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Official Islamic Thread


"I'm looking for OS's lecture that he attended, but I found an interesting post on the first page... I'll keep reading...

I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law."
 

Zapages

Member
"I'm looking for OS's lecture that he attended, but I found an interesting post on the first page... I'll keep reading...

I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law."

I said that. lol...

I could post an update on my research if you are interested in that thread. If you decide to bump it up after reading it through. :)

Also I am working on my 2nd manuscript to hopefully get published... The first one is already published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. :)
 
"I'm looking for OS's lecture that he attended, but I found an interesting post on the first page... I'll keep reading...

I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law."
I was about to write out a post about the several misunderstandings and mischaracterizations about evolution (and really, the scientific method in general) outlined in this post, but then I saw that quotation marks were added later. Sneaky.
 

Zapages

Member
I was about to write out a post about the misunderstandings and mischaracterizations about evolution outlined in this post, but then I saw that quotation marks were added later. Sneaky.

Lets talk scientifically... People are actually searching a looking up redefining what is fact in the theory of evolution all the time. What I mean is the major aspect of theory of evolution might be true but details of it are not 100% correct. Its like, we have huge puzzle but small aspects that contribute to whole thing being true are missing.

You can apply this sample principle on genus to test it out. You will then get the same results. Initially what Darwin did - seems phenotypically characterising is sound... But when you take a look at it a genetic level you release not everything is clear cut. So you have to modify or do experiment give validity to your results.

For example, people used to think Junk DNA did nothing, but now it has a function that is being investigated.

Furthermore, people are investigating the conservation of introns across many species and they are finding good results. In my own research, we are finding introns to be conserved across a group of species. This should not be occurring at all because in eukaryotic organisms the introns are spliced out when forming a protein. Why is this the case? Is the database where the genes are located wrong and their annotation is wrong? Could be? Is the intron really is being conserved across the species and ith as specia characteristic to it.
 
I said that. lol...

I'm still looking through that thread but you brought up the topic I was questioning at the bottom of the previous page. You said

" The words in the Holy Quran are literal words of God that is true. No Muslim questions that".


This was the question so you don't miss it.

"So I was watching a video today and in it a Muslim man made the claim that the Quran is evidence of Allah because it couldn't be written by man. This seems to be one of the claims used by many Muslims that God is real, but all I'm seeing is a big logical fallacy in this reasoning. Can someone delve into this line of reasoning further?"
 
So I was watching a video today and in it a Muslim man made the claim that the Quran is evidence of Allah because it couldn't be written by man. This seems to be one of the claims used by many Muslims that God is real, but all I'm seeing is a big logical fallacy in this reasoning. Can someone delve into this line of reasoning further?

Also OS, is that Evolution and Islam talk available somewhere?

The talk isn't up yet, I've been bugging them to post it for a while but the MSA's video was corrupted so we are editing and uploading the back up. Sorry for the delay!

The claim you are referring to is about the Qur'an as a miracle. It was offered as a proof, a test, to the people of the time of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). Basically there was a challenge to write something even remotely like it. The poetry of the Qur'an was regarded to be so sublime that many conversions occurred just from hearing it, their conclusion being that it was not something that could have come from a human. I believe even a few contemporary conversions (Mohammed Asad springs to mind) were similarly inspired.

It isn't a proof for God per se.
 
The talk isn't up yet, I've been bugging them to post it for a while but the MSA's video was corrupted so we are editing and uploading the back up. Sorry for the delay!

The claim you are referring to is about the Qur'an as a miracle. It was offered as a proof, a test, to the people of the time of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). Basically there was a challenge to write something even remotely like it. The poetry of the Qur'an was regarded to be so sublime that many conversions occurred just from hearing it, their conclusion being that it was not something that could have come from a human. I believe even a few contemporary conversions (Mohammed Asad springs to mind) were similarly inspired.

It isn't a proof for God per se.

No worries, just post in here and/or shoot me a pm when it's up. ;)

I've seen/read a few apologists and even members of GAF claim that it's evidence of God's existence, I'm just wondering how it could be? I'm guessing the 'miraculous' nature of the text doesn't cross language boundaries because all the English versions (admittedly snippets of text) aren't exactly awe inspiring to me. I'm not being facetious either.
 
No worries, just post in here and/or shoot me a pm when it's up. ;)

I've seen/read a few apologists and even members of GAF claim that it's evidence of God's existence, I'm just wondering how it could be? I'm guessing the 'miraculous' nature of the text doesn't cross language boundaries because all the English versions (admittedly snippets of text) aren't exactly awe inspiring to me. I'm not being facetious either.

It was counted as a miracle for those who understood the classical language with the level of familiarity that defined a culture like that of the Arabs. However today, I personally don't find it a particularly persuasive 'proof' per se.

I am not of the opinion that the Qur'an is about proof. It certainly doesn't concern itself with proof as much as does clarification. It isn't about proving God, it is about defining what God is and is not.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
No worries, just post in here and/or shoot me a pm when it's up. ;)

I've seen/read a few apologists and even members of GAF claim that it's evidence of God's existence, I'm just wondering how it could be? I'm guessing the 'miraculous' nature of the text doesn't cross language boundaries because all the English versions (admittedly snippets of text) aren't exactly awe inspiring to me. I'm not being facetious either.

Answer: What is Deaf and Blind!
 

Ashes

Banned
No worries, just post in here and/or shoot me a pm when it's up. ;)

I've seen/read a few apologists and even members of GAF claim that it's evidence of God's existence, I'm just wondering how it could be? I'm guessing the 'miraculous' nature of the text doesn't cross language boundaries because all the English versions (admittedly snippets of text) aren't exactly awe inspiring to me. I'm not being facetious either.

iirc it isn't merely aesthetically pleasing, the argument proposed is in the structure of the prose.
 

Ashes

Banned
Haha that's the guy I saw give this argument. It's absolutely terrible, these aren't very good reasons for claiming the Quran was/is proof of divine intervention. I'm out so I can't go through all the points, but do you subscribe to the idea the the Quran is evidence of God's intervention through the Prophet?

I had a feeling. ;)
 

Zapages

Member

I am not talking about those... Those are expected to be seen and conserved to some extent. Their functionality is totally different than what I am looking at.

What I am looking at is something more than a 1000 base pair intron that is being conserved across multiple species. Putatively speaking these are expressed in differentiated pluripotent stem cells. I can't say anything more without disclosing my research and I am being vauge on purpose here. That is something unheard of to even my mentors, and to all of my university's faculty. I have tested it again and again... I get the same results and it has been verified by mentors. So it is something that is very strange to say the least.
 
If the intron is conserved across species then it most likely has some important function. My point is, this is nothing uncommon. The fairly recent (and also controversial) paper from the ENCODE consortium showed its members being able to assign biochemical functions to over 80% of the genome. As I'm sure you know, genes only comprise about 3% of our genome. Another ~5% is also highly conserved.

Finding conservation in an intron isn't unexpected at all. What you need to prove is that that particular intron is more highly conserved than all the other introns in those species. You also need to determine its function. It might for instance be a misannotated gene.
 

Zapages

Member
If the intron is conserved across species then it most likely has some important function. My point is, this is nothing uncommon. The fairly recent (and also controversial) paper from the ENCODE consortium showed its members being able to assign biochemical functions to over 80% of the genome. As I'm sure you know, genes only comprise about 3% of our genome. Another ~5% is also highly conserved.

Finding conservation in an intron isn't unexpected at all. What you need to prove is that that particular intron is more highly conserved than all the other introns in those species. You also need to determine its function. It might for instance be a misannotated gene.

I am working with the type data that you stated. These data sets are partially annotated and some of it is not annotated... Most of my research is based on this type of data and then analyzing it. I found it in an annotated specie and one species that has not been annotated. Both of them belong to same sub-genus. I am working on annotating specific species for sequences that my mentor and I are interested in and they serve a specific function in the body of that particular organism..

I have done everything you have said....

I have translated the intron and I found no good protein match for it. Literally there is nothing there. As for being conserved, it is a perfect match and statistical algorithms that generate likelihood of being perfect match is 100%. Funny thing is that this location matches up perfectly with another gene in the annotated specie that my mentor and I have putatively stated. (published)

Also I am working with Next Generation Sequence data for whole genome and transcriptome.

It could be a misannotation, that is my hypothetical reasoning right now... But then you have non coding exons regions. I am not talking about the 5' UTR or the 3 'UTR. These regions are within exons and yet they do not code for the CDS. Also introns separate them.

Its a very interesting project that I am very fortunate to work on.

PS: The intron is a lot larger than 1000 kilobases in length. I was just giving you an idea. :) I won't disclose it due to the sensitivity of my research until its published.
 
What do you mean with perfect match? You would of course not have 100% identity on DNA level across distant species. Do you mean best reciprocal hit in a BLAST search or something?

Edit: If other posters think we are too far off-topic, please raise your voice and we'll take the conversation to PM instead.
 

Zapages

Member
What do you mean with perfect match? You would of course not have 100% identity on DNA level across distant species. Do you mean best reciprocal hit in a BLAST search or something?

Edit: If other posters think we are too far off-topic, please raise your voice and we'll take the conversation to PM instead.
I do mean, its 100% identical at the DNA level, because the sequence that my mentor and I are working with are genomic sequences. Aside from this, the e value I get are 0 through blast with almost 100% query coverage.
 
That should raise a red flag. I suggest you go through your method before you submit the paper to a journal. You're not necessarily wrong, but I imagine that even the error rate from the sequencing platform would result in a non-identical hit.
 

Zapages

Member
That should raise a red flag. I suggest you go through your method before you submit the paper to a journal. You're not necessarily wrong, but I imagine that even the error rate from the sequencing platform would result in a non-identical hit.
My mentor (has a PhD in Bioinformatics) and I have done it quiet of few times already... Same result. Also what we are doing has a simple procedure and we have checked it through its NGS data, which then generates the same results and again.

Its fun to discover something weird and interesting in terms of genomic and evolutionary biology.
 
So I'm hoping for some clarification in the versus that talk about killing of enemies etc. I've been trying to read in context the best that I can and this is how I've been translating it so far..

I've been reading the "Sahih International", "Pickthall", "Muhsin Khan" and "Yusuf Ali" translations btw.

2:190 - "And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors."

To me this is saying fight those who fight you, but do not go past the limits. My first question is, what is considered fighting here? Is it actual physical confrontation, or simply disbelievers talking down on or against Islam? My second question is, what are these "limits"? I'm confused by that because in then next verse, it specifically states to "kill" these people who fight against you. To me killing would be past the "limit", so that's why I'm confused by what the "limits" are.

2:191 - "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

My rough translation of this starts out by saying to kill these enemies wherever you come across them, and to "run them out" wherever they've done the same to you. My first question is what does expel refer to? I'm assuming it's along the lines of people who say you cannot worship "Allah" in a certain areas, countries, etc.? Or is this referring to more of a physical "expel"?

"Fitnah" is worse than killing. I'm assuming this is just saying "tribulation" is worse than killing? The next part of the verse I'm again assuming, is referring to a special circumstance when they come to "Makkah" to fight you, then you have permission to kill them. My question for that part again goes back to the context of "fight", is this physical, or referring to people who are against Islam, or both?

2:192 - And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:193 - Fight them until there is no fitnah and worship is for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against Az-Zalimun

Essentially what I'm getting from these verses, is "fight" them until (cease) they worship Allah. Then I kind of get confused by the last part of that verse and what Az-Zalimun is referring to?

Anyways, I'm still going through it, but this is the gist of what I've understood so far. My head hurts from trying to understand all these different translations and wordings. Thanks to whoever helps me understand deeper into what these are saying.
 
The mosque is too small, so people pray in the streets outside it

TMy3IUO.jpg
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?
 

Ashes

Banned
I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?

Depends on the family. I know a friend who is atheist, but his family are all fairly apart anyhow, so him being atheist is only a point of interest on the odd occasion that they meet.

Families can break up over all kinds of things though, so depending on the society you keep, it may go just as you'd expect.
 
I hope nobody takes offense to this. But life must be really tough as a islamic believer in the west.

I spent 3 weeks under a wrongful arrest, and half my ward in toronto was islamic,(that's like 15/30) and that's when I learned the most about rituals, carpet, and the people of the faith. But the prejudice was huge.

Allah praise you brothers.
 
I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?

Not any close friends/family members.

But I know of one guy who I used to know that became an atheist and then came out the closet. (Is it politically correct to say that ?). He quickly came an outcast by the youth in the ghettoes but I actually don't know how his family reacted. Haven't seen him since, been over a year.
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?

You should just come out and tell your friends and family. It's much better than jumping through all these hoops and pretending you're somebody else.

I'm sure it will be a liberating experience. You have to expect a bad reaction but I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the reaction of some.

Even if it goes badly sometimes people just need time. Once it's over you can stop acting and doing weird things which is what truly bothers you no?
 
I just saw Live of Pi movie and thought it was wonderful, however:

How could Pi say he was a muslim if he followed three religions (islam, hinduism, christianity) at the same time? Isn't that a serious sin?
 

vareon

Member
I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?

Not openly, but I know some friends who just stopped praying altogether, Friday included. They still fast though, because fasting is more of a tradition here than a religious activity.
 
I have several Muslim friends who've dropped the religious part altogether and now only go through some of the cultural traditions e.g. only eat halal meat and have Muslim weddings. They seem to do fine, but then again they live far away from their families.
 
I have a question. How do you Muslim GAFers feel when you see a bunch of us atheists going to town on some poor Christian?

im not a big fan of any member of any religion getting dogpiled for having faith, unless they said/did some really horrible stuff. i think people should talk to each other with respect. im not a fan of condescending people at all and many athiests on the internet come off immature and unnecessarily hostile. theres no need for that.

I wanted to ask some GAF Muslims - how many of you have close friends/family members who have left the religion, and how have they been treated?

i have a cousin who is an athiest but he hasnt really made it public. his parents kinda figured it out but they just ignore it and never confront him about it. in my experience, the younger family members dont really care but the older more conservative members will probably become very angry.

honestly, outside of not drinking alcohol and eating pork, most muslim families i know arent really all that religious.
 

berg ark

Member
im not a big fan of any member of any religion getting dogpiled for having faith, unless they said/did some really horrible stuff. i think people should talk to each other with respect. im not a fan of condescending people at all and many athiests on the internet come off immature and unnecessarily hostile. theres no need for that.

Do you believe in freedom of speech or are you for some kind of blasphemy laws that restict criticizing and/or ridiculing religion and any faith for that matter?
 
Do you believe in freedom of speech or are you for some kind of blasphemy laws that restict criticizing and/or ridiculing religion and any faith for that matter?

of course i do. i think people should be allowed to say whatever they want no matter how horrible or messed up it is. i just personally dont like people acting like jerks irrespective of the topic and ill avoid them if i think theyre disgusting enough.
 

berg ark

Member
of course i do. i think people should be allowed to say whatever they want no matter how horrible or messed up it is. i just personally dont like people acting like jerks irrespective of the topic and ill avoid them if i think theyre disgusting enough.

Fair enough. I share that view. I think many people mistake criticizing a religion with taking it like a personal insult on their faith and it actually being an personal insult or just being obnoxious.
 

flash ban

Banned
Lets talk scientifically... People are actually searching a looking up redefining what is fact in the theory of evolution all the time. What I mean is the major aspect of theory of evolution might be true but details of it are not 100% correct. Its like, we have huge puzzle but small aspects that contribute to whole thing being true are missing.

You can apply this sample principle on genus to test it out. You will then get the same results. Initially what Darwin did - seems phenotypically characterising is sound... But when you take a look at it a genetic level you release not everything is clear cut. So you have to modify or do experiment give validity to your results.

For example, people used to think Junk DNA did nothing, but now it has a function that is being investigated.

Furthermore, people are investigating the conservation of introns across many species and they are finding good results. In my own research, we are finding introns to be conserved across a group of species. This should not be occurring at all because in eukaryotic organisms the introns are spliced out when forming a protein. Why is this the case? Is the database where the genes are located wrong and their annotation is wrong? Could be? Is the intron really is being conserved across the species and ith as specia characteristic to it.

spliced out might mean it functions within the nucleus, like other non-protein-coding rna by regulating gene expression patterns or as a ribozyme or some other function.
 
Fair enough. I share that view. I think many people mistake criticizing a religion with taking it like a personal insult on their faith and it actually being an personal insult or just being obnoxious.

criticism is perfectly fine but theres a difference between discourse and automatically labeling someone who is religious to be stupid, ignorant, savage, etc. thats just obnoxious.
 

flash ban

Banned
criticism is perfectly fine but theres a difference between discourse and automatically labeling someone who is religious to be stupid, ignorant, savage, etc. thats just obnoxious.

depends on the belief. Somethings are so ridiculous, that it begs the question.
 

flash ban

Banned
but..who cares? like i said, unless the person is doing/saying some horrible stuff why is it any of your business if they choose to belief in something you think is ridiculous?

depends, there are plenty of people who've been labelled mentally ill, despite being non violent, and locked up.
 

Ashes

Banned
Health officials in Saudi Arabia are battling to halt the spread of a deadly Sars-like virus before millions of pilgrims arrive for the annual Haj. The World Health Organisation has warned that the disease poses "a threat to the entire world". The haj, which takes place in October, therefore poses a nightmare for experts battling to contain the virus, where up to 4m Muslims will converge on Saudi Arabia.

The Times.

+
Mosque burns down in London in suspicious circumstances

A mosque burned down in Britain in a suspected arson attack on Wednesday, intensifying fears of a backlash against Muslims after a British soldier was killed on a London street last month.

reuters + lots of places..
 

F#A#Oo

Banned

Looks like an anti-islam website...

Interview is filled with a lot of fear mongering...also it reinforces the lie that there are no-go zones in Europe...and she complains about muslims praying in the street...without explaining why this is happening in the first place making it seems like muslims are just randomly gathering to block traffic and cause a nuisance. lol
 
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