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[supermackem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Fc_Cp_aA8

Looks fun, and yeah that guy playing is moving his arms alot. I can see why they dont like the controls. How bad could it really be though? 5.0 scored game is saying its borderline unplayable. I think IGN will give it an 8 and GS a 7.5 or something.

Holy god, that doesnt look good at all hours of doing that hmmm i think ill pass. And whats with the voice over sounded very lame imho.

 

[Thunderbear]

Holy god, that doesnt look good at all hours of doing that hmmm i think ill pass. And whats with the voice over sounded very lame imho.

Yeah that does look annoying... hopefully there's either sensitivity options or that guy is oversteering. At least the framerate looks steady.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Does factor 5 think that Lair is fun?

Looks like a choir trying to control that dragon with the motion shit. Graphics look nice though.

 

[Yixian]

This is exactly how I feel...but I'm going to say something that everyone is going to hate:

IGN reviews have almost 100% mirrored my own feelings towards games, and really is the only site that I trust 100%.

The only purchase I've made based off IGN reviews that was a mistake was Rayman Raving Rabbids.

IGN dedicates people to specific systems, therefore you are going to get a review from a person who is very used to the systems controls or pitfalls. This is exactly how a website should offer their reviews. I'm all for a breadth of game library when it comes to personal time, but apparently these critics are having a hard time being multi-platform reviewers.

No I agree, as far as reviews goes, IGN is the gaming equivalent of Empire Magazine IMO.



Lair is the first game I've bought in about 3 months, and low and behold the lame reviews :/ F5 better have an analog patch out day 1

 

[Thunderbear]

No I agree, as far as reviews goes, IGN is the gaming equivalent of Empire Magazine IMO.



Lair is the first game I've bought in about 3 months, and low and behold the lame reviews :/

Man I got 3 platforms (four counting the psp), and the last few months have been really crap. Ninja Gaiden Sigma kept me entertained for a little while and I liked Odin Sphere but man it's been an awful season.

Oh well, at least Bioshock is out in just over 3 weeks.

 

[kitch9]

I've had a PS3 for 3 months and I still ain't fully figured out how the waggle works.... Does the controller only sense being tilted, or does it sense when it is lifted and waved around etc??

Dumb I am....

 

[Thunderbear]

I've had a PS3 for 3 months and I still ain't fully figured out how the waggle works.... Does the controller only sense being tilted, or does it sense when it is lifted and waved around etc??

Dumb I am....

Just tilted (rotated on any axis). And I don't blame you, the motion controls were added so late to the PS3 and there's not a single game that's made good use of it.

 

[iapetus]

Just tilted (rotated on any axis).

Wrong.

 

[Thunderbear]

Wrong.

Ok.

 

[Thunderbear]

I've had a PS3 for 3 months and I still ain't fully figured out how the waggle works.... Does the controller only sense being tilted, or does it sense when it is lifted and waved around etc??

Dumb I am....

Since that other guy was content with saying wrong; "A major feature of the controller is the ability to sense both rotational orientation and translational acceleration along all three dimensional axes."

So yeah, I was mistaken.

 

[Awntawn]

I've had a PS3 for 3 months and I still ain't fully figured out how the waggle works.... Does the controller only sense being tilted, or does it sense when it is lifted and waved around etc??

Dumb I am....

I'm pretty sure it has accelerometers, so it does sense being lifted and waved. Some of the most basic uses we've seen so far such as shaking up and down or jerking it side to side would not be possible with just a tilt sensor.

Folks Soul has actually integrated it pretty well.

 

[iapetus]

Since that other guy was content with saying wrong

Well, it was an either/or question. Does it just sense tilt, or does it also sense being lifted and waved around.

If one answer's wrong, then the other one's right.

 

[womfalcs3]

I've had a PS3 for 3 months and I still ain't fully figured out how the waggle works.... Does the controller only sense being tilted, or does it sense when it is lifted and waved around etc??

Dumb I am....

It's called SIXAXIS because it has six degrees of freedom. It can be:

1.) lifted.
2.) translated sideways.
3.) translated forward and back.
4.) rotated about the axis of lift (#1).
5.) rotated about the axis of horizontal (right and left) translation.
6.) rotated about the axis described in part 3.

 

[DrXym]

I don't understand why anyone would force a game to be sixaxis only. If reviews are being dragged down several points by the controls, why not provide an alternate control scheme.

I disabled the R6 "snakecam" after realising how miserable it was to control via motion. At least R6 provides an option to use an analog controller instead.

 

[Lord Error]

I don't understand why anyone would force a game to be sixaxis only. If reviews are being dragged down several points by the controls, why not provide an alternate control scheme.

I'm guessing because that's how they want you to experience the game. It's a gutsy move, that goes against the grain, no doubt.

In fact, I was hoping that Wipeout for PS3 should just bite the bullet and do the exact same thing, complainers be damned. Build the tracks around that kind of control if necessary, but make the game feel completely new by doing so.

 

[kitch9]

It's called SIXAXIS because it has six degrees of freedom. It can be:

1.) lifted.
2.) translated sideways.
3.) translated forward and back.
4.) rotated about the axis of lift (#1).
5.) rotated about the axis of horizontal (right and left) translation.
6.) rotated about the axis described in part 3.

Thanks all..... I won't feel as much of an idiot waving my arms around now then....

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

Has there been any news of SixAxis sensitivity settings?

 

[JudgeN]

I'm pretty sure that guy was over doing it , I mean Super Rub a Dub its just a simple tilt :lol

 

[kitch9]

I don't understand why anyone would force a game to be sixaxis only. If reviews are being dragged down several points by the controls, why not provide an alternate control scheme.

I disabled the R6 "snakecam" after realising how miserable it was to control via motion. At least R6 provides an option to use an analog controller instead.

Sony must want us to learn, and get comfortable with these kinds of controls.....

Besides, up to press we've been forced to use the controller thumbsticks.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

I'm guessing because that's how they want you to experience the game. It's a gutsy move, that goes against the grain, no doubt.

In fact, I was hoping that Wipeout for PS3 should just bite the bullet and do the exact same thing, complainers be damned. Build the tracks around that kind of control if necessary, but make the game feel completely new by doing so.

Uh, I still use mostly the d-pad for Wipeout. I could see it being useful for barrel rolls, but I don't see motion control working for Wipeout at all. And I certainly don't want them to redesign tracks for the single purpose of forcing this crud on us.

 

[dionysus]

I don't understand why anyone would force a game to be sixaxis only. If reviews are being dragged down several points by the controls, why not provide an alternate control scheme.

Haven't a few of Wii reviews marked games down for similiar reasons.

 

[theBishop]

I haven't read the EGM review yet, but is it true their whole problem was with the controls and camera?

Do they say anything about the story, objectives, level design, pacing, etc?

I mean, if the controls aren't an issue for you, how is the rest of the game?

 

[Lord Error]

Uh, I still use mostly the d-pad for Wipeout. I could see it being useful for barrel rolls, but I don't see motion control working for Wipeout at all. And I certainly don't want them to redesign tracks for the single purpose of forcing this crud on us.

I understand and appreciate the traditionalism and all, but I think Wipeout is due for some major, major rework to make the game feel as new and fresh as it was back then when it was released for the first time. Do you remember how much of an impact first Wipeout had back then, how much of a breakthrough that thing was in terms of game culture (in Europe at least, I dunno how it fared in US)? Now it's just "oh, new wipeout, cool". Fine, Wipeout HD can be all traditional, but the next "real" PS3 iteration should really be something else. They should *at the very least* pay whatever they have to pay those guys who designed European Omega tracks for Wipeout Pure, to design the tracks and look for the whole game. Those were the most incredible looking tracks I've seen in any racer.

Lair, I don't expect it to be anything more than a very glorified tech demo/eye candy, and for all I know, it may be a horribly awful game to slog through - but at least it looks like something new and intriguing enough. Broken or not, it's something I want to try, just like I wanted Wii tennis back then, even though I probably won't like it, but if it had all analog stick controls, I probably wouldn't even bother with it other than using cheat to inspect every level to see the graphics.

Do they say anything about the story, objectives, level design, pacing, etc?

One of the comments was that even though the levels are massive and promise epic battles, it never really delivers on that promise. Which to me was the most damning comment about the game, really.

 

[Nerevar]

I haven't read the EGM review yet, but is it true their whole problem was with the controls and camera?

Do they say anything about the story, objectives, level design, pacing, etc?

I mean, if the controls aren't an issue for you, how is the rest of the game?

they said the gameplay sucked, not just the controls. People here are flipping out about the remarks that the controls were hard to use for long periods of time, but it sounds like EGM felt the problem is a bit more than flawed controls.

 

[Luckyman]

Sony dropping second F5 project long time ago.. no mention at all at the E3 press conference.

F5 is likely done as far as big budget games are considered.

 

[RavenFox]

1up review a Sony game and it gets low scores. Not final build and remembers the Resistance fiasco. Only the players of gaf can bring truth to this turmoil.

 

[rs7k]

1up review a Sony game and it gets low scores. Not final build and remembers the Resistance fiasco. Only the players of gaf can bring truth to this turmoil.

It's a conspiracy? Do you really believe people at Gamespot/IGN/etc are raving fanboys and would score a Sony/Nintendo/MS game lower because of it?

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Sony dropping second F5 project long time ago.. no mention at all at the E3 press conference.

F5 is likely done as far as big budget games are considered.

Oh please. Do you honestly believe that Sony didn't know what type of developer it was that it signed here? Factor 5 was signed to showcase the power and capabilities of the PS3, and that's it.

 

[Luckyman]

Oh please. Do you honestly believe that Sony didn't know what type of developer it was that it signed here? Factor 5 was signed to showcase the power and capabilities of the PS3, and that's it.

Oh please. It´s pretty obvious Lair didn't turn out like Sony wanted.

 

[tanod]

It's a conspiracy? Do you really believe people at Gamespot/IGN/etc are raving fanboys and would score a Sony/Nintendo/MS game lower because of it?

I guess I can't speak for him

Spoiler

but I'm going to anyway

but there IS a problem with reviews going out with code that isn't final IF that is the case. If so, it's the publisher's fault, anyways.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Oh please. It´s pretty obvious Lair didn't turn out like Sony wanted.

How is that obvious? It's a showcase for PS3 capabilities, and unless Sony was completely ignorant to the track record of Factor 5, that's likely all it expected out of the company.

 

[kaching]

Oh please. It´s pretty obvious Lair didn't turn out like Sony wanted.

Please elaborate.

 

[Ranger X]

Right now i'm really not convinced with movement controls in game. I feel the same with Wii games.
There is ALWAYS a delay and it's NEVER precise like analog sticks. I truly wish devellopers would always leave us the option to play with the joysticks. New controls are supposed to be there to IMPROVE the experience, not going against it.
Now i'm really wondering if i will like Lair.

 

[Lord Error]

How is that obvious? It's a showcase for PS3 capabilities, and unless Sony was completely ignorant to the track record of Factor 5, that's likely all it expected out of the company.

I'm not so sure about that, I mean Lair is a very expensive game, and it's a big question mark whether it will sell anywhere close to recoup that investment. I suppose it may sell on novelty alone even if it's a poor game, just like Getaway, but that's a huge maybe.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Right now i'm really not convinced with movement controls in game. I feel the same with Wii games.
There is ALWAYS a delay and it's NEVER precise like analog sticks. I truly wish devellopers would always leave us the option to play with the joysticks. New controls are supposed to be there to IMPROVE the experience, not going against it.
Now i'm really wondering if i will like Lair.

I think it works very well in Warhawk, but even there you are given several options; basic motion control, expert motion control (the entire craft and view moves to the motion of the controller, meaning you can fly upside down and such), and thumbstick control. The secret to success there is that it's optional. Honestly, had Warhawk forced expert motion control on me from the start, the experience would have been intimidating to the point of repelling me from playing much of it.

I'm not so sure about that, I mean Lair is a very expensive game, and it's a big question mark whether it will sell anywhere close to recoup that investment. I suppose it may sell on novelty alone even if it's a poor game, just like Getaway, but that's a huge maybe.

There is however a strong possibility that part of the investment was for research and development of tech for use by SCE studios. And if nothing else, Lair serves as a guiding light for other developers re: what is possible on this system.

 

[Mustaphadamus]

1up review a Sony game and it gets low scores. Not final build and remembers the Resistance fiasco. Only the players of gaf can bring truth to this turmoil.

what was the "resistance fiasco"

 

[pswii60]

I'll still probably pick up Lair to see the beautiful graphics and hear than fantastic soundtrack for myself.

But the use of the controller looks terrible in that youtube footage. Seriously, Sony need to slap Julian Egglebrecht around the face with a kipper once in a while because he really needs it. For some reason Julian is in his own world where he can do no wrong, Sony really should have stamped hard on him to get the controls working as they should be.

BUT I have not played it for myself, and as I said I will be picking this up regardless to form a better opinion.

 

[kaching]

Lair investment is as much startup costs for Factor 5 ramping up to next gen development, F5 has said as much themselves. Not sure how much of that Sony is responsible for bankrolling.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

I'll still probably pick up Lair to see the beautiful graphics and hear than fantastic soundtrack for myself.

But the use of the controller looks terrible in that youtube footage. Seriously, Sony need to slap Julian Egglebrecht around the face with a kipper once in a while because he really needs it. For some reason Julian is in his own world where he can do no wrong, Sony really should have stamped hard on him to get the controls working as they should be.

BUT I have not played it for myself, and as I said I will be picking this up regardless to form a better opinion.

You don't think the motion control was a Sony mandate?

 

[Core407]

You don't think the motion control was a Sony mandate?

I don't think they could have pulled off the game without motion controls personally.

 

[Vagabundo]

Right now i'm really not convinced with movement controls in game. I feel the same with Wii games.
There is ALWAYS a delay and it's NEVER precise like analog sticks. I truly wish devellopers would always leave us the option to play with the joysticks. New controls are supposed to be there to IMPROVE the experience, not going against it.
Now i'm really wondering if i will like Lair.

Excite truck worked very very well, controls made the game. No lag as far as I could sense and it is a fast game.

Motion controls can really improve a game, but I think devs have been too sloppy, they have to be really well QAed...

 

[kaching]

But the use of the controller looks terrible in that youtube footage.

People acclimating to motion controls in a game for the first time are going to tend to exaggerate the motions required. That's not going to be the best judge of how well they work.

You don't think the motion control was a Sony mandate?

It's not a mandate in Warhawk, the very first poster child for the Sixaxis.

 

[TTP]

I like how nobody complained about the control system in Lair til now. I mean. We've got hundread of previews based on game playtests at various events around the world but this complain or potential problem was hardly exposed.

I can understand it being tiresome after a while but broken? No way, not at all. Think of it as a slower paced Warhawk controls wise. I'm saying this based on my 20 minutes experience at E3 (yep, Sony allowed the game to be there).

So please stop arguing about alternative controls and shit like that. If Lair deserves a 5, it's certenly not due to the controls.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

I like how nobody complained about the control system in Lair til now. I mean. We've got hundread of previews based on game playtests at various events around the world but this complain or potential problem was hardly exposed.

I can understand it being tiresome after a while but broken? No way, not at all. Think of it as a slower paced Warhawk controls wise.

So please stop arguing about alternative controls and shit like that. If Lair deserves a 5, it's certenly not due to the controls.

So, do you have a review build of the game?

edit: nevermind, saw your "20 minutes at E3" edit

 

[TTP]

Not yet

I played it at E3 (edited my prev post)

 

[nelsonroyale]

I like how nobody complained about the control system in Lair til now. I mean. We've got hundread of previews based on game playtests at various events around the world but this complain or potential problem was hardly exposed.

I can understand it being tiresome after a while but broken? No way, not at all. Think of it as a slower paced Warhawk controls wise. I'm saying this based on mine 20 minutes experience at E3 (yep, Sony allowed the game to be there).

So please stop arguing about alternative controls and shit like that. If Lair deserves a 5, it's certenly not due to the controls.

pretty sure 1up were down on the game for a while, but, yeah, complaints on the controls haven't been substantial. Still, maybe egm staff are quite fat and it genuinly tires them out...Personally, I haven't played a full motion sensing game, so Im not really sure how it controls

 

[Mustaphadamus]

I like how nobody complained about the control system in Lair til now. I mean. We've got hundread of previews based on game playtests at various events around the world but this complain or potential problem was hardly exposed.

I can understand it being tiresome after a while but broken? No way, not at all. Think of it as a slower paced Warhawk controls wise. I'm saying this based on mine 20 minutes experience at E3 (yep, Sony allowed the game to be there).

So please stop arguing about alternative controls and shit like that. If Lair deserves a 5, it's certenly not due to the controls.

no one will listen to your post because

1. it makes sense

2. this would mean the 1up bloggers are full of ish and certain folks don't want to accept that.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

pretty sure 1up were down on the game for a while, but, yeah, complaints on the controls haven't been substantial. Still, maybe egm staff are quite fat and it genuinly tires them out...Personally, I haven't played a full motion sensing game, so Im not really sure how it controls

As said, responsive motion control is very possible, as proven by Warhawk.

I wonder though... Factor 5 has emphasized that these dragons are not static crafts, but rather organic creatures, and that this would somehow affect movement. So perhaps some people have problem with this "organic" factor?

 

[tanod]

I'll wait until I get my copy of the EGM review, so I can read it myself. It should be interesting at least. I'm still thinking that there's enough there to justify a purchase but I guess we'll see.

Maybe reviewers are just getting burnt out on Factor 5's formula. If that's the case, I've never played a F5 game, so it's new to me.

 

[Ranger X]

Excite truck worked very very well, controls made the game. No lag as far as I could sense and it is a fast game.

Motion controls can really improve a game, but I think devs have been too sloppy, they have to be really well QAed...

Excite truck is a good game indeed. But it also proves my point imo. There is that delay and controls could have been more responsive with joysticks. The thing is that since Excite truck is an arcade racer and doesn't ask for too much precision, the movement control feels great.

Forget about a sim racer controlling like Excite Truck. It simply wouldn't be responsive enough imo.

There is only one hope for me: I found that Kororinpa is very responsive. The delay doesn't really impact the game.