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[~Devil Trigger~]

:lol :lol

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah I am seeing more and more that Obama is more of Clinton then a "change" candidate... he clearly is thinking more politically then what is best for our country.

What's wrong with that?

 

[eznark]

he clearly is thinking more politically then what is best for our country.

What's wrong with that?

Really?

 

[JayDubya]

the US is a welfare state?

"The welfare state." It's a concept, referring to programs and measures, not a geographical place.

And yes, we have too much of one. And yes, it relates to the immigration issue.

 

[mckmas8808]

There are far better ways to curb immigration, like making it so that one MOST prove he is a american citizen to get a Job and severally punishing those who hire Illegals with Fines and Prison time, and cutting all welfare to non-citizens. If they cannot get a job or welfare, they will have no reason to come here.

Don't you already have to do that with your Social Security number?

 

[Karma Kramer]

What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that? Are you serious?

You sound like Bizarro-Hannity.

 

[mckmas8808]

he clearly is thinking more politically then what is best for our country.


Really?

Abe Lincoln did the samething. He didn't free the slaves as soon as he got into office. Somethings take time. And if you aren't politically saavy, then you might win the first battle, but lose the war.

The point is to win the war. Even if it takes more than 4 months.

 

[eznark]

What's wrong with that? Are you serious?

You sound like Bizarro-Hannity.

You don't like Dear Leader you kin git out!

Abe Lincoln did the samething. He didn't free the slaves as soon as he got into office. Somethings take time. And if you aren't politically saavy, then you might win the first battle, but lose the war.

Yeah, he also didn't want to free the slaves at all. So I guess it is sort of analogous to Obama and gay marriage. However I think most of his policies are unlikely to result in Civil War so he could probably be a bit more sincere in his actions.

 

[Macam]

"The welfare state." It's a concept, referring to programs and measures, not a geographical place.

And yes, we have too much of one. And yes, it relates to the immigration issue.

How big do these laughing smileys get? Because we need the biggest one possible here.

Also, welcome back, Mandark.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Abe Lincoln did the samething. He didn't free the slaves as soon as he got into office. Somethings take time. And if you aren't politically saavy, then you might win the first battle, but lose the war.

The point is to win the war. Even if it takes more than 4 months.

lol... Obama ran on the promise that he wouldn't be like other politicians, he was "change."

He's doing a good job, but honestly I think if he rolled up sleeves and actually fought for what he believed in (legalize pot, legalize gay marriage, end the Patriot act), people would have far more respect for him, even if they disagreed.

Right now he's trying to compensate everything, to not piss off anyone too much. A leader does what they think is right, and the entire problem in this country is politicians care more about themselves and their second term, then standing up for the constitution and fighting for what they believe in.

 

[APF]

He's doing a good job, but honestly I think if he rolled up sleeves and actually fought for what he believed in (legalize pot, legalize gay marriage, end the Patriot act), people would have far more respect for him, even if they disagreed.

?? Why do people ascribe all these beliefs to Obama?

 

[PantherLotus]

?? Why do people ascribe all these beliefs to Obama?

because he's making all our other populist dreams come true?

 

[Karma Kramer]

?? Why do people ascribe all these beliefs to Obama?

Because these policies are the Reagan-Conservative policies that Obama has been against for a long time. You don't think he isn't a man of civil rights? Please...

 

[mckmas8808]

lol... Obama ran on the promise that he wouldn't be like other politicians, he was "change."

He's doing a good job, but honestly I think if he rolled up sleeves and actually fought for what he believed in (legalize pot, legalize gay marriage, end the Patriot act), people would have far more respect for him, even if they disagreed.

Right now he's trying to compensate everything, to not piss off anyone too much. A leader does what they think is right, and the entire problem in this country is politicians care more about themselves and their second term, then standing up for the constitution and fighting for what they believe in.

DUDE!!!!! Obama doesn't not want to legalize pot, end the Partriot Act, gay marriage. YOU DO! That's the difference.

 

[Karma Kramer]

DUDE!!!!! Obama doesn't not want to legalize pot, end the Partriot Act, gay marriage. YOU DO! That's the difference.

You don't?

Obama was asked about legalizing pot and he didn't even respond to the question legitmately... that tells me he obviously understands why it makes sense, just knows politically it might not be the best call.

He doesn't want to give equal rights to every man/women?

And finally he doesn't want our Country to follow the principals of the our Constitution, even though he campaigned on the idea of ending the "removal of our freedoms?"

 

[PantherLotus]

Frank Faces Down Bachmann Over GOP Bugaboo ACORN

Michele Bachmann faced off with Barney Frank on the Lou Dobbs show last night over Bachmann's proposal to strip ACORN of any federal funds, by denying money to groups who have any members that become indicted.

Link for policy wonks only. Fascinating video that shows Frank's policy and debate expertise, and sadly, makes Bachman just look silly.

"I'm sorry you don't want to hear what I'm saying." :lol

 

[mckmas8808]

Right now he's trying to compensate everything, to not piss off anyone too much. A leader does what they think is right, and the entire problem in this country is politicians care more about themselves and their second term, then standing up for the constitution and fighting for what they believe in.

And also Karma you have to understand and live with the fact that everything that you want can't happen under Obama's watch. Somethings will be started by him, but not everything will be completed while he is President.

A good example is blacks got freed under Abe Lincoln, but didn't get their full rights until 100 YEARS LATER under LBJ.

It sucks, but that's how things work sometime.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

How big do these laughing smileys get? Because we need the biggest one possible here.

Also, welcome back, Mandark.

I remember years ago that the state of Florida spent something like 6 billion dollars on healthcare for illegal immigrants.

 

[FoneBone]

How big do these laughing smileys get? Because we need the biggest one possible here.

ditto for deriding "xenophobic" rhetoric while continuing to proclaim the welfare state as the cause of illegal immigration :lol

 

[PantherLotus]

Kaine To Pawlenty: Tell Coleman To Quit -- And Don't Keep Delaying A Dem Senator

Dear Governor Pawlenty:

It has now been six months since Minnesota voters went to the polls to cast their ballots in a hard fought election for the United States Senate. No one will deny that the race was incredibly close - but after an official recount, an extensive legal process and a clear and definitive ruling by the three judge panel, it is all but indisputable that Democrat Al Franken won and will be the next Senator from Minnesota.

The voters of Minnesota elected Al Franken, and during every step in the legal process that judgment has been confirmed. By continuing to fight this losing battle - despite the fact that two-thirds of Minnesotans believe its time for him to concede - Norm Coleman is putting his own political ambition ahead of the voters choice and Minnesotas right to full representation in the Senate.

Last month, there was another hard fought race in New Yorks 20th Congressional district. But once Republican Jim Tedisco realized the numbers were not going his way, he appropriately conceded. He congratulated his opponent Scott Murphy and moved on. Now that the outcome of the election in Minnesota is abundantly clear: its time for Norm Coleman to follow Jim Tediscos example. I urge you to use your influence to bring this process to an end by asking Norm Coleman to allow his neighbors and yours, their full representation in Congress.

However, if Mr. Coleman refuses to concede and this case is heard and decided by the Minnesota State Supreme Court, I urge you to commit to signing an election certificate for the rightful winner as soon as the Court issues a ruling in this case. To allow this to process to continue into the federal courts for no other reason than to deny for as long as possible the seating of another Democratic Senator would make what has been a bad situation for Minnesotans even worse. I urge you to do everything within your power and influence to bring this process to an end.

Sincerely,

Tim Kaine
Chairman Democratic National Committee​

 

[eznark]

ditto for deriding "xenophobic" rhetoric while continuing to proclaim the welfare state as the cause of illegal immigration :lol

How are the two incongruous?

 

[Karma Kramer]

And also Karma you have to understand and live with the fact that everything that you want can't happen under Obama's watch. Somethings will be started by him, but not everything will be completed while he is President.

A good example is blacks got freed under Abe Lincoln, but didn't get their full rights until 100 YEARS LATER under LBJ.

It sucks, but that's how things work sometime.

And this is exactly why he should do whatever he thinks is best for this country, because who knows who our next president will be, and who knows how much damage they will cause to make "his progress" pointless.

You legalize gay marriage... issue over, people will move on.

You legalize pot... issue over, tax it make revenues, people won't care and move on.

You end removing our rights AND keep us safe... people will love you more and won't care and move on.

 

[mckmas8808]

You don't?

Obama was asked about legalizing pot and he didn't even respond to the question legitmately... that tells me he obviously understands why it makes sense, just knows politically it might not be the best call.

He doesn't want to give equal rights to every man/women?

And finally he doesn't want our Country to follow the principals of the our Constitution, even though he campaigned on the idea of ending the "removal of our freedoms?"

No I don't. And if he has said that he isn't looking to legalize pot. And the whole Patriot Act is not against the Constitution. Some parts maybe.

And he does want to give gays equal rights. That's why he is for civil unions.

 

[Karma Kramer]

If President Bush can basically thumb his nose at a huge group of American's and get re-elected, then why can't Obama? Especially if that means doing what is right.

 

[Tim-E]

It's been four months out of a four year term, why hasn't he done every single thing I specifically want him to do yet?

 

[Gaborn]

No I don't. And if he has said that he isn't looking to legalize pot. And the whole Patriot Act is not against the Constitution. Some parts maybe.

And he does want to give gays equal rights. That's why he is for civil unions.

*twitch* Because in his view that is equality. Even though it is institutional discrimination.

 

[Karma Kramer]

No I don't. And if he has said that he isn't looking to legalize pot. And the whole Patriot Act is not against the Constitution. Some parts maybe.

And he does want to give gays equal rights. That's why he is for civil unions.

You seriously aren't speaking your mind man. You say you don't but then try to justify why he isn't?

Oh well who says he isn't looking to legalize pot? Ummm he did... and the fact he hasn't done it.

Civil Unions aren't equal... people have gone over this.

And the Patriot is against the Constitution... and he is supporting wiretapping specifically which is against the Constitution.

Where do you stand? With a political figure or with your ideals?

 

[Evlar]

If President Bush can basically thumb his nose at a huge group of American's and get re-elected, then why can't Obama? Especially if that means doing what is right.

Emulate Bush's theory of governance? Steamroll opposition and damn compromise? Is this what you support?

It would be kinda nice if, 8 years down the road, the more progressive party wasn't marginalized as the Republicans currently are.

 

[PantherLotus]

If President Bush can basically thumb his nose at a huge group of American's and get re-elected, then why can't Obama? Especially if that means doing what is right.

Because the 'Christian Majority' is an amazingly large factor in American politics?

 

[mckmas8808]

You seriously aren't speaking your mind man. You say you don't but then try to justify why he isn't?

Oh well who says he isn't looking to legalize pot? Ummm he did... and the fact he hasn't done it.

Civil Unions aren't equal... people have gone over this.

And the Patriot is against the Constitution... and he is supporting wiretapping specifically which is against the Constitution.

Where do you stand? With a political figure or with your ideals?

- When did you say he was for legalizing pot?

- And civil unions are equal. In the governments eyes it is.

- And that PART of the Patriot Act isn't Consitution in our minds, but that doesn't mean the whole thing needs to be trashed.


And I stand for my ideals that are politcally feasiable. Dude he's been in office for 4 months. He has WAAY more time to undo DADT.

 

[eznark]

God damn Harry Reid is a buffoon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_go_co/us_reid_s_gaffes

I stand for my ideals that are politcally feasiable.

You have an interesting notion of ideals.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Emulate Bush's theory of governance? Steamroll opposition and damn compromise? Is this what you support?

It would be kinda nice if, 8 years down the road, the more progressive party wasn't marginalized as the Republicans currently are.

I am fine with the President having an honest debate about those issues I listed... I just think its absurd to compromise on illogical points of view that are against our Constitution.

I'd love to hear some reasons as to why we should have our rights removed, why gays should not be treated equal, and why a plant that does less harm then alcohol and tobacco, should be illegal.

 

[Door2Dawn]

Obama isn't legalizing pot. You can't put that dream to rest.

 

[Gaborn]

- When did you say he was for legalizing pot?

- And civil unions are equal. In the governments eyes it is.

- And that PART of the Patriot Act isn't Consitution in our minds, but that doesn't mean the whole thing needs to be trashed.


And I stand for my ideals that are politcally feasiable. Dude he's been in office for 4 months. He has WAAY more time to undo DADT.

And if we went back to having separate drinking fountains based on race that were completely identical that would be equal too. Except it wouldn't be because there would be only one reason for making a distinction like that.

 

[APF]

I'm very tempted to quote Karma Kramer's tag here. I think you have difficulties disconnecting your ideals from those of other people you admire.

 

[PantherLotus]

You have an interesting notion of ideals.

Yeah, it's not called 'ideals.' It's called pragmatism. Not the sexiest of political approaches, but our elected leaders have to use that rather than idealistic martyrdom (Ghandi/MLK/etc).

 

[Karma Kramer]

And I stand for my ideals that are politcally feasiable.

What? So basically you look at what is politically feasible and then fight for that, instead of fighting for what you think is right and trying to make a difference.

Hmmm

 

[Mumei]

And if we went back to having separate drinking fountains based on race that were completely identical that would be equal too. Except it wouldn't be because there would be only one reason for making a distinction like that.

I've always preferred the busing thing. It's an easier analogy, I think.

 

[eznark]

Yeah, it's not called 'ideals.' It's called pragmatism. Not the sexiest of political approaches, but our elected leaders have to use that rather than idealistic martyrdom (Ghandi/MLK/etc).

Yeah, but it makes him feel better about himself and his Chosen if he calls em something like "flexible ideals" or some other such nonsense.

 

[mckmas8808]

And if we went back to having separate drinking fountains based on race that were completely identical that would be equal too. Except it wouldn't be because there would be only one reason for making a distinction like that.

Good point. Just to let you guys know, I'm not against gay marriage myself. And I do believe it will be national legal within the next 20 years.

Just keep fighting the fight and it will come.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Good point. Just to let you guys know, I'm not against gay marriage myself. And I do believe it will be national legal within the next 20 years.

Just keep fighting the fight and it will come.

Yeah but you don't want to be a part of it, cause its not politically feasible.

It wasn't exactly feasible when America fought Great Britain during our Independence...

 

[mckmas8808]

What? So basically you look at what is politically feasible and then fight for that, instead of fighting for what you think is right and trying to make a difference.

Hmmm

Maybe I used the wrong words, but I look what feel is right then try to figure out what I can or have to do to get it passed.

If I have to bend somethings, then I'm all for that. Of course there's a limit to how far I'd be willing to bend too. But I'm 100% focused on getting my agenda passed.

 

[GhaleonEB]

What? So basically you look at what is politically feasible and then fight for that, instead of fighting for what you think is right and trying to make a difference.

Hmmm

I wouldn't word it the way he did, but I see what he means. For instance, I'm for a single-payer government run healthcare system. But there's no way on earth that's politically viable. Getting a government option up and running is the first step, and is politically viable. So I'll accept and support that, because it's better than not having reform. And it lays the groundwork for my ideal solution down the road.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah but you don't want to be a part of it, cause its not politically feasible.

It wasn't exactly feasible when America fought Great Britain during our Independence...

Are you asking me to personally march for your cause? Politically feasible also includes time too.

Right NOW (as in May 20, 2009) is not the best time to get rid of DADT. But maybe July 20, 2009 will be a better timeframe.

 

[Gaborn]

I've always preferred the busing thing. It's an easier analogy, I think.

I think they both work, I just think the image of "whites only" drinking fountains is still so powerful, and so ingrained in our psyche that it's more intuitive when trying to explain why creating an entirely parallel system to marriage JUST to exclude gay couples is not equality even if you have the same rights. Even if there was absolutely no difference between "white" and "black" drinking fountains except which you were allowed to drink at it's still discrimination, that's an easy concept to grasp.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I wouldn't word it the way he did, but I see what he means. For instance, I'm for a single-payer government run healthcare system. But there's no way on earth that's politically viable. Getting a government option up and running is the first step, and is politically viable. So I'll accept and support that, because it's better than not having reform. And it lays the groundwork for my ideal solution down the road.

Oh don't get me wrong, the recent decision to "end the war on drugs" is a great first step... but that doesn't mean I am not going to continue to fight for what I think is right.

If everyone stood up more for what they believed in, instead of just following two choices (dems and reps) we would probably not even have this stupid two party system and we would have candidates who speak more for themselves then for a party.

 

[JayDubya]

A good example is blacks got freed under Abe Lincoln, but didn't get their full rights until 100 YEARS LATER under LBJ.

It sucks, but that's how things work sometime.

I'm guessing you're referring to The Emancipation Proclamation? Yes, slaves in another country got offered freedom under the terms of an executive order. In the meantime, if you were human property in a Union-allied slave state, you were SOL.

ditto for deriding "xenophobic" rhetoric while continuing to proclaim the welfare state as the cause of illegal immigration :lol

Oh good, now we're throwing accusations of bigotry around.

If you subsidize something, you get more of it. Please flounder about trying to deny it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh don't get me wrong, the recent decision to "end the war on drugs" is a great first step... but that doesn't mean I am not going to continue to fight for what I think is right.

If everyone stood up more for what they believed in, instead of just following two choices (dems and reps) we would probably not even have this stupid two party system and we would have candidates who speak more for themselves then for a party.

This is true. I think the distinction here is more in approach than anything. I support anything that moves us in the right direction on any number of areas - as long as movement doesn't stop there, but keeps on going. See: gay marriage. Civil unions with full rights is a great step, and I support it. But until marriage is defined equally, it can't stop there.

 

[PantherLotus]

Rush Limbaugh challenges MSNBC: Don’t mention me

Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh challenged MSNBC on Tuesday to go 30 days without mentioning his name on television.

“Throughout the busy broadcast day, MSNBC cannot go an hour without mentioning me or playing video of me or having me discussed,” Limbaugh said. “I challenge you, MSNBC! Thirty days without anything mentioning me. No video of me, no guests commenting on me. See if you can do it.”

Limbaugh accused the cable network of trying to “build its ratings on my back” by making him a frequent subject of discussion and portraying him as a leader of the Republican Party.

“It seems that the liberalism that is MSNBC isn't selling as well as they would like because they cannot — from the Scarborough show in the morning, all the way to night, they cannot … go any appreciable length of time without showing video of me, the CPAC speech or excerpts from this radio show or having a bunch of hack guests on to discuss me,” he said, according a transcript on his website.

Limbaugh also suggested that the network may not be able to withstand a ratings plunge if mentions of him were pulled from the network.

“Let’s see if you can run your little TV network for 30 days without doing a single story on me, and then let's take a look your ratings during those 30 days and see what happens,” he said. “Because obviously MSNBC thinks they cannot get numbers without focusing on me.”

 

[SouthernDragon]

JayDubya isn't bigoted and ignorant, it's just what he said is bigoted and ignorant.

I had no idea me and my family came over here for the welfare. All this time I thought they were busting their hump to get ahead.

Seriously, what a joke. I hail from Colombia, and my family gets better healthcare over there. It's cheaper, more personal, faster, and far easier to access. Hell, it's cheaper to get a plane ticket and fly back to get treatment than stay here.

If we're here for something, it's definitely not the medical system. And that's just one component of welfare.

Honestly, Jay, what an offensive and ignorant position you've taken. You seem to be a very smart fellow and I don't think you yourself are ignorant, but this stance is.

Also, we're not a "pest" issue, what the fuck. The solution is not to starve us out, it's changing these ridiculous immigration laws. I find the argument rather similar to drugs, actually; people are going to do it anyways, it's much more harmful as an illegal activity, legalizing it would increase tax revenues, legalized it can be regulated safely, and the only reason we don't legalize it are antiquated social standards.

Current immigration law is terrible. Reform it, and allow these people in legally.