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NPD Sales Numbers for November 2008

onipex

Member
Saint Gregory said:
That's the other thing. When the Wii launched Nintendo probably really wanted to reverse the trends of the previous two generations because they felt it lead to their downfall, but with the success they're seeing now without the help of third parties you really have to wonder if they wouldn't prefer things the way they are and keep the whole pie to themselves.

In Japan you see them actively courting big games (possibly because the Wii isn't dominating there, handhelds are) but in the western markets it seems like they couldn't give a fuck.


Really, so saying they want GTA on the Wii and getting Ubisoft to make Red Steel for a launch title is acting like they don't care? They also talked a lot about how the Wiimote would be great for FPS and how they hope third parties would make the M rated games for the core market that they don't. They are also staying vocal about 3rd parties needing to step up on game quality.

You have to understand that Nintendo wants the core market too, even though they have the casual market. Their own actions of releasing almost all of their top IPs already shows this. Having the core market is good business and you can look at 360 software sales to see why. If they didn't want the core market they could release Wii Pokemon vs Mario next year along with Wii Sports Resort and take the rest of the year off.
 

Narcosis

Member
Opiate said:
Just for the record, I can come up with a much better hypothesis than "Nintendo is magical" that also is much more logically robust.

I think virtually all game publishers approach game design in a slightly different way from Nintendo. I think companies like EA and Ubisoft approach a game and ask, "What demographic does this appeal to?" And then work their hardest to make it appeal even more to them. If it's a shooter, it's going to appeal to males age 16-35. Therefore, add more profanity and violence, add somber tones and grizzled men. If the game has animals in it, put as much pink on the cover as you can, and make the game as cute as possible. This makes the game appeal more to 16-35 year old males (or 6-14 year old girls, respecitvely), but also tends to make other demographics even less inclined to purchase that software. That's the approach though, and in the past its worked: pick a demographic, and nail it as hard as you possibly can.

By comparison, Nintendo seem to approach all demographics -- boys, girls, men, women, and the elderly -- with a single game. I think this does have a weakness: these types of games tend to appeal less strongly to any single demographic than a game that was targeted exclusively to them would, but overall tends to sell more. Put more simply, a Nintendo game may grab 1/3 of each demographic, but appeal to all demographics in the process, while an EA game may appeal to 4/5 of a single demographic, but have virtually no appeal outside of that.

This may seem like a fairly minor distinction, but it dramatically changes how games sell on a Nintendo system. I think the Wii is built on the backs of a wide variety of consumers: boys, girls, men, women, and the elderly. All of them. Hardcore gamers and casual ones, old school gamers who like the VC and new wave ones, too.

In that particular environment, companies like Nintendo do well, because that particular hardware has a wide variety of consumers. Games that target a single demographic -- whether that demographic be exclusively 16-35 year old males like Call of Duty or exclusively 6-14 year old girls like Dogz -- will do less well, although the user base is big enough now that they can do well enough if executed properly.

That is why they struggle. That's my theory, at least. This is something they can alter, but it's very challenging. Changing your entire philosophy of game design is a very difficult thing to do, even if it may not sound like it.


I'd just like to say I think there's a lot of validity to this, but I also tend to think not every game needs to appeal to all crowds. Sure it's great if you have a game like Wii Sports that crosses so many boundaries in playability that anyone can enjoy it. And I also think there's nothing wrong with creating a game that appeals to a narrower focused audience.

However, where I think the problem lies with some of these more narrowly focused products is that you get people creating these things without an understanding of the very people who they want to appeal to. There's no reason why any given Petz style game can't be as popular as Nintendogs except for the fact that the creators probably create it in a way they think will be good without really knowing what gameplay elements will be appealing to the average pre teen girl.

These are probably people who grew up playing RPGs, shooters, action games and sports titles now trying to create something they themselves probably don't have a good understanding of, and I think it's this lack of knowledge that makes "shovelware" possible. I don't think anyone goes into any project trying to make a bad game, I think it's more due to too much input and design by people without a clear grasp of what the gamers they are hoping buy their product really want.
 

Opiate

Member
Kilrogg said:
@Opiate: do you agree with me that, in a way, you could say that Nintendo tries to design their games around specific jobs, while the others design them around specific audiences?

Not saying this is the case with each and every Nintendo game, but, you know, as a general rule...

I think that's a succinct way of putting it, yes. We might come to minor quibbles, but we largely agree.
 

Chumly

Member
WarLox said:
repost:




pics


This is why the Wii and 360 can coexist.
So they are saying that in november Wii Third Party units sold and revenue >> 360 Third Party units sold and revenue????


But they still lead overall?
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
-ImaginaryInsider said:
He can characterize whatever he wants because he stated it as in his opinion.

He's allowed to do that, even when the Wii sells 2 million in a month.

He stated two opinions in his post: first, that his friends don't mean "jack" to him; second, that "it" is a failure--presumably, by "it" he was referring to the Wii, but his previous discussion had been regarding Nintendo's game releases, so "it" could refer to their game library. He then made an assumption, that if BishopLamont likes "Nintendo's output as of late" then they are successful to BishopLamont. This statement in itself isn't necessarily true, but his DEFINITION of "Nintendo's output" was "(Wii Play/Fit/Music/Sports)."

I couldn't care less about his opinions--whether about his friends or the Wii--but his definition was obviously flawed, as it omitted the great majority of Nintendo-published Wii software. An analogous argument would be if I said, "If you like the games on 360 (Alone in the Dark/Sonic the Hedgehog 2006/Bomberman: Act Zero/Two Worlds), then the 360 is successful in your eyes." Obviously, there's something wrong with my definition, but I, like he, simply chose four titles that I thought I could get trolls to agree are bad things to enjoy, and then pretended they were representative of the entire library.
 
onipex said:
Really, so saying they want GTA on the Wii and getting Ubisoft to make Red Steel for a launch title is acting like they don't care? They also talked a lot about how the Wiimote would be great for FPS and how they hope third parties would make the M rated games for the core market that they don't. They are also staying vocal about 3rd parties needing to step up on game quality.

You have to understand that Nintendo wants the core market too, even though they have the casual market. Their own actions of releasing almost all of their top IPs already shows this. Having the core market is good business and you can look at 360 software sales to see why. If they didn't want the core market they could release Wii Pokemon vs Mario next year along with Wii Sports Resort and take the rest of the year off.

No, they certainly did the right things at launch but look where we stand now. A holiday with no notable 3rd party games and the only one doing well is GH:WT as expected. The top ten is dominated by titles they released months ago and it's not impossible to imagine that they secretly love it that way.

amtentori said:
I have a theory that a certain game is to take a load of the blame for the lack of good core third party efforts on wii.... and that is Red steel. The game was so bad that it basically made the wii controls seem more inaccurate for games than it actually was.

Imagine the opposite. had red steel been amazing wii would probably have tons of FPS by now. Red steel sold over a million copies with terrible reviews... no doubt it would have been more if it was great and wii would have an established fanbase for these types of games.

That's also a damn good point.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Opiate said:
I think that's a succinct way of putting it, yes. We might come to minor quibbles, but we largely agree.

What would be those minor quibbles? I'd like you to elaborate on that, if you don't mind :).

At any rate, I agree with your original post, which I thought was very good. I wasn't able to express it as well as you do, and my angle was slightly different anyway (job vs. audience).

Read something some time ago about modern marketing techniques that tend to equate product with audience because, when those theories were invented, the jobs and the audiences were so closely related that the theory seemed to work. See how hoovers, when they were new, were marketed towards housewives, for instance. It just so happened that housewives were actually the ones who needed hoovers.
 

onipex

Member
amtentori said:
emulating nintendo is one approach, but it might not be the answer...

as a publisher you can also grow a certain demographic on a console... for example rpgs were popular on the ps1 because of square enix. madden popular on ps2 because of EA, etc. capcom had success on the GC and wii with RE.

first party titles also help, for example halo opened the way for shooters on xbox.

its not easy, but i think we can all agree that more effort is usually better.

I have a theory that a certain game is to take a load of the blame for the lack of good core third party efforts on wii.... and that is Red steel. The game was so bad that it basically made the wii controls seem more inaccurate for games than it actually was.

Imagine the opposite. had red steel been amazing wii would probably have tons of FPS by now. Red steel sold over a million copies with terrible reviews... no doubt it would have been more if it was great and wii would have an established fanbase for these types of games.

I can never agree with statements like this because there was not a flood of action rpgs after Zelda sold well, or a flood of platformers after Mario. Third parties went with the "it sells because of Wii Sports" theory and opened those flood gates.

The game media pushed that theory even harder and wrote off any first party core sells as the " it's sells because it's a Nintendo game" theory. Just like RE4 sold because it was a RE game . Matt over at IGN still harps about Carnival Games outselling Metroid even though Mario Party has done it for years on the GameCube. If Red Steel got good reviews and sold well it would have gotten the " it sold because it was a launch title" theory stuck to it. In fact I saw that in a few articles.
 
Narcosis said:
I'd just like to say I think there's a lot of validity to this, but I also tend to think not every game needs to appeal to all crowds. Sure it's great if you have a game like Wii Sports that crosses so many boundaries in playability that anyone can enjoy it. And I also think there's nothing wrong with creating a game that appeals to a narrower focused audience.

However, where I think the problem lies with some of these more narrowly focused products is that you get people creating these things without an understanding of the very people who they want to appeal to. There's no reason why any given Petz style game can't be as popular as Nintendogs except for the fact that the creators probably create it in a way they think will be good without really knowing what gameplay elements will be appealing to the average pre teen girl.

These are probably people who grew up playing RPGs, shooters, action games and sports titles now trying to create something they themselves probably don't have a good understanding of, and I think it's this lack of knowledge that makes "shovelware" possible. I don't think anyone goes into any project trying to make a bad game, I think it's more due to too much input and design by people without a clear grasp of what the gamers they are hoping buy their product really want.

The thing I've noticed is that the hardcore crowd aggressively wants you to narrow focus and it tends to get narrower and narrower in each iteration and sequel

Nintendo tends to fight against that trend. Even their niche stuff doesn't tend to get as targeted as narrowly as the games on the PS3 and 360.

As they narrow focus of course they often tend to get more complex control wise and appeal wise the content within the game is only focused towards that narrowing demo. Nintendo reset the table this gen with the Wii which is the really smart part because they had started to trend down the narrow alley the other two companies occupied and they weren't as good as creating game for that model.
 

Accident

Member
Chumly said:
So they are saying that in november Wii Third Party units sold and revenue >> 360 Third Party units sold and revenue????


But they still lead overall?

Launch aligned the Wii has been selling more third party games for a while, but the 360 still has the lead.

* Total third party sales for the Xbox 360 since launch is currently 67,929,999 units, followed by the Wii at 33,394,311 units and the PlayStation 3 at 19,976,325 units.

* Third party sales for the Xbox 360 since the launch of the Wii and PS3 is 54,065,728 units, still almost double the Wii's 33,394,311 units.

* If you take the total number of units sold and divide that by the number of titles released since November 2006, the Xbox 360 and the PS3 are selling more units per title on average than the Wii. This puts the Xbox 360 at 217,252 units per title, the PS3 at 156,065 units and the Wii at 132,517 units.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-the-wii-third-party-game-story-is-not-a-pretty-one
 
Reading the 33k for Valkyria was like being punched in the gut. I even knew it was going to bomb as anime style strategy rpg ps3 exclusive with no marketing would have but it still so dissapointing.
 

onipex

Member
Saint Gregory said:
No, they certainly did the right things at launch but look where we stand now. A holiday with no notable 3rd party games and the only one doing well is GH:WT as expected. The top ten is dominated by titles they released months ago and it's not impossible to imagine that they secretly love it that way.

They would be making more money if more Wii third party titles posted in the top ten along with their first party titles that are there. I'm sure they wouldn't cry over Wii Play falling out of the top ten to COD5 Wii. More big profile third party sales could bring in more third party pubs and devs and make them even more money.


I don't think they have stopped trying to work things out with third parties. The GTA DS news had something about Nintendo and RockStar being in talks and working on a relationship even before the Wii launched. They made a point if saying it is still an on going process.

Nintendo keeps talking about the blue ocean and that doesn't mean getting the lower market and staying happy with it. They want those hungry core gamers buying up games for the Wii so they have to want the games those gamers want.
 

doicare

Member
Sadist said:
No, on other consoles they have decent third party support and those help the console library of the other 2. Wii has very little. Then it all comes down to first party, but Nintendo put all it's heavy hitters out at the ending of 2007 and the beginning of 2008. Those are the titles of their top studios, who worked a long time on these games. It's only logical that they didn't have time for other AAA projects to work om.

BUT, that's a big mistake of course. They should have had something big, but they missmanaged. Or, if they had a decent third party support, that would hide the fact that their own output at the end of the year was pretty underwhelming. Again, they made a gamble and it didn't pay off. It would have been better if they had some fail safe.

Well actually no, with launches aligned this is what the state of first party games looks like (bolded games being Q4 games):

Second full year on 360:
Mass Effect
Scene It? Lights, Camera, Action
Viva Pinata: Party Animals
Project Gotham Racing 4
GripShift

Halo 3
Blue Dragon
Project Sylpheed
Tenchu Z
Shadowrun
Forza Motorsport 2
Crackdown
Fuzion Frenzy 2

Second full year on ps3:
LittleBigPlanet
Resistance 2
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift
SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Confrontation
SingStar Abba
SingStar: Vol. 3
NBA 09: The Inside

MLB 08: The Show
SingStar
Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds
BUZZ! Quiz TV
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
SingStar: Vol. 2
SIREN: Blood Curse
Afrika

Second full year on wii:
Animal Crossing: City Folk
Wii Music

Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Kart Wii
Wii Fit
Endless Ocean
Mario Super Sluggers

As you can clearly see nintendo only released 7 first party games on the wii this year where as sony released 15 and microsoft in its equvilant year released 13, so saying nintendo have to release more first party games then the 360/ps3 to make up for the lack of third party games and that's why so few games came out for the wii in Q4 is totally wrong when they released fewer games in the first part of the year as well.
 

diss

Banned
so what is the possibility that valkyria chronicles could be ported to 360? i'd love to play it. that's one precious sale right there!
 
icecream said:
Wasn't the original JRPG argument the assumption that all JRPG fans are loyal to the Sony brand and will follow the system and support its original games?

Can we now all admit the genre just isn't strong as it used to be in the US and realize the choice of platform doesn't matter anymore?

IMO, it's ALL about marketing for JRPGs in the US.

Look at LO. Sales were pretty darn strong, but it also got a big marketing push.

By all accounts VC is a good game, on the system with all the JRPG owners starved for some love, and it sells like crap. Very little marketing for that one.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
onipex said:
I can never agree with statements like this because there was not a flood of action rpgs after Zelda sold well, or a flood of platformers after Mario. Third parties went with the "it sells because of Wii Sports" theory and opened those flood gates.

The game media pushed that theory even harder and wrote off any first party core sells as the " it's sells because it's a Nintendo game" theory. Just like RE4 sold because it was a RE game . Matt over at IGN still harps about Carnival Games outselling Metroid even though Mario Party has done it for years on the GameCube. If Red Steel got good reviews and sold well it would have gotten the " it sold because it was a launch title" theory stuck to it. In fact I saw that in a few articles.

I agree with you that things could have also turned out that way... but that would be because of nintendo's stigmas from previous generations... most of these are being slowly debunked.. the problem is that new ones arose...
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
doicare said:
Well actually no, with launches aligned this is what the state of first party games looks like (bolded games being Q4 games):

Second full year on 360:
Mass Effect
Scene It? Lights, Camera, Action
Viva Pinata: Party Animals
Project Gotham Racing 4
GripShift

Halo 3
Blue Dragon
Project Sylpheed
Tenchu Z
Shadowrun
Forza Motorsport 2
Crackdown
Fuzion Frenzy 2

Second full year on ps3:
LittleBigPlanet
Resistance 2
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift
SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs Confrontation
SingStar Abba
SingStar: Vol. 3
NBA 09: The Inside

MLB 08: The Show
SingStar
Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds
BUZZ! Quiz TV
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
SingStar: Vol. 2
SIREN: Blood Curse
Afrika

Second full year on wii:
Animal Crossing: City Folk
Wii Music

Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Kart Wii
Wii Fit
Endless Ocean
Mario Super Sluggers

As you can clearly see nintendo only released 7 first party games on the wii this year where as sony released 15 and microsoft in its equvilant year released 13, so saying nintendo have to release more first party games then the 360/ps3 to make up for the lack of third party games and that's why so few games came out for the wii in Q4 is totally wrong when they released fewer games in the first part of the year as well.

wow.. interesting

shows how bad nintendo's fall is...

it also shows that MS and sony release just as many casual games as nintendo...

Nintendo is just more successful....

interesting...
 

Pachael

Member
Great thread, will read again. If we're talking about certain people who predicted correctly, I don't think they're any more correct than all the investor 'analysts' who had no idea what to expect from the 'GFC'. Survivorship bias and/or CYA.
 
BishopLamont said:
2e4gdig.jpg

Fnd the tape Pikmins, LOL.
 

doicare

Member
amtentori said:
wow.. interesting

shows how bad nintendo's fall is...

it also shows that MS and sony release just as many casual games as nintendo...

Nintendo is just more successful....

interesting...

*rolls eyes* No, it shows that nintendo not only need to fix there 3rd party situtation but they also need to release more 1st party games each year for the wii.
 
You don't need to be a business analyst to realise that Nintendo's plan from here is only develop as many high quality, high expenditure games as it takes to maintain their reputation for making those good games. No more, no less. There is no Nintendo Renaissance coming, in fact, its here, this is what it looks like.
 
doicare said:
*rolls eyes* No, it shows that nintendo not only need to fix there 3rd party situtation but they also need to release more 1st party games each year for the wii.
Why do they need to when their old games are still selling fine?
 

ducere

Banned
nintendo's old games sell to douchbag middle aged men who couldn't tell you what good graphics are if their lives depended on it.
 
I guess PS3 owners don't like music games.

Did Guitar Hero: On Tour come out in November? I knew that game wouldn't do as well as the first one now people have actually played the thing.
 

TJ Spyke

Member
It came out in October, to mediocre sales. The game sold a combined 534K copies with the Wii version being the highest at 183K.

ducere, hope you enjoyed your brief time at GAF. :lol
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
VOOK said:
I just vomited at Rock Band on Wii at 13...

Now can someone explain me why an inferior port of a game that has a sequel on another console is selling better than both, the original and the sequel in the other console??

Also can someone explain me why the sequel to that game was released on another console and not on the Wii??

Finally can someone explain me why in the world EA is whining about sales on the Wii considering the two questions above and the sales quoted??
 

TJ Spyke

Member
manueldelalas said:
Also can someone explain me why the sequel to that game was released on another console and not on the Wii??

The Wii and PlayStation 2 versions of Rock Band 2 get released on December 18.
 
BishopLamont said:
Why do they need to when their old games are still selling fine?

Don't you get it? If a company is on a runaway success because they realised that they need to abandon their core audience, the best thing for them to do just as the money begins to pile up is to turn back to that core audience. GOD.
 
Wow, Harmonix and EA really dropped the ball with Rock Band Wii.

If you want an explanation of why they are blaming the Wii for thier losses but not thier own, it's on full display right there.

I like how they belittled the Wii like crazy to boot back when Rock Band was only announced for the PS3/360. Wii should have been your main SKU, it now seems!
 

jercruz

Member
2.04 million... Wow.

And to this that during the Cube era there was a point where production had to be temporarily halted to clear existing stock. Now they can't make enough of them.

I hope that would interest some 3rd parties to put some serious development for Wii.

Of course, companies that want Nintendo to just go away will never develop for it even if the Wii sells a quadrillion Wiis a month.
 

ducere

Banned
Little Big Planet is quite possibly one of the shittiest games ever. Of course, it is still better than any crap nintendo has ever put out.
 
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