I know what he said. That's what i meant. NX CPU should not compare unfavorably. The jump he descibed was about 20-30% from PS4 to NX, judging by how much the PS4 to XBO jump is. Maybe NX 's CPU will be a more modern chip with extra benefits. In any case, i'm guessing them to be in the same ballpark.
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Nintendo's Supplemental Computing Devices patent allowed by USPTO, rejection cleared*
I know what he said. That's what i meant. NX CPU should not compare unfavorably. The jump he descibed was about 20-30% from PS4 to NX, judging by how much the PS4 to XBO jump is. Maybe NX 's CPU will be a more modern chip with extra benefits. In any case, i'm guessing them to be in the same ballpark.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Let's just say the NX console is a little 1-1.5TF console, but Nintendo can sell it for $249.
Then they sell an SCD which has the exact same CPU/GPU as the console, and maybe half the RAM because it doesn't have an OS to run. It doesn't need internal storage or a cartridge/disc drive or any extra shit that the actual console needs. So Nintendo can sell the SCD for $100-150.
And then let's say the NX can use more than one of these SCDs.
AcademicSaucer
Member
I hope they are, still interested in LCGeek talking about this news tho.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Imagine NX handheld being used to enhance the capabilities of the NX console. If multiple people in your home owns NX handheld, it boosts it power even more. Hell, imagine if your neighbors have the handheld boosting it.
This is just wishful thinking on my part though. Would be an interesting idea if it works that way.
This is just wishful thinking on my part though. Would be an interesting idea if it works that way.
This would be useful for multi-screen local multiplayer.
Mr. Pointy
Member
They should call the SCD the Nintendo Power.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
What kind of clown toy?
Not following.
Possumowner
Member
Wait...is this the new NX please be excited thread.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
That's a coherency protocol interconnect - namely, the fabric that connects memory controllers and memory agents such CPU clusters, GPU clusters, etc.
That one in particular is IIRC one of the earliest implementations allowing for efficient GTS/HMP - a scheduling technique using bigLITTLE clusters in full - i.e. where all cores are visible to the scheduler at any moment, so that in a setup of, say, 4x LITTLE and 4x big cores a task sees 8 (heterogeneous) cores, as opposed to the task alternating between LITTLE and big cores.
To bring in some relevance to the subject at hand - if nintendo used a bigLITTLE setup in any of their home or handheld units, they'd want HMP - that is, full visibility of the cores, so that the OS could use the LITTLE cores simultaneously with the apps using the big cores. But CCI-500 or CCI-550 would be much better candidates.
Also cloud based? Isn't that much too slow? And if that would be an option, what's to stop them from using the WiiU as main console, and just have it connect over wifi-direct with an SCD right beside it? And Wouldn't even the USB2 drive be faster than wifi? It would solve the disc drive (cost) issue, backwards compatibility issue...
This all seems far fetched, even though i know Microsoft was bragging about the power of the cloud, but i just don't see how it would ever be fast enough to render on the fly.
I do not think cloud computing is far fetched anymore. Personally, I was blown away with the PSNow service as far as video streaming and basic input streaming was concerned.
That certainly sounds great, and it would be a cheaper alternative to outright buying a new system!
Out of curiosity, how high could this thing fly? Just for comparison, pretend the NX has exactly the same power as a PS4. Taking into account hardware constraints (bus size was mentioned earlier, for instance), how much extra power could be had through SCDs? I'm just curious how far a console's life/generation/whatever could be extended this way, because surely you'd have to hit a max point where you'd have to upgrade!
I'm going to start viewing it as that for the time being! I don't know the rules for what types of threads can be started now. It somewhat seems "news" based, but there are tons of threads that have nothing to do with new news. It'd be great to have an NX thread where everyone can just let everything out in a contained environment!
Barring that, it'd be great if there was a new "What we know about NX with sources" thread made with some updates. People started clamoring over rumors for a while and that ultimately did the thread in!
Starchasing
Member
The Wii U pad is just receiving a video stream over Wifi N . No magic chips or anything. Thats why it only works on short ranges.
Thats why the idea of a SCD is not anything crazy at all.
The NX might even be a normal handheld that can be paired to a SCD to play games on a TV or console games on a handheld at home
Thats why the idea of a SCD is not anything crazy at all.
The NX might even be a normal handheld that can be paired to a SCD to play games on a TV or console games on a handheld at home
Theoretically there wouldn't be a limit as you could just keep swapping out better SCD's.
Assuming the system has a way to completely offload the processing to the SCD that isn't bandwidth constrained that is.
Graphics Horse
Member
There's no limit in theory as long as you have the bandwidth to send the video and audio one way and the network/media information the other way, as the ultimate configuration would be something like a segacd/32x type system. I'm kind of confused why people are so excited for that kind of idea though.
Skittzo0413
Member
There are two limiting factors to this setup (as far as I can tell):
1. Connection speed: if we theoretically keep adding SCD after SCD in a daisy chain manner described in the patent, eventually the connection speed will drop and some processing issues will crop up. Now, an alternative to this is to only allow 1-3 of any type of SCD to connect, and then come out with SCD2.0, or a twice as powerful SCD to take the place of two previous SCDs.
2. Fragmentation of the user base: if Nintendo allows users to use as many SCDs as they want, so that maybe an enthusiast graphics lover connects 10 SCDs to their console to match a high end PC (hypothetical/theoretical of course), Nintendo would need to allow their games to scale appropriately depending on the amount of SCDs attached.
Frankly, I think #2 is a bigger issue because, while scaling between 2-3 different power levels is rather easy these days thanks to middleware like UE4, supporting any number of configurations (a la PC) is not something console game devs would ever want to do, especially Nintendo's teams. Which is kinda why they stick to their own consoles.
I see the SCD being used as a 1 time upgrade per SCD model, so that you can have the base NX, and then the Super NX by buying and attaching the Super SCD (or a better name). Also this could make the NX future proof and allow it to be upgraded indefinitely, so that everyone who wants to play a Nintendo game for the next, say, 10-15 years MUST buy at least the NX base console. If marketed properly, that would be a terrific incentive to get people to buy in early, and build a large userbase from the beginning.
Edit: And yes, I would love if we could have a general NX speculation thread, because that discussion in the last one about the pros and cons of cartridges was really fascinating, and I'd love somewhere to discuss the inevitable "gimmick" but I suggest we stick to talking about the SCD patent in this thread.
Bots are better than you
Banned
I think there was one, but got closed, although i might be wrong and it was just one of those Reddit rumor threads we hade dozens of.
Still, such a thread should first be given a go by the mods, especially after the last batch of such threads went ways.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
We had a general NX thread called What we know so far about the Nintendo NX with sources. Great thread, but it was locked due to topic derailment.
Mega threads are as far as I know no longer allowed, so something like WUST (Wii U Speculation Thread) we won't see a repeat of. As you mention, a general thread should be first approved by the moderators. If such a thread is to exist it should in my opinion be exclusively based on facts and transparency, not rumors on reddit etc.
Also, first and foremost I would like to see discussion about the SCD in this thread. Discussions about that in connection to NX is of course welcome, but general comments on NX should go elsewhere.
Yes their was a general thread for NX, it has been closed because the thread was about rumors and speculations. Just like the ps4k thread that is still open.
We know the NX is a sure thing, we don't know that about ps4k, but are almost sure it will come.
The reason why it was closed:
It probably happen because we got too many rumors from reddit that are confirmed to be fake.
I hope we soon get a decent Nx thread again.
Skittzo0413
Member
So back to SCD stuff:
Does anyone knowledgeable about tech like this know if there is any appreciable difference in having the SCD connect to the console via a port/thunderbolt connection versus having it directly plug into the physical console itself, sort of like the expansion pack?
I'm visualizing a very modular console that can look different depending on which SCD you connect to the console. Maybe we'll get SCD amiibos haha
Does anyone knowledgeable about tech like this know if there is any appreciable difference in having the SCD connect to the console via a port/thunderbolt connection versus having it directly plug into the physical console itself, sort of like the expansion pack?
I'm visualizing a very modular console that can look different depending on which SCD you connect to the console. Maybe we'll get SCD amiibos haha
Bots are better than you
Banned
Well, no need to make a new thread then. ^^ Not that i would have made it or asked the mods, i'd like to be around here come E³ time. ;]Rösti;201344190 said:
Back to the SDC topic, i'm not a fan of this intermediate hardware (like PS4K), mainly due to having paid the full 400 at the PS4 vanilla launch, and now possibly having to pay at least the same amount for the 4K variant.
So, for me, to make this SDC strategy work, pricing is king. Any speculations on what impact such SDCs could have on the wallet? Or are we talking "starting point to open end"?
Seems like quality of service wouldn't be so great when you start throwing consumers boxes into the mix though. Sony is working with a controlled environment, here you'd be sending packets to some dude that is streaming 4k Netflix.
Thank you for the responses!
I keep seeing that there would be no limit, and I guess it just seems (as mentioned) like a Sega 32x sort of thing where it'd upgrade but still have some sort of constraint. But, hardware processes have probably come a long way since then, and as mentioned, as long as the bandwidth is controlled it's no problem. Plus, it may just be a matter of what things get routed where.
But, I guess you'd have to hit a point sometime where it makes more sense to upgrade the hardware itself? That's probably up to Nintendo though for when that'd be. Ridiculous thought, but I'm imagining taking a SNES and SCD-ing the innards from a PS4 to it so that the SNES is the main system and processing through the PS4. Really, Really Super Mario World.
Oh, another thought though...
Remember how you could stick in a flash drive into a Windows computer and use the spare space as "extra RAM" while it was there? I don't believe they allow this anymore. But, in the case of external hard drives, is this a process that actually works? I'm sure it has limits too. I guess they would just put extra RAM into the SCD, but if they could put a hard drive instead for storage and RAM boosting, I'm wondering if they'd go for that instead.
Yes, I am hardware ignorant.
Yeah, game scaling is an issue for sure as there'd be a limit at some point for any one game at any one point in time. I see the SCD thing as pretty cool, but maybe once or twice a generation at most, just to try and get closer to the higher levels or performance out there (probably on a PC at any point).
Skittzo0413, I think you mentioned in the last thread about a modular console. They have modular cell phones now, so why not? Yeah, this thread should stay focused on SCDs, but I'm debating between starting a new thread discussing the feasibility of console cartridge gaming currently or collecting a few patents and things to discuss Nintendo possibly creating a modular console, and their interests and pursuits thereof (such as the oft made fun of fact that Wii U can apparently use anything back to a GBC to play games now). Since you're a junior still, we can PM and discuss those thoughts and can get such a thread going if you're interested? That way I don't contribute to leading this thread astray anymore, haha!
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Can anyone seriously imagine Nintendo getting a more powerful CPU from AMD for a console releasing earlier than the Sony one?
Skittzo0413
Member
The major difference between this and PS4k/NEO is that in this scenario you have only one console and then you buy an upgrade, rather than a replacement. Depending on what Nintendo are planning, you could get away with selling an SCD with nothing but an extra GPU and some RAM, or potentially a CPU in there too, but there would not necessarily be any need for a power supply, HDD, disc drive, typical console connectors, and so on.
So the SCD at a minimum is a relatively simple box which could have somewhat beefy hardware but since they cut out all of the parts which add up in a console, it would be pretty cheap.
I sorta picture it as an Alienware Graphics Amplifier, which is essentially a box which adds to your laptop's processing power and turns it into a higher end PC. Those seem to go for about $150-$200 but I'm betting Nintendo's version would be quite a bit cheaper, and also a bit lower in power.
R
Rösti
Unconfirmed Member
Here's an important thing from the detailed descriptions of the patent:
Of course, this is just one embodiment, nothing says the SCD has to exclude a GPU etc. Just something to think about.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Yeah, if pricing is low enough on these SDCs, i might cope with this more frequent, incremental upgrade stuff.
"The Sony one"? Which one is that? The one from the "Neo" (PS4k)? A beefed up console that has to remain 100% backwards compatible with a console of 3 years old? That "one"?
Yeah, i can imagine that. That's not really hard to do, and still not out of the question, since we know the PS4k CPU is only a 30% increase from the underpowered CPU they released 3 years ago.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
http://arstechnica.co.uk/gaming/2016/04/ps4k-neo-details-specs-revealed-rumours/
I hope those doubled CUs have some really potent BW saving capabilities alongside..
I hope those doubled CUs have some really potent BW saving capabilities alongside..
Graphics Horse
Member
Rösti;201346112 said:
Yeah the feeling I get at least one idea in the patent suggests some kind of proprietary external hard drive with bit torrent style networking.
I want my giant Rosalina SCD amiibo right now.
Skittzo0413
Member
I know cloud processing is a big focus of the patent, but I don't see Nintendo using that any time in the near future. Nintendo's gimmicks/innovations typically focus on things that work perfectly, all of the time (personal Wiimote issues notwithstanding).
Unless they've made some remarkable breakthroughs in this technology, I just don't see how they could see the cloud SCD functions as anywhere near reliable, especially because the cloud connection depends greatly on existing wifi connections and ISPs which are out of the control of Nintendo.
If cloud functions are involved when/if they use this technology I seriously doubt they will be the focus, beyond simple things like cloud saves.
Jim_Cacher
Member
I am not a tech guy, these two main points are what I get:
1) It is possible that Nintendo can indefinitely upgrade NX's power
2) The SCD does not necessarily have all components from the base unit, thereby resulting in a lower price
I get these two main ideas. But they also results in questions like the PS4k does, isn't it? Developers need to adapt to the system and need to think which iteration they are going after. I know gaming development is not like hitting a button, bam, the framerate or resolution suddenly goes up. Hopefully SCD will not be launched at the same time with base unit as this is likely coercing the consumers to buy a SCD at launch.
If NX does adopt SCD concept, there is one advantage over PS4. PS4k pisses off many current PS4 owners since many owners do not think it is justifiable to buy a relatively similar console after mere three years. But NX is not going to have this problem since the concept is going to be introduced to the consumers before the user base is actually form. I could see many people will buy NX instead of PS4k if Nintendo presents a decent prospect in third-party relationships and has strong launch titles for NX. Of course, all of these are based on the fact that SCD is actually adopted.
1) It is possible that Nintendo can indefinitely upgrade NX's power
2) The SCD does not necessarily have all components from the base unit, thereby resulting in a lower price
I get these two main ideas. But they also results in questions like the PS4k does, isn't it? Developers need to adapt to the system and need to think which iteration they are going after. I know gaming development is not like hitting a button, bam, the framerate or resolution suddenly goes up. Hopefully SCD will not be launched at the same time with base unit as this is likely coercing the consumers to buy a SCD at launch.
If NX does adopt SCD concept, there is one advantage over PS4. PS4k pisses off many current PS4 owners since many owners do not think it is justifiable to buy a relatively similar console after mere three years. But NX is not going to have this problem since the concept is going to be introduced to the consumers before the user base is actually form. I could see many people will buy NX instead of PS4k if Nintendo presents a decent prospect in third-party relationships and has strong launch titles for NX. Of course, all of these are based on the fact that SCD is actually adopted.
GinoFelino
Member
That drawing is comedy perfection.
Basically for the reasons Skittzo0413 stated. It's going to be limited by the connection speed. So most likely can't be connected through a wire or wireless.
If they are going to fragment the user base, why not just release a base model and an elite model? There is no difference.
I see this as a potential solution in a couple of years if they go the itetative console route, but who knows where we will be by then.
It's probably going to be more along the line of a single SCU that can be swapped out every few years for a boost.
At least that is what makes the most sense to me.
I question how cost effective that would be after a couple of iterations. I can see it being useful once, but after that, it'd be better just to upgrade the base system. It would also potentially cause even more fragmentation as there could be lots of different combinations.
First time this patent rolled around I was super interested. It's so weird, I can't help but love it.
But I'm wondering how they handle game development and if there's ever going to be tiered requirements. "You need X SCDs to run this game!" They did it before, sort of, with the N64, but that wasn't as theoretically unlimited and/or powerful as this idea.
CURIOUS.
EDIT: Not to mention that whole "letting other people use your console when you're not" thing, which is hooboy some crazy cloud computing shit I never thought Nintendo would even approach!
But I'm wondering how they handle game development and if there's ever going to be tiered requirements. "You need X SCDs to run this game!" They did it before, sort of, with the N64, but that wasn't as theoretically unlimited and/or powerful as this idea.
CURIOUS.
EDIT: Not to mention that whole "letting other people use your console when you're not" thing, which is hooboy some crazy cloud computing shit I never thought Nintendo would even approach!
Well assuming the same base and proper SDK it should work just like android app store games with complete backwards and forwards compatibility.
ex. I buy the NX today with a bundled SCD. 3 years from now they release an upgraded SCD+ that can run games better.
3 years later they release the SCD 2.
Then after 6 or so years drop official support for the original.
If they used the color buffer compression from GCN 1.2 (which should be invisible to software, so they should be able to include without any BC issues), then, according to AMD, they should be able to get away with 40% less bandwidth. And 176*2*0.6 = 211, so they'd theoretically be almost exactly doubling the effective bandwidth.
To bring this back on topic, I still can't think of a business model which would support the implementation of this patent in its broadest implementation (however the narrow case of using it for the purposes of a distributed low-latency streaming infrastructure which I described in the old thread still seems plausible to me). It's fascinating to think of being able to bolt on an SCD to enhance your console's abilities, but I can't see how that would be sold to console-owners (who tend to like consoles for their simplicity) and I can't see third party devs being happy to have to target a bunch of extra hardware configurations, especially when Nintendo are struggling to get their support in the first place. Having variable connection methods, with different bandwidth, latency and reliability, would make this even worse.
That's not that I don't think there is a potential business case for this, but at the moment I don't see it.
Skittzo0413
Member
Well another problem that crops up if that's the future plan for the next 2-3 generations, is that you'd end up with a lot of SCD's that Nintendo fans have bought which will become obsolete, so they'll just be sitting on a shelf somewhere. That's different from traditional consoles becoming obsolete because traditional consoles are still standalone machines that can play games, but obsolete SCD's would just be useless bricks at that point.
I wonder if they have a 10-15 year roadmap planned, where the NX base comes with SCD1, which can directly and physically be inserted into a slot on the console like the expansion pack- this gives it the best connection speed- and then in 3-4 years SCD2 comes out, which connects directly to either SCD1 or the base NX. Fast forward 15 years, and you can have a console with 5 SCDs plugged into one another, each one more advanced than the last, which gives you the highest power NX configuration.
Then again that sounds awfully complicated for the consumer and introduces way more problems with scaling, so scratch that.