Imtjnotu
Member
im not talking physics or destruction. i mentioned chaos in terms of RT and Particles all going on at the same time.
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|OT|Next-gen Graphics Qualifications
- Thread starter VFXVeteran
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- |OT|
im not talking physics or destruction. i mentioned chaos in terms of RT and Particles all going on at the same time.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Are you serious? Control is doing ALL the RT features in realtime with the destruction. Try looking for accurate ray-traced shadows in R&C demo.
GaviotaGrande
Banned
All dynamic elements / particles are fully ray-traced. I don't know what you're talking about.
Imtjnotu
Member
but we arent talking interaction?
i see what type of thread this is now lol. imma leave you to it gramps
VFXVeteran
Banned
Collision detection for interaction with the environment so that there is destruction is completely what we are discussing here. You think R&C just has particles floating around for the hell of it? Ratchet shoots a lot of things.. the explosions are based on a collision detection algorithm to destroy the props. The video that
GaviotaGrande
presented was a perfect argument made to counter what you say about Control. The type of destruction in R&C has been done before.. period.
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GaviotaGrande
Banned
I guess this is a very subjective thing. I love the artistic style of Control and it's dream-like color pallet, lighting and mood. Regardless, on technical level it's a triumph and a very early taste of what next generation of games will bring.
GreyHand23
Member
It also shows that there is little geometry in the environment and alot of it is duplicate assets. Like the same exact table with the same alignment of folders and computer, copied a dozen times in a room. You can see this used constantly in Control. I'm guessing it was done to save on memory as much less ram would need to be used. Destruction wise, these are different kinds of games so it's hard to compare there, but there was good destruction in R&C demo. Raytracing wise, I'm pretty sure we all know that the capability of the consoles is probably not going to reach the levels of RTX and new cards with vastly improved capability are coming out. I agree on Avengers when it comes to destructibility. There is a crazy amount there, but I would argue that it's gone too far for current gen consoles because the framerate on every consoles is frequently below 30 and even approaches the teens at times. That's the danger of trying to push too far on hardware that isn't quite capable.
GlassAwful
Member
You provide examples of particular rendering features being pushed to their furthest as the metric required to be deemed a generational leap but why aren't you also considering a collective move forward of each or several of those features that perhaps individually are not the pushing the envelope but as a whole are pushing the entire render forward and require/use a generational leap in hardware to reliably render??
I think this is why you bump heads with so many people because you decide to pick on a single rendering technique and judge the entire picture based on that.
I think this is why you bump heads with so many people because you decide to pick on a single rendering technique and judge the entire picture based on that.
JTCx
Member
Implementation and how good something looks goes hand and hand.
Md Ray
Member
The story behind The Last of Us Part II’s staggeringly realistic in-game character facial animation
An exclusive look at the tech and multi-team collaboration that shaped Naughty Dog’s latest adventure.
blog.playstation.com
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Already covered. Maybe try to be less hostile and come at this with a neutral mindset.
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GlassAwful
Member
The fuck? Where was I being hostile?
Yea I missed that back and forth, so what? This guy has a history of doing exactly what I said. Sit down, bitch. (See. Now I'm being hostile.)
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Does he though? When I asked the question politely, he answered and agreed. Which is why I was saying to just try to be neutral. Try not to come at the thread with some sort of preconceived notions about OP. That is all.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
I have no experience in and know nothing about game development or graphics rendering, but I still think this thread is interesting, well thought out and educational to a non-techie like myself. It's unfortunate that it is being greeted with such hostility by certain people.
So, I have a question for you OP. You said FS2020 is next gen because of the incredible lighting and I agree, the lighting is fantastic. Would things like real-time actual weather also be a next gen feature?
People have been posting screen shots of actually flying through Hurricane Laura from FS2020. That is graphics is it not? It is also something that I don't believe has been done before in a game. I find it amazing and mesmerizing.
So, I have a question for you OP. You said FS2020 is next gen because of the incredible lighting and I agree, the lighting is fantastic. Would things like real-time actual weather also be a next gen feature?
People have been posting screen shots of actually flying through Hurricane Laura from FS2020. That is graphics is it not? It is also something that I don't believe has been done before in a game. I find it amazing and mesmerizing.
GlassAwful
Member
Take a minute to turn those cranks in your brain and realize that I came into the thread, asked the exact same question that you did and then you jump down my throat and accuse me of being hostile.
For doing exactly as you did.
The pieces of the puzzle starting to come together for you?
So I'll politely request that you to try to be neutral and not come into a thread with some sort of preconceived notions about OP from now on since apparently making that point means that's what we've done, you and I... That is all.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I've mentioned several rendering techniques in the OP. And by all means it's not all encompassing at all. If there are other techniques, I'd love to hear it.
Yes, a game using an entire subset of all the features we are looking for would be a great addition. Do you have any examples?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
You'll notice how I left the underlined part out of my post...
And I was being neutral without that part. You weren't. You thought you already knew the answer before he answered. I let him answer because I didn't come into this thread with any negative preconceived notions about OP. I've judged the content and character displayed within. This is the last I'll respond to you since you can't seem to be mature and I don't want to derail the thread.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
I would like to add zelda botw as next gen title purely based on the freedom of surroundings.
and not breaking the game.
although it might not have next gen gfx.
I consider it to have next gen gameplay. And no other openworld game has it beaten
in interactivity with the game world.
also this is running on an handheld device.
So it IS pushing handheld gfx.
just like a GBC game displaying faux 3D is still impressive.
and not breaking the game.
although it might not have next gen gfx.
I consider it to have next gen gameplay. And no other openworld game has it beaten
in interactivity with the game world.
also this is running on an handheld device.
So it IS pushing handheld gfx.
just like a GBC game displaying faux 3D is still impressive.
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TonyK
Member
Don't forget about physics. All aspects: light, materials, animations, etc have improved this gen except physics.
An example (there are tons): Horizon Zero Dawn has amazing graphics but the non reactive environment makes me feel it as fake. Same for almost all games these days. It has no sense for me that Half-Life 2 has better physics that vast majority of AAA games from this gen. I hope next gen will start to pay attention to world physics again, if not, we will continue with these pretty but faked games.
An example (there are tons): Horizon Zero Dawn has amazing graphics but the non reactive environment makes me feel it as fake. Same for almost all games these days. It has no sense for me that Half-Life 2 has better physics that vast majority of AAA games from this gen. I hope next gen will start to pay attention to world physics again, if not, we will continue with these pretty but faked games.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
This is the second time you've thread whined and attempted to derail. Add something of substance, stop derailing the thread or get out.
On topic:
I don't know where else to ask this.
VFXVeteran
and anyone else who would know. What is the technique, or whatever you'd call it, that stops clipping? Is this something that is a time constraint or is it more of a hardware constraint? It's one of my graphical pet peeves and sucks me right out of my immersion. Would you even call that a graphical feature?I saw a lot of it in Halo infinite reveal and even in the new Ratchet and Clank gameplay. Also pretty much any current gen game. It was something that I was hoping would be solved by now.
Clintizzle
Lord of Edge.
Found GaymerNYC69 alt account
INC
Member
Wow thats awesome
It still boggles my mind, that hardly any games have pushed destruction forward more
Just cause and red Faction springs to mind instantly
I thought we would be past this by now, most games don't even have destructible light bulbs lol
VFXVeteran
Banned
That's a very good question. Yes, FS2020 is doing some really amazing tech. We at LMT would love to have an graphics engine like that for other things. But the terrain rendering and the realtime weather systems are basically parsed from actual data and then procedurally created which is amazing tech.
VFXVeteran
Banned
3 - huh? Are you saying that R&C can't be implemented on a high end PC hardware including a NvMe SSD? How so? Do you know what each level costs as far as memory? Do you know the maximum throughput used in the PS5 SSD that's needed to load those levels?
I'm curious at your answer actually.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I've read nearly all of his posts and have seen how people act like they can't help but dogpile. You can't fool me. I don't care what sort of cognitive dissonance you and others have got toward OP. Go complain about him somewhere else. He's added FAR more of value to the conversation and topic of the OP than you have in this thread.
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Pedro Motta
Member
Yes I am. And I don’t need to know memory footprints or IO throughput number to understand that what’s happening with warping levels tech in Ratchet and Clank is next gen all the way. No PC would be able to pull that off easily because of latency and bottlenecks.
Here is a comparison of loading times on a PC with an NvMe(~3gb/s) vs an SSD(~500Mb/s), and the difference is almost none. You think any of these games have larger memory reservation than R&C?
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
The complexity of the geometry, the water physics, as well as the high resolution textures and shaders make it look next gen. Maybe we can call it art and say it's not technically above current gen titles, but I think we would all be lying to ourselves if we said that. The image quality is also superb.
Aside from ray tracing which on and off sometimes looks pretty much identical. There's not been a next gen leap in geometry assets physics post processing etc on pc.
ratchet and clank has significantly better postprocessing effects than pretty much any current title, and that includes control and all pc games.
The fur looks notably better than any current gen game. As do the post processing effects. Wouldn't be surprised if they're rendering individual hairs for the cutscenes.
That above screenshot, aside from the 'artistically' as you say choice of low poly weapon, would easily be mistaken for a cg film of not too far back and not too low a budget.
geometry through the roof, and very sharp textures with ultra clean image quality. Wasn't there debate about whether the trailer was even realtime? With you saying it was and digital foundry saying it was cg?
we've only seen the base weapons of R&C. If previous games are anything to go by expect that to scale to dozens if not hundreds of enemies rapidly bursting and exploding into thousands of pickup objects flying left and right.
Star citizen has next gen scope. But many of its environments only look marginally better than current gen titles. It's characters also don't look like a notable leap above current character models.
I'd be surprised if neither naughty dog's next gen effort s nor santa monica's show a significant leap in character quality over star citizen(which itself is a leap over games like control.).
In many cases you enable and disable ray tracing and the image looks quite similar. Sure we can say it is technically super more advanced, but if in the end the image ends up looking quite similar it didn't bring much to the table.
Control has very good destruction, but was that scaled down on the ps4 xbox one port? Or was only the ray tracing scaled down?
Maybe I'm mistaken but I suspect all its destruction is available on ps4 as a current gen title. Its raytracing lighting barely perceptible but heavily taxing, was scaled down.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
This is the second time you've thread whined and attempted to derail. Add something of substance, stop derailing the thread or get out.
On topic:
I don't know where else to ask this.
I saw a lot of it in Halo infinite reveal and even in the new Ratchet and Clank gameplay. Also pretty much any current gen game. It was something that I was hoping would be solved by now.
Are you talking about LOD transition? You got a link to the "clipping"?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I'll grab a few shots. But I'm talking about stuff like foliage clipping through objects and characters clipping through objects as well.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Dude, please leave the thread.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Then you probably read the one he got a call all of suddenly confirming PS5 was an 8 or 9tf and there was actually a ps5 pro in the making that would still be weaker than séries X lmao
On that day I laughed so hard I could no longer give him any credits as I wish
Could you please go away or stop derailing and disrupting this thread. I don't think anyone in this thread trying to discuss next gen graphics care about your personal vendetta against
VFXVeteran
.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
You have to realize that R&C is coding around the SSD on the PS5 to load that fast. It doesn't just work automatically. If Insomniac implemented R&C on the XSX/PC, they could do the same fetch/store from an NvMe drive and it would be fast enough to be plausible. That's why I asked you what the bandwidth limit was. I wanted to see if you would you say "oh, it's using maximum throughput of 5.5G/s. So in the reveal we see it takes about 2s to load in a level. Perhaps a NvMe SSD @ 3.5G/s or 2.5G/s would take a little bit longer but it's possible."
Doesn't that sound more rationale, less fanboyish and promotes a healthy discussion?
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
VFXVeteran
Here you go.You can see here the foliage clipping on the rocks. It's everywhere and it's really disconcerting when in motion.
And here, the gun of the enemy in the middle is clipping through the crates. Also, I noticed the space/dropship that just dropped them off clips right through a tree... Again, really disconcerting in motion.
Again, this isn't anything new, tons, if not all games this gen have done this. It's just one of my personal pet peeves that I was hopping would be solved next gen. However, I'll say that the better a game looks graphically/artistically, the more this kind of thing stands out to me. So I was wondering if I still might get my wish at some point lol.
VFXVeteran
Banned
What game are you talking about? Your image won't load.
ratchet and clank has significantly better postprocessing effects than pretty much any current title, and that includes control and all pc games.
Post processing? Like what? DOF, Bloom, HDR tone mapping, Motion blur? Which post-processing are you talking about?
First of all a head of proxy geometry isn't fur rendering. That game does not have true fur hairs. Watch the Black Myth demo for a true hair rendering.
It is realtime. I can't speak for DF. Where is the access geometry in that shot? I see particles like most games have these days.
Barely perceptible? How can you completely notice RT reflections in the R&C gameplay but barely notice the same reflections and GI lighting in Control? I"m confused at this selective vision.
VFXVeteran
Banned
You can see here the foliage clipping on the rocks. It's everywhere and it's really disconcerting when in motion.
And here, the gun of the enemy in the middle is clipping through the crates. Also, I noticed the space/dropship that just dropped them off clips right through a tree... Again, really disconcerting in motion.
Again, this isn't anything new, tons, if not all games this gen have done this. It's just one of my personal pet peeves that I was hopping would be solved next gen. However, I'll say that the better a game looks graphically/artistically, the more this kind of thing stands out to me. So I was wondering if I still might get my wish at some point lol.
Yup. I can answer that question. Every realtime engine goes through what is called a collision detection system. It's not cheap. Collision detection is very tricky and costs CPU overhead. It is not apart of the normal graphics pipeline where you take a triangle straight through to shading it on the screen. Because of these expense, some objects are tagged as "non-collision detectable". R&C target cursor isn't going to have that turned on as it would kill the gameplay of the game. So the "boxes" don't know about the target.
In the case of the foliage on the rocks, that's just bad placement. I don't think it should be there. But the foliage will still not be tested for collision detection with the rocks since none of them interact with each other.
Hope this helps.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
That really does help. So do you think we'll be seeing games where clipping is gone this gen?
Also, just so you know, that isn't a target cursor on the boxes. That is the enemy on the other side of box's gun clipping straight through the boxes. I wasn't talking about the target cursor. Unless I'm misunderstanding you when you say "R&C's target cursor."
Here's a better example.
The enemy moves behind the boxes and his gun clips through.
The enemy moves away from the boxes, his gun moves through the boxes until he is away from them. The boxes are untouched.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
I'm talking about most pc titles with ray tracing. Like control.
Outside of reflections, where screenspace reflection anomalies could probably be dealt with cheaper, I've seen many on and off ray tracing pictures where the difference is marginal at best.
And control in some areas goes out of its way to exaggerate ray tracing.
Even minecraft and quake rtx the most spectacular examples with full path tracing. They don't look like something that couldn't be approached quite well with traditional techniques, let alone voxel global illumination approximations.
The motion blur on the characters, depth of field and the post processing on the particles make them look notably better than current gen games. Maybe it's not technical. But the level of polish does make it look quite better, as does the bullshot supersampled like image quality.
I thought black myth was only using polystrips with transparency similar to some of the clothing in horizon but with far more strips and bones.
if it doesn't it fakes it quite well. Would have to listen to dev.s and see if it reacts to wind in any of the cutscenes. If it reacts to wind in any cutscene, and if it is individual hairs being rendered, that would be impressive in my book no matter the technique used.
A ps4 to ps5 comparison screenshot. Not only does the fur look like it have depth in cutscene motion but when it is at angles it appears to protrude significantly from the character generating a deep fur outline.
The environment is not just low poly environment or environment with tesselated surface, there are individually protruding by significant margin bricks and vegetation. There's lot of intricate geometric detail going around.
Often you'd get a few building walls with high rez textures and flat surfaces on current gen, or you'd get a rocky tesselated surface with no discenible detail only random noise or some texture pattern. Only with lots of instanced vegetation in a jungle do you ever see similar levels of intricacy in the environment on modern day current gen titles.
the reflections are the least impressive of R&Cs feats. If they used fake reflections instead it'd probably look near identical, bar a few nitpicker perceptible anomalies.
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Dodkrake
Banned
I'll answer. Assuming full ram occupancy, as most console games go for, the maximum throughput will be in the order of > 7GB/s compressed when considering the sub 2 sec "load" times between screens.
Please show us a PC that can load into RAM that fast. I'll grab a chair.
JTCx
Member
Clipping issues wont go away. Its a very low priority bug in the dev cycle. During development theres different tiers of bugs. The game breaking ones will get the most priority and will be fixed. The clipping will be fixed depending on how drastic it is. The example you provided is most likely a low priorty one and those will get fixed really late in the dev or in post production. Collision boxes arent cheap.That really does help. So do you think we'll be seeing games where clipping is gone this gen?
Also, just so you know, that isn't a target cursor on the boxes. That is the enemy on the other side of box's gun clipping straight through the boxes. I wasn't talking about the target cursor. Unless I'm misunderstanding you when you say "R&C's target cursor."
Here's a better example.
The enemy moves behind the boxes and his gun clips through.
The enemy moves away from the boxes, his gun moves through the boxes until he is away from them. The boxes are untouched.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Actually the ps5 is faster than that. Significantly faster than that. Why it takes 2 seconds? Could be scene setup or lack of optimization.
Performance of various compressors on Oodle Texture RDO data
Oodle Texture RDO can be used with any lossless back-end compressor. RDO does not itself make data smaller, it makes the data more compres...cbloomrants.blogspot.com
Using RDO the ps5 can easily get up to 21.9GB/sec on texture data.
I've heard of 1:3 geometry compression with kraken. So that's also around 17GB/sec for geometry.
Considering most of the data is either geometry or textures, and the ps5 is rumored to have 2GB reserved for OS, the ps5 should be able to fill all available ram, all 14GB of ram in under one second.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
1. You are assuming full ram occupancy for a game level when it takes the game engine to still be in memory? How does that work?
VFXVeteran
Banned
Those numbers are completely theoretical. How does a closed system do work with 100% efficiency? It contradicts the first law of theromdynamics. 5.5G/s is a ballpark number maximum number. It hasn't been tested in a realworld sense given code bloat, algorithms, fetch/store overhead, etc.. You don't know what game code is doing with the hardware. Stop assuming a perfect harmony system coupled with perfect game coders.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Would the game engine take that much memory? Unity even with the editor environment open only takes about 500~MB. I'd assume 90~+% of memory is game assets not the engine.
edit:
Cerny Road To Ps5. Assuming he ain't lying these are the actual numbers attained in real world. The higher 17+GB is only a result of compression, and Cerny clearly said the system can sustain 20+GB peak with compression.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
Thus the assets. I loaded a 2d project, and it was around 500~MB. Could load one of the 3d demos and see how much that takes but doubt it's much.