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Official Islamic Thread

AmMortal

Banned
As many of us have noticed, every so often days a thread pops up of how "jihadists" or Extreme Islam and how degrading Islam is to women.

What is an obligation on us Muslims is that we make clear to people, what Islam is.

Please direct any questions you may have, I will do everything in my power to answer them in the most open ands sensible way possible.

I understand if its not allowed to make threads propagating a certain religion, however please understand that with a lot of misunderstanding occuring to Islam, I just want to make everything easier to understand for the people who would be kind enough to ask.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HG9dMKiDzC4 Watch that video for fast clarification on Jihad etc.

I made a list of things you should be familiarised with :

"Islam is just another copy!"

Firstly ,please understand that Islam is what used to be the early Judaism of Moses ( Moses never called his way "judaism" rather a submission) and the Nazaratism of Jesus the true monotheistic way, before certain and proven alterations of Paul and others had taken place.

Muhammad is prophecised in the old testament:

The Lord said to me [Moses]: ‘What they say is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to My words that the Prophet speaks in My Name, I will Myself call him to account.’ (Deuteronomy, 18.17-9)

"brothers referes to the early Qurayshi's some of whom were born of Abraham through Ishmeal) ( much like Isreali's were born of Isaac)

Notice the " In My name", every Surah in the Quran starts with:

In The Name of Allah Most Gracious,Most Merciful

So God restored it once again through the prophet born of Abraham through Ismail( (Ishmeal which means God heard).

Allah (Arabic: الله‎) is the standard Arabic word for "God".While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews in reference to "God".

Muhammad is the only religious figure that can be proven to have existed, as because of his writings to kings,his belongings and his grave being present to this very day.
The name Muhammad literally means "Praiseworthy" and occurs four times in the Qur'an.
One in every five persons on this earth firmly believes that the Prophet Muhammad is the last Messenger of God. He was a Muslim and there are more than 1.3 billion(recorded) such Muslims today.

He was named the number one most Influencial man by numerous non-Muslims above Isaac, newston, Einstein and even Jesus for being a:

1.Philosopher
2.Orator,
3.Apostle,
4.Legislator,
5.Warrior,
6.Conqueror of ideas,
7.Restorer of rational dogmas,of a religion without images;
8.A Father
9. A Husband
10.The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad.

-- (Paris 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276- 277)

No images should be made of him ever, Muhammad (saw) condemned it, this shows his true intentions as only being remembered for what he did and not how he looked like or worshipped.
However, if you want a description of how he looked like here it is:

Muhammad (pbuh) was of a height a little above the average. He was of sturdy build with long muscular limbs and tapering fingers. The hair of his head was long and thick with some waves in them. His forehead was large and prominent, his eyelashes were long and thick, his nose was sloping, his mouth was somewhat large and his teeth were well set. His cheeks were spare and he had a pleasant smile. His eyes were large and black with a touch of brown. His beard was thick and at the time of his death, he had seventeen grey hairs in it.

His gait was firm and he walked so fast that others found it difficult to keep pace with him. His face was genial but at times, when he was deep in thought, there there were long periods of silence, yet he always kept himself busy with something. He did not speak unnecessarily and what he said was always to the point and without any padding. At times he would make his meaning clear by slowly repeating what he had said. His laugh was mostly a smile. He kept his feelings under firm control - when annoyed, he would turn aside or keep silent, when pleased he would lower his eyes.


Many false representations and lies have been spread around him, but this is very normal as it was the same in his day and age, he was beaten and humiliated on numerous ocassions.

Another one I can't believe people don't understand yet :

MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN JESUS!

I've heard a lot of those kind of people who have been brought up on the concept of muslims not believing in jesus,while we are the only religion besides christianity that does. He is mentioned 25 times in the Qur'an while Muhammad him self is only 5 times.


What is Jihad!?

Calm down, first of all Jihad literally means to strive for something, i.e work hard and to your best of ability, so everything muslims do is Jihad, whether it is helping the elderly or collecting Charity, or fighting your inner temptations or defending the helpless and weak.
Funny, how Muhammad(saw) is known as the Prophet of Mercy, when he was so kind even to his enemies.

Secondly, non of the things that are going on now can in any way shape or form be associated with Islam. Extremists have always been around and will always, the Prophet(saw) himself said that these are a people with no kindness in their hearts, they thrive on wars and bloodshed, he said that the if he was with us today, he would eliminate them all. Suicide is a no go in Islam, there is only damnation after that, no go going back!

What about women?!

Before Islam the early people were cruel and unjust to women, they treated them like objects of mere desire, and often some of them went through hidious and unjust situations. To the point that they buried their duaghters alive.

Islam came to stop all of that, Allah gave the women honour once more and the rights that they so truthfully deserve. The veil is a beautiful thing, it ensures that the woman should be noticed for her personality and kindness and not for any physical traits.

A veil is a covering like this:
muslim_girl.jpg

Looks a lot like Virgin mary doesn't it?
That is because Mary is an example for muslim girls.

Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls. How they are enslaved to the male desire and are somewhat forced to wear make-up 24/7 or that they have to wear tight clothes even in cold days. To event the extremes of physical alterations to show that they are "free".

In Islam whatever a man can do, a women can do to. Don't think that any of the things that are going on right now in some of the so called "muslim" countries, where they treat women as secondary citizens is Islamic at all. It is the opposite, they do exactly what Islam came to stop. Ignorant culture has always been the enemy of Islam.


The truth is that there are so many MisConceptions going on lately, and I like many others just want to set it straight.

Any questions ?..Drop them off here :)

^__^
 

Gig

One man's junk is another man's treasure
B]What about women?![/B]

Before Islam the early people were cruel and unjust to women, they treated them like objects of mere desire, and often some of them went through hidious and unjust situations. To the point that they buried their duaghters alive.

Islam came to stop all of that, Allah gave the women honour once more and the rights that they so truthfully deserve. The veil is a beautiful thing, it ensures that the woman should be noticed for her personality and kindness and not for any physical traits.

A veil is a covering like this:
muslim_girl.jpg

Looks a lot like Virgin mary doesn't it?
That is because Mary is an example for muslim girls.

Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls. How they are enslaved to the male desire and are somewhat forced to wear make-up 24/7 or that they have to wear tight clothes even in cold days. To event the extremes of physical alterations to show that they are "free".

In Islam whatever a man can do, a women can do to. Don't think that any of the things that are going on right now in some of the so called "muslim" countries, where they treat women as secondary citizens is Islamic at all. It is the opposite, they do exactly what Islam came to stop. Ignorant culture has always been the enemy of Islam.


The truth is that there are so many MisConceptions going on lately, and I like many others just want to set it straight.

Any questions ?..Drop them off here :)
Hey buddy, have you ever been to America? Women can wear what ever the hell they want, nor are they slaves to male desire.
 
Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls. How they are enslaved to the male desire and are somewhat forced to wear make-up 24/7 or that they have to wear tight clothes even in cold days. To event the extremes of physical alterations to show that they are "free".

and I guess western girls are laughing at muslim girls. how they have to wear scarfs in summers.
 
Gig said:
Hey buddy, have you ever been to America? Women can wear what ever the hell they want, nor are they slaves to male desire.
:lol Warrior, you shouldn't have bothered with this at all. I know you put some hard work into it but it's jut not going to fly on Gaf. Something about tolerance and accepting others along with being free to do whatever you want.

You'll never get any real discussion except for ass hat comments and a lot of insults and dare i say ignorant comments from the usual suspects. I always laugh when they talk about religion and people who are religious with a broad brush and then add "Religion is ignorant" to the end of it.

Absolutely pathetic and ironic. Round and round we go...
 

avaya

Member
Warrior300 said:
What about women?!

Before Islam the early people were cruel and unjust to women, they treated them like objects of mere desire, and often some of them went through hidious and unjust situations. To the point that they buried their duaghters alive.

Islam came to stop all of that, Allah gave the women honour once more and the rights that they so truthfully deserve. The veil is a beautiful thing, it ensures that the woman should be noticed for her personality and kindness and not for any physical traits.

A veil is a covering like this:
muslim_girl.jpg

Looks a lot like Virgin mary doesn't it?
That is because Mary is an example for muslim girls.

Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls. How they are enslaved to the male desire and are somewhat forced to wear make-up 24/7 or that they have to wear tight clothes even in cold days. To event the extremes of physical alterations to show that they are "free".

In Islam whatever a man can do, a women can do to. Don't think that any of the things that are going on right now in some of the so called "muslim" countries, where they treat women as secondary citizens is Islamic at all. It is the opposite, they do exactly what Islam came to stop. Ignorant culture has always been the enemy of Islam.

You're kidding right?
 
Warrior300 said:
What is an obligation on us Muslims is that we make clear to people, what Islam is.

You don't know what Islam is and you don't decide what Islam is. Don't come here with the audacity of any kind of authority on the subject. Islam offers a broad spectrum of possibilities of how to interpret it and each follower picks his own version out of the book. The result is that Islam is defined through the actions of its different followers and none of you is more right or wrong than the other.
Your attempt of a thread i superfluous.
 

AmMortal

Banned
James Power said:
You don't know what Islam is and you don't decide what Islam is. Don't come here with the audacity of any kind of authority on the subject. Islam offers a broad spectrum of possibilities of how to interpret it and each follower picks his own version out of the book. The result is that Islam is defined through the actions of its different followers and none of you is more right or wrong than the other.
Your attempt of a thread i superfluous.

I never said I have any kind of authority, don't attack me personally.
Nope, I'm not deciding what it is,Islam should be judged on the Qur'an not on how the people act, you haven't read any of the things I have said.

Do we judge christianity as a religion of pedophilia if a few priests resort to it?

avaya said:
You're kidding right?

No, I'm serious

What didn't you get?

Culture should not be confused with Islam
 

Gig

One man's junk is another man's treasure
CrushDance said:
:lol Warrior, you shouldn't have bothered with this at all. I know you put some hard work into it but it's jut not going to fly on Gaf. Something about tolerance and accepting others along with being free to do whatever you want.

You'll never get any real discussion except for ass hat comments and a lot of insults and dare i say ignorant comments from the usual suspects. I always laugh when they talk about religion and people who are religious with a broad brush and then add "Religion is ignorant" to the end of it.

Absolutely pathetic and ironic. Round and round we go...

Crushdance I'm going to go and guess you never been to the U.S. or if you were it wasn't for very long. This may come as a shock to you, but not all women here care what men think of them or what they wear.
 

AmMortal

Banned
Gig said:
Hey buddy, have you ever been to America? Women can wear what ever the hell they want, nor are they slaves to male desire.

:lol :lol :lol America's next top model disagrees
P.S
Funny how you see the western world as America.
 

AmMortal

Banned
avaya said:
The whole Islam is better for womean spiel?

It is a laughable statement. I can't believe you are serious.

Okay, so how am I wrong?

What does Islam Introduce that is outright degrading?
 

Ydahs

Member
avaya said:
The whole Islam is better for womean spiel?

It is a laughable statement. I can't believe you are serious.
Islam changed how woman were treated. Did you not read what warrior300 posted?

Woman were hardly considered human in Arabia before the time of Islam. Islam bought woman their rights and made them equal to men.
 
Gig said:
Crushdance I'm going to go and guess you never been to the U.S. or if you were it wasn't for very long. This may come as a shock to you, but not all women here care what men think of them or what they wear.
I live in Canada. I know what it's like, and no I wasn't agreeing with him on that point. But our society is overly sexualized and that cannot be denied whatsoever. You've read all the headlines and seen the stories on the news about young girls chasing after some silly ghosts to try and make themselves "stand out" or be like those they see in the media.

Yes people here have more room for choice as to what they can do, but not many go against the expectations society has set. Our society is way sexualized and girls are expected to behave and dress in a certain way.
avaya said:
The whole Islam is better for women spiel?

It is a laughable statement. I can't believe you are serious.
At the rise of Islam it did bring a lot of rights and respect for women.
 

Witchfinder General

punched Wheelchair Mike
I'm agnostic and as such I don't harbor any real animosity towards any specific faith.

Having said that, the one thing about Islam and its followers that bothers me is the notion that Islam itself is beyond criticism and that depicting Mohamed in a negative light is an unforgivable act.

Quite frankly, if I want to say "Mohamed can go fuck himself" then there's no way anyone can stop me. Equally, I have the right to criticise any deity/faith as I see fit and as such you have the right to criticise me in any matter you feel.
 

Gig

One man's junk is another man's treasure
Warrior300 said:
:lol :lol :lol

Funny how you see the western world as America.

You didn't answer my question. Like Crushdance I'm going to guess you have never been to the U.S. or your exposure to it was very limited. I'm sure where ever your from the local media doesn't hold the U.S. in the highest regard, nor does it properly show the typical American lifestyle and most likely shows gross, misleading representation of the ordinary American. But if you were ignored all that bullshit and actually come to America, you would realize America isn't anywhere close to those unaccurate descriptions you implyed.
 
Warrior300 said:
I never said I have any kind of authority, don't attack me personally.
Nope, I'm not deciding what it is,Islam should be judged on the Qur'an not on how the people act, you haven't read any of the things I have said.

Do we judge christianity as a religion of pedophilia if a few priests resort to it?

You can't judge the book because it's full of contradictions and kept open for different interpretations depending on what the reader needs. That's why you judge the people. Those who claim to act in the name of the book very much do so because they are guaranteed to find support of their claims in the book - just as those opposed to these views will find support of THEIR claims in the same book, that's because it's a schizophrenic book - and therefore count as acting in under the cultural idea of Islam. All at the same time.

There are no open for interpretation passages about sexual priest/altar boy relationships in the bible, so no, it's an institutional issue not directly related to christian religion.
 
Warrior300 said:
The veil is a beautiful thing, it ensures that the woman should be noticed for her personality and kindness and not for any physical traits.

Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls. How they are enslaved to the male desire and are somewhat forced to wear make-up 24/7 or that they have to wear tight clothes even in cold days.
I'm not just bashing Islam because many religions do this, including mine :lol , but coming up with excuses to hush up sexuality, extinguish it, or to badmouth it is mega retarded. No one has the right to arbitrarily declare what someone has to wear or look like. I mean wtf. Especially when it comes to women. And "enslaved to male desire"? You can blame society for complicating relationships, but there's nothing wrong with women being attracted to men or vice versa or homosexual relationships. That's how life should be. If you're not attracted to anyone, do you have a pulse? I refuse to believe a loving God would create beautiful women and then require that they be locked away or dressed in a way that covered up what their natural look is. There's enough shit in this life without some weird rules sucking out the enjoyment of life for no reason.
 
Gig said:
You didn't answer my question. Like Crushdance I'm going to guess you have never been to the U.S. or your exposure to it was very limited. I'm sure where ever your from the local media doesn't hold the U.S. in the highest regard, nor does it properly show the typical American lifestyle and most likely shows gross, misleading representation of the ordinary American. But if you were ignored all that bullshit and actually come to America, you would realize America isn't anywhere close to those unaccurate descriptions you implyed.
Are you even reading?
 

saelz8

Member
Warrior300 said:
Culture should not be confused with Islam
This is always vague, as they feed and influence each other. Interpretations of Islam in Turkey for the most part, are radically different than those in Saudi Arabia, even divorced from soley cultural conciderations. Your theology in Iran is going to be different than your theology in Malaysia, due to different sectual traditions and hadith collections. So, asking someone from Iran a question about free-will is going to give you a different response than the same question asked in Maylasia. The case is the same in Christianity.

Which is what I believe James is getting at, who are you to make a Official Islamic Thread? There is no Official Islam. It's a religious franchise, with many different sub-iterations. There is one base theme, but apart from that, it's very non-homogenous.

A one console ummah is just as much a myth as peace on earth. It's never been, and never will be. This is all multiplatform, baby.
 
CrushDance said:
At the rise of Islam it did bring a lot of rights and respect for women.

If we're talking about the tribes in the sands of the middle east, maybe. The mighty Greeks long before them already had better intersex relations than the culture of Islam has today. So these supposed achievements have absolutely no universal value as it's a only of local relevance.
 

AmMortal

Banned
Witchfinder General said:
I'm agnostic and as such I don't harbor any real animosity towards any specific faith.

Having said that, the one thing about Islam and its followers that bothers me is the notion that Islam itself is beyond criticism and that depicting Mohamed in a negative light is an unforgivable act.

Quite frankly, if I want to say ******then there's no way anyone can stop me. Equally, I have the right to criticise any deity/faith as I see fit and as such you have the right to criticise me in any matter you feel.

OKay, firstly thanks for your sincere question.

We as muslims are not supposed to go all physical when someone says or does something to try to humiliate The Prophet or God or the Qur'an. Islam gives you the right to say and believe anything you want

When Prophet Muhammad(saw) himself was beaten and stoned he was bleeding so much that his sandals were clogged in blood.
Sometimes had things like Camel intestines thrown on top of him while he was praying at the ka'ba.

He said that it was a mistake on his fault that they didn’t accept him and that maybe one day, their offspring will become Muslims. Today, I believe that there reside a large amount of Muslims in that city.


The Prophet Muhammad (saw) was known for his kindness and humble character.


Gig said:
I also must know why.
ChryZ said:

The reason is to avoid any Idol worship and only Allah is Eternal, the prophets are only and example of what you can become, they can't help you when you are dead. Only Allah can.
 
James Power said:
If we're talking about the tribes in the sands of the middle east, maybe. The mighty Greeks long before them already had better intersex relations than the culture of Islam has today. So these supposed achievements have absolutely no universal value as it's a only of local relevance.
Um what? Take a look around man. Cultures are all different, one town can vary vastly from another. And what I was alluding to was this:

In those days before Islam, women were treated like slaves or property. Their personal consent concerning anything related to their well-being was considered unimportant, to such a degree that they were never even treated as a party to a marriage contract.

Women were used for one purpose, and then discarded. They had no independence, could own no property and were not allowed to inherit. In times of war, women were treated as part of the prize. Simply put, their condition was unspeakable.

In addition, the birth of a daughter in a family was not an occasion for rejoicing, but was regarded with humiliation. The practice of killing female children was uncontrolled.

With the advent of Islam came the verse from the Quran condemning those who practiced female infanticide:

"And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision."
(An-Nahl 16:58-59)


And as part of a description of various events on the Day of Judgment, the Quran mentions:

"And when the female (infant) buried alive (as the pagan Arabs used to do)
shall be questioned. For what sin she was killed? (At-Takwir 81:8-9)


Outside Arabia conditions for women were no better. In India, Egypt, and all European countries in the Dark Ages, women were treated worse than slaves. They were not regarded as human beings but as sort of a sub-species between humans and animals.

"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)

The most basic right of a woman in Islam is the knowledge and recognition that she never has to ask or demand or fight for her rights which are guaranteed to her by Allah (SWT) Himself.

Read some more here
Gig said:
Are you? You're talking about girls chasing after ghosts, what the hell are you talking?
You said that girls are free in our society to do whatever they want. I said YES they are, but society has a slanted view of what that should be. Come on man, you seriously trying to say that we don't expect girls to be a certain way?

Women were treated like crap in Europe as well and allover the world. Not because of religion but because of peoples cultures and pre-set ideas. Remidn me when women were even allowed to vote in NA again?
 

Ydahs

Member
ChryZ said:
Because people will start praying to and worshiping the pictures and the idols of the prophet, like what Christians do with idols of Jesus.

Muslims believe that Muhammed was only a messenger and no prayer and worship should be directed towards him or any other prophet. It should all be directed towards god.

I hope you understand. I'm not too good at explaining religious issues.
 

Ginko

Member
lol @ you have to visit America to know it. Even though I live here, I can fairly say that America is all over the place with its movies, shows, music etc. This is American media that represents the American culture, you don't have to visit the country to know what it's all about.
 

AmMortal

Banned
James Power said:
If we're talking about the tribes in the sands of the middle east, maybe. The mighty Greeks long before them already had better intersex relations than the culture of Islam has today. So these supposed achievements have absolutely no universal value as it's a only of local relevance.

There you go again, ISLAM IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH CULTURE!.
Read it again, thoroughly.
 

avaya

Member
Warrior300 said:
Okay, so how am I wrong?

What does Islam Introduce that is outright degrading?

"Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls"

Sure.

I'm sure being forced to wear a veil is freedom. I'm sure being punished for disobeying that is freedom. Your rationalisation of the veil is incredible. You effectively say don't generalise but then reply with "America's Top Model". Whose being crass now? The fact you make sweeping stereotypes of western culture and then sit back and making amazing claims about Islam will rub people the wrong way. I’m numb to it now because I've heard the stuff over and over and have debated it many times with my Muslim friends.

Women in the west have a MUCH better time of it than those in the Islamic world. To even contest that is amazing.

You said don't confuse culture with Islam. A lot of Muhammad's teachings are based on the nascent Arabian culture of the time. You can't escape that reality. Islam's interpretation really does vary from country to country. The strictest adherer's I know of are Arab/Pakistani. I have Iranian, Kazakh, Turkish and Lebanese friends who openly drink alcohol and eat non-Halal and the girls dress like western women. Yet they still claim to be Muslims. No one is 100% right.

It's like what Mr Power stated so abrasively, the view of a religion is shaped by the actions of its followers. The majority of them.
 

Gig

One man's junk is another man's treasure
CrushDance said:
You said that girls are free in our society to do whatever they want. I said YES they are, but society has a slanted view of what that should be. Come on man, you seriously trying to say that we don't expect girls to be a certain way?

Girls maybe,but I didn't say girls, I said women. Most women I know don't give a shit what men think of them and don't need appoval from men to justify their lives.
 
Gig said:
Girls maybe,but I didn't say girls, I said women. Most women I know don't give a shit what men think of them and don't need appoval from men to justify their lives.
...You're really picking at a dead carcass here man. Girls-Women...you know what we were talking about. I'm agreeing with you about what you said earlier, but at the same time reminding you that it's not as simple as "Bad guys", "Good guys" or black and white like some try to paint each other.

Everyones got their problems.

And I'm so glad that the point of 'PEOPLE SHAPE IDEAS' not the other way around has been agreed upon in this thread. I consider myself agnostic/weak catholic but I also know that I pick and choose what to do or not based on my emotions at the time and experience.

It's the same reason as why people become criminals. You can raise someone with all the best guidance and tutors but if they want to go their own way there's nothing you can do about it.

I don't have a problem with religion being criticized as I've said a million times in these threads, but I do have a problem with blanket statements and unnecessary insults.
 

Ydahs

Member
avaya said:
"Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls"

I'm sure being forced to wear a veil is freedom. I'm sure being punished for disobeying that is freedom. Your rationalisation of the veil is incredible. You effectively say don't generalise but then reply with "America's Top Model". Whose being crass now? The fact you make sweeping stereotypes of western culture and then sit back and making amazing claims about Islam will rub people the wrong way.
....


I have Iranian, Kazakh, Turkish and Lebanese friends who openly drink alcohol and eat non-Halal and the girls dress like western women. Yet they still claim to be Muslims. No one is 100% right.

I just found this from Google:
"According to the Quran, the reason why Muslim women should wear an outer garment when going out of their homes is that they may be recognised as "Believing" women and differentiated from streetwalkers for whom sexual harassment is an occupational hazard. The purpose of this verse was not to confine women to their homes, but to make it safe for them to go about their daily business without attracting unsavoury attention."

Woman have the choice to put on the veil. They should not be forced or punished. They should first understand WHY they're wearing the hijab and agree to it.

To the second bolded part... Well then obviously they're only Muslims by name, as they don't follow the simple teachings of the prophet. In this case, they're 100% wrong.
 

AmMortal

Banned
avaya said:
"Girls in the Islamic world, laugh at the western girls"

Sure.

I'm sure being forced to wear a veil is freedom. I'm sure being punished for disobeying that is freedom. Your rationalisation of the veil is incredible. You effectively say don't generalise but then reply with "America's Top Model". Whose being crass now? The fact you make sweeping stereotypes of western culture and then sit back and making amazing claims about Islam will rub people the wrong way. I’m numb to it now because I've heard the stuff over and over and have debated it many times with my Muslim friends.

Women in the west have a MUCH better time of it than those in the Islamic world. To even contest that is amazing.

You said don't confuse culture with Islam. A lot of Muhammad's teachings are based on the nascent Arabian culture of the time. You can't escape that reality. Islam's interpretation really does vary from country to country. The strictest adherer's I know of are Arab/Pakistani. I have Iranian, Kazakh, Turkish and Lebanese friends who openly drink alcohol and eat non-Halal and the girls dress like western women. Yet they still claim to be Muslims. No one is 100% right.

It's like what Mr Power stated so abrasively, the view of a religion is shaped by the actions of its followers. The majority of them.

Okay, It is no question that women in today's so called "muslim" countries are being treated very unjustly. I was saying that Islam is the opposite of what you are seeing in So called "Islamic" countries, this is due to their culture, nothing in Islam is like that.

Yes, I do agree that some Iranian, Turkish and Lebanese are more willing to lay aside their religion to integrate, then some. I myself had friends from both Iran and Turky, Islam does not allow ALCOHOL in any circumstances. It is because of the weakness of the human heart and mind that does this to you.

So many are going by muslim these days that perhaps only a handful can be seen as muslims.

On the concept ot hijab, it is perfectly up to the girl herself to decide to wear it or lay it aside for later, its no one elses business then between her and Allah( although its frowned upon). The veil is an advantage to her whether she sees it now or later.

It is also the mark of Believing women.
 
Warrior300 said:
There you go again, ISLAM IS NOT AND SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH CULTURE!.

That's impossible. The people who wrote this book in it wrote down their cultural views and habits. Islam is nothing BUT culture. And as diverse a culture is and as much as it spreads and evolves it changes. Now your book offers an excellent basis for the broad spectrum of the islamic cultures, as through its very open phrasing it allows for the most diverse interpretation of its content. Adjusted to the needs and wishes of every (new) islamic tribe and it's newfound customs.

You can see this even today with the Muslim migrating to the west, carrying their books, ready to be interpreted in new and adjusted ways for their new cultural surroundings.
 
Great thread!

muslim 4 life :D

few things:
- Women have the choice of covering their hair, it's not a must.
- There are alot of different Muslims, ranging from Liberal (like myself) till extreme.
 
James Power said:
That's impossible. The people who wrote this book in it wrote down their cultural views and habits. Islam is nothing BUT culture. And as diverse a culture is and as much as it spreads and evolves it changes. Now your book offers an excellent basis for the broad spectrum of the islamic cultures, as through its very open phrasing it allows for the most diverse interpretation of its content. Adjusted to the needs and wishes of every (new) islamic tribe and it's newfound customs.

You can see this even today with the Muslim migrating to the west, carrying their books, ready to be interpreted in new and adjusted ways for their new cultural surroundings.
Exactly. I just wish these discussions could be more civil like this in future threads...but by morning this'll be a hell hole.
 

AmMortal

Banned
James Power said:
That's impossible. The people who wrote this book in it wrote down their cultural views and habits. Islam is nothing BUT culture. And as diverse a culture is and as much as it spreads and evolves it changes. Now your book offers an excellent basis for the broad spectrum of the islamic cultures, as through its very open phrasing it allows for the most diverse interpretation of its content. Adjusted to the needs and wishes of every (new) islamic tribe and it's newfound customs.

You can see this even today with the Muslim migrating to the west, carrying their books, ready to be interpreted in new and adjusted ways for their new cultural surroundings.

EDIT:

Sorry, I agree to some extent.
 

Ginko

Member
James Power said:
That's impossible. The people who wrote this book in it wrote down their cultural views and habits. Islam is nothing BUT culture. And as diverse a culture is and as much as it spreads and evolves it changes. Now your book offers an excellent basis for the broad spectrum of the islamic cultures, as through its very open phrasing it allows for the most diverse interpretation of its content. Adjusted to the needs and wishes of every (new) islamic tribe and it's newfound customs.

You can see this even today with the Muslim migrating to the west, carrying their books, ready to be interpreted in new and adjusted ways for their new cultural surroundings.
By "this book" you mean the Quran?
 
Warrior300 said:
I can be a muslim westerner if I want to. I can play video games, watch TV play some sports or eat takout (halal lol). Why do you feel the need to classify islam as a culture?

You are making forced assumptions, there is non sense in debating with people like you.
I think you misunderstood what he was saying Warrior. He DID say that adaptation takes place.
 

Gig

One man's junk is another man's treasure
Warrior300 said:
Okay, It is no question that women in today's so called "muslim" countries are being treated very unjustly. I was saying that Islam is the opposite of what you are seeing in So called "Islamic" countries, this is due to their culture, nothing in Islam is like that.

Yes, I do agree that some Iranian, Turkish and Lebanese are more willing to lay aside their religion to integrate, then some. I myself had friends from both Iran and Turky, Islam does not allow ALCOHOL in any circumstances. It is because of the weakness of the human heart and mind that does this to you.

So many are going by muslim these days that perhaps only a handful can be seen as muslims.

On the concept ot hijab, it is perfectly up to the girl herself to decide to wear it or lay it aside for later, its no one elses business then between her and Allah( although its frowned upon). The veil is an advantage to her whether she sees it now or later.

It is also the mark of Believing women.

This Allah guy doesn't sound so great, I mean no alcohol, next your going to tell me you can't JO. Also why can't muslims eat pork?
 
Gig said:
This Allah guy doesn't sound so great, I mean no alcohol, next your going to tell me you can't JO. Also why can't muslims eat pork?

Pigs are the filthiest animals. In History pigs carried alot of diseases. (Now it's a little different, but the no pig rule still stands)
 
i'm a muslim too, but in a christian country.
but i hate other muslims, i hate these people 'cause they show everytime "ohhh look, i'm with allah...lalalala"
 

AmMortal

Banned
Gig said:
This Allah guy doesn't sound so great, I mean no alcohol, next your going to tell me you can't JO. Also why can't muslims eat pork?

Fristly, please just say Allah or don't say it at all.

Secondly, Pork is proven to be not so healthy:

The following lists show germs or parasites that are found
in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these
diseases are contagious while some are proven fatal.

PARASITIC DISEASES

a) TRICHINELLA SPIRATIS ( Trichina worms )
It is the most dangerous parasite to man ( Rheumatism and
muscular pain). The infected persons shown no symptoms, recover
very slowly some die, some reduced to permanent invalids. No one
is immune from this disease and there is no cure.

b) TAENIA SOLIUM ( Pork tape worm )
The worm causes malnourishment of the person leading
to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression melancholia and
digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enter
the blood stream then settle down in one or more of the vital
organs of the body, for example: brain, liver, lungs or spinal
cord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to the
system around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea,
digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).

c) ROUND WORMS
Examples: Ascaris, which may lead to digestive
disturbances, appendicitis, obstructive jaundice.

d) HOOK WORMS
Examples:Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to
anemia, oedema, heart failure or retarded
growth ( mental and physical), tuberculosis,
diarrhea and typhoid.

e) SCHITOSOMA JAPONICUM
Bleeding, anemia and other syndromes. If ova
are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis
and death may occur.

f) PARAGOMINES WESTERMAINI
Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs
( endenve haemoptysis)

g) PACIOLEPSIS BUSKI
Digestive disturbances leading to persistent
diarrhea; generalized oedema.

h) CLONORCHIS SINENSIS
chlonorchiasis-obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.

i) METASTRONGYLUS APRI
Causes bronchitis, abscess of the lungs.

j) GIGANTHORINCHUS GIGAS
Cause anemia and digestive disorders.

k) BALATITIDIUM COLI
Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.

BACTERIAL DISEASES

1. Tuberculosis
2. Fusiformis necrofurus: causing foot-rot which is very
difficult to heal.
3. Salmonella Cholera suis: causing cholera
4. Paratyphoid
5. Bruceellosis: Acute, sub acute and chronic. It may lead
to permanent disabilities.
6. Swine Erysipelas: causing Erypelas in man.
 

MidiSurf

Banned
Quick question is alcohol forbidden in Qur'an ? Or does it just say that it's not good for you, cos' of human's weak mind and all that.
 
Warrior300 said:
Fristly, please just say Allah or don't say it at all.

Secondly, Pork is proven to be not so healthy:

The following lists show germs or parasites that are found
in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these
diseases are contagious while some are proven fatal.

PARASITIC DISEASES

a) TRICHINELLA SPIRATIS ( Trichina worms )
It is the most dangerous parasite to man ( Rheumatism and
muscular pain). The infected persons shown no symptoms, recover
very slowly some die, some reduced to permanent invalids. No one
is immune from this disease and there is no cure.

b) TAENIA SOLIUM ( Pork tape worm )
The worm causes malnourishment of the person leading
to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression melancholia and
digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enter
the blood stream then settle down in one or more of the vital
organs of the body, for example: brain, liver, lungs or spinal
cord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to the
system around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea,
digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).

c) ROUND WORMS
Examples: Ascaris, which may lead to digestive
disturbances, appendicitis, obstructive jaundice.

d) HOOK WORMS
Examples:Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to
anemia, oedema, heart failure or retarded
growth ( mental and physical), tuberculosis,
diarrhea and typhoid.

e) SCHITOSOMA JAPONICUM
Bleeding, anemia and other syndromes. If ova
are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis
and death may occur.

f) PARAGOMINES WESTERMAINI
Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs
( endenve haemoptysis)

g) PACIOLEPSIS BUSKI
Digestive disturbances leading to persistent
diarrhea; generalized oedema.

h) CLONORCHIS SINENSIS
chlonorchiasis-obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.

i) METASTRONGYLUS APRI
Causes bronchitis, abscess of the lungs.

j) GIGANTHORINCHUS GIGAS
Cause anemia and digestive disorders.

k) BALATITIDIUM COLI
Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.

BACTERIAL DISEASES

1. Tuberculosis
2. Fusiformis necrofurus: causing foot-rot which is very
difficult to heal.
3. Salmonella Cholera suis: causing cholera
4. Paratyphoid
5. Bruceellosis: Acute, sub acute and chronic. It may lead
to permanent disabilities.
6. Swine Erysipelas: causing Erypelas in man.

Bacon is worth it. Trust me.
 

AmMortal

Banned
solid2snake said:
i'm a muslim too, but in a christian country.
but i hate other muslims, i hate these people 'cause they show everytime "ohhh look, i'm with allah...lalalala"

Only Allah decides who is with him, it is true that these days many people are saying that they are muslims and clearly do the opposite.
 
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