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[Inuhanyou]

What else can be said?

I don't think anyone can really argue those points.

I don't know Cindy's original perception when Roberto ferrari first designed her, but how the development team has portrayed her via DLC and camera pan shots and commentary is just sickening.

 

[yunbuns]

What else can be said?

I don't think anyone can really argue those points.

I don't know Cindy's original perception when Roberto ferrari first designed her, but how the development team has portrayed her via DLC and camera pan shots and commentary is just sickening.

The sad apart Cidney is that she was a wonderful personality. I know a lot of people find her to be a caricature and her accent annoying but I find her to be really charming. She deserved better.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Well the game was conceived over a decade ago, so it's not surprising it has 2006 ideals. I hope XVI handles this issue, but it doesn't make XV less of a game to me.

2006 ideals? Having female characters that don't completely suck has been in Final Fantasy since at least 1991 (haven't really played pre-FFIV games), what the hell are you talking about?

 

[Inuhanyou]

The sad apart Cidney is that she was a wonderful personality. I know a lot of people find her to be a caricature and her accent annoying but I find her to be really charming. She deserved better.

it would have been cool if

Spoiler

the age of ruin timeskip had been properly paced and at the actual halfway point of the game, so we could see how the other characters have progressed. Seeing a no nonsense cindy in a super serious 180 being all hunter oriented a shit now with proper clothes would have been awesome. We know Iris became a hunter as well during the age of ruin, but we never actually get to see her. So much potential was just thrown out of the window

 

[Doran902]

I'm enjoying the game a lot but the way Cindy dresses is kind of awkward.

To be honest though the thing that bothers me the most with games like this isn't the way girls are dressed it is the way they are animated in either super ditsy or over the top posing in sexual ways or even child like ways even though they are adults (or weird combinations of both). It might just be a disconnect with me and some games though. I have the same issue with some anime.

 

[Garlador]

Well the game was conceived over a decade ago, so it's not surprising it has 2006 ideals. I hope XVI handles this issue, but it doesn't make XV less of a game to me.

Crazy enough, that's really not even a good excuse. I'd even argue that something like Pride & Prejudice has more progressive views and treatment of women than FFXV, and it came out in 1813.

Noctis is no Mr. Darcy, I'll tell you that, and Luna is certainly no Elizabeth Bennet.

 

[CrispyBoar]

My question is: where was the character development for Luna? As the viewer what is there there that I should care about what happens to her?

I agree. Because of that, Luna has turned out to be one of the worst female characters ever in a FF game (& I'm positive that there are other worse female characters just like her in other JRPG's as well).

 

[Inuhanyou]

I agree. Because of that, Luna has turned out to be one of the worst female characters ever in a FF game (& I'm positive that there are other worse female characters just like her in other JRPG's as well).

Can you name them? It feels like that kind of claim is tacked on. Sure i'm sure there are games that have females worse, but isolating that to JRPG's as if they are inherently sexist is wrong IMO

 

[Kagari]

I agree. Because of that, Luna has turned out to be one of the worst female characters ever in a FF game (& I'm positive that there are other worse female characters just like her in other JRPG's as well).

She didn't do much so I feel fairly indifferent toward her.

 

[pashmilla]

Can you name them? It feels like that kind of claim is tacked on. Sure i'm sure there are games that have females worse, but isolating that to JRPG's as if they are inherently sexist is wrong IMO

I feel like it's probably because so many JRPGs fall into the anime waifu/pandering trap. Or a lot of them feel like they do, at least.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

What I find out about Cindy is they took all this time to craft this rack on Cindy for display and they look like immovable plastic. Just really weird there is no jiggle, looks more like a living plastic Barbie doll.

 

[Vlaphor]

What I find out about Cindy is they took all this time to craft this rack on Cindy for display and they look like immovable plastic. Just really weird there is no jiggle, looks more like a living plastic Barbie doll.

Even more reason to wait for the eventual PC version.

 

[CrispyBoar]

Can you name them? It feels like that kind of claim is tacked on. Sure i'm sure there are games that have females worse, but isolating that to JRPG's as if they are inherently sexist is wrong IMO

What I meant by that, is other female characters like Luna getting worse representation & character development. Being sexist was never my intent.

And I do agree with other posters in this thread for how the female characters were represented with their clothing, etc. At least with Rydia & Tifa they were different, as they were more than just characters with revealing clothing.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I feel like it's probably because so many JRPGs fall into the anime waifu/pandering trap. Or a lot of them feel like they do, at least.

That's just a felt perception though, its not an actual take on the RPG's that exist. Like saying all anime watchers are pedophiles because of a certain style not prevalent across every piece of media, or a majority at absolute large.

Even games like Persona that get a bad rap for being the poster child of waifu pandering actually have well fleshed out female characters in reality, even though most of the characters in the game are built to bond with the MC in specific ways.

What I meant by that, is other female characters like Luna getting worse representation & character development. Being sexist was never my intent.

I also apologize, i didn't mean sexism, i meant bad female portrayal. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, i used the wrong term myself

 

[Garlador]

That's just a felt perception though, its not an actual take on the RPG's that exist. Like saying all anime watchers are pedophiles because of a certain style not prevalent across every piece of media, or a majority at absolute large.

Even games like Persona that get a bad rap for being the poster child of waifu pandering actually have well fleshed out female characters in reality, even though most of the characters in the game are built to bond with the MC in specific ways.

It's hard to summarize the entire JRPG landscape.

For every timeless JRPG that resonates with the public or gamers - a Final Fantasy, a Pokemon, a Dragon Quest, a Lost Odyssey, a Xenoblade - you have a dozen JRPGs that have glaring problems but just don't really seem to matter to the cultural conversation (sorry The Last Remnant, Infinite Undiscovery, Phantasy Star Universe, etc.).

I can clearly remember bland, underwritten, or underdeveloped characters - of all genders - in games like Arc the Lad or Legend of the Dragoon or the many Tales of... games.

But I think it stands out in this case with something like Final Fantasy because we EXPECT more from Final Fantasy. We look to it as one of the bastions of the industry, a franchise OTHER JRPGs look to and mimic. A trendsetter and leader. Thus we and the rest of the industry watches it closely and emulates its successes.

So how they handle something like women has ripple effects across the gaming landscape, and because of its size and scope, what we do or do not permit has lasting consequences for how they develop their games and how they go about writing and developing women for future projects.

That's why I think it's important to let them know now that there are indeed some problems with how they wrote the women in this game, and to acknowledge that this isn't just a one-off mistake as these issues are present in games like Type-0, Lightning Returns, and The 3rd Birthday to variable degrees of tolerance. Those games got more of a pass for being less high-profile, but FF15 is THE big game for them for the foreseeable future, and it needs and deserves the criticism where it is appropriate.

 

[dramatis]

That's why I think it's important to let them know now that there are indeed some problems with how they wrote the women in this game, and to acknowledge that this isn't just a one-off mistake as these issues are present in games like Type-0, Lightning Returns, and The 3rd Birthday to variable degrees of tolerance. Those games got more of a pass for being less high-profile, but FF15 is THE big game for them for the foreseeable future, and it needs and deserves the criticism where it is appropriate.

I don't know about that. For example.

Mobius Final Fantasy (then known as Mevius) was announced the week of 12/16/2014, with an image of the main male character. They released more screenshots of the main character about a week after. There was an uproar about how the main male character was too girly, the design too hideous, and so on. In April 2015, Kitase (producer on the game) said, roughly, "Yeah the design was too sexy, we're giving him more clothes." Turnaround time on feedback? About 4 months.

Cindy was first shown at Jump Festa 2014 (also 12/2014). There has been a lot of chatter about her design and the unhappiness with her design was even mentioned as feedback on an ATR (4/29/2015)—also about 4 months. What happened?

Nothing.

It's clear the FF15 team had no intention on listening to feedback about Cindy. People say we should stop being negative, when there is such clear discrimination in how the Japanese developers treat their male consumers compared to their female consumers.

 

[Meowster]

Iris and (especially) Aranea really should have been in the game more.

 

[RpgN]

It pains me to see what FF games are turning into. It's been clear that things are getting worse with each new entry. FFXV is at the point where it's gone too far with no redeeming qualities when it comes to the female characters.

2 things were mentioned in the thread that I would like to talk a bit more about: Lightning's treatment in the third game and female developers influencing game design in Japan.

While I understand that there are some who think bikini's don't fit with Lightning, I didn't see it this way. You as the player are given the choice in whatever way to dress her. Games with costume options don't affect the story since they're costumization options. Isn't it better to be given a choice? It's easy to ignore the bikinis and never see them in the game. The game has so many costumes, it's not like there weren't enough alternatives.

I'm interested to hear more about this from members who know more about the Japanese culture, but I've been observing women who get invited to give comments or play games with the developers. I have also been noticing comments from younger idols. Sometimes these women (the ones that I've seen), seem to talk about how sexy the playable female characters are. They talk in a positive way. It also seems that they are more open to talk about ass and breasts with others. Like for instance, you have a show on tv where idols are invited. The idols get interviewed about the dance moves to focus on with their songs (asking the audience to pay attention to the ass motion during the dance). When idols are being interviewed in magazines...they talk about the best thing about other members...some members openly mention that another girl's breasts is her strong point.

I'm not sure what that says about Japanese women. It definitely seems that they are more direct about it and perhaps some want sexiness. Whether it's because it's part of the culture or whether it's forced on them and build up for years is unclear. We don't get interviews with Japanese women about these kind of issues (at least they don't seem to be easily visible).

My point is...I'm not sure if having the input of female developers might change the designs in more logical ways always. I get reminded of certain female character designers.

 

[Lime]

Iris and (especially) Aranea really should have been in the game more.

I don't think that more presence of boob window valkyrie is going to help matters

absolutely the worst character design I've seen in a long time

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It pains me to see what FF games are turning into. It's been clear that things are getting worse with each new entry. FFXV is at the point where it's gone too far with no redeeming qualities when it comes to the female characters.

2 things were mentioned in the thread that I would like to talk a bit more about: Lightning's treatment in the third game and female developers influencing game design in Japan.

While I understand that there are some who think bikini's don't fit with Lightning, I didn't see it this way. You as the player are given the choice in whatever way to dress her. Games with costume options don't affect the story since they're costumization options. Isn't it better to be given a choice? It's easy to ignore the bikinis and never see them in the game. The game has so many costumes, it's not like there weren't enough alternatives.

I'm interested to hear more about this from members who know more about the Japanese culture, but I've been observing women who get invited to give comments or play games with the developers. I have also been noticing comments from younger idols. Sometimes these women (the ones that I've seen), seem to talk about how sexy the playable female characters are. They talk in a positive way. It also seems that they are more open to talk about ass and breasts with others. Like for instance, you have a show on tv where idols are invited. The idols get interviewed about the dance moves to focus on with their songs (asking the audience to pay attention to the ass motion during the dance). When idols are being interviewed in magazines...they talk about the best thing about other members...some members openly mention that another girl's breasts is her strong point.

I'm not sure what that says about Japanese women. It definitely seems that they are more direct about it and perhaps some want sexiness. Whether it's because it's part of the culture or whether it's forced on them and build up for years is unclear. We don't get interviews with Japanese women about these kind of issues (at least they don't seem to be easily visible).

My point is...I'm not sure if having the input of female developers might change the designs in more logical ways always. I get reminded of certain female character designers.

Idols sell stuff. Talk like that sells.

 

[Veelk]

Well, now that the game is out, I'm curious to see what people actually have to say.

I haven't played it, so I would hope people spoiler tag specific events, but I would like to hear the non-spoiler thoughts people have on it's treatment of women. I heard Luna doesn't come off too well, but maybe other characters...?

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Well, now that the game is out, I'm curious to see what people actually have to say.

I haven't played it, so I would hope people spoiler tag specific events, but I would like to hear the non-spoiler thoughts people have on it's treatment of women. I heard Luna doesn't come off too well, but maybe other characters...?

I haven't played XV myself, but from what I've seen, reception to Aranea and Iris were much more positive. The problem was that both are barely in, and the latter gets straight up forgotten half way through. Cindy was...exactly what everyone expected

 

[pashmilla]

Well, now that the game is out, I'm curious to see what people actually have to say.

I haven't played it, so I would hope people spoiler tag specific events, but I would like to hear the non-spoiler thoughts people have on it's treatment of women. I heard Luna doesn't come off too well, but maybe other characters...?

Everyone was fanservice or underused. Aranea and Iris are best girls but barely have any screentime, Cindy and Luna are just sad. I'm happy to do anspoiler free tl;dr for you but I'm on mobile rn.

 

[Mifec]

Great thread. Just one thing, when Ignis says quite sultry, he is commenting on the sunset. He never did it in Lestallum for me(and if he did it would have been for the sunset) and does it outside in nature all the time.

 

[WaterAstro]

I found it ironic that there was that town where woman are the workers, I guess it's their way of "elevating woman status" in the game, but they're in these slutty denim overalls that show off butt cracks.

 

[Marmaladefire]

I found it ironic that there was that town where woman are the workers, I guess it's their way of "elevating woman status" in the game, but they're in these slutty denim overalls that show off butt cracks.

Spoiler

"Sounds like your type of place, Iris"

 

[BocoDragon]

I found it ironic that there was that town where woman are the workers, I guess it's their way of "elevating woman status" in the game, but they're in these slutty denim overalls that show off butt cracks.

It reminds me of FFIV. A game which has both a town run entirely by women (Troia). A token of female empowerment.

...But the game also has literal dancing girls (who take off their dress and strip down to a bikini in the original Japanese version).

 

[- J - D -]

Pretty sad. It's like this game was written ten+ years ago.

 

[Shandy]

Actual conversation in Lestallum:

NPC Male 1: Heard the wife got a promotion! Congrats!
NPC Male 2: Yeah, I know I should be happy, but... the better she does, the smaller I feel.

Damnable women! So accomplished and emasculating!

I suppose I should take solace in the fact that he at least acknowledges it's wrong to feel that way (kind of)? It's also a good display of why feminism is good for men as well as women. Rising tides and such.

 

[pashmilla]

Great thread. Just one thing, when Ignis says quite sultry, he is commenting on the sunset. He never did it in Lestallum for me(and if he did it would have been for the sunset) and does it outside in nature all the time.

Haha, what the hell. I've never heard that word used that way.

 

[KiN0]

This a little off topic, but I wanted to know what everyone here thinks of the design for Beatrix from ff9. I like her character; she's strong and has her own conflicts and struggles, but the design is a little gratuitous in the chest department.

Do you guys think she's depicted respectfully or do her breasts detract from that?

 

[Etrian Oddity]

This a little off topic, but I wanted to know what everyone here thinks of the design for Beatrix from ff9. I like her character; she's strong and has her own conflicts and struggles, but the design is a little gratuitous in the chest department.

Do you guys think she's depicted respectfully or do her breasts detract from that?

She decimates your party on like 3 different occasions.

I don't think it's gratuitous. I think if one did deem it so, I'd worry about how they could cope in real life where cleavage is far more abundant.

 

[Bladenic]

I'm late to this party but..

I'm still in slight disbelief that Luna ended up as she did. Frankly I think it's straight up disrespectful to mention Luna in the same sentence as Yuna, Aerith, Tifa, Dagger, and Vanille (and plenty of others). HELL, Rosa who's the textbook damsel still had some moments like when she went searching for Cecil alone or when Cecil tried to leave her behind and she's like "FUCK that." Lightning is several football fields better than Luna.

I don't think I'll even remember Luna as the main female protagonist. Not only is she not deserving of that title as a character, but her screen time amounts to almost nothing. Aranea, Cindy, and Iris all felt like they had just as much if not more screen time than Luna. And unlike Luna, none of the aforementioned characters revolved solely around one man (in terms of motivations, etc).

If there's ever been a game that I'd like to see everything revealed development wise, it's this one. I truly wonder what Stella's role would've ended up being.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

This a little off topic, but I wanted to know what everyone here thinks of the design for Beatrix from ff9. I like her character; she's strong and has her own conflicts and struggles, but the design is a little gratuitous in the chest department.

Do you guys think she's depicted respectfully or do her breasts detract from that?

IMO the artstyle makes it easy not to focus on her breasts. She has a big head, big curls, big hands and gloves, a huge belt and eyepatch, etc.

 

[pashmilla]

Part 3, git hype.

 

[Banzai]

This a little off topic, but I wanted to know what everyone here thinks of the design for Beatrix from ff9. I like her character; she's strong and has her own conflicts and struggles, but the design is a little gratuitous in the chest department.

Do you guys think she's depicted respectfully or do her breasts detract from that?

just because a female character has big breasts doesn't mean they're sexualized. Beatrix is very much a character with own goals, struggles and emotions.

 

[Gai Murakumo]

Part 3, git hype.

Nice write up. Sums up my feelings of those two characters quite well. I hope Aranea and Iris show up more in DLC or become playable, it would be nice.

 

[Peroroncino]

I don't think that more presence of boob window valkyrie is going to help matters

absolutely the worst character design I've seen in a long time

http://67.media.tumblr.com/4f2ec5a8ddbdccbe7a36d7bc341fa7b3/tumblr_od9hwc4Krb1rmg5g8o2_400.jpg

She doesn't look like that in the final version, there's no skin shown on her thighs, no 'panties cut-out' and 'chest department' also got a little better, there is still some clevage sure, but not as apparent as it was on that art where she has some sort of an 'armor gap' with a thin cloth in-between, in retail version armor is stretched from left to right.

Honestly I think she looks fine in retail, and not to mention, she's a badass. Definitely my favourite secondary character in XV.

 

[jiggle]

Well i got to the Leviathan scene
I wasnt expecting much after Luna's treatment in kingslaive
But

Spoiler

her death

was so unnecessary
And they had to add in a slap for a final humiliation
Disgusting really
Adding that to throwing away crowe like garbage
And turning iris into a home maker/gardener

This is just too much

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Then there's Prompto, who--because, as Square Enix would constantly like to remind us, these characters are very heterosexual and not at all gay, ever, because they love boobs--promptly (heh) declares that he is now torn between Aranea and Cindy, and cannot possibly decide which of them he'd rather bang. I have a third option for you, Prompto: how about we stop talking about women like they're pieces of meat? That'll get you further ahead with the ladies, I promise you.

UGHHHH.

I hated that sequence, it was such a "bro" sequence in all the wrong ways. Just about superficial qualities instead of interior qualities.

According to Hajime Tabata, the reason why we couldn't have female party members is because "having a girl in a group of guys would change the dynamic and kill the bro-trip feeling", or something like that. And yet Aranea and Iris are both living proof that this is absolutely not the case, which makes their secondary, temporary status sting even more.

DOUBLE UGH.

Look, I can understand an argument for wanting a real "bro" trip where the primary (permanent) party members are all guys. But Aranea and Iris join the party without disrupting any kind of camaraderie, and there's no reason that A) they couldn't be around longer B) be around more often and C) included a guest appearance with Luna rather than fridging her and trying to make me give a shit.

 

[jiggle]

It actually felt really nice when iris and Aran joined too

 

[Bladenic]

Iris and (especially) Aranea really should have been in the game more.

Am I the only one that hears Lightning in Aranea? If I didn't already know it was Kari Wahlgren who voiced her I wouldn't have been surprised to learn it was Ali Hillis showing more emotion than Lightning or Liara ever did.

Maybe I just don't remember that well what Ashe and Elika sounded like

 

[HotHamBoy]

just because a female character has big breasts doesn't mean they're sexualized. Beatrix is very much a character with own goals, struggles and emotions.

This is a thing I've always wanted to discuss.

I feel like big breasts are automatically viewed as obscene and gratuitous. Half of women have big breasts and it veers into body shaming to attack a character design just because her breasts are large. It's more about how they are presented.

You'll notice that almost all comercials that aren't using sex to sell to straight men feature women with very small breasts. (Or I notice, at least...)

I always thought that seemed like a weird way of basically suggesting that all big breasted women are bimbos. Certainly it is harder for big breasted women to be taken seriously in this world. And they can't wear a lot of the same clothes a small breasted woman can without looking "slutty" or inappropriate in certain places.

 

[pashmilla]

Well of course pixels don't have choice. Imagery is observed because humans are cognitively predisposed to want to see patterns, and define structure/relatability. Your offense to pixels would be as legitimate of a representation of your argument, as would your dismissal of the allusion of "choice" in said pixels (video game charracters). Within the construct of our human minds we can choose to be as immersed in whatever fantasy of our liking. Given the readily observable fact of women choosing to dress in a sexual manner, and given how averse we aught to be towards slut shaming (as would be the neccesary objective stemming from sex positivism), your moralising objection towards sexy pixels in a fantasy game is disconcerting.

We should be offended by sexy "pixels", created by "horny" (healthy human beings with creative minds who happen also to have an active libido) "privileged" (directors by profession who endeavour to use tools as a means to escape from reality) "Men" (Eww)

A comment left on my Cindy post. Can... can someone translate this into actual people words? I gather they think I'm slutshaming but aside from that I'm lost.

 

[Bladenic]

A comment left on my Cindy post. Can... can someone translate this into actual people words? I gather they think I'm slutshaming but aside from that I'm lost.

1. Video game characters aren't real/don't have a choice
2. You shouldn't slut shame/sex positive women are cool (I think is what he/she meant lmao)
3. Don't blame the creators cuz they're just men who want to escape reality where they can't get laid I guess?

 

[Tizoc]

OP by any chance would you do a write up on tales series' female characters?

 

[pashmilla]

OP by any chance would you do a write up on tales series' female characters?

Never played a Tales game, alas. Sorry!

 

[massoluk]

I am very uncomfortable playing videogame with my family because of the design like Cindy

 

[Bladenic]

OP by any chance would you do a write up on tales series' female characters?

Here I'll do it for you for the main characters

Colette - definition of a klutz/kidnapped a lot/worse version of Yuna
Strong woman rating - 100/10 (cuz her angel powers made her really strong)

Tear - a huge bitch
SWR - 5/10 because she's a good assassin but ganged up on Luke with the others making her stupid

Estelle - the best Tales female lead even though she can't make up her mind about continuing to travel with Yuri every 5 minutes. Also bi
SWR - 10/10 because she's my favorite

Shirley - a genocidal maniac cuz her crush didn't wanna tap that
SWR - 0/10 although it's probably 10/10 because she can end the world

Cheria - the definition of "can't spit it out but gets mad when clearly oblivious fool doesn't get it"
SWR - 0/10 because she got kidnapped exactly once for 3 seconds and tried to escape on her own but didn't succeed.

Milla - not a real woman, gets bigger and bouncier tits in the sequel, has a weird relationship with a fifteen year old (I don't care about Japan's different rules)
SWR - an 8/10 in Xillia, 9/10 because of her bigger chest

Rose - a huge ass bitch to Alisha aka the real Stella getting shafted by Luna in her own game. Treated like some second coming by other characters but she sucks
SWR - AlishaWasRobbed/10

Velvet - a stripper with a bear claw for an arm that I heard gives amazing handles
SWR - BerseriaIsAlmostBerserk/10


Wow I spent a lot of time on a joke post in an inappropriate thread.

 

[Plywood]

I don't think that more presence of boob window valkyrie is going to help matters

absolutely the worst character design I've seen in a long time

I don't know I think Aranea wins and wins it big in one way that I don't see enough characters designs display and that's confidence (in spite of how visually noisy the armor is):