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[RagnarokX]

I am a behavior therapist that works with children that have autism. We do not use punishment at all. The research says that punishment isn't very effective for changing behaviors and there are many additional reasons why it shouldn't be used, especially when far more effective means are much more positive.

For a punishment to be effective it needs to immediately follow the behavior and be well explained. Often people are punished long after the behavior or the person doesn't fully understand why they are being punished.

Often, rather than the punishment stopping the behavior, the punishment instead incentivizes the person to find a way to continue the behavior while avoiding the punishment. Being sneakier, etc.

Punishment reinforces the punisher. When a person punishes someone else and the behavior stops they feel good. With physical punishment the feeling of striking the person that made you feel angry can feel good. Punishments become less about teaching a the person being punished how to behave and more about satisfying the punisher.

If the function of a behavior is to get attention, punishment often gives them attention and thus doesn't act as a punishment but rather a reinforcer.

So what do you do instead of punishment? The main method that should be employed is called extinction. Behaviors are fueled by reinforcement. Extinction is when a behavior no longer receives reinforcement. Eventually a person will stop engaging in the behavior because it serves no function.

There are 4 major functions of behaviors: to get attention, to get access to something tangible or an activity, to escape/avoid something, and sensory stimulation. How you should deal with a behavior depends on the function of that behavior. So before you act you should think about the function.

If the function of a behavior is to get social attention, then you put it under extinction by ignoring it. This can be difficult because you have to get everyone to ignore it. We use something called active ignoring because it could be dangerous to fully ignore a behavior (the child could injure themselves or others and damage property). We give as little attention as possible while ensuring the safety of the child and their surroundings.

If the function is to get something, withhold that thing.

If the function is to avoid or escape something, prevent them from doing that and force them to comply with what they're trying get away from.

Sensory stimulation is a tricky one... more on that with the next point.

Along with running extinction you should also be teaching and reinforcing alternative behaviors that are more acceptable. For example, if a child is throwing a tantrum for attention, we will ignore them and let them cry, and then when they stop we praise them for being quiet and give them attention. Make more acceptable behaviors more reinforcing and the problem behaviors lose their function and go away.

For sensory stimulation behaviors, the way we deal with them is to block the kids from doing them and try to teach them to do more acceptable behaviors that give similar stimulation. For example: some people chew their nails. This is a sensory stimulation behavior. A common way to get rid of this behavior is to replace it with gum chewing.

We deal mostly with consequences of behavior to effect behavior change (reinforcement and withholding reinforcement), but you can also manipulate what happens before behaviors to change them as well. For example there is something called response cost. Behaviors become more or less likely to occur based on how much they "cost" to engage in. For example, if the recycle bin is far away and the trash can is closer, you might be less likely to recycle because it takes more effort to go to the recycle bin. You can make changes to the environment to make more desirable behaviors easier and less desirable ones more difficult.

In short: punishment is not very effective. Even if it was, there are far better alternatives.

 

[RowdyReverb]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

 

[Karsticles]

I am childless. I know it's not an apt comparison but I have a dog.

I whip my dog with a bamboo stick if it starts to go bananas. I don't do this because I hate it. Or get off on inflicting pain.

I do it because I love my dog and I want it to turn out good.

Professional dog trainers never hit the animal.

 

[Acerac]

Professional dog trainers never hit the animal.

Yeah but what if the dog owner is too lazy to research how to properly discipline their pet?

You've gotta admit, hitting an animal is WAY easier than doing research on how to train them properly.

...

Well maybe it is for some people.

 

[Laiza]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

Sounds like she needed some kind of stimulation. A pacifier or something similar to keep her occupied may have helped there.

Also, see RagnarokX's post above. (Excellent post, by the by!)

 

[tonysidaway]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

From her age, I guess that this is a child who is barely able to walk, and may not yet even be able to speak, but probably can understand and react to simple sentences.

I don't understand how a child that small and weak is able to slap anyone who doesn't want to be slapped, or bite anyone who doesn't want to be bitten. Let's ignore that. Suppose you don't have a pushchair and she has no toys to play with, and it would not be possible for one of you to step out of the queue to take care of her. You're tired, your wife is tired, you can't think of anything to distract her, she's bored and she won't stop biting and slapping. You either can't give her a mobile phone game to play, or she isn't interested.

It's familiar. Sometimes being a parent involves being a tired, bored parent in an impossible situation. We've all been there.

What do you think hitting the child would have achieved?

 

[Flo_Evans]

I may be wrong on this, but are there really recent studies on this topic?

I'm asking because I think studies that deal with this would actually be like.... super illegal, because it's pretty unethical to experiment on children (to take a group of kids and use physical punishment on them and take another and not use).

I’m not sure exactly what people are claiming studies show it “doesn’t work” and what kind of time scales they are talking. Everything I have read is that there is an increased chance of later problems. Not that physical discipline is not effective in correcting behavior.

You could say it’s high risk, immoral, not as effective as other methods but to flat out say it doesn’t work just kind of makes you sound like you have no actual experience and are not as good at interpreting statistical studies as you think you are.

 

[tonysidaway]

I’m not sure exactly what people are claiming studies show it “doesn’t work” and what kind of time scales they are talking. Everything I have read is that there is an increased chance of later problems. Not that physical discipline is not effective in correcting behavior.

You could say it’s high risk, immoral, not as effective as other methods but to flat out say it doesn’t work just kind of makes you sound like you have no actual experience and are not as good at interpreting statistical studies as you think you are.

Here's a handy meta-analysis that addresses those objections and more.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768154/

 

[Karsticles]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

In these situations it's important to recognize the issue. I'm not sure what that is because I do not know your child. But in situations where there's a long line, my wife usually waits in the line and I take my son (2 years old) on a walk. It might be a walk around the room, around the building, or around the neighborhood, but it solves the problem.

Sounds like she needed some kind of stimulation. A pacifier or something similar to keep her occupied may have helped there.

Also, see RagnarokX's post above. (Excellent post, by the by!)

LOL, a pacifier?

 

[RowdyReverb]

Sounds like she needed some kind of stimulation. A pacifier or something similar to keep her occupied may have helped there.

Also, see RagnarokX's post above. (Excellent post, by the by!)

I wish she liked pacifiers, but she never got into them. Usually a distraction would be ideal, but our specific situation required that we pack all her toys and things in our luggage as we proceeded through security checks. It was really such a shitty situation and I felt completely unable to communicate to her that hurting another person is wrong and not at all funny.

From her age, I guess that this is a child who is barely able to walk, and may not yet even be able to speak, but probably can understand and react to simple sentences.

I don't understand how a child that small and weak is able to slap anyone who doesn't want to be slapped, or bite anyone who doesn't want to be bitten. Let's ignore that. Suppose you don't have a pushchair and she has no toys to play with, and it would not be possible for one of you to step out of the queue to take care of her. You're tired, your wife is tired, you can't think of anything to distract her, she's bored and she won't stop biting and slapping. You either can't give her a mobile phone game to play, or she isn't interested.

It's familiar. Sometimes being a parent involves being a tired, bored parent in an impossible situation. We've all been there.

What do you think hitting the child would have achieved?

Dude, she’s nearly 2. I’m not sure why you’d assume she can barely speak/walk. She can speak in 2-word sentences and she is able to not only walk, but run. The problem was that she was insistent on hitting or biting us and trying to stop her only seemed to encourage the behavior. Given our situation, bags packed, awaiting security screen, we had no tools for distracting her from this new, highly entertaining practice. We were at a total loss for trying to discourage this behavior and it was frankly humiliating to have her behave this way around so many strangers that corporal punishment seemed like the only feasible option as there was no other way to explain to her that this behavior is wrong.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Here's a handy meta-analysis that addresses those objections and more.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768154/

Again, that analysis handwaves immediate results and focuses on long term outcomes. It is literally impossible to account for all of the variables and to reach the conclusion spanking directly leads to adult psychological problems is very bad science.

It is a risk but so is everything else. Timeouts and yelling can just as easily damage a child’s fragile psyche.

I will say personally having experienced it myself I do not spank my children. I think there are better ways, but to claim it’s ineffectual is just flat out false.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

I wish she liked pacifiers, but she never got into them. Usually a distraction would be ideal, but our specific situation required that we pack all her toys and things in our luggage as we proceeded through security checks. It was really such a shitty situation and I felt completely unable to communicate to her that hurting another person is wrong and not at all funny.

Dude, she’s nearly 2. I’m not sure why you’d assume she can barely speak/walk. She can speak in 2-word sentences and she is able to not only walk, but run. The problem was that she was insistent on hitting or biting us and trying to stop her only seemed to encourage the behavior. Given our situation, bags packed, awaiting security screen, we had no tools for distracting her from this new, highly entertaining practice. We were at a total loss for trying to discourage this behavior and it was frankly humiliating to have her behave this way around so many strangers that corporal punishment seemed like the only feasible option as there was no other way to explain to her that this behavior is wrong.

Spanking in a line in public is really not a great idea. It'll just make them scream and make some people freak out. In a situation like that, I'd restrain the kid and make them look me right in the eyes and very forcefully reply "No! No biting!" while looking very stern. It usually works, but apparently I look pretty scary when I look stern. Trying to bounce them around and distract them is useful too, like others said. Lift them in the air, put them on the ground and hold their arm and spin them in place like dancing. When all else fails, you just gotta put them down, hold on and let them scream. It sucks, but sometimes you have no choice.

 

[Dipper145]

What do you think hitting the child would have achieved?

I think the goal would have been to stop the child from doing their current behavior. Replacing the kicking and biting of the parents with whatever the childs other response to a spanking would have been. I mean I don't think you could really just spank a child in public in a line at an airport anyway. But the goal of it in that situation seems pretty well understood even by you, since you provided alternatives of changing the current behavior into something else through other methods.

I don't understand your question here, and you don't even answer his question. Aside from extending the scenario to a hypothetical, which comes across as a condescending method to offer alternative solutions to physical punishment.

I don't think physical punishment on children is appropriate in any scenario, but I can certainly understand why people resort to it.

 

[mantidor]

What is so difficult to comprehend about the idea that someone having power over others inherently necessitates that that power must be used responsibly?

I mean, that's the whole reason we condemn things like student-teacher or boss-subordinate sexual relationships, or things like men beating their wives - because that is an abuse of power.

This is literally why people who advocate for corporal punishment as discipline advocate for, your power is used "responsibly", we are not talking here about children abusers who do not care about the children in question, we are talking about people who think corporal punishment will help children.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Taking away things they like works. Like TV time or playtime or even freedom in the case of timeouts.

It actually works for not just kids. People who have something to lose won't do things that cause them to lose those things they value, if they're smart.

I don't think physical harm really works, but there are situations that call for physical restraint.

 

[RagnarokX]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

Well, based on your description I would think that the behavior was to get attention. Your reaction to her behavior was reinforcing it because she found it funny. The best way to handle it would have been to block her from doing it and not give any attention for the behavior and give her attention when she's not doing it. Behavior stops getting a reaction, behavior stops being worth doing. Redirect the behavior to an enjoyable alternative like playing with a toy.

 

[depths20XX]

It was always my mom who doled out the punishment to me, like the OP. Belts, wooden spoons, whatever. My dad just seemed to go along with it. I think it only created a sense of resentment in me rather than much learning. At that age, things like that can be more confusing than a learning experience.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

It was always my mom who doled out the punishment to me, like the OP. Belts, wooden spoons, whatever. My dad just seemed to go along with it. I think it only created a sense of resentment in me rather than much learning. At that age, things like that can be more confusing than a learning experience.

My parents actually very rarely spanked us, and when they did, I don't recall much pain. My father usually did it, and a few times when his temper got out of control, he slammed me against a wall and would yell in my face. Strangely enough, I probably resent my mother more despite this because she would often turn to emotional cues and say things that I thought were very cruel. Like the time she locked me out of the house and told me to find another home. It's literally the acts of non-violence that has followed me into adulthood that I think has brought me the most harm. Just thinking about it makes me feel a little frustrated whereas the violence doesn't even register on a personal level. Anecdotes and all, but yeah.

To be fair, I have a decent relationship with my mom now. It's like she became a different person when we all grew up.

 

[depths20XX]

To be fair, I have a decent relationship with my mom now. It's like she became a different person when we all grew up.

Oh for sure. I definitely remember the times my mom screamed at me more than getting spanked or whatever. The physical pain was relatively harmless. Once I was of age and moved out we had a much better relationship. It's strange to think back on.

 

[Paine1791]

I am childless. I know it's not an apt comparison but I have a dog.

I whip my dog with a bamboo stick if it starts to go bananas. I don't do this because I hate it. Or get off on inflicting pain.

I do it because I love my dog and I want it to turn out good.

The way you treat this dog is truly awful and shameful. I implore you to look into the literature not only on corporal punishment but animal ethics.

Here are some links that merely scratch the surface: http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/why-you-should-never-hit-your-dog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/animals/

 

[ShironRedshift]

Well, based on your description I would think that the behavior was to get attention. Your reaction to her behavior was reinforcing it because she found it funny. The best way to handle it would have been to block her from doing it and not give any attention for the behavior and give her attention when she's not doing it. Behavior stops getting a reaction, behavior stops being worth doing. Redirect the behavior to an enjoyable alternative like playing with a toy.

I agree with this. Especially with the bit about talking to her sternly making her think it's even more fun, it seems very likely she was seeking attention. So that being the case, the best thing to do is to not give her any attention when she's engaging in that behavior, and rewarding her with attention when she stops and behaves.

Of course, I understand that in a situation like that, just flat out ignoring her might really, really suck, especially with this being in public and having fears of everyone watching and judging you if you just ignore her acting like that. But no matter how much it sucks, it's still the best option since you have to target the function of the behavior to stop it. Since the function of the behavior is to get attention, the way to stop it is to flat out ignore it, no matter how much that sucks. Any other approach will have limited effectiveness at best since no matter what you do, if you acknowledge the behavior, you're giving her attention, which will just reinforce it instead of getting rid of it, leading to limited effectiveness at best. So, I definitely agree with Ragnarok here.

And one more thing with something like this is, no matter what you decide, you have to be consistent with how you choose to handle behavior like this. Consistency is HUGE, one of the most important factors in fact. If you treat the behavior one way on one instance, and treat it completely differently on a different instance, that just teachers children that there's a chance that they can get what they want, even if that chance is low, and that's what they'll zero in on, and so they'll keep aiming for that chance, however low it might be.

Of course, it's naturally incredibly difficult to be consistent, even on the best days. It's one of the hardest parts of being a parent or watching children. But nonetheless, it remains one of the most important because if you're inconsistent, that's indirectly treating children to treat the situation just like a game and to keep "playing" until they get whatever it is that they want. So it's important to make sure that they know that that's not possible and won't happen, no matter how many times they try.

Point being, whatever you decide, the most important thing is to stick with whatever that thing is and don't hesitate or flip-flop between different methods so that she knows exactly what will happen every time she acts that way and doesn't think she can keep doing it until she gets her way. That is, that she'll develop a consistent expectation for exactly what will happen any time she may act that way in the future and won't be confused or think she can get a different result by continuing. It's not easy, and may suck in the short-term, but you can do it and it's definitely worth it.

 

[Messofanego]

I was faced with a difficult situation yesterday with my 21 month old. My wife and I were holding her waiting in an abysmally long TSA line at the airport, and my daughter decides that it’s funny to slap and/or bite my wife and me. Normally we’re able to steer her away from that with timeout or taking a toy away, but we literally had no ammunition in this scenario and there was nowhere for us to go in this mass of people in a winding line. We spoke to her sternly or restrained her, but she just thought that made it more fun. I’ve never been more tempted to spank her, but we’re really trying to avoid that.

What would you do in this situation?

You mentioned the abysmally long line so it's clear she is bored and therefore is finding something to do. The closest thing is her mom and dad, so she'll play with them and her form of play is biting. She needs something to do, so a walk around the airport, having some food to bite on, a phone to play with, or some other distraction would be required. Restraining and saying stop that doesn't get to the root of the problem which is her boredom and exploring why she would bite someone. Obviously if she was old enough to talk, it'd be easier to find out but until then you have to try other methods. Hitting her isn't going to solve the problem. It won't help explain to her that this is a wrong behaviour. Especially at that crucial learning age.

Does the biting actually hurt you? Sometimes withstanding it and ignoring it might give the message that if she doesn't get attention from biting but from other positive behaviour, then she'll give it up.

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

I cut off my son's hand for stealing. He no longer tries to take my fries at McDonalds, so YOU tell ME, OP.

Spoiler

dont hit your kids guys, they'll suffer and grow up with to do the same

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Please try your hardest not to hit your kids, guys. Growing up with this kind of punishment, it doesn't teach the lessons you think it does. I was fortunate enough to figure out why my parents thought to use this kind of punishment in the first place and corrected my behaviors for them, but the mental and emotional scars have followed me to adulthood. More importantly, it was never about learning what's good and bad behavior, but rather what's behavior that should be done away from certain people.

Physical punishment doesn't work, and the worst-case scenario is your kids walk a self-destructive path.

 

[Thornton Reed]

All the parents in this thread need to read this book.

I was brought up thinking a slap for bad behaviour was normal. My wife was also smacked as a kid. When the discussion came round to whether we smack our son I was all for it and my wife was dead against it as it had such a negative affect on her life. She wasn’t beaten or even smacked regularly but it left a lasting negative experience. We then read that book which covers smacking and it explains why smacking is so bad as a form of discipline as it can leave lasting damage and create insecure kids who are frightened of their parents. After reading the book and speaking with my wife I’d never smack George. I’ll be honest I’ve been close when he’s really tested me as that’s my default programming from when I was a kid

 

[RagnarokX]

I agree with this. Especially with the bit about talking to her sternly making her think it's even more fun, it seems very likely she was seeking attention. So that being the case, the best thing to do is to not give her any attention when she's engaging in that behavior, and rewarding her with attention when she stops and behaves.

Of course, I understand that in a situation like that, just flat out ignoring her might really, really suck, especially with this being in public and having fears of everyone watching and judging you if you just ignore her acting like that. But no matter how much it sucks, it's still the best option since you have to target the function of the behavior to stop it. Since the function of the behavior is to get attention, the way to stop it is to flat out ignore it, no matter how much that sucks. Any other approach will have limited effectiveness at best since no matter what you do, if you acknowledge the behavior, you're giving her attention, which will just reinforce it instead of getting rid of it, leading to limited effectiveness at best. So, I definitely agree with Ragnarok here.

And one more thing with something like this is, no matter what you decide, you have to be consistent with how you choose to handle behavior like this. Consistency is HUGE, one of the most important factors in fact. If you treat the behavior one way on one instance, and treat it completely differently on a different instance, that just teachers children that there's a chance that they can get what they want, even if that chance is low, and that's what they'll zero in on, and so they'll keep aiming for that chance, however low it might be.

Of course, it's naturally incredibly difficult to be consistent, even on the best days. It's one of the hardest parts of being a parent or watching children. But nonetheless, it remains one of the most important because if you're inconsistent, that's indirectly treating children to treat the situation just like a game and to keep "playing" until they get whatever it is that they want. So it's important to make sure that they know that that's not possible and won't happen, no matter how many times they try.

Point being, whatever you decide, the most important thing is to stick with whatever that thing is and don't hesitate or flip-flop between different methods so that she knows exactly what will happen every time she acts that way and doesn't think she can keep doing it until she gets her way. That is, that she'll develop a consistent expectation for exactly what will happen any time she may act that way in the future and won't be confused or think she can get a different result by continuing. It's not easy, and may suck in the short-term, but you can do it and it's definitely worth it.

Yeah. I should mention that when you put a behavior under extinction it will likely increase in intensity before it goes away. This is what we call an "extinction burst". It's important that you don't give in and reinforce the behavior during an extinction burst because then the more intense level of the behavior will become the default level and thus you've made the behavior worse. This is why consistency is important.

In this particular example, though, I think you could avoid an extinction burst quite easily. What you would do is ignore the behavior, and when she's not doing it immediately give her the attention she wants and redirect her to a different activity that keeps her occupied. Get her mind off of what she was doing and get her engaged in something more reinforcing. She'll be getting what she wanted so there shouldn't be an extinction burst.

 

[tonysidaway]

Dude, she’s nearly 2. I’m not sure why you’d assume she can barely speak/walk. She can speak in 2-word sentences and she is able to not only walk, but run. The problem was that she was insistent on hitting or biting us and trying to stop her only seemed to encourage the behavior. Given our situation, bags packed, awaiting security screen, we had no tools for distracting her from this new, highly entertaining practice. We were at a total loss for trying to discourage this behavior and it was frankly humiliating to have her behave this way around so many strangers that corporal punishment seemed like the only feasible option as there was no other way to explain to her that this behavior is wrong.

As I said above, every parent has been tired, without resources and out of ideas. What do you think hitting the child would have achieved in this situation? I ask because I don't understand what made you think this was a situation that called for hitting.

 

[tonysidaway]

Again, that analysis handwaves immediate results and focuses on long term outcomes.

Well yes, obviously. The long term outcomes are the ones that matter. If you analysed a strategy of dipping into your savings every time you need to pay your grocery bill, the short term outcome is simply splendid because you'll have tonnes of money all the time. But in the long term you'll still be poor when your savings run out. Long term outcomes are what matters.

Timeouts and yelling can just as easily damage a child’s fragile psyche.

Yes, I agree. Punishment in general is a questionable tool, and I've never found it useful. But this thread is about whether hitting works. It doesn't.

 

[RowdyReverb]

Well, based on your description I would think that the behavior was to get attention. Your reaction to her behavior was reinforcing it because she found it funny. The best way to handle it would have been to block her from doing it and not give any attention for the behavior and give her attention when she's not doing it. Behavior stops getting a reaction, behavior stops being worth doing. Redirect the behavior to an enjoyable alternative like playing with a toy.

You mentioned the abysmally long line so it's clear she is bored and therefore is finding something to do. The closest thing is her mom and dad, so she'll play with them and her form of play is biting. She needs something to do, so a walk around the airport, having some food to bite on, a phone to play with, or some other distraction would be required. Restraining and saying stop that doesn't get to the root of the problem which is her boredom and exploring why she would bite someone. Obviously if she was old enough to talk, it'd be easier to find out but until then you have to try other methods. Hitting her isn't going to solve the problem. It won't help explain to her that this is a wrong behaviour. Especially at that crucial learning age.

Does the biting actually hurt you? Sometimes withstanding it and ignoring it might give the message that if she doesn't get attention from biting but from other positive behaviour, then she'll give it up.

The biting HURTS! My wife literally has bruises on her shoulder from trying to ignore it. It’s like if we ignored it, then she tried harder. One of the posters recommended setting her on the floor and just holding her there until she settled down, which is probably the best answer. The problem I saw with trying to do something else to entertain her, like bounce her or play with her, is that I feared I would be giving positive reinforcement for violent behavior. I would be teaching her that when she’s bored, it’s ok to bite or hit to get somebody to play with her.

As I said above, every parent has been tired, without resources and out of ideas. What do you think hitting the child would have achieved in this situation? I ask because I don't understand what made you think this was a situation that called for hitting.

It’s because we were all out of ideas to try and stem this behavior and we were for all intents and purposes trapped in the situation. Spanking seemed like the only viable way to “explain” that we don’t like biting/slapping. I’m not saying we did spank her, but it’s the first time I’ve truly considered the option.

 

[tonysidaway]

The way you treat this dog is truly awful and shameful. I implore you to look into the literature not only on corporal punishment but animal ethics.

Good call. I assumed the guy was going for parody and missed, but since we've already seen one proud animal abuser on the thread it's possible he was genuine and felt safe because of the other guy's comments.

 

[ghostwritingduck]

I can think of one situation where a quick slap would be appropriate. With a young child who is reaching toward something dangerous such as a knife on a table or something that will burn them, a quick slap to the hand (think gentle high five) in the moment will startle the child to stopping and receiving an instant consequence. The parent should then talk to the child after about the danger. This will only work if the parent never raises a hand in other situations.

 

[tonysidaway]

It’s because we were all out of ideas to try and stem this behavior and we were for all intents and purposes trapped in the situation. Spanking seemed like the only viable way to “explain” that we don’t like biting/slapping. I’m not saying we did spank her, but it’s the first time I’ve truly considered the option.

Yes, I tried to focus on your constrained situation because it's that one part of parenting you can never prepare for. The child is bursting with energy, you're at the end of your tether, and nothing you try seems to work.

I have to assume that you tried playing the game while keeping the child at arm's length, but that didn't work for whatever reason. I have to assume that nothing you said to the child seemed to get through. I have to assume that all attempts to distract her failed.

I have to assume, in short, that you felt that only one single unexplored option remained. I also have to assume that the situation was, or at least seemed, unendurable.

You've left out the next chapter. I must assume you survived. It isn't possible, in real life, for a 21-month-old to devour or otherwise seriously injure an adult.

The way you've framed this, there were two options. Either you did somehow endure the unendurable, or you hit your daughter. I'll assume you didn't hit her, and yet survived without requiring immediate medical assistance. There's your answer.

 

[tonysidaway]

I can think of one situation where a quick slap would be appropriate. With a young child who is reaching toward something dangerous such as a knife on a table or something that will burn them, a quick slap to the hand (think gentle high five) in the moment will startle the child to stopping and receiving an instant consequence. The parent should then talk to the child after about the danger. This will only work if the parent never raises a hand in other situations.

I'm not the only person who has suggested that grasping a limb is somewhat instinctive in such situations, and is more likely to be effective in averting imminent danger. It's also been suggested that an accompanying verbal prompt, "Stop" would be effective in signalling intent.

Although it's imperative that we start to teach our children about dangers in their environment as soon as they're able to understand the concept of such threats without becoming morbidly afraid, it takes upwards of a decade for them to gain something approximating adult levels of situational awareness. Do primary schools still teach traffic safety? Because that's how long it takes.

I remember the September when a schoolfriend of mine didn't return from the summer break. We were all told he'd been killed in a traffic accident. I went on a school trip in the country once, and scared the living daylights out of the teacher by walking onto a main road at a blind corner of a house. A few seconds after the teacher dragged me back, a Land Rover whizzed by at high speed. One thing I'll never forget is the shock in that teacher's voice as he scolded me. I felt the same shock when restraining my seven-year-old on High Holborn as he encountered London traffic conditions for the first time.

 

[tonysidaway]

All the parents in this thread need to read this book.

I haven't read it. It's reviewed here by Alice O'Keeffe, a freelance journalist and parent.

https://theguardian.com/books/2016/aug/06/danish-way-of-parenting-review

 

[sooperkool]

As someone with grown children, this thread is interesting.

 

[RagnarokX]

The biting HURTS! My wife literally has bruises on her shoulder from trying to ignore it. It’s like if we ignored it, then she tried harder. One of the posters recommended setting her on the floor and just holding her there until she settled down, which is probably the best answer. The problem I saw with trying to do something else to entertain her, like bounce her or play with her, is that I feared I would be giving positive reinforcement for violent behavior. I would be teaching her that when she’s bored, it’s ok to bite or hit to get somebody to play with her.

It’s because we were all out of ideas to try and stem this behavior and we were for all intents and purposes trapped in the situation. Spanking seemed like the only viable way to “explain” that we don’t like biting/slapping. I’m not saying we did spank her, but it’s the first time I’ve truly considered the option.

Yes, when you use extinction a behavior will get worse at first before it goes away. If you give reinforcement for the worse behavior the worse behavior will become the new normal level. Any kind of "funny" reaction could be reinforcing, so you can't go "Ouch" or acknowledge it in any way. It can be really tough. Like I said in my other post. What you want to do is get her to do something else and then reinforce her. She shouldn't associate the reinforcement with the biting and slapping if you don't reinforce her during or immediately after she does it and you are consistent with not reinforcing at all while she is doing it. It shouldn't be difficult to block her from biting and slapping. Just use you arm to keep her at a distance while paying minimal attention to her, and then when she's not trying to do it give her attention. Redirect her to a new activity that's reinforcing so that she forgets about wanting to bite. I've been bitten by bigger kids that were doing it intent on hurting me, but I'm usually able to avoid bites. Of course in those cases the function isn't to get attention but to escape/avoid working, so rather than worrying about giving them attention I have to get them to work or else the behavior worked and got them out of it.

 

[Blackquill]

I see this example of "I turned out pretty fine even though I was hit" but I know a lot of people that turned out not fine when getting hit so I guess that doesn't mean anything.

 

[RagnarokX]

I see this example of "I turned out pretty fine even though I was hit" but I know a lot of people that turned out not fine when getting hit so I guess that doesn't mean anything.

Well, the thing about that is that they have learned through their experience that violence is an acceptable teaching tool is an example of them not turning out fine.

 

[Always-honest]

As someone with grown children, this thread is interesting.

In what way?

 

[RDreamer]

A question for those that do think hitting is a solution: Do you think that other people who are charged with caring and/or protecting your child should also be able to use that solution? Should teachers and/or daycare providers be able to hit your child? If not, why not?

It seems kind of weird to me that some people can claim it's sometimes the only solution, but yet we don't allow others that solution at all. In fact the only ones we allow that solution to are the ones that should have far more tools and connection with that child than anyone else. They should have a much much larger chance of success without that tool. Yet they're the only ones that can use it. It's odd.

 

[Karsticles]

My parents actually very rarely spanked us, and when they did, I don't recall much pain. My father usually did it, and a few times when his temper got out of control, he slammed me against a wall and would yell in my face. Strangely enough, I probably resent my mother more despite this because she would often turn to emotional cues and say things that I thought were very cruel. Like the time she locked me out of the house and told me to find another home. It's literally the acts of non-violence that has followed me into adulthood that I think has brought me the most harm. Just thinking about it makes me feel a little frustrated whereas the violence doesn't even register on a personal level. Anecdotes and all, but yeah.

To be fair, I have a decent relationship with my mom now. It's like she became a different person when we all grew up.

Not registering a thing doesn't mean you are unaffected. We are often impacted in a suppressed manner. To use myself as an example, I was beaten by my babysitter when I was four months old for two weeks straight. I used to think I wasn't bothered by it and recovered.

Then my son was born, and one day while driving to work I imagined the above happening to him. I had an emotional breakdown and had to stop driving to put myself together. I realized that I had dissociated myself from my own abuse. I could think about it, but I didn't attach the pain to myself so I felt healed. It was only in empathizing with my son, who I see as myself reborn, that I was able to actually connect with my own experience. This has unlocked a lot of doors in my psyche, but I don't want to prattle.

All the parents in this thread need to read this book.

I was brought up thinking a slap for bad behaviour was normal. My wife was also smacked as a kid. When the discussion came round to whether we smack our son I was all for it and my wife was dead against it as it had such a negative affect on her life. She wasn’t beaten or even smacked regularly but it left a lasting negative experience. We then read that book which covers smacking and it explains why smacking is so bad as a form of discipline as it can leave lasting damage and create insecure kids who are frightened of their parents. After reading the book and speaking with my wife I’d never smack George. I’ll be honest I’ve been close when he’s really tested me as that’s my default programming from when I was a kid

I've had that instinct, too. We are all programmed to become our parents and take on their behaviors. To reject that is an enormous undertaking that most people do not have courage for. It is simply a lot of work to figure out what parenting is on your own instead of embracing easy answers through tradition.

 

[Always-honest]

I've had that instinct, too. We are all programmed to become our parents and take on their behaviors. To reject that is an enormous undertaking that most people do not have courage for. It is simply a lot of work to figure out what parenting is on your own instead of embracing easy answers through tradition.

Yes. You (we, i) really have to make an effort.
All of us. But some are not even willing. With the dumbest reasons possible. And so we continue to breed generations of screaming and hitting Jerry Springer guests.

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

What other explanation is there, then? It must be one or the other, because otherwise they wouldn't hit their children. Educate me on other options, please.

When I was a kid my parents punished me by taking away things that I loved. Did that stop me from doing shit? No. A slap would do it for me - I would cry (sometimes) but I knew that what I did was wrong and would never do it again.

Do I think that every time a kid does something bad deserves physical punishment? Of course not.

My parents weren't lazy, I just wouldn't care and they just would give me a little slap. It's not abusive, just a little slap or a little smack on the bottom.

 

[Cat Party]

I am a behavior therapist that works with children that have autism. We do not use punishment at all. The research says that punishment isn't very ineffective for changing behaviors and there are many additional reasons why it shouldn't be used, especially when far more effective means are much more positive.

For a punishment to be effective it needs to immediately follow the behavior and be well explained. Often people are punished long after the behavior or the person doesn't fully understand why they are being punished.

Often, rather than the punishment stopping the behavior, the punishment instead incentivizes the person to find a way to continue the behavior while avoiding the punishment. Being sneakier, etc.

Punishment reinforces the punisher. When a person punishes someone else and the behavior stops they feel good. With physical punishment the feeling of striking the person that made you feel angry can feel good. Punishments become less about teaching a the person being punished how to behave and more about satisfying the punisher.

If the function of a behavior is to get attention, punishment often gives them attention and thus doesn't act as a punishment but rather a reinforcer.

So what do you do instead of punishment? The main method that should be employed is called extinction. Behaviors are fueled by reinforcement. Extinction is when a behavior no longer receives reinforcement. Eventually a person will stop engaging in the behavior because it serves no function.

There are 4 major functions of behaviors: to get attention, to get access to something tangible or an activity, to escape/avoid something, and sensory stimulation. How you should deal with a behavior depends on the function of that behavior. So before you act you should think about the function.

If the function of a behavior is to get social attention, then you put it under extinction by ignoring it. This can be difficult because you have to get everyone to ignore it. We use something called active ignoring because it could be dangerous to fully ignore a behavior (the child could injure themselves or others and damage property). We give as little attention as possible while ensuring the safety of the child and their surroundings.

If the function is to get something, withhold that thing.

If the function is to avoid or escape something, prevent them from doing that and force them to comply with what they're trying get away from.

Sensory stimulation is a tricky one... more on that with the next point.

Along with running extinction you should also be teaching and reinforcing alternative behaviors that are more acceptable. For example, if a child is throwing a tantrum for attention, we will ignore them and let them cry, and then when they stop we praise them for being quiet and give them attention. Make more acceptable behaviors more reinforcing and the problem behaviors lose their function and go away.

For sensory stimulation behaviors, the way we deal with them is to block the kids from doing them and try to teach them to do more acceptable behaviors that give similar stimulation. For example: some people chew their nails. This is a sensory stimulation behavior. A common way to get rid of this behavior is to replace it with gum chewing.

We deal mostly with consequences of behavior to effect behavior change (reinforcement and withholding reinforcement), but you can also manipulate what happens before behaviors to change them as well. For example there is something called response cost. Behaviors become more or less likely to occur based on how much they "cost" to engage in. For example, if the recycle bin is far away and the trash can is closer, you might be less likely to recycle because it takes more effort to go to the recycle bin. You can make changes to the environment to make more desirable behaviors easier and less desirable ones more difficult.

In short: punishment is not very effective. Even if it was, there are far better alternatives.

Thanks for taking the time to lay this all out.

 

[Always-honest]

I am a behavior therapist that works with children that have autism. We do not use punishment at all. The research says that punishment isn't very ineffective for changing behaviors and there are many additional reasons why it shouldn't be used, especially when far more effective means are much more positive.

For a punishment to be effective it needs to immediately follow the behavior and be well explained. Often people are punished long after the behavior or the person doesn't fully understand why they are being punished.

Often, rather than the punishment stopping the behavior, the punishment instead incentivizes the person to find a way to continue the behavior while avoiding the punishment. Being sneakier, etc.

Punishment reinforces the punisher. When a person punishes someone else and the behavior stops they feel good. With physical punishment the feeling of striking the person that made you feel angry can feel good. Punishments become less about teaching a the person being punished how to behave and more about satisfying the punisher.

If the function of a behavior is to get attention, punishment often gives them attention and thus doesn't act as a punishment but rather a reinforcer.

So what do you do instead of punishment? The main method that should be employed is called extinction. Behaviors are fueled by reinforcement. Extinction is when a behavior no longer receives reinforcement. Eventually a person will stop engaging in the behavior because it serves no function.

There are 4 major functions of behaviors: to get attention, to get access to something tangible or an activity, to escape/avoid something, and sensory stimulation. How you should deal with a behavior depends on the function of that behavior. So before you act you should think about the function.

If the function of a behavior is to get social attention, then you put it under extinction by ignoring it. This can be difficult because you have to get everyone to ignore it. We use something called active ignoring because it could be dangerous to fully ignore a behavior (the child could injure themselves or others and damage property). We give as little attention as possible while ensuring the safety of the child and their surroundings.

If the function is to get something, withhold that thing.

If the function is to avoid or escape something, prevent them from doing that and force them to comply with what they're trying get away from.

Sensory stimulation is a tricky one... more on that with the next point.

Along with running extinction you should also be teaching and reinforcing alternative behaviors that are more acceptable. For example, if a child is throwing a tantrum for attention, we will ignore them and let them cry, and then when they stop we praise them for being quiet and give them attention. Make more acceptable behaviors more reinforcing and the problem behaviors lose their function and go away.

For sensory stimulation behaviors, the way we deal with them is to block the kids from doing them and try to teach them to do more acceptable behaviors that give similar stimulation. For example: some people chew their nails. This is a sensory stimulation behavior. A common way to get rid of this behavior is to replace it with gum chewing.

We deal mostly with consequences of behavior to effect behavior change (reinforcement and withholding reinforcement), but you can also manipulate what happens before behaviors to change them as well. For example there is something called response cost. Behaviors become more or less likely to occur based on how much they "cost" to engage in. For example, if the recycle bin is far away and the trash can is closer, you might be less likely to recycle because it takes more effort to go to the recycle bin. You can make changes to the environment to make more desirable behaviors easier and less desirable ones more difficult.

In short: punishment is not very effective. Even if it was, there are far better alternatives.

Thanx! Well worth the read for the people who are open to change.