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[DC1]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

Thank you... Its good to know that I'm not the only one that does this and/or measure my response; ensuring that I don't offend a genuine consumer that enjoys MS as a brand and the XBox One regardless of the associated consumer restrictions.

I recently caught my self this morning... and then had to make it right through an edit.

 

[luxsol]

This was 2004, 2005. They're doubtlessly still at it, and doubtless EA, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Activision, etc., have their plants still at it, as well.

Hahahah viral marketing as a career?
That'd be a sweet job if it paid enough to keep someone at it for close to a decade.

 

[plagiarize]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

I take people at face value and I've never felt like I was wasting my time. That's just me personally though. If you start second guessing everyone... man... that's no way to post on NeoGAF. Don't forget, if someone IS astroturfing they're trying to control the discussion. A long well thought out retort isn't wasted, because the astroturfer isn't going after you or me, they're going after the people reading the thread and trying to sway their opinion.

making good arguments against a shill's points, is still an effective counter to the shill's tactics.

so I encourage you to keep on doing what you were doing. it isn't pointless.

 

[Punkster_NY]

oops nm already posted.

 

[Sentenza]

I've been astroturfing here for years.

(On behalf of Clint Hocking's Far Cry 2, of course.)

You should be ashamed of yourself, as I was ashamed of buying that game.

 

[kswiston]

It's not the paid shills that worry me, it's the unacknowledged volunteers that weird me out.

Ya, but those people are part of the GAF experience. I remember a poster (whose handle I now forget) who came in a Media-Create thread in 2007 or 2008 and talked about how his heart was swelling with pride and tears were coming to his eyes when he thought about how much "this little company from Japan" (Nintendo) had accomplished in the last few years.

Only on GAF.


When I argue with people on GAF, or any other public forum, I assume that there is maybe a 1% chance that I will ever change their mind, regardless of how good and well backed up my argument is. Instead, my argument is for the people reading the post who are on the fence. Going in with this mindset means that your argument can be useful even if you are arguing against paid shills.

I will admit that I am not the most knowledgeable guy on the forum when it comes to consumer electronics tech. I know a little bit, but when someone argues with the right lingo, I can't tell for sure if they are BS'ing or not. At best, I will have a suspicion that what is being said does't seem right. Plenty of times in the past I have had a knowledgeable poster like Durante (whose words I trust) refute these posts, confirming my suspicion and allowing me to discard the FUD. As such, I hope Durante and people like him continue to post and think of the people reading the thread instead of the the shills whose minds cannot be changed.

Remember that for every person posting in a thread, 40-200 people are reading the thread. Informative posts can teach a lot of people, even if the person you are arguing with refuses to listen.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I take people at face value and I've never felt like I was wasting my time. That's just me personally though. If you start second guessing everyone... man... that's no way to post on NeoGAF. Don't forget, if someone IS astroturfing they're trying to control the discussion. A long well thought out retort isn't wasted, because the astroturfer isn't going after you or me, they're going after the people reading the thread and trying to sway their opinion.

making good arguments against a shill's points, is still an effective counter to the shill's tactics.

so I encourage you to keep on doing what you were doing. it isn't pointless.

Exactly.

Although this can be exploited by a rival company shill posing as a different company shill but being blatantly obvious about it.

It's a huge mess, eh?

 

[videogamephilosopher]

This type of behavior should be illegal for corporations to participate in. The ethical ramifications are huge. It's not just the overbearing enthusiasm for their particular brand that is bothersome. but the dismissive/negative rebuttals on valid points and smearing of noteworthy features and benefits of competitors. In my opinion marketing works best when you let your product speak for itself and let an honest community cultivate around your product. The last few weeks have made me aware how prevalent this practce actually is.

 

[mbmonk]

instead of calling another gaffer a shill, couldn't non admin gaffers just compile a post history, like Durante did and then pm a mod with that history? that way people wouldn't be called shills in the threads and thus killing discussion. I am just spitballing here.

 

[Usobuko]

This type of behavior should be illegal for corporations to participate in. The ethical ramifications are huge. It's not just the overbearing enthusiasm for their particular brand that is bothersome. but the dismissive/negative rebuttals on valid points and smearing of noteworthy features and benefits of competitors. In my opinion marketing works best when you let your product speak for itself and let an honest community cultivate around your product. The last few weeks have made me aware how prevalent this practce actually is.

I let you know one of the mantra of a high flying marketing consultant said to me.

You don't stop at selling yourself, you reposition your competitors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=KfmBzllkbUM&gl=SG

 

[vazel]

Some of you are letting this get to you too much. So now every fanboy is a shill now? Some of you must be relatively new to internet discussion mediums because that kind of fanboy slobbering crap has always existed.

 

[Jotamide]

While OP presents a lot of info on MSFT, I'm sure everyone does this.

Yeah. Despite finding Kaz Hirai gifs hilarious, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple Sony employees contributed plenty of those to random threads.

 

[Neo C.]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
  [*]Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

Honestly, I don't care about the bolded one. Whether it's a viral marketer or a rampant fanboy: If someone trolls, he should expect a ban. If a fanboy just splurges bs like a paid troll and doesn't change his stance when proven wrong or moves the goalpost several times, he should expect a ban.
i don't care who defends the Xbone, just don't use the same argument over and over, and don't defend the indefensable.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I don't think I've been able to handle recent Xbone DRM and rumoured Sony DRM threads getting mysteriously bumped this past week without this intense feeling of absolute disgust. Astroturfing is just so so so so soooo low.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

I wonder if two competing viral marketers have ever battled it out on GAF before, not knowing the other was working for the enemy. I'm guessing, yes.

It'd be like the two robots in the Geno Dome from Chrono Trigger, where you have to get them to lock gaze with each other so you can grab the Poyozo doll behind them.

 

[Resilient]

Some of you are letting this get to you too much. So now every fanboy is a shill now? Some of you must be relatively new to internet discussion mediums because that kind of fanboy slobbering crap has always existed.

Fanboy doesn't equal shill. Shill equals shill. Someone paid to be a fanboy. Whereas a fanboy chooses his fate of his own free will.

 

[Usobuko]

I'm starting to wonder how many of those there really are. Posters like Deadly Cyclone are a lot friendlier to Xbone than your average gaffer but its more a bit of bewilderment over the rage. It's light years away from the shills that have been rooted out. Do crazy pro-MS WE RIDE TOGETHER WE DIE TOGETHER exist without a bi-weekly direct deposit from Redmond?

He isn't one. Shills won't have 290+ games on his xblgamertag, it takes too much efforts. It can just be his own personal opinion since in reality these restrictions may not truly bother him and there's likely some upsides he is looking forward to in Xbox One. He could also simply prefer the Xbox platform or he could be reserving his judgement until Sony reveal their cards.

I think there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Demon Ice]

OOOOH, I get it. Fake grassroots = Astroturfing.

Holy shit. Thank you. I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what online shills had to do with AstroTurf

 

[Shinta]

OOOOH, I get it. Fake grassroots = Astroturfing.

You must be able to beat all the Professor Layton puzzles without cheating.

I too had no idea what that had to do with shills.

 

[Retro]

I must confess; I've been hanging out in NFL threads for years trying to start a fake grassroots campaign for the wider adoption of artificial grass in their stadiums.

Seriously though; anybody who uses more than one exclamation point is obviously a shill.

 

[vazel]

Fanboy doesn't equal shill. Shill equals shill. Someone paid to be a fanboy. Whereas a fanboy chooses his fate of his own free will.

But look at durante's post. He looks through people's post history for repetitive fanboy arguments that make him 'almost certain they are being paid for it'. It's like some of you have never been on an internet forum/chatroom/newsgroup before GAF. Repetitive and outrageous fanboy crap has always existed.

 

[Narcosis]

Just want to say to the people who I've read who feel that their posts are being wasted on shills, don't look at it that way.

Whether the person you're arguing with is a paid entity or just an extremely dedicated and biased fan, you were obviously not going to change their mind, but there is an audience outside of the debate reading it. If you have a good point to make to dispel bullshit go forth, even if the person you're responding to is incapable of admitting defeat or changing their position you will be getting your points across to the readership at large.

It's important to remember alot of people read these forums because it's ahead of the curve in regards to information. Arguments stand and fall regardless of who says it, and if someone comes in from an advertising and marketing agency acting on behalf of some corporate interest I understand and feel the disgust just as much as you, but their arguments and posts will be shit and calling them out and exposing it, even one post at a time, will make a huge difference on one of the most widely read and cited videogaming sites on the internet.

 

[LQX]

As much as fucking hate the news from and about MS/XB1 as of late I see this more of problem with Sony and Nintendo. Even before the XB1, it was "in" to shit on XBox 360 meanwhile Sony and Nintendo could take a literal shit on you and some would jump into the shit with you and encourage you to spread it liberally all over your face and body. Make sure you get it into your mouth.

Who doesn't remember the almost a daily occurrence of threads popping-up asking what are the best Sony exclusives. Once, twice, thrice....okay, many of you are clueless but the frequency of those threads made it fucking clear there was something at play. Like, how the fuck are you on NeoGaf of all sites and so clueless about games like Uncharted, Little Big Planet and Killzone(which even had .gif in every thread to remind how awesome it was)?

So yeah, I think Sony/Nintendo got a lot of pass around here while MS almost never does. Even Steam gets some massive shilling around here.

 

[Shinta]

Shutting down bad arguments is never a waste.

Look at it like this. Posting can be so powerful in shaping public perception that Microsoft is paying people to do it. That means that your post matters to the point that they feel threatened.

If anything, the shilling kinda confirms that posting is not pointless.

 

[PSYGN]

Astroturf sounds like some futuristic hoverboard game set in space. One of those cases where a word sounds so cool and yet means something uncool.

 

[Daedardus]

It is kind of a problem for me.

Personally, I find it a great thing that everyone can have a different opinion. Even if they don't agree with you, they can still provide valuable hindsights. However, the only time these opinions matter is when they are legit opinions. If these opinions are actually paid, they lose their worth and become nothing more than fuel for flaming. When you have counter shills, you essentially can get into an inferno of a thread, making you avoid going into all sorts of thread.

I'm not visiting GAF much around these days because of all the flaming that just becomes depressing. The negativity itself is not depressing, but the same thing getting repeated over and over again, without the conversation moving forward and people eventually calling out each other is.

Have there been details regarding how they look for someone to ban? It would be sad a legit junior gets banned just because he has an opinion of his own. Maybe bishoptl needs to do a post after all, if he hasn't already.

 

[kitsuneyo]

Andrex had a small list yesterday:

I assume the mods used more evidence than these posts to determine that these people were marketers. Like their email domains or whatever. Because reading the posts, I'd say it's inconclusive. They may just have been idiots or loveblind Xbox fans.

Edit - then again those could be grounds for banning as well I suppose

 

[sakipon]

So yeah, I think Sony/Nintendo got a lot of pass around here while MS almost never does. Even Steam gets some massive shilling around here.

I strongly disagree with Nintendo getting any kind of a break on GAF with their kiddie games, underpowered systems and the negatively viewed decisions on digital sales and online messaging etc etc.

For Sony it's a bit more difficult to say.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

Yeah, I totally agree here. The thing that bothers me the most about all of this is posting thoughtfully (taking up time and analytical capacity, too) for the sake of discussion, and yet it only falls upon a shill whose agenda is detached from the sake of discussion.

If in fact the response falls upon a shill, it's likely to be met with a flippant rebuttal or ulterior conclusion of sorts that discourage further, actual discussion. I saw this kind of thing during the FFXIV 1.0 launch a few years back and it made the thread unbearable :/

 

[something fishy]

just ms and square?

try them and several others.

 

[Pie and Beans]

As much as fucking hate the news from and about MS/XB1 as of late I see this more of problem with Sony and Nintendo. Even before the XB1, it was "in" to shit on XBox 360 meanwhile Sony and Nintendo could take a literal shit on you and some would jump into the shit with you and encourage you to spread it liberally all over your face and body. Make sure you get it into your mouth.

Who doesn't remember the almost a daily occurrence of threads popping-up asking what are the best Sony exclusives. Once, twice, thrice....okay, many of you are clueless but the frequency of those threads made it fucking clear there was something at play. Like, how the fuck are you on NeoGaf of all sites and so clueless about games like Uncharted, Little Big Planet and Killzone(which even had .gif in every thread to remind how awesome it was)?

So yeah, I think Sony/Nintendo got a lot of pass around here while MS almost never does. Even Steam gets some massive shilling around here.

This is because MS changed focus and really hasnt been bringing the game noise anyway near enough in past years. Totting up the X360 exclusive (that means no PC) to PS3 and even WiiU is a pretty depressing sign, and post-Kinect thats a track theyve been locked on for at least two E3's.

As Live became more and more of a rip off, the well began to unsurprisingly fill with toxins. Maybe MS will bring the noise at E3, but something about it all just feels far more ultra cynical, especially after we watched MS slash and burn their first parties post 360 launch too.

 

[Shinta]

It is kind of a problem for me.

Personally, I find it a great thing that everyone can have a different opinion. Even if they don't agree with you, they can still provide valuable hindsights. However, the only time these opinions matter is when they are legit opinions. If these opinions are actually paid, they lose their worth and become nothing more than fuel for flaming. When you have counter shills, you essentially can get into an inferno of a thread, making you avoid going into all sorts of thread.

Replace shill with "troll" and it's honestly not all that different.

As a FFXIII fan, I honestly feel like I've been dealing with shills for 4 years.

There are tons of people who comment on GAF that make it their mission to try and basically destroy SQEX's reputation in every single thread, to the point that it literally looks like it's their job. Most people come into Final Fantasy threads just to troll and derail conversation, and honestly, it pretty much destroys the threads.

They're not paid (I'm pretty sure), but it is their full time job to hate that game, and the result is just as destructive - whether or not money is changing hands.

It's pretty easy to spot and I hope the mods shut down thread-destroying conversations more actively in the future; paid or otherwise.

 

[Sblargh]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

You are one of my favorite people, Durante.
Keep on keeping on, GAF is an even better place because of you.

Another problem (or solution?) is that, if you really like something, you'll feel the need to downplay it a bit because of this.
Like, I enjoyed all the Eidos games this generation (Hitman, Tomb Raider and Sleeping Dogs), and I'm kind of alone in enjoying Hitman, so if someone pops up and say they think the series should end because absolution is terrible, I'll have to go and praise the game, because I like it. But Squeenix is a publisher who astroturf apparently. So approaching the topic becomes less natural than it is.

It's not like I'm not paranoid about stuff without having reason to.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

As much as fucking hate the news from and about MS/XB1 as of late I see this more of problem with Sony and Nintendo. Even before the XB1, it was "in" to shit on XBox 360 meanwhile Sony and Nintendo could take a literal shit on you and some would jump into the shit with you and encourage you to spread it liberally all over your face and body. Make sure you get it into your mouth.

Who doesn't remember the almost a daily occurrence of threads popping-up asking what are the best Sony exclusives. Once, twice, thrice....okay, many of you are clueless but the frequency of those threads made it fucking clear there was something at play. Like, how the fuck are you on NeoGaf of all sites and so clueless about games like Uncharted, Little Big Planet and Killzone(which even had .gif in every thread to remind how awesome it was)?

So yeah, I think Sony/Nintendo got a lot of pass around here while MS almost never does. Even Steam gets some massive shilling around here.

Actually, I get that feeling every time I see yet another PSN+ worship thread or any official topic for a big game that seems to be so professionally crafted and, if I wasn't told differently, I'd assume it was an extension of a game publisher's official pre-order campaign. I love that lately, I've been told I was shill for MS/publishers when I don't share the same exaggerated sense of righteous indignation that an online consumer rights-crusader does. I'm too fucking cynical and have too bleak of an outlook on all corporations (especially those already large and wealthy ones (Sony, MS) that directly entered the console game industry for a new avenue for profit) to give too much of a fuck about it. Let the young and energetic do the frontline fighting while I enjoy all of the games regardless of platform and policy.

 

[Shinta]

You are one of my favorite people, Durante.
Keep on keeping on, GAF is an even better place because of you.

Another problem (or solution?) is that, if you really like something, you'll feel the need to downplay it a bit because of this.
Like, I enjoyed all the Eidos games this generation (Hitman, Tomb Raider and Sleeping Dogs), and I'm kind of alone in enjoying Hitman, so if someone pops up and say they think the series should end because absolution is terrible, I'll have to go and praise the game, because I like it. But Squeenix is a publisher who astroturf apparently. So approaching the topic becomes less natural than it is.

It's not like I'm not paranoid about stuff without having reason to.

I guess I missed the part where SQEX astroturfs? If they do, they are apparently the worst astroturfer of all time.

All I see is near ubiquitous negativity in literally any thread about them. I honestly thought for a long time that some rival RPG maker was paying for SQEX-hate astroturfing; like Bioware or Bethesda when this gen started and the west started to really push into console gaming.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I'm seeing the damage.

If you think someone is a shill, why shit up threads arguing with them? Why are you arguing with a stooge? Report them to a mod and put them on ignore or something.

 

[Snubbers]

Replace shill with "troll" and it's honestly not all that different.

They're not paid (I'm pretty sure), but it is their full time job to hate that game, and the result is just as destructive - whether or not money is changing hands.

It's pretty easy to spot and I hope the mods shut down thread-destroying conversations more actively in the future; paid or otherwise.

That's pretty much what I'm seeing on here..

The first 2 pages are an MS shit-on-o-thon.. It needs discussing, but it needs some order brought in..

I feel like there are some real anti-MS diehards who are revelling in having what they see as a legitimate outlet to vent their vitriol.. It ain't healthy.

 

[frankie_baby]

I'm a member of another forum and they used to have a punishment designated only for the very worst of posters, it was called Hellbanning. Essentially the user would be given no notification of their punishment but silently all their posts would become invisible to other users. They would be posting unknowingly into the ether from there on, oblivious of their prison cell.

For astroturfers I can think of nothing more appropriate.

That is a fantastic idea

 

[Daedardus]

Replace shill with "troll" and it's honestly not all that different.

As a FFXIII fan, I honestly feel like I've been dealing with shills for 4 years.

There are tons of people who comment on GAF that make it their mission to try and basically destroy SQEX's reputation in every single thread, to the point that it literally looks like it's their job. Most people come into Final Fantasy threads just to troll and derail conversation, and honestly, it pretty much destroys the threads.

They're not paid (I'm pretty sure), but it is their full time job to hate that game, and the result is just as destructive - whether or not money is changing hands.

It's pretty easy to spot and I hope the mods shut down thread-destroying conversations more actively in the future; paid or otherwise.

I agree that shill or intelligent trolls are actually same and both should be punished accordingly. However, the difference between them is that you need to decide for yourself to troll and devote your precious time to it. I don't like particular genres myself either, and sometimes want to have a constructive discussion about them. I don't have unlimited time however. I have to study, cook some food, and all other life stuff. Shills however, are getting paid for their job, and the more they do it, the more they earn. A company that is willing to spend lots of money can essentially hire as many shills as they want, whereas there is a certain limit on the amount of actual trolls in a thread.

That's why I believe shilling is worse practice than trolling. A thread can get clogged up with lots shills pretty fast. If a thread just gets attacked by trolls, you'll see only around five people repeating the same over and over again. This lets you see more easily that the discussion has been stuck for ages, and you can easily dismiss those opinions if you want. If fifty different people however are all rallying for the same cause, it let's you believe they all do have a worthy opinion, making the marketing plot effective.

 

[Sblargh]

I guess I missed the part where SQEX astroturfs? If they do, they are apparently the worst astroturfer of all time.

All I see is near ubiquitous negativity in literally any thread about them. I honestly thought for a long time that some rival RPG maker was paying for SQEX-hate astroturfing; like Bioware or Bethesda when this gen started and the west started to really push into console gaming.

Except for me. I'm always like "Yeah! Sequels! Loved Tomb Raider! Woohoo!"

See the problem?

 

[Shinta]

I agree that shill or intelligent trolls are actually same and both should be punished accordingly. However, the difference between them is that you need to decide for yoursel to troll and devote your precious time to it. I don't like particular genres myself either, and sometimes want to have a constructive discussion about them. I don't have unlimited time however. I have to study, cook some food, and all other life stuff. Shills however, are getting paid for their job, and the more they do it, the more they earn. A company that is willing to spend lots of money can essentially hire as many shills as they want, whereas their is a certain limit on the amount of actual trolls in a thread.

That's why I believe shilling is worse practice than trolling. A thread can get clogged up with lots shills pretty fast. If a thread just gets attacked by trolls, you'll see only around five people repeating the same over and over again. This lets you see more easily that the discussion has been stuck for ages, and you can easily dismiss those opinions if you want. If fifty different people however are all rallying for the same cause, it let's you believe they all do have a worthy opinion, making the marketing plot effective.

You make some good points. I'm convinced.

 

[toastyToast]

I'm a member of another forum and they used to have a punishment designated only for the very worst of posters, it was called Hellbanning. Essentially the user would be given no notification of their punishment but silently all their posts would become invisible to other users. They would be posting unknowingly into the ether from there on, oblivious of their prison cell.

For astroturfers I can think of nothing more appropriate.

That sounds pretty crazy

Sometimes when I go a long stretches without being quoted I kind of feel that way lol

 

[vazel]

This thread is getting ludicrous.

Replace shill with "troll" and it's honestly not all that different.

As a FFXIII fan, I honestly feel like I've been dealing with shills for 4 years.

There are tons of people who comment on GAF that make it their mission to try and basically destroy SQEX's reputation in every single thread, to the point that it literally looks like it's their job. Most people come into Final Fantasy threads just to troll and derail conversation, and honestly, it pretty much destroys the threads.

They're not paid (I'm pretty sure), but it is their full time job to hate that game, and the result is just as destructive - whether or not money is changing hands.

It's pretty easy to spot and I hope the mods shut down thread-destroying conversations more actively in the future; paid or otherwise.

Final Fantasy has a high pedigree. It's a franchise many of us have been playing since childhood and have a high esteem of. It should be no great surprise that many feel passionate dislike for an entry that is generally seen by longtime fans as not living up to the quality of previous entries.

 

[billsmugs]

I'm a member of another forum and they used to have a punishment designated only for the very worst of posters, it was called Hellbanning. Essentially the user would be given no notification of their punishment but silently all their posts would become invisible to other users. They would be posting unknowingly into the ether from there on, oblivious of their prison cell.

For astroturfers I can think of nothing more appropriate.

This would be excellent, assuming it's possible on GAF's forum system. It would be best if all confirmed astroturfers could see the hidden posts, to help reduce the speed at which they find out through their other accounts that no-one else can see what their typing.

Spoiler

Maybe it already happens in secret?

As a Junior Member (although not one that would be caught dead praising the Xbox One policies, so it isn't so much of a worry for me), I think the biggest issue with these practises is how unwelcoming it risks making the forum for new posters. Juniors have always been looked down on a little as far as I can tell (though the mods do get involved in major cases), but now any new sign up is automatically viewed with deep suspicion over whether or not they're being paid to post, which can't be good for the health of the forum. Hopefully it will die down a bit after E3, but if the Xbox One falters at retail I can see things flaring up again.

The other downside is that if people see a load of pro-MS posters being banned, while Sony fans are left unscathed, it could lead to GAF being seen as a home for Sony fanboys and lead to tons of dreadful Gamefaqs style console warriors signing up (which in turn makes all the reasonable Sony fans look bad and helps Microsoft's cause even further).

 

[HK-47]

Replace shill with "troll" and it's honestly not all that different.

As a FFXIII fan, I honestly feel like I've been dealing with shills for 4 years.

There are tons of people who comment on GAF that make it their mission to try and basically destroy SQEX's reputation in every single thread, to the point that it literally looks like it's their job. Most people come into Final Fantasy threads just to troll and derail conversation, and honestly, it pretty much destroys the threads.

They're not paid (I'm pretty sure), but it is their full time job to hate that game, and the result is just as destructive - whether or not money is changing hands.

It's pretty easy to spot and I hope the mods shut down thread-destroying conversations more actively in the future; paid or otherwise.

Dont worry. Its not cause of rival companies shilling. Its just cause the entire FFXIII series is truly a piece of hilariously mismanaged shit. When you repeatedly screw up (FFXIII, FFXIV, Versus dev time, lack of KH3, ridiculous sale expectations of western brands, dilution of the FF brand in the mid aughts due too releasing to many spinoffs and remakes) you are going to create a negative atmosphere.

Plus WRPG and JRPG companies dont seem to interested in each other.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

I'm a member of another forum and they used to have a punishment designated only for the very worst of posters, it was called Hellbanning. Essentially the user would be given no notification of their punishment but silently all their posts would become invisible to other users. They would be posting unknowingly into the ether from there on, oblivious of their prison cell.

For astroturfers I can think of nothing more appropriate.

This would be amazing, but I believe NeoGAF's backend would need significant reworking.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

That is a fantastic idea

They tried that once with a notorious user. He figured it out and posted...things. He was eventually banned, but the designation changed and his posts became visible and...

 

[Retro]

The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

A sophisticated, corporate-sponsored astro-turfing campaign versus the stubborn, opinionated masses of NeoGAF?

I almost feel sorry for anyone who tries. Might as well flush that money down the toilet.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I'm seeing the damage.

If you think someone is a shill, why shit up threads arguing with them? Why are you arguing with a stooge? Report them to a mod and put them on ignore or something.

This is the best advice. The ignore button is there for a reason.

 

[Durante]

I take people at face value and I've never felt like I was wasting my time. That's just me personally though. If you start second guessing everyone... man... that's no way to post on NeoGAF. Don't forget, if someone IS astroturfing they're trying to control the discussion. A long well thought out retort isn't wasted, because the astroturfer isn't going after you or me, they're going after the people reading the thread and trying to sway their opinion.

making good arguments against a shill's points, is still an effective counter to the shill's tactics.

so I encourage you to keep on doing what you were doing. it isn't pointless.

I generally agree with what you are saying. The real issue is if any particular pseudo-argument becomes so omnipresent that repetitive discussion of it is starting to clog up lots of tangentially (or not at all) related threads. But now that I think about it, that's more like a traditional moderation issue at that point, and we should trust the mods to handle that.

Ya, but those people are part of the GAF experience. I remember a poster (whose handle I now forget) who came in a Media-Create thread in 2007 or 2008 and talked about how his heart was swelling with pride and tears were coming to his eyes when he thought about how much "this little company from Japan" (Nintendo) had accomplished in the last few years.

Ha, I actually remember that. I used to get somewhat annoyed at posters like that, but this past week actually had me wish for genuine fanboys at times. I'd much rather deal with those than astroturfing. And as you say, they are part of the GAF experience.

Really, at this point, I'm more calm about it than a few days ago, as I am certain now that GAF won't easily succumb to shilling.