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Pimax Crystal Light. Dedicated PCVR headset from $699

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4

There is even a local dimming option for a couple of hundred more. I think this could very popular.

Apologies for the imgur link.

2PRAWmZ.jpeg
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
"Fixed" Foveated.....yah dat aint it.
The benefit of dynamic FR compared to fixed can be as low as a single digit percentage, especially if the sweet spot is narrow. That's why many PC headsets, even premium, don't bother with it and instead focus on form factor and design (like the Bigscreen Beyond).

Yeah yeah but its Fixed foveated rendering 2.0 this will blow your mind, who needs eye tracking! :messenger_grinning_smiling:

No need to panic, your PSVR2 is still fine for what it is.

DFR has clear limitations, especially on the type of lens configuration that the PSVR2 has. Again; most VR headsets don't need it, and it makes for more bulk. But yes there will come a time where it doesn't matter to form factor to just slap it in, and with better optics where it's extra useful it'll become standard for sure.
 
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Three

Member
The benefit of dynamic FR compared to fixed can be as low as a single digit percentage, especially if the sweet spot is narrow. That's why many PC headsets, even premium, don't bother with it and instead focus on form factor and design (like the Bigscreen Beyond).



No need to panic, your PSVR2 is still fine for what it is.

DFR has clear limitations, especially on the type of lens configuration that the PSVR2 has. Again; most VR headsets don't need it, and it makes for more bulk. But yes there will come a time where it doesn't matter to form factor to just slap it in, and with better optics where it's extra useful it'll become standard for sure.
No, they just tried to save on cost by excluding it. I can't believe you're trying to treat dynamic foveated rendering as the one with "limitations". Fixed is the 'limited' tech. Having eye tracking means you can do whatever fixed foveated rendering does.
 
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THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Now we just new more uhm.. content.

What will fix this 20 years from.now is hmd's that are nice and light and superior picture quality to our tv's and monitors. 20k oled 3d displays that destroy normal tv sets. Then used as vr as secondary use.
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
No, they just tried to save on cost by excluding it. I can't believe you're trying to treat dynamic foveated rendering as the one with "limitations". Fixed is the 'limited' tech. Having eye tracking means you can do whatever fixed foveated rendering does.

That's not what I said. And no it's not just about cost, like I wrote it's also about from factor and how how a lens is not perfect (hence the variation in edge clarity / sweet spot) thus DFR isn't always as efficient as you'd think. That's the "limitation" I was talking about. I was not saying DFR is less efficient than FFR.

So again; The fact is, in some cases the benefit from dynamic FR compared to FFR is down a mere few percentages, thus not all headsets will bother including it for f.ex. design reasons (and yes also saving money on something that potentially yields little benefit). That's why the Bigscreen Beyond doesn't have it, YET you can download instructions, spend a few bucks and mod in eye-tracking and use DFR on your own (yes you can do that and it's supported by Bigscreeen). This is not about positive nor negative, it is what it is; Information.

You don't have to take my word for it, there are several articles about this (I'm at work, don't remember what the addresses are) with the comparisons and actual numbers in percentages, just go read them.
 
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Three

Member
That's not what I said. And no it's not just about cost, like I wrote it's also about from factor and how how a lens is not perfect (hence the variation in edge clarity / sweet spot) thus DFR isn't always as efficient as you'd think. That's the "limitation" I was talking about. I was not saying DFR is less efficient than FFR.

So again; The fact is, in some cases the benefit from dynamic FR compared to FFR is down a mere few percentages, thus not all headsets will bother including it for f.ex. design reasons (and yes also saving money on something that potentially yields little benefit). That's why the Bigscreen Beyond doesn't have it, YET you can download instructions, spend a few bucks and mod in eye-tracking and use DFR on your own (yes you can do that and it's supported by Bigscreeen). This is not about positive nor negative, it is what it is; Information.
Why are you going to the "bigscreen beyond" to suggest it's not down to cost and DFR is "limited" or useless? Just look at what this product is. It's the budget $700 "light" version of a higher end $1500 system.


Screenshot-20240416-112705-Chrome.jpg


It would be like trying to argue that OLED or removable Joycons are 'limited' and provide very little benefit because the Switch Lite exists.
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
Why are you going to the "bigscreen beyond" to suggest it's not down to cost and DFR is "limited" or useless? Just look at what this product is. It's the budget $700 "light" version of a higher end $1500 system.

It would be like trying to argue that OLED or removable Joycons are 'limited' and provide very little benefit because the Switch Lite exists.


You don't want to understand what I'm explaining, it's exhausting.

First, I didn't say DFR is more limited than FFR, second I said that the BB cut eye-tracking because of form factor and design because the TENDENCY of limited efficiency BENEFIT COMPARED to FFR. When it comes to BB, this is evident from their youtube video where they tested and endorsed a customer mod for eye-tracking while explaining why they cut it from the vanilla version. There's no use in making conspiracy theories out of this.

Dm1Nkzq.png
 
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Three

Member
You don't have to take my word for it, there are several articles about this (I'm at work, don't remember what the addresses are) with the comparisons and actual numbers in percentages, just go read them.
What are you showing here? That Eye Tracking Foveated Rendering provides more GPU savings? OK?
 
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Three

Member
You don't want to understand what I'm explaining, it's exhausting.

First, I didn't say DFR is more limited than FFR, second I said that the BB cut eyetracking because of form factor and design BECAUSE the limited efficiency benefit compared to FFR.

Dm1Nkzq.png
Because you're not making sense. You're pretending this is because DFR is not beneficial and that it's limited yet it isn't limited and is beneficial. The reason it's cut is mainly due to budget. Much like the Switch Lite might be 4g lighter than a Switch regular or OLED but that doesn't negate the fact that OLED is better and beneficial and the main reason it doesn't include it in the Lite is because the Lite was designed to be a cheaper device.
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
What are you showing here? That Eye Tracking Foveated Rendering provides more GPU savings? OK?

You're clearly no scientist.

Why are you going to the "bigscreen beyond" to suggest it's not down to cost and DFR is "limited" or useless?

It's literally explained in the post.. Again; never said that so I don't understand why you keep harping on it.

Because you're not making sense. You're pretending this is because DFR is not beneficial and that it's limited yet it isn't limited and is beneficial. The reason it's cut is mainly due to budget. Much like the Switch Lite might be 4g lighter than a Switch regular or OLED but that doesn't negate the fact that OLED is better and beneficial and the main reason it doesn't include it in the Lite is because the Lite was designed to be a cheaper device.

You're not discussing in good faith, further evident on your silly attempt at an analogue. Unfortunate, because discussion VR tech is my favorite topic, and I have no horse in this race. My previous explanation stands.
 
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midnightAI

Member
You don't want to understand what I'm explaining, it's exhausting.

First, I didn't say DFR is more limited than FFR, second I said that the BB cut eye-tracking because of form factor and design because the TENDENCY of limited efficiency BENEFIT COMPARED to FFR. When it comes to BB, this is evident from their youtube video where they tested and endorsed a customer mod for eye-tracking while explaining why they cut it from the vanilla version. There's no use in making conspiracy theories out of this.

Dm1Nkzq.png
ugh, this again, GPU saving is rather useless in this comparison, eye tracking is used so thet you dont have to move your head to get a constant clear picture, we know that the saving between FFR and DFR is negligible (although you can be more aggressive with the range with DFR because the whole point is you cannot look at the lower resolution part of the screen). You also get other benefits with the eye tracking such as object selection.
 

midnightAI

Member
Fixed Foveated Rendering.

Basically it renders the area you're looking at sharper than the areas you are not focussing on using eye tracking.
I know what Foveated Rendering is, Fixed is also done in software, what I am questioning is the '2.0' part of it which sounds like its doing something different (which I doubt it is)

Edit: also FFR doesnt use eye tracking, its fixed, it renders the center of the screen in native resolution then away from the center, (in your peripheral vision) you can then have regions (usually 3) of differing resolutions going lower towards the outer edge
 
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nemiroff

Gold Member
ugh, this again, GPU saving is rather useless in this comparison, eye tracking is used so thet you dont have to move your head to get a constant clear picture, we know that the saving between FFR and DFR is negligible (although you can be more aggressive with the range with DFR because the whole point is you cannot look at the lower resolution part of the screen). You also get other benefits with the eye tracking such as object selection.

"eye tracking is used so thet you dont have to move your head to get a constant clear picture,"

And now my head hurts..

No; that's not what we have eye-tracking for in VR headsets, I promise.. It's just not it.

Eye-tracking is purely for performance, period (unless it's a headset that uses eyetracking for UI navigation purposes etc.)

I mean, what we're talking about here is all about lens flaws and fixed edge clarity. And FFR is using this (fixed sweet spot) as an opportunity for performance benefits visually transparent to the user. Lenses in general is dictated by physical laws (you know, bending of the light). You have configurations for different purposes, it's all a balance. And this will in the end be about the balance of edge clarity/"sweet spot" in tandem with other aspects of a configuration (FOV, ERF. EPD, working distance, weight, focal length, distortion, form factor) and this you can't fix with eye-tracking. To get to the sweet spot with a headset with eyetracking you still need to move your head (or rather not move your eyes from the center..). That's just a basic fact.
 
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Three

Member
You're clearly no scientist.
Ironic considering I have a phd in physics of all things.

It's you who's trying to downplay gpu savings of 9% like it's nothing and ignore the fact that you get better eye tracked clarity to boot.

You're not discussing in good faith, further evident on your silly attempt at an analogue. Unfortunate, because discussion VR tech is my favorite topic, and I have no horse in this race. My previous explanation stands.
You're not discussing in good faith here and trying to oversell the lack of a useful feature like DFR. Why compare to BB and say it's not in highend headsets when the highend version of the exact same headset exists in the regular Pimax Crystal. The lack of Eyetracking DFR has not changed the cheaper Pimax Crystal Light's form factor at all either. They could very easily have eyetracking in the form factor the Light version has, it doesn't add bulk. The reason it's smaller is mostly due to the fact that the cheaper Light is wired only and has no battery.
 
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midnightAI

Member
Eye-tracking is purely for performance, period (unless it's a headset that uses eyetracking for UI navigation purposes etc.)
And how are they getting that performance? by rendering what you see directly in your line of sight at full resolution, while in your peripheral vision at lower resolution (and usually blurred slightly so its not too noticeable as being blocky).... with eye tracked that moves depending on where you are looking, so you ALWAYS see full resolution in front of your eyes, yes there is slight distortion on the edges of lenses, depending on the lenses used (the lens flaws you entioned, but I was not talking about that, I was talking about resolution), but with FFR only the center of the display is full resolution, the edges are lower resolution, so if you look to the edges its low resolution you have to move your head to bring that back to the center to get full resolution again.

When I said dont look at performance I meant compared to FFR, the only difference is that the Foveation moves with DFR (although as mentioned you can be slightly more aggressive with DFR as you could lower the resolution further in the periphery due to you never looking directly at it). But its the very fact that it moves with your eyes means its much better than FFR as you always get a clear full resolution view (any lens distortion aside, but thats improving all the time) of what you are looking at without having to move your head.
 
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PCVR for everyone!!!

700 bucks price tag...................... Not really for everyone is it?
The previous version of the crystal was $1600, I managed to get it for $1300 on a deal online, so yeah... $700 is quite affordable for what it is. Not sure how the quality of this one stacks to the previous crystal, but they are quite high end devices.
 
Starting to feel that way. Truly pathetic that in four years, nothing has come out to rival or surpass it.
Come on, if you're into racing and flight sims there's plenty to enjoy. Especially racing of course. The secret for VR success in gaming is the possibility to play normal AAA flat screen games in VR. Not games made for vr specifically.
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Looks like same aspheric lenses as the crystal uses in 35ppd config and same size panels (probably exact same panel if you go for the mini led variant. The crsytal with 35 ppd lenses apparently has an fov of

130°(Diag) 115°(H) 105°(V).

I wonder if they gave up on 150+ FOV because they couldn’t figure out the distortions… 130 is pretty good but the Vert might be more restricting, IMO.
 

panda-zebra

Member
Eye-tracking is purely for performance, period (unless it's a headset that uses eyetracking for UI navigation purposes etc.)
What eye-tracking is and does is all down to the software so I don't really agree with this statement - it trivialises the benefits and possibilities. Eye-tracking is not purely for performance gains, it just happens to be one thing it can really help with. It's also not just a sometime UI navigation thing either.

Games patched with eye-tracking tech can look impossibly better than they did previously - anyone who played NMS on a VR2 can attest to this. No amount of old graphs can detract from that kind of real world experience (maybe time to retire that old UE4 Quest Pro graph, it's more than a little long in the tooth now ). There's so much more to it. Games built with eye-tracking in mind and using it to assist physical aim using the convergence point at the time the trigger was pulled or the arrow let fly can feel quite magical to experience simply by using more data points - more useful data points - than just the angles controllers were positioned. Beyond this simple stuff, eye movements and pupil dilation can allow for inference of all kinds of things such as mood, alertness and thought processes; attention discernment and behaviour analysis are big opportunities for the future of eye-tracking in VR beyond what you've reduced to mere picking an option in a menu or some meh arbitrary GPU saving.

There's basically masses of potential uses for eye-tracked measurements beyond simple gaze positioning, blink state or just not having to render a whole scene at some compromised happy-medium quality (or worse, some gimpy extremity-diminishing fixed rendering which has less and less place in the world of VR as optics improve and inherent edge-munge becomes something that simply cannot be used as a crutch... oh and finally justifies some of the wackier larger FoVs).
 
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coffinbirth

Member
Wake me up when there's new games to go along with any of these new headsets. I haven't seen hide nor hair of anything that warrants hardware upgrades going on YEARS now.
 

MarkMe2525

Member
And how are they getting that performance? by rendering what you see directly in your line of sight at full resolution, while in your peripheral vision at lower resolution (and usually blurred slightly so its not too noticeable as being blocky).... with eye tracked that moves depending on where you are looking, so you ALWAYS see full resolution in front of your eyes, yes there is slight distortion on the edges of lenses, depending on the lenses used (the lens flaws you entioned, but I was not talking about that, I was talking about resolution), but with FFR only the center of the display is full resolution, the edges are lower resolution, so if you look to the edges its low resolution you have to move your head to bring that back to the center to get full resolution again.

When I said dont look at performance I meant compared to FFR, the only difference is that the Foveation moves with DFR (although as mentioned you can be slightly more aggressive with DFR as you could lower the resolution further in the periphery due to you never looking directly at it). But its the very fact that it moves with your eyes means its much better than FFR as you always get a clear full resolution view (any lens distortion aside, but thats improving all the time) of what you are looking at without having to move your head.
I think nemiroff nemiroff point is that we can not "set lens distortion aside". Much of the benefit of rendering at higher resolutions, outside of the sweet spot, are lost in real world use cases. Obviously, future developments will mitigate this fact, and eye tracking will become more beneficial than it is with most currently available headsets. My limited use of PSVR2 drove this point home. The sweet spot is so small that eye tracking loses many of its benefits (outside of potential streaming optimization).
 
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