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[d[-_-]b]

Didn't they talk about this sort of stuff before getting married? And no is my answer to your other question. It's a naive expectation and one that will likely disappoint you in the end.

Learned this the hard way lol .

If I ever marry a non Muslim, I would do so accepting her choice of religion. Expecting someone to eventually convert after marriage will only lead to complications down the road.

I tried that route too, didn't go well either lol...

 

[Pollux]

Learned this the hard way lol .

I tried that route too, didn't go well either lol...

If you don't mind me asking, what happened? I dated a Muslim girl in undergrad, really liked her, she dumped me when she realized there was no way she was going to convince me to convert...a month later I met the girl I'm currently with and we've been together for over three years now. Both Catholic. I never thought how much religion actually factors into a relationship until I was dumped lol. Oh well, I think it happened for a reason and it led me to my current GF, planning on proposing sometime in the Fall if everything goes according to plan...knock on wood.

 

[Zapages]

I just found the Make Me a Muslim series on youtube...thought I'd share it with you all...


Make me a Muslim Episode 1

Make me a Muslim Episode 2

Make me a Muslim Episode 3

Thank you... That is great.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Thank you... That is great.

Hehe...your welcome. I enjoyed the series when it aired...I was surprised by the gay guy...he was the one to takeaway the from from the experience.

On a more depressive note...

~~~

I met a victim today of Iranian Shi'a's who chopped off his right thumb and index finger and busted one his right knee cap, cut half his ear, they etched some Farsi writing on his stomach and back...they also raped his daughter (10 year old!!!) and wife and hospitalised them...

He has been given asylum here but not his family...so now he has to wait to see how he can get them to come here...

 

[Instigator]

I really don't know where I am spiritually anymore. I was pretty much faithless for a longtime until I met my fiancee.

She got me back into Islam. I read everything I could and went to as many seminars and meetings as I could.. Sociological perspectives, Political perspectives etc... I just devoured information like mad. Helped alot when it came to debates, allowing for a conversation to go beyond verse throwing. Having regained my faith, my religious family actually grew closer to me. But the "germs" in me from my faithless period remained in the form of my opinions and ideas.

My fiancee is a hijabi. Not one of those hijabis that wear it because it's fashionable to do so in the community but because she truly believes in it. The first thing she said to me when we began our relationship was that God comes first, then her mum and me last. At the time I felt alright with it, don't expect to be number 1 everywhere.

Throughout our relationship, my ideas and opinions always remained controversial. She worried that any kids we'd have would grow up faithless if I had my way and would end up doing the same things I did. I was involved in hard drugs during my late teens and was the personification of the angry internet atheist. I trolled like mad and grew extremely notorious for it in my hometown. Ended up couch-surfing for a couple months because my family wanted nothing to do with me.

She fell in love with me during my periods of sobriety and helped me clean-up. Stuck with me through the depression afterwards and made sure that I came out of it as healthy as I could.

Fast-forward a couple years and the "lazy" attitude I have towards our faith has ruined our relationship and we're taking a break from each other, to think about what we want from life.

I am not the most public of Muslims. I prefer to pray privately and I like to study my faith in seclusion as well. I don't go about making a big show of my faith. People in our local community have interpreted that as a "lack of faith" and you can imagine the gossip that's has spawned from it. The things people say are so virulent that my fiancee's faith in me has been shaken.

My faith itself is nearly gone. I feel this emptiness inside me and I really don't know how to fix it. I don't like being without faith but I can't force myself to believe in something that I have started to vehemently oppose. I cannot stand the sight of a hijab, a congregation or the mosque anymore. I've alienated nearly all my Muslim friends and most of my family refuses to talk to me anymore.

I really don't know what to do anymore. I've started up on the drugs again and I've added alcohol to the mix. Sobriety is far and apart now and I think I've committed every major sin there is. 99% of the time, I end up regaining consciousness in someone else's house.

I think I've screwed up really badly.

First of all, what are those controversial opinions? I'm not religious, I can take it.

And second, what is this emptiness inside of you? Can you be more precise? Why does it have to be Islam and nothing else?What are drugs doing to you that you want to keep taking them (aside from addiction)? What are you running away from?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I really don't know where I am spiritually anymore. I was pretty much faithless for a longtime until I met my fiancee.

She got me back into Islam. I read everything I could and went to as many seminars and meetings as I could.. Sociological perspectives, Political perspectives etc... I just devoured information like mad. Helped alot when it came to debates, allowing for a conversation to go beyond verse throwing. Having regained my faith, my religious family actually grew closer to me. But the "germs" in me from my faithless period remained in the form of my opinions and ideas.

My fiancee is a hijabi. Not one of those hijabis that wear it because it's fashionable to do so in the community but because she truly believes in it. The first thing she said to me when we began our relationship was that God comes first, then her mum and me last. At the time I felt alright with it, don't expect to be number 1 everywhere.

Throughout our relationship, my ideas and opinions always remained controversial. She worried that any kids we'd have would grow up faithless if I had my way and would end up doing the same things I did. I was involved in hard drugs during my late teens and was the personification of the angry internet atheist. I trolled like mad and grew extremely notorious for it in my hometown. Ended up couch-surfing for a couple months because my family wanted nothing to do with me.

She fell in love with me during my periods of sobriety and helped me clean-up. Stuck with me through the depression afterwards and made sure that I came out of it as healthy as I could.

Fast-forward a couple years and the "lazy" attitude I have towards our faith has ruined our relationship and we're taking a break from each other, to think about what we want from life.

I am not the most public of Muslims. I prefer to pray privately and I like to study my faith in seclusion as well. I don't go about making a big show of my faith. People in our local community have interpreted that as a "lack of faith" and you can imagine the gossip that's has spawned from it. The things people say are so virulent that my fiancee's faith in me has been shaken.

My faith itself is nearly gone. I feel this emptiness inside me and I really don't know how to fix it. I don't like being without faith but I can't force myself to believe in something that I have started to vehemently oppose. I cannot stand the sight of a hijab, a congregation or the mosque anymore. I've alienated nearly all my Muslim friends and most of my family refuses to talk to me anymore.

I really don't know what to do anymore. I've started up on the drugs again and I've added alcohol to the mix. Sobriety is far and apart now and I think I've committed every major sin there is. 99% of the time, I end up regaining consciousness in someone else's house.

I think I've screwed up really badly.

Asalaamu Alaykum Wa Rahmetullahi Wa Barekatahu

Bismillah iRahmen iRaheem

Don't despair brother, as Allah says in the Qur'an: “Tell them (O Muhammad ): ‘O My slaves who have wronged their souls, do not despair of Allah’s mercy, for Allah will forgive all the sins. He is indeed very Forgiving, very Compassionate, Turn to Him then, and obey Him (in all your affairs).’” (Al-Zumar:53,54). Forgiveness is forthcoming for those who seek it in the best of ways.

It is never too late, as the Beloved of God (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) said; 'Allah accepts the servant’s repentance until they take their last breath.' (Tirmidhi).

It seems indeed that you have had wrong done to you, both by others, and by yourself. Sincere repentance is the surest way to move beyond that which afflicts you. No sin is insurmountable, remember that, but sincere repentance only comes with an associated leaving behind of sin. It cannot be expected that ones repentance will be excepted when one maintains the same thing for which repentance is sought. Forgiveness, both that of God, and those whom you feel you have harmed (including yourself), is one of the greatest things that you can do in order to free yourself from the things that are causing you harm.

If you find this an almost insurmountable obstacle, it can be good to seek out those who make you remember God. There are religious people who are judgemental and full of slander. Such people may be inside far worse than you think yourself. Find those who are gentle but stringent in their faith, they are people with whom, through association with, you will elevate yourself.

It can be easy to feel overwhelmed, especially when one who was a pillar of support for you is no longer around. There are people out there though who can take that place. Surrounding yourself with people of the religion who will support you is one of the greatest steps you can take towards moving away from harmful behaviour.

Make dua that you are brought from your affliction, and repent for the wrongs you feel you have done yourself and others. Trust in God's word, 'verily with hardship comes ease'.

As to drugs, I do not know the steps you have taken to manage your addictions, or if indeed you consider such things as addictions. Either way, seeking out people familiar with the treatment of such things is important. Repairing your life can only be done in a state of sobriety and that is not only a Muslim position. The effect that drugs can have on your relationships with your family, with your friends and most importantly with your fiancee, can be, and seems to have been, devastating.

If you recognise this factor as a cause for the kind of problems you describe, you are also able to see some problems that are not a cause for blame upon yourself.

You are not responsible for people's judgements of you. This religion is not for them, your worship is not for them. This religion, your worship, is for God alone. If you are 'obnoxious' to people as you describe, you are not being obnoxious to some random person, you are being obnoxious to God. Every single relationship you have, with those who love you, and with those who despise you, is, at the end of the day, a relationship with the Most High.

Even your relationship with whatever drugs consume you is the same. Take solace and strength from that, but also be fearful, for certain things are disliked for a reason. Despising the things of the religion will not change your state for the better. Neither will drugs, or even working things out with your fiancee. The greatest thing that will change your state for the better, is to seek out a contentment with God, where the bad and the good effect you not at all. Find that, and any of the problems you describe, drugs, girls, whatever, will fade away.

I can say that because I have experienced some measure of the same thing.

You are in my dua brother, keep me in yours insha'Allah. And God knows best.

Walaykum Salaam Wa Rahmetullah

- Will

 

[OttomanScribe]

I also don't care about Sharia or its system, this is not a discussion about superstition. It is irrelevant to any secular society what your religion thinks or perceives only what it does. This is about the standards of discrimination and what such beliefs are qualified as.

What are you talking about, how is that aspect of the Sha'riah relevant outside of it as a holistic guidance relating to law and society? In a secular society, where marriage law is determined by a secular judiciary you cannot make an argument about the religious guidance within the Sha'riah being bigoted within a society in which its marriage law is not enacted... when the marriage law itself exists with the assumption that the society itself is governed according to the Sha'riah.

It is like placing a duck on land and complaining that it doesn't float. The assertion and the situation are confused.

You have been completely avoiding the issue, the only time you address the doctrinal link was a few posts back when you tried to justify Islam dictating this bigotry as a measure of protecting women's rights which is nonsense.

This is your defense? You believe in being bigoted because you're paternalistically protecting women? The facts don't support your position and this makes such prejudices intolerable.

What facts specifically? You haven't referred to any in relation to this assertion. You say 'the facts don't support your position'... then don't post any facts. Paternalistically protecting women? No, the Sha'riah takes into account the fact that pretty much until the 20th century, women in most nations, including Europe, didn't have a shadow of the rights given to them in the Sha'riah, and even today they still barely come close.

One of the great conclusions of feminism was about the devaluation of the domestic labour that women still do something like 80% of in the West. Imam Shafi'i's legal school set out that women should be paid for all domestic labour, hundreds and hundreds of years before 'feminism' was a word.

Mormons who campaigned against gay marriage? Bigots. Christians who love the sinner but hate the sin? Bigots. People who believe Muslim women are prohibited from marrying non-muslims? Bigots.

Donkeys? Not bigots. Babies? Not bigots. People who believe that that Muslims in general should avoid placing themselves outside of the protection of the law? Not bigots.

Listing random people who you think are bigots does not support your point, other than to come off as some weird show of atheist cred.

If you dislike this term, stop your prejudiced practices. It is that simple.

It really isn't. You might wish that our discussion spirals down to a simplistic level, but we are talking about complex questions of law and society. No measure of your attempt to make it into some ad hominum point will change that. I have pointed out the function and form of the prohibition, yet you refuse to engage with anything outside your repetition basically of the same mantra, ad nauseam. This mantra simplified comes down to: any system that does not treat all people exactly the same is automatically bigoted/prejudicial.

Now moving beyond your problematic definition of bigotry, that in itself should ring some alarm bells for you. If I have a bag of rice, it is not bigotry to give more of it to someone who hasn't eaten in three days than a man walking out of a Chinese restaurant with a bunch of special fried rice with honey chicken.

You also never did answer my question. Since my mother married a Christian, is she a devout Muslim? After all, I find it only fitting that the party who brought this qualification up be made to explain himself.

I don't know your mother's heart. It is not me who decides who is, and who is not devout. She certainly contravened a part of the Sha'riah in her decision, however whether or not that places her in or out of being called devout, is, I guess beyond my ken.

Considering that the result of that contravention appears so antipathetic towards her way of life, there seems to be a wisdom in it.

 

[noobie]

I just thought that this is a very interesting and a very different opinion

Good to hear unbiasely.

Story of Youth Minister - Joshua Evans

 

[Meadows]

One of the great conclusions of feminism was about the devaluation of the domestic labour that women still do something like 80% of in the West. Imam Shafi'i's legal school set out that women should be paid for all domestic labour, hundreds and hundreds of years before 'feminism' was a word.

This point is an interesting one.

Is it not right that we, as you say, value domestic work, but recognise that it doesn't matter whether female or male does it, and that females should have the right to go out and work for a living, even if they're female and Islamic?

 

[Ashes]

This point is an interesting one.

Is it not right that we, as you say, value domestic work, but recognise that it doesn't matter whether female or male does it, and that females should have the right to go out and work for a living, even if they're female and Islamic?

You imply that Muslim women do not have equal labour rights from the outset.

 

[Instigator]

I do dishes, laundry and take out the garbage. Where's my money?

 

[Meadows]

You imply that Muslim women do not have equal labour rights from the outset.

I'm saying that Islamic institutions should do more to get women into the non-domestic workforce while saying to men that it's okay for them to stay at home and be domestic workers.

I do dishes, laundry and take out the garbage. Where's my money?

hidden somewhere. I'll never tell

 

[Ashes]

I'm saying that Islamic institutions should do more to get women into the non-domestic workforce while saying to men that it's okay for them to stay at home and be domestic workers.

Good luck convincing them of that. We have a hard enough time over here [UK], getting men to share in the domestic help scene, let alone convince them [us and them mentality ftw] to change from a age old complementarian view point.

Though it always surprises me how culturally orientated it is though. You can just take out the word Muslim, and the situation stays relatively the same. Muslim British women, and Muslim Pakistani women for example.

That is of course, except for the places where Muslims in general are not supposed to work. glamour modelling etc.

 

[F#A#Oo]

I'm saying that Islamic institutions should do more to get women into the non-domestic workforce while saying to men that it's okay for them to stay at home and be domestic workers.

Have you ever visited a muslim majority country? Women in the work force is not much of an issue...women tend to be better educated than their male counter-parts in many cases too. There is a distinction to be made though and that is that muslim women tend not to want to join the workforce...especially once they have children.

If you were to ask a muslim woman what she would want when discussing women rights getting into work place isn't that high. That isn't to say that it isn't an issue but in the majority of muslim families the woman is looked after by the immediate family and then when the time comes to get married that responsibility gets shifted to the husband and his immediate family thereafter or in some cultures the husband moves into his wife's immediate family. Either way the muslim woman is provided for and the need for work is nullified...therefore it just becomes a struggle about ambition and wants...till the first child comes and then ambition get put on the back burner.

I have found the single most important issue for women being the want for equality in the religion...they want to be able to come and pray at the mosque freely like men and beside men in the main prayer areas and not in the back/side out of the way areas, there are women who feel women should be able to lead prayer...

 

[OttomanScribe]

This point is an interesting one.

Is it not right that we, as you say, value domestic work, but recognise that it doesn't matter whether female or male does it, and that females should have the right to go out and work for a living, even if they're female and Islamic?

Women are not forbidden to work. Indeed any money they earn cannot be accessed without permission by their husband.

As I'm sure you know, the Messenger of God's (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) first wife, the Lady Khadijah (radiAllahu anha) was not only a business woman but indeed his employer.

However it is also understood that most societies end up having specialized gender roles. Indeed even after decades of liberal feminism more than three quarters of domestic work is done by women. This, in a society without acknowledged gender specialization usually occurs on top of the need to work in paid employement.

A Muslim man should follow the Prophet's (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) example and do as much domestic work as possible. However the way of most societies, liberal feminist or not, is of some degree of gender specialization. Taking this into account, the law in question makes total sense.

 

[Mystic Theurge]

No, the Sha'riah takes into account the fact that pretty much until the 20th century, women in most nations, including Europe, didn't have a shadow of the rights given to them in the Sha'riah, and even today they still barely come close.

I'm sorry, but could you expound on this? What do you mean by most nations?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I'm sorry, but could you expound on this? What do you mean by most nations?

I think that the way in which other systems (at least those who have been manifest, rather than always confined to theory) address the oppression of women are inadequate. Liberal feminism basically uses prosperity as a counter to inequality, which is a temporary solution at best, and certainly doesn't speak to the reality of life for most women in the world.

My wife, according to my legal school, has an immense range of rights that, as far as I am aware, are not duplicated and are certainly not surpassed, anywhere else.

Upon marriage, she is given a large sum of money, stipulated by herself (the mahr, dowry) which she can only access, and exists as a guard against marriage break up. Any money she earns is her own, any work she does in the house is paid. I am obligated to provide for her sustenance. My rights upon her are in turn minimal. Of course we don't look at our relationship in terms of rights and obligations, but the legal framework of the relationship exists as a ward, in case I chose to overstep my boundaries with her.

She is able to choose either to work, in which case her money is her own, or live exclusively as a house wife, or both. Either option is a viable choice. In a liberal feminist setting, where equality and 'sameness' are viewed as the same thing, this is not generally a viable choice, beyond those who are very wealthy. It is certainly not a viable choice for those whom are not. The movement of large numbers of women into the workplace did not increase the amount of jobs, but it did double the amount of labour, halving its value.

 

[esquire]

It's not weird so much as bigoted.

The central idea is that men are the head of the households and so the children will be raised in whatever faith the men are.

Since religions are ideas whose primary purpose is to propagate itself over all else, you kind of get the picture as to why this is the case. The same goes with apostasy and the death penalty.

I agree with this. I try to be respectful to all beliefs but I find Islam in particular to be extremely backwards in many ways that other major faiths are not.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I agree with this. I try to be respectful to all beliefs but I find Islam in particular to be extremely backwards in many ways that other major faiths are not.

What specifically would you point to as being unique to Islam?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

You're the one shifting the discussion away from religious tenets.

This is not about individual choice as you seem to want to change the discussion into, it's the doctrinal basis that we're discussing here, namely the prohibition of Islamic women marrying non-muslims. I even underlined and put it in bold. The very post I responded to beginning this line of discussion is in direct reference to the doctrinal nonsense you posted justifying bigotry, so you are, on an evidential basis, the one veering the discussion away to 'choice'.

That tenet and anyone holding that tenet is a bigot. If a persons believes that as a matter of religious doctrine that Islamic women should not marry non-Muslims then they are a bigot, and yes, if a person chooses not to marry someone on the basis of that doctrine then they are bigoted. People can choose all they want based on desires but to follow a bigoted doctrine solely because it is doctrine makes that person a bigot.

If we changed the word non-Muslim to Black or Chinese, then the bigotry would be readily apparent.

You've weasel-worded 'devout' to qualify and cover for the practice of these atrocious beliefs as being a matter of true or correct faith. You introduced that qualifier and have stuck with it this far, defending bigoted actions as being those of 'devout' believers.

I'll ask you directly then, my mother married a Christian. Is she a devout Muslim? Do devout Muslim women marry non-Muslims?

If you truly believe that devotion is Islam is and should be based on such bigotry and discrimination, then people of like-minded nature only serve to undermine and potentially doom your religion. If you do not integrate into society then you can only become isolated and swept aside.

I'll also point out that your repeated attempts to quantify why and categorize my assaults on your beliefs only serve to undermine your position. I've assailed religious opinions of every stripe and seeing that this is an Islamic thread, it's on Islam and seeing that the topic at hand turned to something of personal interest, I jumped in.

The topic is not about your suspicions of me, why I am assailing your position, or your baseless accusations. If it's too much for you to stay on topic then by all means scamper away.

I have a couple of questions.

1. Are you implying there to be an equivalence between prohibition of interfaith marriages with the prohibition of interracial marriages?

2. Are you aware of the specific reasons given for why interfaith marriages are either discouraged or forbidden entirely?

 

[esquire]

What specifically would you point to as being unique to Islam?

That post was pertaining to the rules regarding marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims so, that?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

That post was pertaining to the rules regarding marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims so, that?

Are you referring to specific rules or just the idea of interfaith marriage in general?

 

[esquire]

Are you referring to specific rules or just the idea of interfaith marriage in general?

Obviously I'm referring to the specific rules in Islam. Other major faiths have their own rules regarding interfaith marriage, sure, but they are not as inflexible as the rules in Islam.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Obviously I'm referring to the specific rules in Islam. Other major faiths have their own rules regarding interfaith marriage, sure, but they are not as inflexible as the rules in Islam.

Can you provide a comparison?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Obviously I'm referring to the specific rules in Islam. Other major faiths have their own rules regarding interfaith marriage, sure, but they are not as inflexible as the rules in Islam.

Do you have some measure of support for this claim? Just thinking about Judaism, I'm pretty sure that there is a legal prohibition, one that actually makes the children of the union 'lost to Judaism'.

 

[esquire]

Do you have some measure of support for this claim? Just thinking about Judaism, I'm pretty sure that there is a legal prohibition, one that actually makes the children of the union 'lost to Judaism'.

Maybe in some of the stricter variants of Judaism that may be the case but I know several Jews (male and female) married to non-Jews (they converted or otherwise accepted the faith in other ways) and there aren't any issues regarding those unions. On the other hand I know of one couple where the man is a non-practicing Muslim and the woman is a practicing Muslim and that is a huge problem for both their families, hence why I asked the question in the first place - I wanted to know if it was just this family saying that or if it was an actual rule in Islam. Her family will not accept him under any circumstances despite the fact that they both love and care for each other. I don't know the rules of every single religion, sect and cult out there but among the major religions Islam seems overly strict especially because those rules pertaining to marriage apply more to women than they do to men.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Maybe in some of the stricter variants of Judaism that may be the case but I know several Jews (male and female) married to non-Jews (they converted or otherwise accepted the faith in other ways) and there aren't any issues regarding those unions. On the other hand I know of one couple where the man is a non-practicing Muslim and the woman is a practicing Muslim and that is a huge problem for both their families, hence why I asked the question in the first place - I wanted to know if it was just this family saying that or if it was an actual rule in Islam. Her family will not accept him under any circumstances despite the fact that they both love and care for each other. I don't know the rules of every single religion, sect and cult out there but among the major religions Islam seems overly strict especially because those rules pertaining to marriage apply more to women than they do to men.

I am confused. Could you elaborate more on your two examples?

We can throw anecdotes around all we want, it won't get us very far in coming to the foundational understandings of the orthodox forms of specific religions.

 

[esquire]

I am confused. Could you elaborate more on your two examples?

We can throw anecdotes around all we want, it won't get us very far in coming to the foundational understandings of the orthodox forms of specific religions.

What is there to elaborate on? I don't see what more there is to understand based on the replies to my question earlier in the thread. Really I was just chiming in to voice my support for the opinion calling out this type of bigotry.

 

[OttomanScribe]

What is there to elaborate on? I don't see what more there is to understand based on the replies to my question earlier in the thread. Really I was just chiming in to voice my support for the opinion calling out this type of bigotry.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...targets-jews-abducted-by-intermarriage-1.8605

Your two examples seem almost entirely unrelated to the subject at hand. The first appears as a Jewish convert to a born Jew, the second of a non-religious Muslim to a religious Muslim.

How do either relate? Or indeed say anything about the permissability of interfaith marriage in either faith? Check the Christian thread too, someone asked a similar question there.

 

[esquire]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...targets-jews-abducted-by-intermarriage-1.8605

Your two examples seem almost entirely unrelated to the subject at hand. The first appears as a Jewish convert to a born Jew, the second of a non-religious Muslim to a religious Muslim.

How do either relate? Or indeed say anything about the permissability of interfaith marriage in either faith? Check the Christian thread too, someone asked a similar question there.

Can you explain what it is exactly that you want from me?

I am confused why you are confused and your link doesn't mean anything. So what?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Can you explain what it is exactly that you want from me?

I am confused why you are confused and your link doesn't mean anything. So what?

I would like you to explain how your anecdotes relate.

Additionally, I wouldn't mind if you could support your assertion of disproportion on this issue. Clearly the Abrahamac faiths are in agreement. Indeed the Jewish position seems more extreme if anything.

 

[esquire]

I would like you to explain how your anecdotes relate.

I was the one that asked the question and you wanted to know examples from other faiths to explain my statements so I provided the ones I know seeing as the original question posed was itself based on anecdotal evidence. I don't care what you choose to believe, but Islam gets less respect from me than the other Abrahamic religions which I view as more "open" and "modern."

 

[F#A#Oo]

Maybe in some of the stricter variants of Judaism that may be the case but I know several Jews (male and female) married to non-Jews (they converted or otherwise accepted the faith in other ways) and there aren't any issues regarding those unions. On the other hand I know of one couple where the man is a non-practicing Muslim and the woman is a practicing Muslim and that is a huge problem for both their families, hence why I asked the question in the first place - I wanted to know if it was just this family saying that or if it was an actual rule in Islam. Her family will not accept him under any circumstances despite the fact that they both love and care for each other. I don't know the rules of every single religion, sect and cult out there but among the major religions Islam seems overly strict especially because those rules pertaining to marriage apply more to women than they do to men.

The Talmud prohibits interfaith marriages.

Take Sacha Baron Cohen and Isla Fisher...she had to convert Judaism in order for them to marry.

It's not a case of strict Judaism vs moderate/liberal Judaism but a case of whether you want to follow scripture or not...

 

[OttomanScribe]

I was the one that asked the question and you wanted to know examples from other faiths to explain my statements so I provided the ones I know seeing as the original question posed was itself based on anecdotal evidence. I don't care what you choose to believe, but Islam gets less respect from me than the other Abrahamic religions which I view as more "open" and "modern."

Your examples were unrelated, so you didn't really answer my request.

You are not merely asking questions, you are making assertions. If you are willing to admit that these assertions are baseless, or even if you can't be bothered replying then feel free to say so and I will not question you further.

As it is, you seem to have made up your mind. To which I ask; 'why ask in the first place?'

 

[esquire]

The Talmud prohibits non-interfaith marriages.

Take Sacha Baron Cohen and Isla Fisher...she had to convert Judaism in order for them to marry.

It's not a case of strict Judaism vs moderate/liberal Judaism but a case of whether you want to follow scripture or not...

But the point is, she was allowed to convert in order for the marriage to be recognized. Islam doesn't recognize conversion if it's a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. It does if it's a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman though.

 

[OttomanScribe]

But the point is, she was allowed to convert in order for the marriage to be recognized. Islam doesn't recognize conversion if it's a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. It does if it's a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman though.

This is entirely incorrect. It is far easier to convert to Islam than to Judaism.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I was a non-Muslim, I became Muslim, I am now married to a woman born of two Muslim parents.

 

[esquire]

Your examples were unrelated, so you didn't really answer my request.

You are not merely asking questions, you are making assertions. If you are willing to admit that these assertions are baseless, or even if you can't be bothered replying then feel free to say so and I will not question you further.

As it is, you seem to have made up your mind. To which I ask; 'why ask in the first place?'

I was curious because of the experience of my friend? People are allowed to ask questions on a public forum and you are free not to answer them if they are offending you by asking.

Your type of thinking is exactly why I can't respect Islam. Sorry.

This is entirely incorrect. It is far easier to convert to Islam than to Judaism.

The question wasn't if it was easier to convert to Islam.

I was a non-Muslim, I became Muslim, I am now married to a woman born of two Muslim parents.

Congrats? My friend wants to convert but the woman's parents won't accept.

 

[Ashes]

But the point is, she was allowed to convert in order for the marriage to be recognized. Islam doesn't recognize conversion if it's a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. It does if it's a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman though.

if they convert, then it's Muslim marrying Muslim, so what is the problem? Most Muslims can marry any other Muslim.

Perhaps it would be better for for you to backtrack to an earlier position. yes?

 

[Ashes]

Your type of thinking is exactly why I can't respect Islam. Sorry.

well then let me bow out to your compulsive judgements and see how you like it. argue your position, but stop with the asinine threats.

 

[Instigator]

I would like you to explain how your anecdotes relate.

Additionally, I wouldn't mind if you could support your assertion of disproportion on this issue. Clearly the Abrahamac faiths are in agreement. Indeed the Jewish position seems more extreme if anything.

From my POV, it's pretty clear what he meant. Judaism as it is today is more tolerant to interfaith marriages and more accomodating of converts than Islam is. Both theologically but also in practice with anecdotal evidence.

Your confusion is a bit silly. Your Haaretz link is also puzzling since it acknowledges the reality of interfaith marriages within Judaism, despite right-wing nutcases crying about it.

Come on, OS, why do you have to play games? Islam is stricker on this matter and you yourself want it to be. No need to write an essay as a reply, just say "yes".

 

[Ashes]

From my POV, it's pretty clear what he meant. Judaism as it is today is more tolerant to interfaith marriages than Islam is. Both theologically but also in practice with anecdotal evidence.

Your confusion is a bit silly. Your Haaretz link is also puzzling since it acknowledges the reality of interfaith marriages within Judaism, despite right-wing nutcases crying about it.

Come on, OS, why do you have to play games? Islam is stricker on this matter and you yourself want it to be. No need to write an essay as a reply, just say "yes".

are you comparing like for like though?

 

[esquire]

if they convert, then it's Muslim marrying Muslim, so what is the problem? Most Muslims can marry any other Muslim.

Perhaps it would be better for for you to backtrack to an earlier position. yes?

From earlier I this thread, sorry I can't quote properly b/c I'm on a tablet,

OS alluded to it earlier in that there is a very specific definition of "non-Muslim" in this context of marriage. The first requirement is that she has to be one of the People of the Book, either Jewish or Christian (not just by name but actually believe in her faith) and the second requirement is that she be chaste. I've said she in both examples because you're right that Muslim women, for various reasons, cannot marry a Jewish or Christian man irregardless. One of the main gears in this question is children, specifically how you raise those children. Interfaith marriage isn't encouraged because, as you may have guessed, there is that serious question in which faith you raise those children where each spouse will have a legitimate right to want to raise them in their beliefs. The other point is of course Judaism and many Christians do not allow interfaith marriages full stop, meaning women from those faiths wanting to marry a Muslim man will come across difficulty in trying to find the union compatible with their beliefs. As such, a Muslim woman wanting to marry a Christian or Jewish man would have to convert before such a marriage can happen.

It's a romantic concept but sadly complicated.

.....

What do you mean by 'against Islam'? In the Sha'riah, marriage with non-Muslims is generally discouraged/prohibited for both sexes.

It is prohibited for both sexes to marry polytheists, atheists etc. the only marriage with a non-Muslim that is permissible, albeit discouraged, is with a woman who is ahlul-Qitab (Jewish or Christian) and even then there is debate as to wether the modern form of either are the kind of people discussed.

Were you lying when you told me this?

well then let me bow out to your compulsive judgements and see how you like it. argue your position, but stop with the asinine threats.

You might be an idiot, no offense.

 

[Ashes]

lol. post number? cause i don't remember saying that...

Were you lying when you told me this?

well, I've never told you that because its not my position. Googled and it seems meus said that. So maybe you ought to ask him. What wonderful timing you have to be calling me an idiot.

 

[esquire]

lol. post number? cause i don't remember saying that...

Post 4636 and post 4640. Not you secifically, but those are the answers from the "experts" on here. If they told me wrong, then please correct them because I came in here to understand, not to start arguments with people.

 

[Ashes]

Post 4636 and post 4640. Not you secifically, but those are the answers from the "experts" on here. If they told me wrong, then please correct them because I came in here to understand, not to start arguments with people.

experts lol! everybody on the internet is an expert!

 

[F#A#Oo]

But the point is, she was allowed to convert in order for the marriage to be recognized. Islam doesn't recognize conversion if it's a non-Muslim man and a Muslim woman. It does if it's a Muslim man and a non-Muslim woman though.

On the surface it looks like a great deal for the male but it isn't really...not if they particularly care about the Deen and up bringing of the children. It's also limited to Christian or Jewish women.

As for women yeah...they have to marry muslims because they have to ability to give conceive...call it a safeguard to limit the spawning of non-muslims. If males could conceive we too would be prohibited interfaith marriages. The secondary aspect is that women get far greater support and rights in islamic marriage. Ottoman covered these aspects already though very adequately.

 

[crazy monkey]

Congrats? My friend wants to convert but the woman's parents won't accept.

then they are the idiots. If they are true muslim they would know how much sawab it is when some one converts lol. They should be jumping at the opportunity. They are the problem or may be your friends nature or something might have something to do with it. Islam does not even come between there. They use it as a poor excuse.

 

[Ashes]

On the surface it looks like a great deal for the male but it isn't really...not if they particularly care about the Deen and up bringing of the children. It's also limited to Christian or Jewish women.

As for women yeah...they have to marry muslims because they have to ability to give conceive...call it a safeguard to limit the spawning of non-muslims. If males could conceive we too would be prohibited interfaith marriages. The secondary aspect is that women get far greater support and rights in islamic marriage. Ottoman covered these aspects already though very adequately.

so women are limited due to their ability to give birth? I think you are utilising one of the explanations to justify the ruling...

 

[esquire]

then they are the idiots. If they are true muslim they would know how much sawab it is when some one converts lol. They should be jumping at the opportunity. They are the problem or may be your friends nature or something might have something to do with it. Islam does not even come between there. They use it as a poor excuse.

This is paraphrasing here but the phrase they used is "coming into Islam by oneself." The implication being that it isn't recognized if he does it because he wants to marry this woman, it has to be of his own free will. It's really weird to me because I never even knew Islam had those rules about marriage. The only other Muslim I am sort of close with is a lot older and married a Christian woman with no major problems - she converted. My opinion as a kafir is the woman should make her own decisions based on what she wants - what's the point of religion if it keeps you from being happy? It just seems wrong to me that the family would make the guy jump through all these hoops when he's already very accepting of her beliefs. If he wasn't, why would he be willing to convert? That's life I suppose. Not much to do other than try to understand.