RowdyReverb
Member
I hope SOMA makes its way to Xbox eventually. Game looks neat. Anybody hear anything about a port?
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One Year Later: Does XB1 still lag behind PS4 for new digital game releases? (yes)
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
BobTheFork
Member
Mindshare? Once you had a point where PS4 was the place to release your console digital games (for whatever reasons) then that tends to stick.
Adding a few PS4 games to the list I missed, including VVVVVV.
Assault came out in December, which misses this list.
Assault came out in December, which misses this list.
funkystudent
Member
While I am sure policies still play a part I bet most of the split now is down to the simple fact that the PS4 is the better selling platform.
Its the inverse of last gen with XBLA and PSN but a little more one sided still.
I break the entire exclusive indie scene down into 2 groups....
You are small, dont have the resources to do multiplat development and dont have a publisher paying you? Go with the most popular. Port elsewhere later if it makes sense.
You got a first party paying? Cool! You will release on their platform first and if your game is good and sells well the other first party will make sure to get in on their platform when your deal is done. If your game sucked it will be quietly forgotten about.
That being said making it a pure numbers game seems like the wrong way to view it. The indie / downloadable scene is getting real weird on console. No matter the platofrm we have seen a flood of lower quality titles now the barrier to get on is lower. You PS+ and GWG have given people great games and at times utter shit. The market is flooded both in games to game and gamers with games they havent played that they got for free.
I gotta wonder how well indie games are selling these days on console and how healthy the scene is.
Its the inverse of last gen with XBLA and PSN but a little more one sided still.
I break the entire exclusive indie scene down into 2 groups....
You are small, dont have the resources to do multiplat development and dont have a publisher paying you? Go with the most popular. Port elsewhere later if it makes sense.
You got a first party paying? Cool! You will release on their platform first and if your game is good and sells well the other first party will make sure to get in on their platform when your deal is done. If your game sucked it will be quietly forgotten about.
That being said making it a pure numbers game seems like the wrong way to view it. The indie / downloadable scene is getting real weird on console. No matter the platofrm we have seen a flood of lower quality titles now the barrier to get on is lower. You PS+ and GWG have given people great games and at times utter shit. The market is flooded both in games to game and gamers with games they havent played that they got for free.
I gotta wonder how well indie games are selling these days on console and how healthy the scene is.
Spider_Jerusalem
Member
BumblebeeCody
Member
No I just mean Microsoft's attitude to indies has been there for since the 360. They just seem to be promoting it a lot more with ID@Xbox for Xbox One. But my point being, Microsoft has always been supportive of smaller developers.
Sweet.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Could the higher number of titles on PS4 be due to Sony funding them or paying for exclusivity? Honest question, I have no idea
I see Gigantic and Pinball FX2, which both got showings at E3, not Elite but anyway, I was talking about really rather obscure and small games. Compare that to posts about Home Free and Bedlam on the PlayStation blog today, for instance. For an indie dev, that's really great exposure and it goes a long way to foster the community to accept these games as "equal".
I just posted this in the 2014 thread, but I'm reposting it here since this is the place for new 2015 discussion.
I'll just briefly offer my perspective as someone who is actively trying to work their way into the world of indie development. This is just my own experience and opinion, so I'm sure it's not representative of other indie devs. I'm also going to omit most of the details (names, dates, numbers, etc.) because it wouldn't really be professional of me to speak to those.
The biggest advantage that Sony has over MS with regards to indie games is the way they're extremely active in courting interesting projects as they pop up. If you have an indie game that's getting some significant amount of attention via social media, there's a decent chance that someone at Sony will initiate contact with you. From there, it's an extremely low friction process to start working with them, and the people at Sony are very helpful and nice at every step along the way.
Maybe this is just me, but that extremely pleasant interaction kinda engenders a sense of loyalty. It feels like Sony has genuine confidence in your product and wants to help you make it successful. That sense of loyalty is a bit contagious, and I think it plays a huge part in making other developers and people in general feel encouraged by Sony's approach to indie games.
On the flip side, regardless of how much of it is actually truth vs perception, everything about approaching MS feels like trying to get inside of a walled city. Unless you have a massively popular up and coming project, it doesn't seem like MS is really initiating contact with any devs. You're most likely going to need to go submit to ID@Xbox without any prior interaction from someone at MS. It's not a hugely involved or costly process, but it ends up feeling like you're applying for the opportunity to cold call and sell someone on your game. It's still low risk to apply, but any amount of friction at all just makes it feel like much more of a long shot than the Sony experience.
I've only ever had one brief conversation with someone from ID@Xbox because I met them in person at GDC, and I didn't walk away from it feeling any better about the prospect of approaching an Xbox One release. To be totally honest, I felt like I was kinda being guilt tripped into applying. The conversation mostly boiled down to, "We've sent out X dev kits to developers. Don't you think you're one of the top X developers out there? If you don't fill out the application, you'll never find out what it's like to work with us." (just paraphrasing here, not an exact quote)
This isn't even touching on whatever MS's contractual obligations are with regard to release parity or additional content - I don't actually know about any of it and wouldn't be able to say anything specific if I did. I'm sure a lot of it is negotiable and won't be the same for every developer anyway.
Nintendo hasn't really entered into the discussion in this thread much, but for the record, all of my interaction with them has also been very pleasant and productive.
EDIT: I may have been mistaken about the fee requirement for ID@Xbox. See here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181544088&postcount=151
I'll just briefly offer my perspective as someone who is actively trying to work their way into the world of indie development. This is just my own experience and opinion, so I'm sure it's not representative of other indie devs. I'm also going to omit most of the details (names, dates, numbers, etc.) because it wouldn't really be professional of me to speak to those.
The biggest advantage that Sony has over MS with regards to indie games is the way they're extremely active in courting interesting projects as they pop up. If you have an indie game that's getting some significant amount of attention via social media, there's a decent chance that someone at Sony will initiate contact with you. From there, it's an extremely low friction process to start working with them, and the people at Sony are very helpful and nice at every step along the way.
Maybe this is just me, but that extremely pleasant interaction kinda engenders a sense of loyalty. It feels like Sony has genuine confidence in your product and wants to help you make it successful. That sense of loyalty is a bit contagious, and I think it plays a huge part in making other developers and people in general feel encouraged by Sony's approach to indie games.
On the flip side, regardless of how much of it is actually truth vs perception, everything about approaching MS feels like trying to get inside of a walled city. Unless you have a massively popular up and coming project, it doesn't seem like MS is really initiating contact with any devs. You're most likely going to need to go submit to ID@Xbox without any prior interaction from someone at MS. It's not a hugely involved or costly process, but it ends up feeling like you're applying for the opportunity to cold call and sell someone on your game. It's still low risk to apply, but any amount of friction at all just makes it feel like much more of a long shot than the Sony experience.
I've only ever had one brief conversation with someone from ID@Xbox because I met them in person at GDC, and I didn't walk away from it feeling any better about the prospect of approaching an Xbox One release. To be totally honest, I felt like I was kinda being guilt tripped into applying. The conversation mostly boiled down to, "We've sent out X dev kits to developers. Don't you think you're one of the top X developers out there? If you don't fill out the application, you'll never find out what it's like to work with us." (just paraphrasing here, not an exact quote)
This isn't even touching on whatever MS's contractual obligations are with regard to release parity or additional content - I don't actually know about any of it and wouldn't be able to say anything specific if I did. I'm sure a lot of it is negotiable and won't be the same for every developer anyway.
Nintendo hasn't really entered into the discussion in this thread much, but for the record, all of my interaction with them has also been very pleasant and productive.
EDIT: I may have been mistaken about the fee requirement for ID@Xbox. See here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181544088&postcount=151
Nice thread chubigans. Subbed.
It's interesting to see that PS4 has almost 33% more indies than X1 even after the Xbox team creating their indie program. And seeing big titles like Hotline Miami 2, SOMA, Rocket League only on PS4 show to me that there is still something behind the scene that stopping some of them to go multiplataform.
It's interesting to see that PS4 has almost 33% more indies than X1 even after the Xbox team creating their indie program. And seeing big titles like Hotline Miami 2, SOMA, Rocket League only on PS4 show to me that there is still something behind the scene that stopping some of them to go multiplataform.
Bingo.
Xion_Stellar
People should stop referencing data that makes me feel uncomfortable because games get ported to platforms I don't like
And a generation later we had developers come out and express their regrets (with signed agreements) and dissatisfaction with the Xbox Live Arcade scene on Xbox 360 and how they mishandled it towards the last years of the system so it certainly wasn't perfect.I still remember how alot of Japanese Shumps simply died on Xbox LIVE Arcade and alot of that was blamed on how the games were being advertised/promoted on the store (and of course the developers platform of choice at the time).
Everyone has an NDA. Sony, Nintendo, Steam - they all have NDAs. It sucks being on the outside and wishing you knew the details, but you can't fault MS specifically for this.
That, itself, also makes an assumption about what a "reasonable" person is. What is reasonable? I don't keep up to date on indie games and I mainly, casually, play AAA, as most indies simply don't interest me. Am I unreasonable?
Genuine question- where do we draw the line? Again, we're on a pretty hardcore gaming forum. A lot of people here are going to be well-versed in all the indie games and darlings being released. But by that same token, a large percentage of console purchasers don't base their purchases around indie titles, and will only make noise when a large popular one isn't on their system (Rocket League, Minecraft, et all). I think it was a drive-by post, but I don't think it was necessarily an incorrect one. Maybe poor in its delivery.
SolidSnakex
Member
Sony was on the indie train going all the way back to the PSone
Remember a PSone puzzle game named Devil Dice? That was originally created in Net Yaroze.
Wickerbasket
Member
Are some people in this thread really arguing for less games?
Like, I understand not being interested in certain games, but you don't even want the option of buying them?
That's crazy to me.
Sometimes I browse the PSN store and buy a cheap game to amuse myself, and it would suck if I had less choice for no other reason than the platform holder's indie policy.
Like, I understand not being interested in certain games, but you don't even want the option of buying them?
That's crazy to me.
Sometimes I browse the PSN store and buy a cheap game to amuse myself, and it would suck if I had less choice for no other reason than the platform holder's indie policy.
LifeIsLife
Banned
Giantbomb guys kinda addressed this in last weeks podcast, but to sorta summarize my fellings on this matter......I dont care. I really dont care about the amount of digital titles coming to these consoles as I dont play 99% of them and they dont look interesting to me in the least. They dont sell consoles and outside of the guys sitting on forums like us, a large majourity of these games will go completely unnoticed by the mass public because shoving 10 games on your service a week means nothing gets the spotlight.
Games seem to come out on X1 later, even if they were announced for Sony systems initially. I looked at the list from the last thread and noticed a few that were 'PS4/PS3 announced' that are now on Xbox.
Given the gulf in sales, I don't know why it's surprising to see more focus on the PS4.
I've always felt that indie devs aren't typically good at promoting their product, and many have seemed unwilling to do any work other than making the game. They don't set out a marketing team or budget for it at all, for example, they make the game and put it out there. That's started to change - more interview availability, more and better trailers for games - but I wonder if that plays into it as well. If Sony is actively courting them, while Microsoft is open to being approached, it might just be easier to work that way.
Given the gulf in sales, I don't know why it's surprising to see more focus on the PS4.
I've always felt that indie devs aren't typically good at promoting their product, and many have seemed unwilling to do any work other than making the game. They don't set out a marketing team or budget for it at all, for example, they make the game and put it out there. That's started to change - more interview availability, more and better trailers for games - but I wonder if that plays into it as well. If Sony is actively courting them, while Microsoft is open to being approached, it might just be easier to work that way.
Interfectum
Member
walltowall
Member
Well, you can find a list of new releases on Major Nelson's blog. Or you can go to the ID@ Xbox site for more indepth coverage/streams. I don't see that as being shoved off. I find it much easier to peruse the ID site than missing stuff. I bought Super Mega Baseball after watching a stream a couple days before release.
With over 100 releases on both platforms in under 10 months, a dedicated site is quite helpful.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Not really. More games (and lack of trials) makes it just harder to filter the bad from the good and sales overall will be lower. Wasn't there a study on Steam that showed 90 % of revenue is generated by some 5 % of all games?
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Your point keeps evolving...
There is indie coverage on the website you claimed didn't have any, you have just adjusted the goal posts and they don't count because ???. And idatxbox.com doesn't count because it's purely dedicated to promoting indies?
I'll pass on any further response as it's detracting from the thread.
That 33% is inaccurate too - if you include Japan it's bigger.
Added! Also added a number of PS4/XB1 games that some of the release lists I was using missed.
That's fine if you don't care. Where you went wrong is to extrapolate your personal feelings to everyone else. Majority of the "mass public" doesn't care about Dead or Alive, should that series just go away too, by your logic? All that DoA DLC that pops up every week on the digital stores also makes sure that no DLC gets the spotlight right?
You care enough that you felt like posting in this thread. Also why would you care whether these games are system sellers or not? Are you a Sony/MS shareholder that just care about company profits or a gamer that wants the option to play as many games as possible? If you don't mind being treated like a 2nd class citizen fine, but don't you think there are others that would enjoy those games?
The problem is that what is a 'good' game is subjective, and having less games on a platform doesn't somehow mean that a higher proportion of them are good ones when those titles have to jump through the same hoops as the shovelware. Players with enough interest in games to explore a digital marketplace are quite capable of discerning what they want to play when on consoles you are talking only a few hundred rather than several thousand titles, and a much lower percentage of FTP titles. Steam statistics really don't apply to PSN etc.
I think your points stand up for mobile games and Steam (for as much as concern about profit over consumer choice is relevant to the discussion) but much less so for PSN/XBO where the difference we are debating can be measured in dozens rather than thousands.
WordsintheWater
Member
This. It's just baffling.
Only in the sense that you have more choice, and that goes for having more lesser quality games to choose from, as well as more higher quality games too. Even then, it's not difficult for informed gamers with some common sense and the ability to use the internet to research the games a bit. No one argues that Apple's devices are worse off for having more apps. More is always better, because it increases your chances of getting a greater number of quality titles, not just lesser ones.
The amusing thing is, arguably the best exclusive released on the Xbox One this year, and the only major exclusive they had for the first two thirds of the year, was a digital title (Oni and the Blind Forest). Also with the PS4, games like Journey, Shovel Knight, Bastion, Galak-Z, Binding of Isaac, Velocity 2X, OlliOlli 2, Rocket League, Geometry Wars, Axiom Verge etc, ranking as some of the highest rated games on the platform.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Sony was on the indie train going all the way back to the PSone
Remember a PSone puzzle game named Devil Dice? That was originally created in Net Yaroze.
I wanted Net Yaroze so much. I was too poor, though.
On topic, Sony has really been blazing a path with Indie games. There have been some good ones. But there are a lot I've played that feel like shovelware, too. More is good because choice is good. But more hasn't necessarily meant better quality gaming. There's a whole lot of caveat emptor on the Indie scene right now.
Exactly. I don't know a single person who just opens up their App Store and starts scrolling down the millions of apps on there looking for random things to try. People hear about games from other people, the internet, etc., and then go and try it based on those recommendations. It's not like you even need to be a forum dweller to be in the know.
I think there are plenty of good indie games there are just too many. Honestly I check xbox one and ps4 stores and it's like I'm constantly reminded that I don't even realize shit is coming out this gen. Last gen for the first year or two I knew exactly what was coming out for both platforms.
What does that have to with my post?
SplitYourInfinities
Member
This thread is like beating a dead horse. PS4 gets most of indie games first for three main reasons: MS abusive policies, install base and mindshare. The first one can be corrected, the other two not so much. The efforts that the ID@Xbox team have to put to bring a game first to their platform are huge, meanwhile a lot of indies are lining up to publish their games on a Playstation platform because Sony has provided a friendly environment for them since day one. At this point there is no way for MS to reverse this situation.
Anyways, last gen was the other way around and people weren't half as concerned. I think that a lot of people use this subject as a bullet point in console wars, which is a shame.
Anyways, last gen was the other way around and people weren't half as concerned. I think that a lot of people use this subject as a bullet point in console wars, which is a shame.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Good OP, chubigans.
This is one of the ps4 games listed - kitten squad. Not sure if quality is much of a concern when making lists like those in the op. It's just pure numbers which backwards compatibility will most likely provide.
I'd be interested to know how many of those games on the lists are vita/ps3 ports.
Is that a straight up Bomberman clone? Also, is that the game Peta made? I wrote Peta off immediately, but I do love me some Bomberman. You say it's not good though?
Edit: Apparently it's a Binding of Isaac clone... boo. Still, it's free so might be worth checking out.
Thanks Chubs for all the hard work, making a list like this isn't easy.
You know, just for comparisons's sake, I'd like to see how Wii U performs against both PS4 and One as well on this front. Is it possible to see that? Mainly 2014-2015, when they started a bigger push for indies, but 2013 would be good as well.
It's free. Seems like it's at least worth a try.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Or it could be that the barrier to entry is far lower than ever before for creative minds and we are now seeing an abundance of games made by great indies. Indies are a thing and they are important for a healthy gaming ecosphere. Gamers have realized there's plenty a gem to be had.
Or, just go with your excuse if it makes you feel better.
Miles Quaritch
Member
MS requires developers pay a fee to publish ID@ games?
Since when? That's a pretty stupid change, wasn't it free before?
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Another great thread. Very interesting stuff here.
Eh. A lot of smaller devs were very unhappy with MS and XBLA last gen (see Team Meat, Jonathan Blow, etc), and as a result pretty much said that they're done with MS entirely. While XBLA certainly paved the way for digital releases on consoles, MS were kind of dicks about the whole thing.
They just have gotten used to feeling like first class citizens, probably.
Good for you. This is an absolutely bonkers/idiotic sentiment though.
Eh. A lot of smaller devs were very unhappy with MS and XBLA last gen (see Team Meat, Jonathan Blow, etc), and as a result pretty much said that they're done with MS entirely. While XBLA certainly paved the way for digital releases on consoles, MS were kind of dicks about the whole thing.
They just have gotten used to feeling like first class citizens, probably.
Good for you. This is an absolutely bonkers/idiotic sentiment though.
Yeah... I'm sure chubs, a developer, is in it for the console wars...
what an excuse.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Good on them for getting more support.
SplitYourInfinities
Member
Uh? How is the bolded an excuse? Did you read the rest of my post?
I said "some people", that doesn't have to include the OP, did you know?
I know who is chubs, i follow his threads and posts in the indieGAF community and find them very informative. And of course i'm not referring to him with that statement (in fact, i'm not referring to anyone in particular).
Banjo-Kazooie
Member
The costs are all costs associated with shipping such as requiring you have insurance, and get the game rates in whatever region it is releasing in (different ratings boards cost different amounts).
Actually getting the equipment to make the games (dev kits), and submitting your game are totally free.
Here's a good read: http://www.gamedevblog.com/2014/07/making-a-shoestring-budget-game-for-the-xbox-one.html