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[George Claw M.D.]

He compiled a list of like twenty outrageous shill posts somebody made in a thread. And when they were all gathered in one place, it was hilarious to read. Bish banned the poster till after e3. Durante simply gathered all the quotes into a central location.

I remember that thread. I was one of the ones who called that dude/gal out. It was the most obvious astroturfing in recent times. Penguins&PolarBears was the Gaffer's handle. 90% of that poster's posts were defending Microsoft in MS-related threads and they read like they came straight from a Microsoft door-2-door salesman; no normal person talks like that. His/her posts can be found easily enough. That person was horrible at his/her job.

 

[Proven]

You know, as a counter point to the question in the thread title, why would Microsoft care?

As long as there are people and the internet, message boards will exist. People will want to talk about games. If you can dominate the conversation, then gamers with dissenting opinions won't be able to gather. They'll be isolated. And then they'll be more susceptible to misinformation from the rest of the internet.

It's technically in Microsoft's favor if NeoGAF doesn't exist. Then they can get you to post on the their official Xbox forums or even the IGN forums where there are more people receptive of their message ready and waiting to converse with you.

 

[Sera O]

I remember that thread. I was one of the ones who called that dude/gal out. It was the most obvious astroturfing in recent times. Penguins&PolarBears was the Gaffer's handle. 90% of that poster's posts were defending Microsoft in MS-related threads and they read like they came straight from a Microsoft door-2-door salesman; no normal person talks like that. His/her posts can be found easily enough. That person was horrible at his/her job.

Ohhh, I remember that person from the Adam Orth thread. It really was immediately obvious what was going on there.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

You know, as a counter point to the question in the thread title, why would Microsoft care?

You can't stop the signal. They probably know that no matter what they do, independent communities will spring up. And more importantly, a community of this size does have an impact - however negligible - on people's purchases.

They send plants to sites like this to try and "massage the message". They may not be able to stop it completely, but you can be damn well sure MS, Sony, Nintendo and everyone else are trying to manipulate whatever they can.

 

[CTLance]

Nothing new, really. I think we've had several "anonymous confession" threads in the OT where some poor PR mouthpieces just couldn't take it anymore and admitted to their tomfoolery. Makes you sick to the core when you realize just how much money is pumped into crap like that instead of into things that actually matter for gamers. Or that you could get paid for posting on GAF instead of having to sneak this stuff past your boss/wifey/etc.

Sigh.

 

[Deified Data]

Plants. Stealth marketers. Astroturfers. Whatever you want to call them, they were most likely promoting a toxic agenda because they were paid to do so.

I haven't noticed any of these people. I suppose I steer clear of threads where they frequent, which is probably for the best.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I haven't noticed any of these people. I suppose I steer clear of threads where they frequent, which is probably for the best.

The scary part is - you may not notice them, but they're there. The ones you notice are the ones who aren't good at their jobs.

 

[Deified Data]

I remember that thread. I was one of the ones who called that dude/gal out. It was the most obvious astroturfing in recent times. Penguins&PolarBears was the Gaffer's handle. 90% of that poster's posts were defending Microsoft in MS-related threads and they read like they came straight from a Microsoft door-2-door salesman; no normal person talks like that. His/her posts can be found easily enough. That person was horrible at his/her job.

Goddamn, you're not kidding...

As far as I know the live TV stuff demonstrated for Xbox One doesn't require an Xbox Live subscription. So I see many of the 1 billion pay TV subscribers in the world wanting to have that incredible voice and gesture functionality of Xbox One.

Now the Xbox TV (XTV) service is a different matter. That is a paid service where you'll probably find exclusive content like the Halo TV show and exclusive content from Dreamworks and Paramount.

 

[Eric C]

Nothing new, really. I think we've had several "anonymous confession" threads in the OT where some poor PR mouthpieces just couldn't take it anymore and admitted to their tomfoolery. Makes you sick to the core when you realize just how much money is pumped into crap like that instead of into things that actually matter for gamers. Or that you could get paid for posting on GAF instead of having to sneak this stuff past your boss/wifey/etc.

Sigh.

Yeah, now that you mention it I do remember reading in some of the anonymous confession threads, a few admitting to being a paid marketing shills and feeling guilty about it.

 

[Mudkips]

I say ban them, tag them, and give them a garish avatar calling them out as shills.
Name and shame the company and marketing firm as well if it's known.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

I say ban them, tag them, and give them a garish avatar calling them out as shills.
Name and shame the company and marketing firm as well if it's known.

I agree with this point especially. It's in consumers' interest to know that this sort of thing is real and ongoing, and make them more skeptical of what they read.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

I just want everybody to know that there are two sides to every bowl of Kellogg’s Frosted Flakes.

Explore both sides and see what makes each bite so awesome!



On topic, I like this one from over in the WSJ comments section.

"Sigh….people just don’t like change – i get it. But this time next year all the pre-release whining will be long forgotten and the Xbox-One will be a mainstay in the majority of living rooms across the world. Why? Simple – let us not forget that above all Microsoft makes the most cutting edge gaming hardware (uh, wii-u anyone? lol) and once people experience the jaw-dropping graphics and audio fidelity on games that are ONLY available on Xbox (Halo, Forza, Fantasia, Madden and COD) everything else from the competitors will feel like Sega Genesis quality. Also, the TV integration is a killer. Every household watches TV and being able to control my set with vocal commands or high fidelity motion gesture controls is something straight out of Minority Report. Welcome to the future. Get on or get off."

 

[The Lamp]

Where is the line you draw between being an enthusiast with (sometimes strong) opinions and an astroturfer?

There are a lot of posters here with strong Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft/Whatever leanings but its all genuine, however awkward and infuriating it may be. How can you moderate a forum without it turning into a witch hunt? /v/, for example, is nothing but people calling other people "viral" posters, which just devolves into trash and namecalling.

Just a genuine question.

The mods can see email addresses. A lot of them are apparently social agency email addresses. It's not hard to put two and two together.

 

[MogCakes]

I bet MS and other big wigs hate NeoGAF and have stopped at nothing trying to find a legal loophole to take it down.

 

[Neuromancer]

I wonder if two competing viral marketers have ever battled it out on GAF before, not knowing the other was working for the enemy. I'm guessing, yes.

 

[Youta Mottenai]

You know, as a counter point to the question in the thread title, why would Microsoft care?

As long as there are people and the internet, message boards will exist. People will want to talk about games. If you can dominate the conversation, then gamers with dissenting opinions won't be able to gather. They'll be isolated. And then they'll be more susceptible to misinformation from the rest of the internet.

It's technically in Microsoft's favor if NeoGAF doesn't exist. Then they can get you to post on the their official Xbox forums or even the IGN forums where there are more people receptive of their message ready and waiting to converse with you.

Exactly, it's a win-win situation from the company perspective. If it works, the product is hyped. If it doesn´t, at least it muddles any negative conversation towards it.

Luckily for us, moderation here is fantastic, people are more aware, so it backfires, but you can imagine how it is in less moderated forums.

p.s. And Sunhi does it again!

 

[QaaQer]

But I am tired. I made this same argument many times before. In one ear and out the other. Let these greedy corps take your hard earned money that they don't deserve. Tired of trying to help others avoid being taken advantage of, yet give me a warning for doing so. So fuck it.

I know the feeling, brother.

Glad the topic didn't backfire. Thanks guys.

 

[Fredescu]

I don't really why there is such debate over the difference between a paid shill and an irrational fan boy. They're both as detrimental to discussion and debate as each other. Ban them all.

 

[Dead Man]

OOOOH, I get it. Fake grassroots = Astroturfing.

Mind blown. How did I not realise this?

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

I say ban them, tag them, and give them a garish avatar calling them out as shills.
Name and shame the company and marketing firm as well if it's known.

+1

 

[NinjaTehFish]

I'd like to think that there is a viral marketer war happening before our very eyes. Who is winning though, that is the question.

Whoever win, we lose.....

 

[jabuseika]

I've had suspicions about certain users in the last few weeks. Knowing that they are now banned at least tells me my suspicions were not unfounded.

I'm not talking about the obvious, "users" that hadn't posted since like 2010, and only came back from their slumber to post in support of Microsoft's policies. They got banned so quickly, I suspect they were on some list already.

There were others that were not so obvious, but had a certain dedication to specific topics, and now they are banned...

Hmm, maybe it's nothing.

 

[luxsol]

It's pretty smart.

The shills' damage control convinces many/few/some forumer readers that the anti-consumer policies aren't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Even though these shills may be banned in the end, how many people will actually know that that their posts were nothing but direct marketing? Few people will go through these 200 page threads, they might stick around for the first couple of pages before they get bored or leave to do something. So before they're banned, MS's message through these shills has already gotten through.

Revealing all these anti-consumer policies a week before their E3 show and announcement means that the negative press can be done and over with, so that everyone focuses on their games. MS has, without a doubt, a lot of games consumers will go crazy over. So whatever they announce next week will make some people forget/forgive MS's DRM. The press (and forums), who has exhausted their negative views on MS's policies, will instead focus their reporting on GAMES GAMES GAMES.

So by next week, it doesn't matter that the shills have been mostly banned. They did their job by lessening the damage from this week's reveals and E3 week's focus on what gamers want (GAMES!) will have them wanting for the Xbone.

BTW, what have the supposed Square shills been saying? I've been out of the loop with gaming for the past five years or so, so much so i didn't even know that the Wii U was revealed until it was almost time for its launch. Didn't even know Squaresoft-Enix ate up Eidos either.

shillshillshillshillsshitltlshl... needed to get that out of my system.

 

[M3d10n]

Hands up any juniors from here:

http://www.ayzenberg.com/#/clients/

Even ATLUS?! I'll have to re-read the thread about SMTIV being $50.

 

[RooMHM]

1/3rd of reviews are fake ?
TloU thread?

 

[Replicant]

I couldn't help but rolling my eyes when I read the OP realizing that, not surprisingly, MS had done this before on a bigger scale. If they did something like that, I wouldn't doubt they've planted shills in here as well and probably in sizeable numbers.

 

[bigmit3737]

I have a few suspicions with some Sony pro-posters as well - one in particular as well who seems to have recommended a lot of Sony products in off-topic.

It makes it a little sad that these marketers have invaded GAF.

 

[Proven]

Even ATLUS?! I'll have to re-read the thread about SMTIV being $50.

That's, painful to see. I was one of the people defending the $50 price point since the game came with goodies (art book, OST, etc.) and was a 100+ hour game otherwise. I feel betrayed.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

The mods can see email addresses. A lot of them are apparently social agency email addresses. It's not hard to put two and two together.

But normal posters can't. There's a danger of being labeled a shill if your opinion is not a popular one

 

[Durante]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

 

[Resilient]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

Welp came in here to post pretty much this.

Too many times in the last month have I checked a user profile to see their post history based on a crazy post they've made. And I don't want to end up accusing what looks to be a shill if they aren't. So you just have to keep your mouth shut :/

 

[Manmademan]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

Agreed on all points.

While I do believe paid shills have ALWAYS been here in some form (That Beyblades thread comes to mind) I'm convinced that this particular flood of damage control is temporary- a combination of a new high profile console launch and a PR disaster for Microsoft at the same time.

That's a pretty rare combo.

 

[Alucrid]

I say ban them, tag them, and give them a garish avatar calling them out as shills.
Name and shame the company and marketing firm as well if it's known.

Yeah. I wonder if they were just tagged / avatar'd with that info if it would even be necessary to ban them. I imagine they'd just stop posting themselves and then at least posts would retroactively be seen as bullshit.

 

[Heysoos]

See, I don't doubt it happens, but some of you need to be careful about just randomly calling anyone who disagrees with you or likes the Xbox a shill. There's a HUGE difference between an astrosurfer and a fanboy, no matter how much you try to say there isn't. (IMO)

For example that Andrex list, I'm pretty sure that Senjutsu guy wasn't banned for Astrosurfing, rather for being a dick to a junior. The Speedy Blue dude also wasn't a astrosurfer.

I mean seriously, he's basing them being Microsoft shills out of possibly liking how game sharing across the 10 family members might work? At least going by that post. Fucking put me on the list of Microsoft shills then. Jesus. Doing this kind of stuff is just as bad and leads to witch hunts which are never good.

Let the mods do their job, I'm pretty sure they've been on top of it since the beginning. Don't try to start random witch hunts and label people simply because they hold different opinions than you.

 

[Omikaru]

But normal posters can't. There's a danger of being labeled a shill if your opinion is not a popular one

This is definitely half the issue. The more shills there are, the more suspicious GAF members will be. Whilst the mods can and seemingly do handle these astroturfers fine, that doesn't stop other members from being suspicious of legitimate posters. This is going to hurt discussion if people stop engaging with one another because they think they're talking to a corporate wall.

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

It's definitely having an impact. As I said earlier in the thread, personally I don't even bother posting up half my posts, because I think I'm either responding to a shill or will just have what I consider good arguments for my point being garbled up and distorted by paid shills. Whilst I can obviously only speak for myself, I can't be the only one who has done this. In that respect it's definitely harming quality discussion.

I wonder if the admins/mods have any plans to deal with it going forward, besides just banning the shills? But then what exactly can anyone do besides ban them once they begin shilling?

 

[1-D_FTW]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

I think it's particularly bad because they've been planning for console launches for a while and the sleeper agents have all been activated.

Clearly these people have all been pretty bad. Someone mentioned in the other thread how the elite positions make good money, but clearly these have all been guys who are probably making below minimum wage at it. If you ever want to have your heart sink a bit, go look at all the stuff crowdsourcing has their hands on. It's all over with regards to the internet. Get paid to "review" things. Leave testimonials. Etc. And depressingly enough, the saps that do it couldn't even come close to earning minimum wage with what they're getting paid.

It's also why I've never had an issue with the ignore button.Some people act like that's playing against the spirit of a forum. Not me. If somebody is so stupid or has such an agenda, why should I waste my time ever reading another post of theirs (it's bad enough I'll see it re-quoted).

 

[watership]

See, I don't doubt it happens, but some of you need to be careful about just randomly calling anyone who disagrees with you or likes the Xbox a shill. There's a HUGE difference between an astrosurfer and a fanboy, no matter how much you try to say there isn't. (IMO)

For example that Andrex list, I'm pretty sure that Senjutsu guy wasn't banned for Astrosurfing, rather for being a dick to a junior. The Speedy Blue dude also wasn't a astrosurfer.

I mean seriously, he's basing them being Microsoft shills out of possibly liking how game sharing across the 10 family members might work? At least going by that post. Fucking put me on the list of Microsoft shills then. Jesus. Doing this kind of stuff is just as bad and leads to witch hunts which are never good.

Let the mods do their job, I'm pretty sure they've been on top of it since the beginning. Don't try to start random witch hunts and label people simply because they hold different opinions than you.

We should let the mods do their job. What I don't like is the defacto reaction to anyone who hasn't got a problem with the Xbo. It seems to be happening in every xbo thread. In one thread, some guy said he is sick of Jonathan Blow complaining about MS.. He's called out as a shill. Any defense of MS seems to get treated this way. Crazy odd posts? Sure, they're suspect. But i bet lots of people who are pro Xbox one are keeping quiet wondering if theyre going to get banned just for being passionate about what they like on a message board.

 

[Flayer]

I'm a member of another forum and they used to have a punishment designated only for the very worst of posters, it was called Hellbanning. Essentially the user would be given no notification of their punishment but silently all their posts would become invisible to other users. They would be posting unknowingly into the ether from there on, oblivious of their prison cell.

For astroturfers I can think of nothing more appropriate.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

This is definitely half the issue. The more shills there are, the more suspicious GAF members will be. Whilst the mods can and seemingly do handle these astroturfers fine, that doesn't stop other members from being suspicious of legitimate posters. This is going to hurt discussion if people stop engaging with one another because they think they're talking to a corporate wall.

I mean, there's not much you can do about suspicions, it's when members call out others as being shills, making lists etc. It's called backseat modding and it's bannable for a reason imo.

It's been bad the last couple of weeks but I think the mods have done a really good job at banning the worst offenders. I just don't want GAF to engage in McCarthyism and it seems that it's leaning that way lately.

Just let the staff do their jobs, they're quite good at it.

 

[1-D_FTW]

We should let the mods do their job. What I don't like is the defacto reaction to anyone who hasn't got a problem with the Xbo. It seems to be happening in every xbo thread. In one thread, some guy said he is sick of Jonathan Blow complaining about MS.. He's called out as a shill. Any defense of MS seems to get treated this way. Crazy odd posts? Sure, they're suspect. But i bet lots of people who are pro Xbox one are keeping quiet wondering if theyre going to get banned just for being passionate about what they like on a message board.

It's all about perspective. And yes, no sense complaining about how a mod should do their jobs. They've got it difficult under these circumstances. Back to perspective, that first page of that thread seemed like 80 percent people bashing Blow. It was a dog pile. It's all where you're coming from. Because whatever side you're on, you'll only remember the quotes you disagree with and selectively forget everything else.

 

[yogloo]

GAF is a lot like Steam in that it's evolved through years of trial-and-error, and also that it's owned by someone whose first interest isn't to maximize profits. Most other comparable internet communities revolve around ad revenue first and foremost, EviLore's instead built GAF around the ability to converse.

Evilore schill!!!! Ban him!

 

[grumble]

We should let the mods do their job. What I don't like is the defacto reaction to anyone who hasn't got a problem with the Xbo. It seems to be happening in every xbo thread. In one thread, some guy said he is sick of Jonathan Blow complaining about MS.. He's called out as a shill. Any defense of MS seems to get treated this way. Crazy odd posts? Sure, they're suspect. But i bet lots of people who are pro Xbox one are keeping quiet wondering if theyre going to get banned just for being passionate about what they like on a message board.

Agreed. It's going too far.

 

[Omikaru]

I mean, there's not much you can do about suspicions, it's when members call out others as being shills, making lists etc. It's called backseat modding and it's bannable for a reason imo.

It's been bad the last couple of weeks but I think the mods have done a really good job at banning the worst offenders. I just don't want GAF to engage in McCarthyism and it seems that it's leaning that way lately.

Just let the staff do their jobs, they're quite good at it.

Agreed, but regardless of whether the mods are effective at banning the shills or not, suspicions do harm discussion indirectly, even if backseat modding is banned. I am absolutely certain to disengage with someone if I think they're a shill, and like Durante, I too have recently been looking at a member's post history if I think they're astroturfing (and I've been thinking that a lot more often recently). The problem is, I know I'm not going to be 100% right as I only have post history to go on, but because of my suspicions the firewalls will go up, the poster goes on ignore, and discussion as a whole is harmed, especially if they're a legit poster.

 

[RooMHM]

This is definitely half the issue. The more shills there are, the more suspicious GAF members will be. Whilst the mods can and seemingly do handle these astroturfers fine, that doesn't stop other members from being suspicious of legitimate posters. This is going to hurt discussion if people stop engaging with one another because they think they're talking to a corporate wall.

On the contrary I would talk even more to try and make the wall shatter. Like a game.

 

[WrenchNinja]

On the contrary I would talk even more to try and make the wall shatter. Like a game.

Try to find cracks in the armour to break the facade? I can dig it.

 

[atomsk]

Some of them are not very good at it

 

[Captain Tuttle]

Agreed, but regardless of whether the mods are effective at banning the shills or not, suspicions do harm discussion indirectly, even if backseat modding is banned. I am absolutely certain to disengage with someone if I think they're a shill, and like Durante, I too have recently been looking at a member's post history if I think they're astroturfing (and I've been thinking that a lot more often recently). The problem is, I know I'm not going to be 100% right as I only have post history to go on, but because of my suspicions the firewalls will go up, the poster goes on ignore, and discussion as a whole is harmed, especially if they're a legit poster.

Completely understandable and frankly I think it's a by-product of GAF becoming as important and influential as it has. E3 time has never really been the best time of year around here to have intelligent conversations, it's almost like a running joke now; GAF will crash, bannings will happen and then things settle down. It's the way of things.

 

[Dead Man]

Honestly, this stuff bothers me more than almost anything else that happened on GAF before.

I don't know how long it has been going on for, but it only got truly obvious and undeniable for me a week or two ago, and it has changed the way I use GAF for the worse. Now, if I see an unnown member make an outrageous (or repetitive, or deflecting) argument, I don't think they are just silly or bad at discussion, I check their post history. And far too often, doing so makes me almost certain they are being paid for what they are doing -- and equally offensively, they are neither particularly good at it, nor even employing a modicum of effort to cover their tracks.

In addition to the obvious goal of distorting discussion and manipulating the mindset of people, this has some really shitty side-effects:

• The same talking points are repeated in tons of only tangentially related threads, clogging up discussion in each of them.
• Genuine posters with some company affinity suffer from being assumed paid shills.
• Real people waste their time arguing with corporate policy, on which all their well thought out and typed up arguments will have no effect. It's terrible to see a huge, eloquent answer to a two-liner which is clearly shilling.

The worst thing is, if they get better at it, it will be almost impossible to distinguish real posters from the shills. You can always buy an email address at a domain that can't be traced back to your company, and make some unrelated posts to sanitize your history. The best we can hope for is making shilling on GAF so expensive in terms of time and effort invested that it becomes infeasible.

Nice summary. Agree with all points.

 

[DC1]

I don't really why there is such debate over the difference between a paid shill and an irrational fan boy. They're both as detrimental to discussion and debate as each other. Ban them all.

Maybe because some of the irrational fanboys were in fact paid shills.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It's not the paid shills that worry me, it's the unacknowledged volunteers that weird me out.