Zombegoast
Member
in a world that looks modern to ours
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On Final Fantasy XV and female characters
- Thread starter pashmilla
- Start date
in a world that looks modern to ours
The Emperor
Member
It is disappointing that compared to the XIII series, XII, X the role of women has regressed dramatically.
I am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt, or was, because I am a huge proponent in letting creators tell the story they want to tell. If Luna is the way she is for that story to serve its purpose so be it.
BUT
After Cindy and the gif of that horrific comment on the video about 'fans wanting more female characters but wai they whine about cindy' I can't help but think there is tremendous misogyny at play here. And the developers have no idea about creating a well written female character. I am not gonna say the word 'strong', as I HATE that word...what does it even mean?...it is frankly insulting and feels like a term that has been made up by a cis-hetero male to hype up an audience for a female character
Luna being this self sacrificing nun who gives her all to the world and most importantly to her 'betrothed king' is a very ancient fantasy trope that a naive 8 year old me would have probably found charming as hell. Today though...not so much...there is hopefully more depth there.
I am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt, or was, because I am a huge proponent in letting creators tell the story they want to tell. If Luna is the way she is for that story to serve its purpose so be it.
BUT
After Cindy and the gif of that horrific comment on the video about 'fans wanting more female characters but wai they whine about cindy' I can't help but think there is tremendous misogyny at play here. And the developers have no idea about creating a well written female character. I am not gonna say the word 'strong', as I HATE that word...what does it even mean?...it is frankly insulting and feels like a term that has been made up by a cis-hetero male to hype up an audience for a female character
Luna being this self sacrificing nun who gives her all to the world and most importantly to her 'betrothed king' is a very ancient fantasy trope that a naive 8 year old me would have probably found charming as hell. Today though...not so much...there is hopefully more depth there.
Okay, but what about presentation? Of course the main characters are attractive, it's a JRPG. EVERYONE heroic is attractive. Gladio walks around with his abs on display, yes; but we don't get repeated lingering shots of him gyrating and flexing his abs. As I mentioned, Cindy's outfit is not the problem (or at least, not the only problem); it's the blatantly oversexualised presentation of her that does not apply to the male characters.
Stone Ocean
Member
We're not talking about just the design. If she just had a skimpy design but was strong as a character, fine. Tifa's around.
But Cindy has no purpose but to be jack off material. Her grandfather could have completely replaced her in the game and nothing would have changed besides having no creepy camera shots panning over her ass while she gets into position and annoying VR modes and car DLC.
Not to mention how the other guy characters fall all over her to get her number.
The Emperor
Member
Fantasy based on reality phrase is seriously being misinterpreted LOL
TropicalFish
Member
D... did you not read any part of the OP that specifically talks about this? There's like two paragraphs that go into detail about how criticism's against Cindy's design aren't just about her revealing attire.
To be fair, I believe that notion is most only invoked when people complain about the fact that the crew is all male (yes, FF can do that if it wants to). As an excuse for sexism it holds no ground, but first we need to prove this sexism is there, of course (which you are working on with your essays).
Unfortunately, what has become the defacto standard for "Badass female" characters doesn't leave much room for a whole lot of femininity. It's a shame to me that so many think a woman/girl has to be a tomboy in order to be viewed as strong.
Could someone give a rundown of what happened in Kingsglaive with Luna? Sounds pretty bad from the vague info so far.
Cindy...yeah Cindy is atrocious. I was trying to think of ways that what we've seen of her could become okay and the two ideas that have appeared in my head are that:
1. She has a sister who does most of the actual mechanic work and constantly gives her crap about dressing like she does and focusing more on boys than her family business, and said sister is more prevalent in the story.
2. It's all an act to drum up business and as soon as she's off the clock she's wearing normal clothes and excited about doing something besides being an ad for their garage. Hell you could have a whole bit about her being annoyed at the boys for being no better than all the other hormone driven yahoos who come to the garage because of her bit. See, actual depth while having an excuse to have her dress skimpy for a bit!
Sadly I doubt anything resembling those is the case and that she's exactly what she appears to be.
Cindy...yeah Cindy is atrocious. I was trying to think of ways that what we've seen of her could become okay and the two ideas that have appeared in my head are that:
1. She has a sister who does most of the actual mechanic work and constantly gives her crap about dressing like she does and focusing more on boys than her family business, and said sister is more prevalent in the story.
2. It's all an act to drum up business and as soon as she's off the clock she's wearing normal clothes and excited about doing something besides being an ad for their garage. Hell you could have a whole bit about her being annoyed at the boys for being no better than all the other hormone driven yahoos who come to the garage because of her bit. See, actual depth while having an excuse to have her dress skimpy for a bit!
Sadly I doubt anything resembling those is the case and that she's exactly what she appears to be.
sensui-tomo
Member
You probably missed that Hateful 8 thread in Off-topic the other week where it was an odd discussion of people saying it was sexist to the female character in that film (aka a piece of shit human being which is odd to see for a female role ever) I still think people have issues that wont allow a man to ever hit a woman without it being seen as " He hit her due to her gender its sexist" instead of "He hit her because she was a problem to him and he'd have done the same if she was a man"
To the cindy issue, yeah she is this game's Quiet only probably not going to be used as much.
Oh believe me, when the game is out there will be words (whether on the sexism of the game or its misleadingly sexist marketing is yet to be seen). I just saw the new trailer with Luna getting pimp-slapped and my slowly-simmering anger at this game kind of boiled over into an angry post
Fair play, the slapping thing is such a fucking warning sign.
Is it easy to dismiss people's concerns if you put them all into a compartmentalized box that generally doesn't even speak to those concerns?
Nobody is saying she has to be an action girl to be taken seriously, we're not talking about that.
If your going to have females who are just there but otherwise serve no purpose, they still have to be written in a competent manner. Just because your story is not a female focused story doesn't mean your female characters are free to languish.
Even if Luna is getting the short end of the stick I do find the OP to be very narrowmminded because in the very same trailer Noctis is made to look weak and a punk far more than his previous trailers suggested.
In Luna's case she got into a situation she got out muscled and this is a woman prepared to step up against a Leviathan attacking the city. Noctis otoh is emasculated by multiple characters even though half the things he's reacting to is easily out of his control.
A lot of the people who worked on X-XIII are working on XV.
EIther they do and you simply don't like the creative choices they made or they don't and they fired everyone who made those other games great.
I really doubt the second scenario is at play here.
But the OP was referring to 15's issues, not to validate your personal problems with post FF6 games.
We might, i also say in that statement we should wait untill later. But while we don't get any shots of gladio, we do get shots of other hunky mc mullet face, nyx from the movie. And I dunno I think that might be reflective of the fanservce we might be getting in game. Also considering gladio is in your party, you can make those scenes, imma put money on beach outfits.
But this is speculative, because the game isn't out yet. I feel like we both might be jumping a bit of a gun.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
My main issue is with Cidney. I hate everything about her, especially her character design. Luna is a mix bag. Good character design, but the way Tabata describes her character and how she's portrayed in the trailers and Kingsglaive are all over the place, and some instances, looked like she's just going to be a Yuna wannabe.
yikes, touchy subject eh?
if you must know, 9 was my personal favorite of the series and i loved 7 & 12.
i picked 6 for it's emphasis on a female protagonist.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I mean they straight up painted over pictures of Tokyo and other real locations while creating the world. It's supposed to resemble contemporary Earth more so than any other FF game, hence all the real world brands and foods.
She does serve a purpose, her rescue seems to be one of the primary goals of the plot. She's probably little more than a MacGuffin that the main cast chases. It's not ideal writing but not everything has to be Shakespearean.
Vital Tundra
Member
Cindy is what I take issue with. From a female version of Cid, to not actually being the Cid of the game. She's really just there for eye candy and it's pathetic.
What did they do?
sensui-tomo
Member
nothing, oh and jump.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You mean that trilogy that had a game that the director feel they need to give Lightning bigger breast, and it was basically a dress up the doll game with plenty of skimpy oufits. Sure it was a new standard of feminism in gaming.
It's a character with zero personality and no agency, a tool for the male characters to get their objectives.
She even see herself as that, a tool for destiny and Noctis.
I'm just talking in general. If even if a story doesn't have female characters front and center as protagonists, dueteragonists, or major supporting characters, they still need to be written in a good way.
Sorry.
Its just annoying because it just seems like people constantly deflect from the here and now by acting like the franchise has always been this way. No, it has not. These are issues with 15 that we are trying to tackle specifically. FF13 trilogy had its own issues, but are largely separate from what we're talking about here
Rowleyfan3620
Member
Thank you, OP, for sharing your voice! I really appreciate your write-up. More importantly, I appreciate your courage. Thank you, thank you.
I'll echo what a lot of us have already said - that there is no way that we can adequately have this conversation without the game being out. However, I think your claims are valuable in a discussion about FFXV marketing, not the game itself. You do well to point out the sexism that is in the marketing, and I would argue that your claims are valid and strong.
That being said, though this is absolutely no excuse, let's remember this is a Japanese-developed game. The culture of sex in Japan plays by very different rules than the Western culture of sex (have you seen the jokes told in anime?!). Again, I can't emphasize enough that this is no excuse, nor am I justifying things. I just want to emphasize that for the sake of discussion. If we are going to properly understand FFXV's view of women, that conversation has to integrate the Japanese culture's view of women.
I'll echo what a lot of us have already said - that there is no way that we can adequately have this conversation without the game being out. However, I think your claims are valuable in a discussion about FFXV marketing, not the game itself. You do well to point out the sexism that is in the marketing, and I would argue that your claims are valid and strong.
That being said, though this is absolutely no excuse, let's remember this is a Japanese-developed game. The culture of sex in Japan plays by very different rules than the Western culture of sex (have you seen the jokes told in anime?!). Again, I can't emphasize enough that this is no excuse, nor am I justifying things. I just want to emphasize that for the sake of discussion. If we are going to properly understand FFXV's view of women, that conversation has to integrate the Japanese culture's view of women.
semiconscious
Member
it's weird the way that quiet & cindy basically serve the same purpose in these 2 monstrous, triple-a productions: completely focus all the fan service related bullshit on a single character, who is appropriately exaggerated to the max. it's almost like they're there to allow the rest of the game to just get on with it
...Iztok Mravlja
Banned
Yeah, I don't know what this says about me, but the main party is making me less interested in this game (I'm not a huge FF guy to begin with).
It just seems so homogenous. And I'm not even talking about gender/racial representation, they just don't look varied enough even in art style.
Personally, when given a chance I always play a character that's as distant to who/what I am in real life as possible (for the horde!).
SolidSnakex
Member
While there might not be a lot of lingering shots (at least not in pre-release materials), I do think the change in his design is notable. He started out like this
And ended up like this
They definitely made a rather blatant move toward fanservice with his design.
rochellepaws
Member
As a woman I've been a long time admirer of the Final Fantasy series and its strong representation of women, long before it was ever highlighted as an issue. I mean, they had a female protagonist in their lead series back in 94! Not to mention an all female cast in X-2 and generally provided many strong, impactful and non-sexualised female characters throughout the years such as Celes, Freya, Aerith or FFX's Yuna.
FFXV appears to focus predominantly on male relationships and that's wonderful, it's an interesting idea not often covered in rpgs. I'm excited to experience a boys trip and father/son relationships, it's something fresh and different to me. I understand their rationale for not including playable female characters. In terms of Luna and Cindy, they don't appeal to me as characters so far but I'll give them a chance. In terms of Cindy's design, my impression is that she's a lighthearted recurring character who isn't important to the plot and isn't supposed to be taken particularly seriously. Is her design ridiculous? Yes. Was the design of Brother, chocolina, O'aka XXIII etc any better or more representative of an actual person? Probably not. I think they were all just supposed to be kooky characters you meet on your journey that are meant to make you smile.
Above all I believe in the creator's freedom to tell the story they wish, if this story doesn't have many women in important roles then so be it. I think the series has a strong enough reputation to believe that the representation imbalance is specific to this story for creative reasons and not anything problematic.
FFXV appears to focus predominantly on male relationships and that's wonderful, it's an interesting idea not often covered in rpgs. I'm excited to experience a boys trip and father/son relationships, it's something fresh and different to me. I understand their rationale for not including playable female characters. In terms of Luna and Cindy, they don't appeal to me as characters so far but I'll give them a chance. In terms of Cindy's design, my impression is that she's a lighthearted recurring character who isn't important to the plot and isn't supposed to be taken particularly seriously. Is her design ridiculous? Yes. Was the design of Brother, chocolina, O'aka XXIII etc any better or more representative of an actual person? Probably not. I think they were all just supposed to be kooky characters you meet on your journey that are meant to make you smile.
Above all I believe in the creator's freedom to tell the story they wish, if this story doesn't have many women in important roles then so be it. I think the series has a strong enough reputation to believe that the representation imbalance is specific to this story for creative reasons and not anything problematic.
Don't forget rarely smiling, constantly punching men, and being a lesbian.
last one isn't a dig at homosexual representation, just that lately it's felt like a "requirement" for female protagonists.
Well ideally you want all of your characters well written, fleshed out, and somewhat integral to the plot. That said, Luna not being particularly expanded upon doesn't create a fundamental flaw in the story.
YianGaruga
Banned
I'm very open that I dislike the main party because I can't relate to any of them. Even in real life I find it eaiser to relate to women and play them in RPGs and choose them for the party whenever I can. This whole bro road trip does nothing for me.
Having anything playable other than dudes in black leather would do wonders for my excitement
As you said, its not an excuse, period. No point in even bringing it up. Infact, I've read and watched plenty of Japanese media that bucks the narrative of culture ingrained sexism. A good story with well portrayed characters male and female is universal.
Any story that has issues with this is a problem in of itself, and can't be explained away by a general culture.
The frustration from the slap comes from a long history of wanting to see more of Luna (and the other women) in a positive light. After several underwhelming demonstrations of her character, the team's constant reassurance she's a strong character, and then KINGSGLAIVEEE, it's deflating to see this is what they want to highlight in marketing. What we've seen of her (and we've seen plenty now thanks to Kingsglaive) does not paint her as a well written character with great internal or external strength.
Would that make you feel better?
Vincent Grayson
Member
It's weird to me that you think someone should lose their job over a dismissive comment. Sure, it was a dumb response, but that's it. There's no reason for it to be more than that.
"The male characters are power fantasies, not fanservice for females" is actually out of base on this one.
FF's audience in Japan actually skews female, and the characters are very much designed for that audience.
As OP says, it's the pattern. FF has a bad habit of skimpy outfits, but also a extremely good track record on deep, empowered female characters. The pattern isn't there.
FF's audience in Japan actually skews female, and the characters are very much designed for that audience.
As OP says, it's the pattern. FF has a bad habit of skimpy outfits, but also a extremely good track record on deep, empowered female characters. The pattern isn't there.
Flame Lord
Member
I honestly find it ridiculous how pissed of people seem to get about Cidney. For one the game isn't even out yet, and it always seems like she being judged nearly 100 percent on a her design besides anything else.
So right off the bat, when she was revealed years ago you already had a painted impression of her, even though all we had seen was from one scene in a trailer, years before release.
I don't think it makes sense to compare her to four people belonging to an organization with a clear uniform (anything, as long as it's black) and call that "the world." from the things we've seen people dress pretty refularly in this games world, and Cidney's outfit really isn't that ridiculous.
I'm assuming when you say uncomfortable you mean for a mechanic, because her clothes don't really look like they would be uncomfortable at all. And as far as her not wearing overalls, jn nearly every Final Fantasy game you have people running around either half naked, in light clothing, dresses etc. fighting monsters and gods, this would be because it's a video game. I find it weird that with all that shit it seems to blow people's mind that someone isn't wearing what they believe to be the designated uniform of whatever their mundane occupation is.
I see this argument a lot, and I don't get it. Are you saying that no female character, or even male character can ever show skin because it's not truly their choice to wear it?
Again, this seems like a pretty ridiculous claim to make before you have even played the game.
I find it really funny how often people (mostly here) often raise a ruckus about female characters showing skin. I often see people talk about wanting video games to be seen as an art form so they can talk to more people about them, and the these kind of characters make them embarrassed and I for the life of me can not figure out why. In nearly every art form you can imagine, there is sex. Movies, books, music, painting, it's all in there. So what is the problem with one side character out a whole cast show some skin? Do tits just nullify any good a game does period?
So right off the bat, when she was revealed years ago you already had a painted impression of her, even though all we had seen was from one scene in a trailer, years before release.
I don't think it makes sense to compare her to four people belonging to an organization with a clear uniform (anything, as long as it's black) and call that "the world." from the things we've seen people dress pretty refularly in this games world, and Cidney's outfit really isn't that ridiculous.
I'm assuming when you say uncomfortable you mean for a mechanic, because her clothes don't really look like they would be uncomfortable at all. And as far as her not wearing overalls, jn nearly every Final Fantasy game you have people running around either half naked, in light clothing, dresses etc. fighting monsters and gods, this would be because it's a video game. I find it weird that with all that shit it seems to blow people's mind that someone isn't wearing what they believe to be the designated uniform of whatever their mundane occupation is.
I see this argument a lot, and I don't get it. Are you saying that no female character, or even male character can ever show skin because it's not truly their choice to wear it?
Again, this seems like a pretty ridiculous claim to make before you have even played the game.
I find it really funny how often people (mostly here) often raise a ruckus about female characters showing skin. I often see people talk about wanting video games to be seen as an art form so they can talk to more people about them, and the these kind of characters make them embarrassed and I for the life of me can not figure out why. In nearly every art form you can imagine, there is sex. Movies, books, music, painting, it's all in there. So what is the problem with one side character out a whole cast show some skin? Do tits just nullify any good a game does period?
Hey real nice discussion point:
You know, you can get bitchslapped and shrug it of, clinch your teeth, look evil, talk back or something OR you can simply fall down with a moan:
You can say all you want about "we don't know if Stella was strong" "we don't know if Luna is weak", but the IMPRESSIONS we have are pretty clear about it and that's all we have to go by. THEY chose to show her that way, it's not that we just want to see it that way. And yes, you can be a powerful mage and still be weak-minded or frail. That's exactly what Luna seems to be from the footage, she is certainly powerful, but that doesn't automatically makes her "strong".
I'm sure in the final game she will be very important and powerful and maybe even strong, but I don't have that impression from the footage yet.
Of course it does. It does nothing except that. It's not that she get hit that makes her seem weak, it's the way she takes it.
You know, you can get bitchslapped and shrug it of, clinch your teeth, look evil, talk back or something OR you can simply fall down with a moan:
You can say all you want about "we don't know if Stella was strong" "we don't know if Luna is weak", but the IMPRESSIONS we have are pretty clear about it and that's all we have to go by. THEY chose to show her that way, it's not that we just want to see it that way. And yes, you can be a powerful mage and still be weak-minded or frail. That's exactly what Luna seems to be from the footage, she is certainly powerful, but that doesn't automatically makes her "strong".
I'm sure in the final game she will be very important and powerful and maybe even strong, but I don't have that impression from the footage yet.
I don't know about anyone else, but my issues with Cindy are not her design, but how she herself has been portrayed as a character, or non character in promotional media.
You would think after, I don't know, 16 years, some standards would have changed. Like maybe we can be better about race and gender and diversity in games?
The key difference is Gladio has a substantial part as a character of the main cast, and Nyx was the main character of his movie. Cidney has neither and the function of mechanic is actually served by her grandfather. Cidney as she is right now is characterized by her visual design and her pandering animations. There is no story or character there; it's clear she is merely an object to ogle.
I have no problem with characters showing skin. The question however is if the design is crafted for the character's personality or for pandering to the audience. In most cases with female character designs, it's a female character design made to appeal to men, with a disregard for whether or not such a design would appeal to women. You might ask "what's the problem with one side character showing some skin", but then you put it into the context of dozens and dozens of games who always has that "skimpily dressed huge boobs babe" character. And then maybe you can perhaps understand why Cidney and the 15 team deserves a lot of criticism.
If a game is good but reeks of racism and sexism, do you think that would be okay? That people should not criticize it and rightly be negative about those aspects, because "the game is good"? Yes, I dock points from a game because of blatant pandering to males, because I'm female! It's gross for a female character to be made just to service the male characters as a visual. If you want your game to sell huge numbers and have mass appeal, you better have mass appeal, which includes women!
I think it's probably because you haven't worn what Cidney is wearing that you can say that it doesn't look uncomfortable. You have another thing coming if you think it is that comfortable to wear a lot of the 'sexy' stuff that women wear.
For a game that bills itself as a 'fantasy based on reality' where the main cast is wearing real-world designed clothes, I think criticism of how uncomfortable or unrealistic Cidney's so-called 'mechanic outfit' is legitimate. "Past FF had all sorts of weird clothes" is a poor argument because none of those FF claim to be what 15 claims.
APZonerunner
Member
I'm concerned about it, but also there's so much of the game we haven't seen, so I'm more cautious than actually worried. If Luna gets fridged in an attempt to recreate the Aerith magic they've absolutely fucked it though.
Strength doesn't have to be physical, and Luna doesn't have to be fighting and screaming in anger or whatever, but I'd agree that appearances from the trailers and especially Kingsglaive don't bode well for her being a character with much agency. In Kingsglaive she is brave and shows strength, but she draws all her strength from the fact that there's fated shit going on and what will be will be, it is all predetermined, etc etc. The interesting this is that this is the place Yuna, a fantastic female lead, comes from - but she takes a journey elsewhere throughout the game and seizes control of her own destiny with the help of her friends rather than has it directed by the gods. Lightning, of course -- her whole thing was screw the gods, screw destiny, I will fight and do what I want. So Luna's steadfast belief in Kingsglaive does raise a question - will she eventually kick back, or is her role simply to fulfil prophecy and boost Noctis?
Strength doesn't have to be physical, and Luna doesn't have to be fighting and screaming in anger or whatever, but I'd agree that appearances from the trailers and especially Kingsglaive don't bode well for her being a character with much agency. In Kingsglaive she is brave and shows strength, but she draws all her strength from the fact that there's fated shit going on and what will be will be, it is all predetermined, etc etc. The interesting this is that this is the place Yuna, a fantastic female lead, comes from - but she takes a journey elsewhere throughout the game and seizes control of her own destiny with the help of her friends rather than has it directed by the gods. Lightning, of course -- her whole thing was screw the gods, screw destiny, I will fight and do what I want. So Luna's steadfast belief in Kingsglaive does raise a question - will she eventually kick back, or is her role simply to fulfil prophecy and boost Noctis?
Entertaining read, OP. Subbed.
Please understand, he's one of those.
Damsel in distress sure is "not ideal".
News flash, sexism in the west is also cultural. "It's their culture" is basically saying that they're sexist as fuck.
Because "sex" at your workplace is stupid?
Zombegoast
Member
And isn't Stand By Me part of the soundtrack?
Type-0 had a nice range of female characters actually...that's why i am concerned with the ones in this game... It had a badass mother who was the most capable soldier in a kingdom ruled by a completely matriarchal society whose first king in history was a helpless spoiled crybaby, she
actually lost her son but held strong as she knew he was a soldier and was just doing his duty, and she could turn into a dragon,
I really like lady setsuna, though her screentime was short she looked like a far better summoner than Luna because she had a strong presence, and mother arecia was
the real mastermind of that game
I think the topic is a nice and fair read, though i don't think the clothing in ff12 was a good idea at all, even if the characters there are strong, but i get the point, they have enough presence so that what they were wearing gets forgotten. looking forward to iris' part, but overall good job girl, as the game is getting closer to launch we might be able to look back and see if it's a disaster or not, i'm actually concerned right now too.
Pretty offtopic but OP mentioned a game of thrones critic... I really recommend you read A song of ice and fire if you haven't yet, because it's a tragic case where an awesome series of novels with a wide range of capable and strong female characters got butchered by a tv adaptation where the directors did not understand GRRMs female characters at all. though the series keeps most of the original characters there it adds some really unnecessary sexism that is there because the showrunners are doesn't have the same sensibility as the original author, i don't consider the book series sexist, it talks about a lot of women dealing with an sexist society in a way that most novels today do not even try to do: they fight it, they struggle with it, and in some parts of that universe there are places with equal rights that the series just ignores and change for the sake of simplification (looking at you, dorne) i'm not saying that the book is perfect, but the series is awful and does not get the things the author did right, his female characters are mostly awesome and well written :/
Its like a stella vs luna thing, but ten times worse
Well her design is just real bad and stupid, then. FF XV is "a fantasy based on reality", so of course most of us expect the characters to behave and dress realistically.
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