wii U... but it is what it is. It's gorgeous to look at indeed, but more importantly, it looks to be fun as heck. I haven't been this hyped about the franchise since MK64!
 

VanWinkle

Member
About the resolution thing, people who care about 1080p don't only care about 1080p. In threads comparing XB1 and PS4 games, we often only talk about resolution because ITS THE ONLY DIFFERENCE. So, yes, if a game has the same texture quality, shaders, effects, and lighting as another version but renders twice the amount of pixels, that's a big deal and it makes for a better looking game.

Mario Kart 8 is a very pleasing looking game, but we've already seen its graphic quality equaled in SM3DW and NintendoLand, two games that have the same engine as MK8, so it's not going to blow minds. And PS3 and 360 did deferred rendering, too, but Nintendo seems to be one of the few developers that consistently choose 60fps over 30fps. If Nintendo made MK8 on PS3, I'm sure they could have got very comparable visual quality to what it looks like on Wii U.

Well, I do tend to agree. The quality of the lighting & shadows in Mario Kart 8 is well beyond anything I've seen on PS360. It doesn't take very long to notice. The lighting in Puppeteer, for instance - which I think looked excellent - do look a bit dull and dated after a direct comparison. The the same can be said about not just the sheer amount of colors used - which is more an artistic choice - but how rich and vibrant they are, while coupled with good shading effects. While these techniques aren't totally new to consoles, the quality and extent to which it is used on Wii U, demonstrates the obvious gap in terms of modern architecture and GPU features, regardless of how many FLOP/sec it can muster.

Barring IQ due to higher resolutions, Mario Kart 8 even rivals some things seen on PS4/XB1. No, the graphics in MK8 do not exploit the cliché sweaty characters, constant explosions, or curiously wet walls everywhere, but it's not hard to appreciate its visual splendor, both artistically AND technically. For some people that's hard to admit, because; well, Nintendo/weak-sauce Wii U... but it is what it is. It's gorgeous to look at indeed, but more importantly, it looks to be fun as heck. I haven't been this hyped about the franchise since MK64!

Puppeteer's lighting is far more advanced than what we've seen of MK8.
 
Rafterman said:
Nonsense.

Nintendo colors have been like that since the advent of 3D, long before they used deferred rendering as a technique. It's their style, which I happen to like btw, but it has nothing to do with deferred rendering at all.
That's because you don't understand the context of what "colours" means in that claim and also what I'm criticizing in this thread. As I said, English is not may native language so it probably is my fault.

Metfanant said:
Killzone 2 had scenes with up to 350 light sources at the same time and was about the least "colourful" game in existence...can you point me to a source saying that MK8 has anything even approaching that number??
Which doesn't negate the fact that when someone says that the difference between MK8 and for example this game:
Mod_Nation_God_of_war_kart.jpg

is only the artstyle and the colours, he clearly doesn't know what he talks about.

Metfanant said:
im not negating those special effects...they certainly enhance the image, and significantly...but they are not responsible for the colors themselves
In THIS CASE, yes they're. If not by the huge amount of lights being used, the game wouldn't be that colourful.
That's an example of a similar game with also a colourful style, in your classical forward renderer:
sonic%20racing%207.jpg

sonic_and_all-stars_racing_transformed.jpeg


Yes, that was the point of my whole critic (which is that a lot of this "graphic first" crowd don't know anything about real graphics and only repeat a bunch of PR sentences, and can't even distinguish between an art-style and a technical feat).
 

RefigeKru

Banned
Since we're talking about fancy lights - did The Last of Us utilise a similar solution? I almost shat myself when I realised the flashlight causes light to diffuse based on the colours illuminated or is that just a neat 'trick'?
 

Ansatz

Member
It is also deeply ingrained in Nintendo fans (since we love generalizing here in this topic), that any game with color = good art style, and brown/grey (realistic) = bad art style. You see this come up almost on a daily basis. It is absurd and comical to view something as complex as art in such a simplistic way, when there is so much more nuance than that.

Not everyone thinks that vomiting the entire rainbow on a video game equals a "good art style". It can so easily look tacky and cheap.

I am not seeing this "hate" for the Wii U hardware anymore, it certainly was there several months ago but now the focus is on the Xbox One and PS4, and the vast amounts of people on this forum have forgotten all about Wii U's hardware.

It's the homogenization that's bothering me personally, generic tropes and all that which stem from focus testing; bald space marines, Tolkien based fantasy worlds, Fuse vs Overstrike.

Everything looks, sounds and plays more and more the same.

Just look at the Mario or Zelda franchises and the sheer diversity. Majora's Mask to Minish Cap. Mario Sunshine to Galaxy to 3D World. The music, gameplay, artstyles.

Link from Wind Waker looks out of place in Twilight Princess, meanwhile Lara Croft would actually work as a character in Uncharted. You get the idea.
 

Into

Member
The post is just straight up wrong. How can you say that like its a fact. Is it a fact? Can you answer that? Dont beat around the bush please.

Don't do your pseudo aggressive fake tough guy act with me, ive seen it before. Ive never seen you engage in any sort of discussion with anyone and i doubt i will be the exception.

Ill take my own advice:

If you dont like a post or a poster just ignore them

It's the homogenization that's bothering me personally, generic tropes and all that which stem from focus testing; bald space marines, Tolkien based fantasy worlds, Fuse vs Overstrike.

Everything looks, sounds and plays more and more the same.

Just look at the Mario or Zelda franchises and the sheer diversity. Majora's Mask to Minish Cap. Mario Sunshine to Galaxy to 3D World. The music, gameplay, artstyles.

Link from Wind Waker looks out of place in Twilight Princess, meanwhile Lara Croft would actually work as a character in Uncharted. You get the idea.


I see what you mean, and Wind Waker is certainly a crown jewel in terms of artistic design. I believe that WW is a easy Zelda game on purpose, to fit the happy and ease going art style of the game. Its the polar opposite of the stress ful, dark and almost depressing art style of Majoras Mask and its themes. My point was that not all colorful games equal good art, i dont think A Link Between Worlds is a good looking game, not even from a artistic point of view. Despite being one of my favorite games of last year. Yet Wind Waker is still drop dead gorgeous.

On the the other spectrum, Metro: Last Light has terrific art, yet is by all definition a very brown/grey game.
 

Metfanant

Member
That's because you don't understand the context of what "colours" means in that claim and also what I'm criticizing in this thread. As I said, English is not may native language so it probably is my fault.
well there needs to be a consensus on what colors mean...because you seem to be talking about something else...


Which doesn't negate the fact that when someone says that the difference between MK8 and for example this game:
Mod_Nation_God_of_war_kart.jpg

is only the artstyle and the colours, he clearly doesn't know what he talks about.
of course there is more to that that art style! that goes without saying


In THIS CASE, yes they're. If not by the huge amount of lights being used, the game wouldn't be that colourful.
That's an example of a similar game with also a colourful style, in your classical forward renderer:
sonic%20racing%207.jpg

sonic_and_all-stars_racing_transformed.jpeg
can you define for me what exactly you consider to be a "huge" amount of lights....

and can you then explain how, if there is a direct correlation between the amount of lights, and the colors of a game...how a game like KZ2 with 350 lights on screen at a given time is basically brown...
 
When you see the same "media" or posters then go on about how 720p is really the same as 1080p or near enough that it doesn't matter it kinda raises eyebrows.
And there's actually modern CG that look worse than Terminator 2.
Heck look at how fake Star Wars look in comparison now but that's probably because Lucas is a hack...
You can find MK8 unimpressive but then you better not consider the latest shitfest with framedrops up the wazoo to be OMG SO PRETTY either.

From what I've seen MK8 certainly looks better than CoD Ghost even on pc.
We can discuss tech specs all day but if you don't have the knowledge to back it up you look like a moron (like the op in that weird OP).
If you want to say that Frozen looks better than Wrecking Ralf you better not come up with BS reasons, which is really what is happening with just saying it's unimpressive because it doesn't have tessellation or some other BS marketing speak they learned this week.

Do I need the knowledge when we know for a fact that Wii U can't compete in tech specs, and so, their games can't match the tech used in PS4/Xbone games? I don't even need it, since the difference is clear to the eyes.

We aren't talking about technical achivements, (like MK 8 runs at constant 60 fps (I don't think we even know that for a fact) while other games have constant framerate issues), we are talking about visual fidelity.

If Witcher 3 ends being 25-30fps on PS4 I'd never could say is unimpressive in the same way MK8 is unimpressive. Because visually speaking, there's a gap the size of the grand canyon. Is there any problem with that even If I can't back it with precise tech talk? Is there any problem with people guzzing over Witcher 3 over MK8 even if the mastery (sometimes) of the hardware of Nintendo is superior, they are (sometimes) art wizards and their games runs (a few of them) at 60fps? Can't I find Pacific Rim CG way more austounding than T2 CG even if what the people behind T2 did incredible with the tech of those years? I don't need to back it up, I have eyes.
 

The Lamp

Member
You sound just as obnoxiously elitist as graphics elitists.

I don't see how people are not talking about Mario Karts gross amount of bloom lighting. It's not as bad as WWHD but Wtf at Nintendo using bloom lighting too much nowadays. It's even visible in the screenshot you posted. If it's a style choice, it's bad. If it's a graphical bug, it's worse.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
In my opinion there's only one thing more harmful to this industry than the ones that consider themselves hardcore gamers when in my opinion they should see themselves as hardcore techies or hardcore experiencers, and those are the "hardcore trendies" or in other words, people that blindly follow the "what's cool" trend without even knowing anything about the subject they're so "invested in".

One example of this is a huge part of the supposedly "graphics first" (I say supposedly because it should be expected from a "graphics first" player to at least know what "good tech" is) community of this forum, speaking about graphics in a way that clearly demonstrate that they don't understand what they're seeing.

One recent example of that is when in front of those pictures:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3787/12510267324_abef78ac6d_b.jpg
http://i.minus.com/ibx4ZLEegQTO7i.gif

Most of the graphics first posters say:
Those are "PS3/360" graphics in a more colourful style.

The logic behind those words it's of course the following one:
"The WiiU is as powerful as Xbox 360 or PS3 so it can't accomplish, technically speaking, anything that those consoles couldn't do so everything good about a WiiU game is thanks to the artstyle and anything else".

No, those "colours" are there thanks to the game using a deferred engine, which allows for a ton of light sources to be used in the scene with a much smaller computational cost while at the same time increasing the bandwidth requirements (much bigger buffers).

There's one thing as important as hardware muscle, and this is hardware architecture, and in this regard the WiiU is much ahead of those past generation consoles.

Here, there's a comparison shot between the Xbox One version of MGS V and the Xbox 360 version of the same game:
http://i.minus.com/iOJzJC7UVOpWJ.png
vs
http://i.minus.com/ibauxc9d9FseUH.png

Our "graphics first" comunity here on neogaf should point that "both games are the same technically speaking" (at least in terms of lighting) but that "the Xbox One version has a more colourful style".
No, it's not "the colour", it's THE LIGHT SOURCES!

Of course, their claim in front of those shots wouldn't be that one because here their reasoning would be:
"The Xbox One is a generation ahead of the Xbox 360, so the differences between both versions of the game are due to the enhanced processing power of the One in comparison with its predecessor".

And it's at this point where I reach the conclusion that it doesn't matter how the game looks, for the vast majority of the "graphic first" community the only thing that matters is what the "trend" says it has to matter.

The tech (the engine) used behind Mario Kart is one of the most modern there has been out there, and it's more modern than a lot of cross-gen multiplatform games such as Tomb Raider Ultimate edition for example, even when TRU can of course push the edge beyond what's technically possible on WiiU (even using more modern approaches) thanks to the superior hardware capacity of the PS4/Xbox One.

That claim is also valid for the "1080p or die" crowd. Since now what's cool is "resolution" it's (at least) sad to see how in the vast majority of graphical comparisons the resolution seems to be the first and last thing that matters.
Not the amount of light sources, nor the framerate, nor the shader quality, nor anything besides resolution. One game is 1080p and the other one is only 900p? The rest doesn't matters, the winner is the one with higher resolution, period.

I'm against putting graphics above everything else, but for god's sake, if you chose to follow that criteria at least learn a thing or two about actual graphical technologies and don't limit your claims to what should only be said by the PR manager of a certain company trying to sell their products and not caring at all about gaming or technology.

Thank you for this post. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Amazing-Awesome-Face-Teary-Eyed-Kane-Clap.gif
 
Don't do your pseudo aggressive fake tough guy act with me, ive seen it before. Ive never seen you engage in any sort of discussion with anyone and i doubt i will be the exception.

Ill take my own advice:






I see what you mean, and Wind Waker is certainly a crown jewel in terms of artistic design. I believe that WW is a easy Zelda game on purpose, to fit the happy and ease going art style of the game. Its the polar opposite of the stress ful, dark and almost depressing art style of Majoras Mask and its themes. My point was that not all colorful games equal good art, i dont think A Link Between Worlds is a good looking game, not even from a artistic point of view. Despite being one of my favorite games of last year. Yet Wind Waker is still drop dead gorgeous.

On the the other spectrum, Metro: Last Light has terrific art, yet is by all definition a very brown/grey game.
Discuss, discuss about what you claimed..? Its not correct so its not worth discussing. I dont understand how you want to discuss something thats your opinion. Not like youll change it.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Don't do your pseudo aggressive fake tough guy act with me, ive seen it before. Ive never seen you engage in any sort of discussion with anyone and i doubt i will be the exception.

Ill take my own advice:

I see nothing aggressive, pseudo or otherwise, about that post. He just asked you to explain in detail what you meant. Why is that difficult?
 

Into

Member
I see nothing aggressive, pseudo or otherwise, about that post. He just asked you to explain in detail what you meant. Why is that difficult?

I PM'd you my response, if you care.

I do not intend to derail the thread, its dealt with now.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
That's because you don't understand the context of what "colours" means in that claim and also what I'm criticizing in this thread. As I said, English is not may native language so it probably is my fault.


Which doesn't negate the fact that when someone says that the difference between MK8 and for example this game:
http://www.damepsp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Mod_Nation_God_of_war_kart.jpg
is only the artstyle and the colours, he clearly doesn't know what he talks about.


In THIS CASE, yes they're. If not by the huge amount of lights being used, the game wouldn't be that colourful.
That's an example of a similar game with also a colourful style, in your classical forward renderer:
http://www.ps3attitude.com/wp-content/gallery/sonic-sega-all-stars-racing/sonic racing 7.jpg
http://nintendoinvader.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/sonic_and_all-stars_racing_transformed.jpeg

Yes, that was the point of my whole critic (which is that a lot of this "graphic first" crowd don't know anything about real graphics and only repeat a bunch of PR sentences, and can't even distinguish between an art-style and a technical feat).

Freezamite, I understand what you are trying to say all to well. I've been there many times, but it is wasted.

Just as you said, most of the big talkers about graphics lack any real understanding about tech other than "XXXX" has big numbers than "XXXX". I learned this years ago.

I've given up trying to explain the these things to people. Most of their choices are governed by bias as opposed to any fact or technical knowledge.

It always leads down the same road. You post evidence of your claim, they respond with fallacies, personal attacks and repeatedly change the subject. I've run into this everywhere I've been. Its not meral a gaf thing, and sadly, they seem to be in the majority these days or at least are the most outspoken and covered.

For most of the people, all it really is to them is a completion just like a football game where they will root for their team(console) no matter what and put down the other team no matter what. Its just sad that these inaccurate opinions all too often get accepted as correct and factual.

The part that is really disappointing me is that it is even furthered by supposed professionals who should know better, because their bias is so strong or they have some other agenda(clickbait headlines, etc).

It would be nice to have a tech discussion that was strictly limited to tech and not constantly derailed by personal preferences.
 

Ty4on

Member
It's the homogenization that's bothering me personally, generic tropes and all that which stem from focus testing; bald space marines, Tolkien based fantasy worlds, Fuse vs Overstrike.

Everything looks, sounds and plays more and more the same.

Just look at the Mario or Zelda franchises and the sheer diversity. Majora's Mask (14) to Minish Cap (9). Mario Sunshine (12) to Galaxy (7) to 3D World (1). The music, gameplay, artstyles.

Link from Wind Waker (12) looks out of place in Twilight Princess (7), meanwhile Lara Croft (1) would actually work as a character in Uncharted (3-7). You get the idea.

I put the age behind each title to put some perspective on why they were so different. This was true, but is sadly not very true now :(
Nintendo used to make their sequels as unique as possible, but then during the Wii/DS era they saw how much money direct sequels and remakes made. Small example, but it feels like a microcosm that pre NSMB only SMB and the japanese SMB2 had flagpoles. Now it's suddenly a requirement for a Mario game...

Edit: I must add that MK8 does a much better job innovating. It looks like one of the best WiiU titles despite me not being a MK fan.
 

Metfanant

Member
It always leads down the same road. You post evidence of your claim, they respond with fallacies, personal attacks and repeatedly change the subject. I've run into this everywhere I've been. Its not simply gaf and sadly, they seem to be in the majority these day, or at least the most outspoken and covered.

see...here is the problem...im BEGGING for some "evidence" simply saying that MK8 has a "huge amount of lights" is not evidence...how many? where is the source for the info? no evidence has been provided at all actually...to the contrary, the only evidence is against what is presented in the OP

ive asked a lot of questions and have not been given a single answer...
 

MarkusRJR

Member
The premise is that if someone claims that graphics are first, then they should be the most educated on that subject of the whole forum and not just people repeating a bunch of PR sentences without knowing what they're talking about.

English is not my native language so that may be the problem though.
Not trying to be mean, but you can love and have a brief understanding of game visuals without having to know the finer points. Just like how I don't need to know the intricacies of movie directing to enjoy a well directed film. Nintendo's games have their own visual appeal, but they rarely tend to push the boundaries of modern graphics. If you limit yourself to Nintendo you'd probably be impressed by the tech, but a lot of the people on NeoGAF aren't living in a Nintendo-only bubble.

And in regards to repeating PR lines, a lot of people don't know the correct terminology for a lot of things. Just because they don't know the right terms doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the differences between specific games and less technically proficient ones. That's just you making assumptions.

Basically, not everyone has the same values as you and you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with your opinions.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
see...here is the problem...im BEGGING for some "evidence" simply saying that MK8 has a "huge amount of lights" is not evidence...how many? where is the source for the info? no evidence has been provided at all actually...to the contrary, the only evidence is against what is presented in the OP

ive asked a lot of questions and have not been given a single answer...

??? You understand what evidence means right? He has provived plenty. whether you accept or not, or find it conclusive is a personal matter.

As it stands, he has provided much, while most naysayers have provided nothing. You seem to be looking for definitive proof which is something different and not easily found in any argument.
 

x86

Neo Member
There's one thing as important as hardware muscle, and this is hardware architecture, and in this regard the WiiU is much ahead of those past generation consoles.
Could you mention in which ways it is ahead, specifically? I have no idea if it is or isn't, but I'd rather not simply assume.

The tech (the engine) used behind Mario Kart is one of the most modern there has been out there, and it's more modern than a lot of cross-gen multiplatform games such as Tomb Raider Ultimate edition for example,
Source? I don't see how you could know that without actually having access to both engines.
 

Metfanant

Member
??? You understand what evidence means right? He has provived plenty. whether you accept or not, or find it conclusive is a personal matter.

oh please point me to the answers to these questions....

- Max number of light sources present at any given time in MK8?
- Same question for the Sonic game posted
- How, if color and light sources is directly proprtional is KZ2 so colorless with 350 light sources on the screen at once?
- An explanation as to how Mario64 uses the same color palette as MK8 but is not using a deferred renderer
- an actual definition for what the OP considers to be "color"
- any and all technical information regarding the rendering engine of MK8...poly counts, texture resolutions etc...
 

Ansatz

Member
I put the age behind each title to put some perspective on why they were so different. This was true, but is sadly not very true now :(
Nintendo used to make their sequels as unique as possible, but then during the Wii/DS era they saw how much money direct sequels and remakes made. Small example, but it feels like a microcosm that pre NSMB only SMB and the japanese SMB2 had flagpoles. Now it's suddenly a requirement for a Mario game...

Edit: I must add that MK8 does a much better job innovating. It looks like one of the best WiiU titles despite me not being a MK fan.

I disagree

2000
Banjo Kazooie -> Banjo Tooie
Paper Mario -> Paper Mario TTYD
Metroid Prime -> Metroid Prime 2
Pikmin -> Pikmin 2

2010
Super Paper Mario -> Sticker Star
Metroid Prime 3 -> Other M
Twilight Princess -> Skyward Sword
Mario Galaxy -> Mario 3D World

I cherrypicked 4 direct sequels from the olde days and 4 unique sequels post Iwata.
 
OP, you sound really mad. Don't be - getting angry at the internet is never going to be productive.

Now, if you want reasonable discussion about the Wii U's capabilities, and how / where they're better than the PS3 / 360, there are places you can get that - there were a couple of good GAF threads. There aren't very many such places, though, admittedly - but that's Nintendo's fault. They refuse to release specs or really tout their hardware's capabilities much at all.
 
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