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Oklahoma cop shoots & kills an unarmed man

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That's my main take away from this. But apparently the police are trained to do that. Really shows you how bad things are here in America.

Guns are meant to be lethal weapons. Police are trained to shoot until a percieved lethal threat is neutralized aka no longer moving. The guy already attempted to kill the officers with his vehicle and then reached for his waist after approaching. If the officers believed the man had a weapon and was trying to get up to use it while he was on his knees then they can argue self-defense. And don't say was obviously unarmed when the officers had less than 5 seconds in bad lighting to make their assessment. The tape and all other related evidence should be reviewed and then judgement should be passed.
 

NJDEN

Member
When police shoot someone with a live firearm it is always to kill, there is no such thing as intending to wound someone (that's the purpose of less lethal). The purpose of continuously shooting is to ensure the assailant doesn't have any potential to engage the public or the officer. It is part of officer safety and use of force training.

I'm just trying to shine light on why the officer continuously engaged the man. I'm not condoning or condemning the use of force. Officer safety training even dictates that the attacker be handcuffed after being shot until he can be officially pronounced dead when things calm down.
 
Guns are meant to be lethal weapons. Police are trained to shoot until a percieved lethal threat is neutralized aka no longer moving. The guy already attempted to kill the officers with his vehicle and then reached for his waist after approaching. If the officers believed the man had a weapon and was trying to get up to use it while he was on his knees then they can argue self-defense. And don't say was obviously unarmed when the officers had less than 5 seconds in bad lighting to make their assessment. The tape and all other related evidence should be reviewed and then judgement should be passed.

Exactly, when you ram a police vehicle, get out to run, point your arms/fingers at them instead of getting down or hands up and yell you'll have to kill me what is to be expected here?

I agree there is a massive problem with deadly force/profiling in the USA but this isn't one of those cases.
 
I thinks its ridiculous that people actually say suicide by cop like that is suppose to explain away the police killing unarmed people. Also suicide by cop makes no sense at all if someone else kills you since the definition of suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally.
 
As a German who lives in Japan, looking at all these videos... unbelievable. America, what is wrong with you? No respect to life at all whatsoever. Shameful to say the least. Just wow.
 
I thinks its ridiculous that people actually say suicide by cop like that is suppose to explain away the police killing unarmed people. Also suicide by cop makes no sense at all if someone else kills you since the definition of suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally.
Suicide by cop makes perfect sense.

A suicidal person intentionally acts in a way that threatens/alarms a cop, trying to provoke a lethal response from them.
 

E-flux

Member
Guns are meant to be lethal weapons. Police are trained to shoot until a percieved lethal threat is neutralized aka no longer moving. The guy already attempted to kill the officers with his vehicle and then reached for his waist after approaching. If the officers believed the man had a weapon and was trying to get up to use it while he was on his knees then they can argue self-defense. And don't say was obviously unarmed when the officers had less than 5 seconds in bad lighting to make their assessment. The tape and all other related evidence should be reviewed and then judgement should be passed.


Then there is a problem with the training, the escalation of force shouldn't stay up there after the first shot. I don't get the us and their way of handling firearms. One shot should give enough time to assess the situation again whether more force is needed or if you can dial it down.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
It actually seemed to have ZERO relation to what the guy was doing. Looks like he was mad at the guy and just fired at him the first second he had a clear and steady opportunity. Then while the guy was standing there kind of dazed realizing he was probably dying, the cop shot him again.

Straight up murder.

Edit: The "He was pointing at me" is total bullshit. Maybe in his hyper-paranoid imagination, but what the video shows is...

Man: *stumbing and getting up* "You're gonna have to kill me!"
Cop: "Show me your hands!"
Man: *starts raising hands while turning around*
Cop: *already shooting*
 

Orayn

Member
As a German who lives in Japan, looking at all these videos... unbelievable. America, what is wrong with you? No respect to life at all whatsoever. Shameful to say the least. Just wow.

I think it's as horrible as you do, but what I am I supposed to do about it as an American? Move away? Can't afford it. Should I just honorably drop dead out of outrage? Quit my job and spend the rest of my life protesting?

I can't vote to disassemble and/or retrain the horrible fucking police on a nationwide level. I can't fix the pervasive problems woven into organizations that exist in other states. I have no more say in this stuff than you do.

It fucking sucks to constantly hear "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU AMERICA?" and have no response, but there really isn't one. I can't do shit. There is no "make everything good again" referendum that Americans like me are just voting no to.
 

RevenWolf

Member
Tragic that someone were to die so young.

But at least the shooting itself appears more justifiable compared to other situations.

I really do t think in a situation like this either argument can fully apply (murder vs self defence etc), personally at this point it seems like we should really have a large advancement in less than lethal weaponry.

If something could be provided or done to ensure both party's safety that would be ideal. Unfortunately I imagine implementing such a thing would be excessively costly and not realistic on such a large scale.
 

kirblar

Member
As a German who lives in Japan, looking at all these videos... unbelievable. America, what is wrong with you? No respect to life at all whatsoever. Shameful to say the least. Just wow.
It's the gun laws. These policies are a direct result and are the cost of having them.
 

RevenWolf

Member
It's the gun laws. These policies are a direct result and are the cost of having them.

My understanding is also that prisons in America aren't very well run (at least private ones).

Do you feel that some reform would be needed there as well? Based on the "suicide by cop" situation it seems like he decided he would rather die then go to prison. I wonder if such a reform would help such cases.
 

noquarter

Member
I think it's as horrible as you do, but what I am I supposed to do about it as an American? Move away? Can't afford it? Should I just honorably drop dead out of outrage?

I can't vote to disassemble and/or retrain the horrible fucking police organizations on a nationwide level. I can't fix the pervasive problems woven into organizations that exist in other states. I have no more say in this stuff than you do.
On a strictly nation wide level there isn't a lot that you can do, but most law enforcement is at the local, county and state level and we actually do have more say in that. That is part of why I think BLM movement could really have an impact. If it keeps up it really could start to have a major effect in the larger areas and that will hopefully move to the smaller areas. Police really do need to get more training in non-lethal control and use what they have at their disposal. They have batons for a reason, but we still so often see them going for deadly force first.
 

antonz

Member
My understanding is also that prisons in America aren't very well run (at least private ones).

Do you feel that some reform would be needed there as well? Based on the "suicide by cop" situation it seems like he decided he would rather die then go to prison. I wonder if such a reform would help such cases.

Guns laws are really the biggest issue. Police in New York city did not really even carry guns until around 1896 when Teddy Roosevelt became Police Commissioner. Then you had the huge crime waves of the 1920s with the Mob that escalated things. The criminals started carrying around things like Tommy Guns etc. while the cops had 6 shot revolvers.

Gun capability just kept growing and for a long time the police were on the losing side of progress as far as what they had versus what Gangs etc. could field. The North Hollywood shootout in 1997 changed things forever. Guys had Armor, Assault weapons etc. and all the police had were pistols and some cars had shotguns. Over 1700 rounds of ammunition were fired during the shootout.

The failure to control what could get into the hands of people led to a lot of harm. Past events etc. have led to training being certain ways and reactions trained.
 

NJDEN

Member
Then there is a problem with the training, the escalation of force shouldn't stay up there after the first shot. I don't get the us and their way of handling firearms. One shot should give enough time to assess the situation again whether more force is needed or if you can dial it down.

When police shoot someone with a live firearm it is always to kill, there is no such thing as intending to wound someone (that's the purpose of less lethal). The purpose of continuously shooting is to ensure the assailant doesn't have any potential to engage the public or the officer. It is part of officer safety and use of force training.

I'm just trying to shine light on why the officer continuously engaged the man. I'm not condoning or condemning the use of force. Officer safety training even dictates that the attacker be handcuffed after being shot until he can be officially pronounced dead when things calm down.

At this point it's a difference of opinion. When a firearm is discharged you use it to kill. Cops aren't trick shots who can shoot the gun out of people's hands, or specifically target limbs with the intent of "wounding" someone. Firearms are not used to de-escalate a situation short of anything other than permanently.
 

kirblar

Member
My understanding is also that prisons in America aren't very well run (at least private ones).

Do you feel that some reform would be needed there as well? Based on the "suicide by cop" situation it seems like he decided he would rather die then go to prison. I wonder if such a reform would help such cases.
"You'll never take me alive" has been a thing in the US way, way before modern private prisons.
 
Suicide by cop makes perfect sense.

A suicidal person intentionally acts in a way that threatens/alarms a cop, trying to provoke a lethal response from them.

I know your not blind because you responded to my post but you must have over looked the definition of suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally. What you just described is not suicide.
 

kirblar

Member
I know your not blind because you responded to my post but you must have over looked the definition of suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally. What you just described is not suicide.
Yes it is. They are very aware of how the cop is going to react, because the cop does not know if they are bullshitting or not and is not going to risk calling the bluff.
 
This one is not as clear cut as the other cop-perpetrated murders of late. The guy allegedly rammed the officer's car, which leaves the cop fearing for his life in the realm of plausibility. I couldn't tell from the video, but it's also plausible that the guy made a threatening gesture.
 
Their vehicle was "hit" by the suspect's vehicle

The dude clearly had his hands out and pointed at the cop

I could see nothing in the guys hand from the posted video

The cop puts one or two into the guys chest

Tells other cop he may have had a gun

Close up of the guy laying there dead

Cops needs to be retrained nation wide to use none lethal force

Yes everything prolly happened too fast for that cop to process but come on. I've been out the military for 5 years and could easily see he didn't have a weapon from that video.

Yeah, and then "you're going to have to kill me"?

Can this be any more stereotypically movie?
 

RevenWolf

Member
Guns laws are really the biggest issue. Police in New York city did not really even carry guns until around 1896 when Teddy Roosevelt became Police Commissioner. Then you had the huge crime waves of the 1920s with the Mob that escalated things. The criminals started carrying around things like Tommy Guns etc. while the cops had 6 shot revolvers.

Gun capability just kept growing and for a long time the police were on the losing side of progress as far as what they had versus what Gangs etc. could field. The North Hollywood shootout in 1997 changed things forever. Guys had Armor, Assault weapons etc. and all the police had were pistols and some cars had shotguns. Over 1700 rounds of ammunition were fired during the shootout.

The failure to control what could get into the hands of people led to a lot of harm. Past events etc. have led to training being certain ways and reactions trained.

"You'll never take me alive" has been a thing in the US way, way before modern private prisons.

Thanks for the information! It's really sad that things like this happen, and Its nice to get an overview of why it does.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Suicide by American cop is way too easy to do.

With a lot of criminals armed, and the guy's approach to the cop he didn't have a lot of choice.. if it was a gun and he didn't shoot he'd be dead now instead.

Other countries where guns aren't as prevalent you wouldn't have to worry about that scenario.. in the States you do.
 

Agkel

Member
With a lot of criminals armed, and the guy's approach to the cop he didn't have a lot of choice.. if it was a gun and he didn't shoot he'd be dead now instead.

Other countries where guns aren't as prevalent you wouldn't have to worry about that scenario.. in the States you do.

How about this? How about this dumb dumb, does not go running out of cover (like a frenzied jackass) into an unknown situation with a suspect, forcing him to have to shoot a "threat"?

Cops need to be re-trained nation wide.
 

Risible

Member
What video did you watch?

He had just rammed the cop, then shouted "you're going to have to kill me nigger" at the cop with his hands sticking out.

Yeah, I have to agree. There's plenty of examples of cops clearly doing the wrong thing, I don't think this is one of them. It's clear in the video that the dude jumps out of the car, screams "You're gonna have to kill me nigga" and swings his hands towards the cop. It's dark and he just rammed a cop car. I can't say I wouldn't have shot in the same situation.
 

holygeesus

Banned
Neutralising a threat doesn't mean shooting someone until they stop moving though. You can incapacitate someone without having to execute them. It's like that Byron Smith murder charge - you can argue he was justified shooting an intruder, but to then shoot them when they are down becomes excessive.

In this case, just trying to get yourself up after being shot in the chest, doesn't justify having more rounds pumped into you. It's almost an act of anger, on behalf of the cop, that the suspect should dare defy him, rather than any kind of protection element, at this point. If the suspect had again raised his hands at him, I could understand further action though.

If it is indeed the training, then the training is just bad.
 

totowhoa

Banned
Fuuuck me. This is one of those instances where it's easier to be sympathetic to the cop given American culture.

But then it makes you wonder about why American culture is so fucked up.
 
I know your not blind because you responded to my post but you must have over looked the definition of suicide is the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally. What you just described is not suicide.
You are taking your life by intentionally using the weapon of the provoked cop.
 

E-flux

Member
At this point it's a difference of opinion. When a firearm is discharged you use it to kill. Cops aren't trick shots who can shoot the gun out of people's hands, or specifically target limbs with the intent of "wounding" someone. Firearms are not used to de-escalate a situation short of anything other than permanently.

Of course, that would be ridiculous to expect them to be crack shots, hell even shooting at the invidual limbs would be a problem for the most, especially in a stressful situation. But shooting to kill is the wrong attitude in my opinion even if they are designed to kill. If you pull the trigger I think you should be 100% that the opposition is actually a threat to your own life, no amount of putative explanations are good enough for me when it comes to guns.
 

Ultryx

Member
Suspect tried to ram the police car multiple times, then led him on a chase, got out of the vehicle and was fleeing, and then making hand gestures?

Give me a fucking break. Ramming the police car is attempted murder or grave bodily harm to me.
 

Amon37

Member
Suspect tried to ram the police car multiple times, then led him on a chase, got out of the vehicle and was fleeing, and then making hand gestures?

Give me a fucking break. Ramming the police car is attempted murder or grave bodily harm to me.

My thoughts as well.
 

Instro

Member
Sad, but I don't see the angle on this one. Plenty of bad cop work to go around without having to reach on stuff like this.
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
This is disturbing.

Aren't there stories out there about someone on PCP who got shot and still managed to do a lot of damage after the fact?

Also I don't blame the cop on this one. They had a fraction of a second to decide and after all the shit they went through, I'm not surprised that they may have thought that the suspect brandished a gun.
 
Exactly, when you ram a police vehicle, get out to run, point your arms/fingers at them instead of getting down or hands up and yell you'll have to kill me what is to be expected here?

I agree there is a massive problem with deadly force/profiling in the USA but this isn't one of those cases.

I'm wondering if there is a single person in this thread who, if put in the officer's position, WOULDN'T have shot. So, so easy to sit at a keyboard and judge. "Even I can see he didn't have a gun!" Yeah, okay. Try it when you're scared out of your fucking mind and a guy is running at you, screaming how he won't be taken alive.

There are plenty of bad shootings in America, we absolutely need to get better at deescalation and prosecuting bad cops. But we can believe that and still understand that these guys are asked to do the impossible sometimes.
 

AxelFoley

Member
This shit is why people are going after cops now. That, and cops getting off scott free for murdering unarmed citizens.

And no, I'm not justifying it. This is just real talk.
 

Crosseyes

Banned
This shit is why people are going after cops now. That, and cops getting off scott free for murdering unarmed citizens.

And no, I'm not justifying it. This is just real talk.
Indeed. It's as depressing as a case that sparks national outrage. This is no bad shooting by a bad cop. It's a normal shooting by a normal cop.

A conflict resolution that a majority of America would likely find acceptable.

What other recourse besides insurgent attacks is left for oppressed people when shown this and the overwhelming response by those in power is that -this- one is just plain fair and obvious to have to have armed authorities kill that unarmed citizen.
 
This shit is why people are going after cops now. That, and cops getting off scott free for murdering unarmed citizens.

And no, I'm not justifying it. This is just real talk.
People are going after cops because cops shot a guy who was trying to kill them on the road moments earlier?

I mean come on. There's more than enough police violence out there that we shouldn't need to use examples like this.
 

NimbusD

Member
Well, because they can easily claim this was suicide by cop.

because the guy pointed his finger in the shape of a gun? That's acceptable, even after stretching to accept that 'suicide by cop' is acceptable?

Looks like we've already accepted euthanasia as a culture as long as a cop administers it and you go up to them and say 'boom'.
 
As a German who lives in Japan, looking at all these videos... unbelievable. America, what is wrong with you? No respect to life at all whatsoever. Shameful to say the least. Just wow.

dude kids got murdered and still nothing was done and everything else gets changed under the "wont someone please think of the children" mindset
 
I know you're smarter than this.
I would hope you're smarter than you're acting too.
What kind of bs logic is this you see the definition for suicide and this is what you come up with? If someone else kills you it is not suicide.
Suicide is intentionally causing your own death.

Intentionally provoking a cop with the intent of causing him or her to fire on you is intentionally causing your own death.
 
Alright, so the thing I never understood was, how people justify this--or any really--level of suspicion and force with "they could have a weapon". It sounds logical so I get why it's a commonly said response, but the simple fact is, when people have weapons, they don't wait until Police Officers get close and start chatting with them to make that clear. Look up any video of Police getting shot at, and almost always it's someone barreling out of their car firing as fast as they can, or a cop walks up and the person immediately starts firing. I have never seen a video where there's any real delay between them being in proximity and the person firing--by contrast all the videos of police shooting unarmed people, it's usually after several seconds or even minutes of them issue commands.

If someone has a weapon, they aren't going to risk being shot before they get a chance to use it, so why bother using that excuse? It just doesn't fit with the way humans interact with Police Officers historically. Look at the Dallas shooting, did the guy get stopped by Police and then start firing? No, he preemptively took a position and started picking them off with the element of surprise. If people are going to try and go toe-to-toe with someone who they know is also carrying a weapon, they are going to want to have every advantage possible.

This guy hopped out of his car and ran into the open--this tactically is the worst thing he could have done, and right there should have given away that he wasn't actually a threat. But Officer Donnie had already gotten out of his car and drawn his weapon, so he had decided the guy was a threat. The problem isn't "it happened too fast", it's that the Officers mind was made up before he even got over to the guy--this is the flaw with the way Police Officers conduct business in this country. They are trained that anyone doing something other than completely complying while being white and fearful, is a potential threat.
 

kirblar

Member
Alright, so the thing I never understood was, how people justify this--or any really--level of suspicion and force with "they could have a weapon". It sounds logical so I get why it's a commonly said response, but the simple fact is, when people have weapons, they don't wait until Police Officers get close and start chatting with them to make that clear.
This is not true. I don't really want to go looking for the unpleasant videos from worst-case scenarios to show you you're wrong, but they're out there.

If your intent is to kill them, the last thing you want is to alert them to that fact.
 

red731

Member
I wanted to post making fun of the land of free, but won't.

Rest in peace.

Reminds me of Mr Bean airport scene with the "finger-gun" except the death.
 
I'm wondering if there is a single person in this thread who, if put in the officer's position, WOULDN'T have shot. So, so easy to sit at a keyboard and judge. "Even I can see he didn't have a gun!" Yeah, okay. Try it when you're scared out of your fucking mind and a guy is running at you, screaming how he won't be taken alive.

There are plenty of bad shootings in America, we absolutely need to get better at deescalation and prosecuting bad cops. But we can believe that and still understand that these guys are asked to do the impossible sometimes.

Accurate I would say. I'd also like to quote someone above your post that is quite accurate in reply IMO.

With a lot of criminals armed, and the guy's approach to the cop he didn't have a lot of choice.. if it was a gun and he didn't shoot he'd be dead now instead.

Other countries where guns aren't as prevalent you wouldn't have to worry about that scenario.. in the States you do.

I've been in the situation of being in a car chase for dozens of Kms by a madman and literally fearing for my life.

I'm not a small guy and have been in the odd fight over my decades here but this dude was a massive beast and trying to run me off the freeway repeatedly, chasing me down turns, I had to run red lights, got cornered then he got out of the car and ran right me etc. If I hadn't of had my wits that night and got my car, with me inside it still, well away from two very badly cornered encounters over 20 minutes I have zero doubt I would be handicap or dead. I had the presence of mind to pull into a police station that I planned the lights/turns ahead of time because I had a few minutes to think/plan. I knew 100% it would have been a "to the death" or a very brutal fight. No doubt. Had he gotten me out of the car I would have attacked with lethality right away, no hesitation, preemptive protection as it were. I could see no weapon on him, I had no weapon and yet I knew the lethal beating side was very present in this deluded hulk of rage after me. I have a tiny peek into what that moment of kill or be killed feels like, I wouldn't want a cops job in these false or very real situations where you have a split second to decide.

Back on topic, bad cops should be systemically removed from the system and punished, the system should be changed IMO, racial issues need to be addresses in the USA on all sides but...dog piling and keyboard warriors also need to go. It's too easy to not have experience in those situations and retrospectively call things out. A good cop making a lethal mistake has to live with that their entire lives, just as the victims have to live without their loved ones.

Bad or racist cops killing people can go fuck themselves however. Bad people hurting random cops can also go fuck themselves. Something needs to change but this video doesn't show a murderous cop as some of the other videos of late have IMO.
 
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