-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Persona 5 |OT2| Someone must have been helping you go to bed early. Talk!
- Thread starter BRSxIgnition
- Start date
SatelliteOfLove
Member
You'll never see it coming.
"Why would someone vandalize someone's car like that, *player name*?"
Or does it.
Wtf Just made it to tbe top of the 1st palace and now game wants me to go back down and search for some key. This sucks ass man. This isn't fun this is just padding. Ahhjjdjdsndkdkdkdkdksm fuck.
I so don't want to fight those strong ass enemies again, and suffer from poorly designed stealth hiding spots.
I so don't want to fight those strong ass enemies again, and suffer from poorly designed stealth hiding spots.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
That's a great picture! I like how Yukiko is just posing for the camera, haha. I feel like I've seen a lot of Persona art from this artist, and they've gotten a lot better. It's cool to see evolution like that.
JSoup
Banned
The phrasing you're looking for is "busy work".
And it's an RPG, busy work is the honey on the bunt cake.
fun fact: my first time through this section, the game bugged out and didn't spawn the enemies i needed to kill for the keys, and i was very confused until i ran back to the top and went back down, when it loaded the enemies correctly
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The dungeons in P5 get a lot of praise, but I find them to be the weakest part of the game. P3 and P4 both had extremely simple dungeons, but I found that the games were better for it.
None of the dungeons in P5 are on the level of Heaven from P4, for instance, despite it just being a bunch of samey corridors.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
If you ever direct a RPG can you tell me? So I'll know to stay away as far as I can?
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Please be excited.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Lmao after final boss
..I'm so sorry
Least I spent it with tae
Valentine's Day
Least I spent it with tae
These are the best dungeons in any turn based ever made.
I cant even think of a single jrpg that holds a candle in terms of dungeon design.
Its a pretty big breakthrough.
I've just beat the 5th palace and part of the way through I sorta started losing steam. At this point I explicitly know certain spoilers about the game (or have known them since the start and then understood them more when combined with others spoilers I saw later, etc.), and the game seems fully content with being extremely unsubtle about its hinting while also not actually letting the characters pick up on anything. It's made worse by the fact that this palace was extremely easy; I beat just about every enemy encounter in a single turn.
So I love the game so far, but I'm hoping the plot's pacing picks up so it can just fucking tell me the things I've been spoiled for already. And I know that's obviously not entirely it's fault, but I do think the slow pacing of actually giving you any of the meat of what's been going on is fair to criticize and it's really really not helping right now. Like, just tell me about
And meanwhile: I'm running out of time to max confidants, and I need to choose who to date between Futaba and Makoto and aaaahhhhhch
So I love the game so far, but I'm hoping the plot's pacing picks up so it can just fucking tell me the things I've been spoiled for already. And I know that's obviously not entirely it's fault, but I do think the slow pacing of actually giving you any of the meat of what's been going on is fair to criticize and it's really really not helping right now. Like, just tell me about
what Akechi's been up to already, since Twitter and such have even started giving me context that I didn't want to know, and that'll at least eliminate the rest of what I know bar a certain big twist that I at least don't think the game will spend too much time hinting at before it drops.
And meanwhile: I'm running out of time to max confidants, and I need to choose who to date between Futaba and Makoto and aaaahhhhhch
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
And yet they aren't fun at all. The puzzles, backtracking, the arbitrary gating("now that you reached this door, an enemy has spawned three rooms behind you because fuck you, go kill em"), and constant stop-and-go busywork range from dull to aggravating.
Like, I can appreciate how much more fleshed out and detailed they are than previous entries, but the end result left me putting off dungeons for as long as possible.
Its not really gating as much as its scripted events/set pieces that the devs put in.
Which actually shake up the monotony of running around random generated hallways.
The previous Persona games didnt exactly let you do 100% as you please either.
Elaugaufein
Member
I thought it (the dungeon flow) was pretty mediocre to start with. The stealth mechanic is slow (always because not getting a preemptive strike is more punishing than in 3/4) and janky to start with. You do get used to the idiosyncrasies:
Limited facing control while stealthed
Poor feedback on non-stealth cover (and/or enemy LoS)
X button does everything (like leaving cover instead of initiating an Ambush because the enemy moved a pixel while you were pressing it),
The left stick jumping out of cover to your doom as well as adjusting position (why? Did they think that people needed an extra suicide option?)
And the facing of hiding spots you jump into being unpredictable and nonsensical (if I'm jumping forward I probably don't want to suddenly face backwards or left or right).
I sailed through Kamoshida's palace on NG+ while it was a PITA on NG.
The random generation at least meant the dungeons flowed smoothly and consistently as you exlored and didn't have to take time outs to get an Ambush. It also forced them to be less fricking murderous about not getting First Strike.
Once you get used to it, it mostly works and adds to the atmosphere, at the start it's mostly a pain and makes dungeons seem unnecessarily slow.
Limited facing control while stealthed
Poor feedback on non-stealth cover (and/or enemy LoS)
X button does everything (like leaving cover instead of initiating an Ambush because the enemy moved a pixel while you were pressing it),
The left stick jumping out of cover to your doom as well as adjusting position (why? Did they think that people needed an extra suicide option?)
And the facing of hiding spots you jump into being unpredictable and nonsensical (if I'm jumping forward I probably don't want to suddenly face backwards or left or right).
I sailed through Kamoshida's palace on NG+ while it was a PITA on NG.
The random generation at least meant the dungeons flowed smoothly and consistently as you exlored and didn't have to take time outs to get an Ambush. It also forced them to be less fricking murderous about not getting First Strike.
Once you get used to it, it mostly works and adds to the atmosphere, at the start it's mostly a pain and makes dungeons seem unnecessarily slow.
I'm going through NG+, and only now is the sadness setting in. I already beat this game...I have to make friends with them again. Makoto, you were kind of a bitch in the beginning...
Still gonna keep going though. Got to Yusuke in 12 hours. Also it's a huge dry period for me right now when it comes to new games. I don't have a game to dedicate my time to right now and right now, all I can think about is P5.
Still gonna keep going though. Got to Yusuke in 12 hours. Also it's a huge dry period for me right now when it comes to new games. I don't have a game to dedicate my time to right now and right now, all I can think about is P5.
The stealth is pretty simple and works as intended.
The stealth mechanics here are not janky by any means.
Errrrrr... I wouldn't go that far. Best dungeons in the Persona series tho.
Elaugaufein
Member
If making me wish for P3/P4 dungeons for the hours long trip through Palace 1 is as intended, then I'm really hoping they don't carry this over to Persona 6 because there's no chance for any improvements.
Judging back from my experience at least.
I cant think of a single FF,tales,pokemon that compares, for example.
Not only are they good individually, they work so well with the other systems that they implemented.
Brilliant work that I didnt expect from infamously bad dungeons in P3/4.
I appreciated the dungeons, and I certainly didn't hate them, but I definitely began to get burnt out by them as I progressed through the game. Just typically became a thing where I appreciated the them I'd next see, and the layout, then before long I'm just wanting to get through it already due to how long they are.
I haven't played the previous games, but I doubt I'd want to go back to how the previous entries did it. Just keep streamlining what they've done here I suppose.
I haven't played the previous games, but I doubt I'd want to go back to how the previous entries did it. Just keep streamlining what they've done here I suppose.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
And they're kind of awful.
To clarify, I'm not saying that P5's dungeons are automatically worse because they are more complex. I think there's a lot of potential there. I just prefer P3/P4's dungeons over what we actually got in P5.
Well gang, I Finished Palace 5 in (an in game) day thanks to SP adhesive 3 on the whole party. Rather than marathon it though, I played an hour or a night on 3 separate days over the course of a week and I gotta say - it was fine ? Honestly didn't feel any longer to me than the third or the 4th dungeons. The mechanics within the dungeons themselves did hit a peak for me with the second one but I wouldn't say the next couple were a mess or anything.
I'm still really enjoying this game and all it's foibles is what I'm getting at. Closing in on 70 hours played with I believe another 14 days of free time ? Knowledge and Charm are still at 4 points , kindness, guts and Proficiency at 3 points but I have to assume that Kindness score is leveling up very soon.
As for the rest , well, I'm level 9 with two people, level 8 with at least 3 more , level 7 with another few. I'm not trying to min/max this game so if I don't end up getting too many maxed out , whatever.
For those frightened off by the time commitment - don't look at this as a 100 hour thing , look at it as a whole set of manga , or 52 episodes of anime or something. Take it in slowly, enjoy it.
I'm still really enjoying this game and all it's foibles is what I'm getting at. Closing in on 70 hours played with I believe another 14 days of free time ? Knowledge and Charm are still at 4 points , kindness, guts and Proficiency at 3 points but I have to assume that Kindness score is leveling up very soon.
As for the rest , well, I'm level 9 with two people, level 8 with at least 3 more , level 7 with another few. I'm not trying to min/max this game so if I don't end up getting too many maxed out , whatever.
For those frightened off by the time commitment - don't look at this as a 100 hour thing , look at it as a whole set of manga , or 52 episodes of anime or something. Take it in slowly, enjoy it.
To each their own.
Mementos is in the game guys.There's your P4/3 dungeons.
I find mementos to be a pretty tedious grind.
Off the top of my head, SMT3, SMT SJ, BoFV, Grandia, VP2, Vagrant Story, Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, and the majority of the Dragon Quest series, all have better dungeon design than Persona 5. Not to mention, P5 really only has 8 dungeons for a 100+ hour game. Lol.
In fact, all the great things about P5's dungeons are just mechanics lifted from SMT dungeon designs over the years, simplified for a more accessible demographic.
If you're counting souls as JRPG then sure
SMT I havent played. Dragon quest I cannot agree with.
Hold up
In what universe did P3/P4 have better dungeons than P5? The dungeon design in those games don't even remotely compare to their PS2 contemporary's, let alone P5. Even at its worst, P5 is still a major improvement on the generic, uninspired and boring dungeons that made playing through them a slog in P4 and especially P3. They were only bearable because they were short and character banter made engaging in battles fun. The dungeons themselves were hot garbage. P5 on the other hand is a huge improvement. Even if it falls flat on its face from time to time, it's still a better experience by virtue of not being completely mindless.
I didn't really get that all. The game is actually incredibly generous with how stealth worked, provided you aren't dashing near enemies. Let them walk by, get out of cover follow them and press X. Even if they spot you, there's a grace period where you can still ambush them. It's still miles ahead P3/P4's sneaking mechanics. From what I remember, the first dungeon's sneaking mechanics were actually pretty good, barring that one obnoxious event towards the end.
In what universe did P3/P4 have better dungeons than P5? The dungeon design in those games don't even remotely compare to their PS2 contemporary's, let alone P5. Even at its worst, P5 is still a major improvement on the generic, uninspired and boring dungeons that made playing through them a slog in P4 and especially P3. They were only bearable because they were short and character banter made engaging in battles fun. The dungeons themselves were hot garbage. P5 on the other hand is a huge improvement. Even if it falls flat on its face from time to time, it's still a better experience by virtue of not being completely mindless.
I didn't really get that all. The game is actually incredibly generous with how stealth worked, provided you aren't dashing near enemies. Let them walk by, get out of cover follow them and press X. Even if they spot you, there's a grace period where you can still ambush them. It's still miles ahead P3/P4's sneaking mechanics. From what I remember, the first dungeon's sneaking mechanics were actually pretty good, barring that one obnoxious event towards the end.
the_sun_king
Member
I still hate Kanji's redesign for the epilogue.
I still haven't beaten P5. Real life needs to stop being so entertaining.
CielTynave
Member
Finally finished at 90:40, what a fucking ride. I told myself I wasn't going to replay this for a while, but I'm already tempted to do NG+ just so I can do all of the confidants didn't finish lol. The epilogues for each of them felt kind of lackluster compared to P3 and 4 though, kind of a shame.
Bring on the P5 milking Atlus, I'm ready for it.
Bring on the P5 milking Atlus, I'm ready for it.
I don't think anyone even said this. Just that they found the mindless random design in P3/P4 less tedious than having to play actual dungeons in P5.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
P3/P4 just drowned you in atmosphere - a lot of credit to Meguro, admittedly - and mixed some SMT gameplay in. It wasn't fancy, it wasn't a showcase of brilliant game design, but it hit the notes that I needed without making me carry three orbs and two keycards while backtracking to kill a random enemy as a mouse in the dark.
poipoipoi9
Member
Update regarding crosswords: It turns out the solutions for the English crosswords posted on most if not all websites are all false and likely machine translated from Japanese. (Realised this as the solution for the 5th isn't the nonsensical "Bisen" listed by most sites, but "Roasting"). Goodness me, so that's why these sites have stupid inane solutions like "Powered by Translate".
You know, I actually agree with you to a certain extent. The dungeon play in P3/P4 had some of the least demanding gameplay ever. It so was easy to just turn your brain off, and get sucked into the addicting cycle of fighting shadows, opening chests, climbing up stairs rinse and repeat. But that got old (especially in P3), and the dungeon play was a pretty big disappointment in comparison to the other megaten PS2 titles. You visit some great locations in P4, but the gameplay pretty much never changed and they all felt the same (music and plot aside), which sucked.
P5 was a totally different beast (obviously). Dungeons are demanding, and progression doesn't feel as lifeless. Sure there were a few duds here and there, but those were pretty much the exception. Like nothing in P3/P4 compared to that feeling I first got when I got to fully explore Kamoshida's castle for the first time. Finding the revolving painting, discovering the hidden treasure at the bottom of the staircase, jumping and climbing over the place... that shit was rad. Like backtracking and carrying keys and whatever didn't seem like such a big deal when your characters basically moved at sonic speed, quick travel was a viable option, sneaking by enemies was a breeze. Also characters actually talk and reflect on what they experience instead of being super mute until the end, which was pretty neat aspect.
Basically, if I had to sum up my experiences with dungeons in the Persona games:
P3/P4: Quickly got them out of the way to experience social links.
P5: Paced myself in order to savor them.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I don't think Souls count here. And that's unfair because Souls design in general, is the top in gaming. But Nocturne dungeons weren't as good. Strange Journey is a fantastic game but the way it's designed...well you can't argue if that kind of dungeoning is better or not. BofV wasn't better. Nor the two Grandia games I played. I'm one of the 3 people on Earth who prefer VP2 over 1, and the P5 dungeons are better. I played every DQ game except 7 and 10. And the P5 dungeons are a LOT better.
Vagrant Story? Ok I'll give you that one too.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
This is one thing I really appreciated about P5's dungeons, actually. Every time characters were talking about having to go back to some place, I started thinking to myself, "I have to walk back that far? Are you kidding?" And then some teammate would say something like, "Wanna go straight there?" and boom. Puzzle solved. And if I had to backtrack for anything else, like a locked chest, safe rooms made it really easy.
Also, I think the dungeon music is miles better in P5. The only song I ever listened to in Tartarus was Fuuka's remix of Maya's Theme, and the only songs I liked from P4 were Striptease, Heaven, and Corridor.
Just my thoughts though. I can see where you're coming from, even if I disagree.
The dungeons are fine but I don't think they are better than the ones in Persona 4 just because they have more effort put into the design. Basically what they did was put in a bunch of simplistic but repetitive puzzles into each dungeon which slow you down. They also added a little verticality to the area models. This makes the dungeons a little more complex visually and in terms of the gameplay, but I think people are exaggerating by how much. Even if the visuals and puzzles change from dungeon to dungeon, the gameplay is still pretty much the same across them all. They never really felt that different to me and I was fully on autopilot trying to plough through by the fifth dungeon. The puzzles are so simple you don't even need to think to complete them and it won't take that long.
I don't think the dungeons were particularly good, just fine. Just because they had more effort put into the design doesn't mean they are a huge success by default. In fact the puzzles are a big negative at various points, coming off as just an annoying hindrance to getting the fuck on with the game - 'I can see the door but okay I guess this map it going to take 10 minutes while I hit these switches'. Plus a lot of the dungeon gimmicks are in text only, ie the coins in dungeon 6 are really just a narrative excuse to make you wander around the floor and do a bunch of battles before continuing. There isn't a gameplay element unique to it or anything.
Then there are things like how every map enemy behaves in exactly the same way and the stealth mechanics being so slight that they function exactly the same way in every room, at all times.
So, the design of the dungeons themselves might have variety but the way you travel through them doesn't. They are still extremely repetitive and become more and more of a chore once you have seen all the new enemy types and visual elements, and yet the dungeon continues for another two hours.
I don't think the dungeons were particularly good, just fine. Just because they had more effort put into the design doesn't mean they are a huge success by default. In fact the puzzles are a big negative at various points, coming off as just an annoying hindrance to getting the fuck on with the game - 'I can see the door but okay I guess this map it going to take 10 minutes while I hit these switches'. Plus a lot of the dungeon gimmicks are in text only, ie the coins in dungeon 6 are really just a narrative excuse to make you wander around the floor and do a bunch of battles before continuing. There isn't a gameplay element unique to it or anything.
Then there are things like how every map enemy behaves in exactly the same way and the stealth mechanics being so slight that they function exactly the same way in every room, at all times.
So, the design of the dungeons themselves might have variety but the way you travel through them doesn't. They are still extremely repetitive and become more and more of a chore once you have seen all the new enemy types and visual elements, and yet the dungeon continues for another two hours.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
So started third palace and got Makoto.
Holy crap I think i'm in love, This girls design is so awesome. Can't wait to see how she developers character wise.
Also, wow does this game seem like you need to follow an faq to get events in the right order. Missing just one can really throw off you time management. Game seems very unforgiving in that regard.
Holy crap I think i'm in love, This girls design is so awesome. Can't wait to see how she developers character wise.
Also, wow does this game seem like you need to follow an faq to get events in the right order. Missing just one can really throw off you time management. Game seems very unforgiving in that regard.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I'd say the dungeons in P5 actually are better, just because they're designed. I mean, even if the gameplay doesn't change that much, at least the locations change and some environmental storytelling is incorporated beyond, "This dungeon looks this way to match the theme we're trying to present."
And while there weren't nearly as many, I'd argue that the puzzles in P4's dungeons deserve a special mention for being extra awful. Mid-P4 spoilers
I hate trying to find the access keys for Naoto's dungeon. It's like the worst of both worlds: simple, tedious puzzles in a really drab location.
As my first Persona game, my main issue with Palaces is that they simply feel too long. You could argue this is down to my playstyle of finishing a Palace as quickly as possible, but I feel there are some elements of the design that could be tweaked and tightened up.
EDIT: The padding and repetitive puzzles become more apparent Palace 5 onnwards.
That being said, the aesthetic design of the Palaces is almost perfect, and makes traversing them less of a slog.
EDIT: The padding and repetitive puzzles become more apparent Palace 5 onnwards.
That being said, the aesthetic design of the Palaces is almost perfect, and makes traversing them less of a slog.
It's less "unforgiving" and more "not designed around seeing everything in one run." You can, but the game doesn't expect you to.
also makoto da bes
Disagreements aside (I think verticality, significantly better movement options, and dungeon objectives change up the flow considerably) I fail to see how any of that makes Persona 5's dungeons inferior to Persona 4's. The dungeons in Persona 4 were the definition of bottom class.
EDIT: Also gathering coins was fucking awesome. You can boil it down to just text, but the simple act of gaining more money was immensely satisfying.
brianmcdoogle
Member
5>2>4>3 in terms of dungeons/palaces/tartarus and I'm not even sure why anything else would be considered. But, I think I'm in the minority of forum Persona people at this point.
Unknown One
Member
D5's dungeons are alright, it's the pacing that kills it, like a lot of the game. I dislike going to the same palace several times just to beat it because the story demands it. I dislike being to sleep all the damn time by that cat.
P3's pacing was much better and you had more freedom. Just mechanically inferior.
P3's pacing was much better and you had more freedom. Just mechanically inferior.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
You have more free days in Persona 5 than any other game in the series since P3.
Elaugaufein
Member
Not even that for me. I don't mind hand crafted dungeons, I just think that the marriage between P5s dungeons and it's stealth mechanics are wonky and that the combined result isn't actually deserving of the praise it's getting compared to random generation.
The dungeons are fine as far as pre-generated dungeons, some of them are even impressive and it certainly gives more scope for more intricate puzzles than the 1 or 2 setpiece floors per dungeon in P4.
But there's a certain dull monotony to hiding behind an object while waiting way to long for an enemy to walk into range that really doesn't blend well with multi-hour dungeons that dragged the overall experience down for me.
Or getting stuck in a corner and needing to destealth to get back into position due to the weird positioning of some hiding spots while having to wait for an enemy to walk to where they won't see you when you leave stealth.
Its certaintly bothered me less as the game went on and I got a better handle on how fine you can cut things and which hiding places are likely to get you "stuck" but first impressions last and mine was that 5 overvalued atmosphere compared to flow.
Dragon1893
Member
The random dungeons in P3 and P4 never bothered me much but saying it's better to have those than the dungeons in P5, especially after all these years of people complaining about them, completely blows my mind tbh.
I'd be pretty frustrated if I was a game designer at Atlus lol, since clearly a lot of thought went into them. It's such a tremendous upgrade over the previous 2 games.
Love that P4/P5 artwork, really digging how every single character is portraiyed, dude nailed it.
I'd be pretty frustrated if I was a game designer at Atlus lol, since clearly a lot of thought went into them. It's such a tremendous upgrade over the previous 2 games.
Love that P4/P5 artwork, really digging how every single character is portraiyed, dude nailed it.