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[besada]

With Cheney's resurgence and this new article on Rumsfeld, it is odd how sympathetic I feel towards Bush now. I should disabuse myself of such feeling.

If you really want to feel sympathetic towards him, go read the Newsweek article on how he's settling into Dallas.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/197811/page/1

He began thanking Bibb, repeatedly, for making the signs. Bibb listened patiently. He didn't mean to be rude, but he finally said: "I'm really sorry, Mr. President. I'm in the middle of class." He needed to get off the phone. Bush replied: "No problem, that's where you're supposed to be."

 

[Stoney Mason]

Looks like the protest was barely a blip.

Huge standing O for Obama.

Most people aren't crazy nutball tea party types.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

but pelosi isnt the only one stating that they were briefed in that manner..

so.. again, why dont they just declassify the damn transcript and settle this? if they are telling the truth, what do they have to lose?

i just find it odd that pelosi is the only one calling for the transcript to be declassified.

Not true. Dick Cheney also called it to be declassified but his request was rejected. As did some republican congressman who actually read the transcript.

 

[thefit]

i dont get this:


GOP leader: Pelosi should show proof or apologize

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/17/pelosi.torture/index.html




er... am i missing something here. they want her to show proof.. she tells them to declassify the transcript of the meeting.. they respond by saying they have read the transcript, that she is lying and that if she doesnt have any other proof, she should apologize.. why don't they just declassify the damn things and settle this?

Its the Republicans kicking up dirt and trying to shape the torture debate as one of everyone being equally involved, the funny part is that they are not in control and if there is going to be a serious investigation into it they will ultimately be the ones effected by it, I think they believe that showing Pelosi and others as just as guilty will somehow either shut the debate and/or score them political points for 2010. What are they going to run on? "We all tortured, see!" How that that helps, I don't know.

I keep thinking back to Mathews last week on which he had Dem and a Rep, the Republican started off with the Pelosi talking point to which the Democrat responded with a yeah lets have a full investigation at that point Mathews asks the Republican if thats what he wants, he quickly starts to squirm and not answer the question. The Republicans are great at running the party water but as this guy showed once their bluff gets called they begin to realize that ultimately they are not in control and thats where there talking points fail, they cannot end the debate because the Democrats would have to end it for them and they really don't want that.

 

[PantherLotus]

If I hear one more asshole say Obama is "pro abortion" I'm going to go fucking nuts.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Its the Republicans kicking up dirt and trying to shape the torture debate as one of everyone being equally involved, the funny part is that they are not in control and if there is going to be a serious investigation into it they will ultimately be the ones effected by it, I think they believe that showing Pelosi and others as just as guilty will somehow either shut the debate and/or score them political points for 2010. What are they going to run on? "We all tortured, see!" How that that helps, I don't know.

I keep thinking back to Mathews last week on which he had Dem and a Rep, the Republican started off with the Pelosi talking point to which the Democrat responded with a yeah lets have a full investigation at that point Mathews asks the Republican if thats what he wants, he quickly starts to squirm and not answer the question. The Republicans are great at running the party water but as this guy showed once their bluff gets called they begin to realize that ultimately they are not in control and thats where there talking points fail, they cannot end the debate because the Democrats would have to end it for them and they really don't want that.

Bro, Leon Ponetta confirmed that they told Pelosi the truth and she was aware of the techniques. Jane Harman has confirmed she was briefed which is why she sent the letter of concern. You can paint this as a Republic thing however the chief of the CIA, a democrat, has shown Pelosi to be lying.

"Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values. As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.” Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0509/Panetta_to_CIA_employees_We_told_Pelosi_the_truth.html?showall

 

[Particle Physicist]

Not true. Dick Cheney also called it to be declassified but his request was rejected. As did some republican congressman who actually read the transcript.

okay. then. why dont they just declassify the damn thing and settle this?

 

[APF]

I'm calling for Graham's spiral notebooks to be declassified.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Bro, Leon Ponetta confirmed that they told Pelosi the truth and she was aware of the techniques. Jane Harman has confirmed she was briefed which is why she sent the letter of concern. You can paint this as a Republic thing however the chief of the CIA, a democrat, has shown Pelosi to be lying.

Bro, Bob Graham confirms Pelosi's side of things. Bro, they could just declassify the transcript and prove whichever side wrong/right. Bro..

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

okay. then. why dont they just declassify the damn thing and settle this?

Ask the CIA. I believe they will eventually especially with Pelosi basically calling the CIA liars and misleading congress. Again, it isn't a good sign for Ms. Pelosi when a democrat cheif of the CIA is contradicting her story, thereby ending her "Its the repubs who are persecuting me" story.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Bro, Bob Graham confirms Pelosi's side of things. Bro, they could just declassify the transcript and prove whichever side wrong/right. Bro..

So let me guess. If it was the reverse and a republican senator claimed that a democrat was attacking him/her, then it would be fictitious but since its Pelosi who is claiming its a conspiracy against her from the repubs then its true? I would listen to Leon Panetta who would know much better than Bob or Pelosi, not to mention Jane Harman. If Jane Harman can get the truth and then send a letter of concern in 2003 why couldn't Pelosi? Jane Harman is key here.

 

[scorcho]

Technically, Republicans are making a huge issue on this. The burden of proof is on the CIA, not Pelosi and Graham.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Ask the CIA. I believe they will eventually especially with Pelosi basically calling the CIA liars and misleading congress. Again, it isn't a good sign for Ms. Pelosi when a democrat cheif of the CIA is contradicting her story, thereby ending her "Its the repubs who are persecuting me" story.

er... the CIA chief being a democrat has nothing to do with it. democrat or republican, they will defend themselves. no? you also keep ignoring the other people siding with pelosi, at this point it is a he said she said type of deal...

So let me guess. If it was the reverse and a republican senator claimed that a democrat was attacking him/her, then it would be fictitious but since its Pelosi who is claiming its a conspiracy against her from the repubs then its true? I would listen to Leon Panetta who would know much better than Bob or Pelosi, not to mention Jane Harman. If Jane Harman can get the truth and then send a letter of concern in 2003 why couldn't Pelosi? Jane Harman is key here.

:lol i never said pelosi was telling the truth.. i just find it ridiculous how this damn thing could be settled so easily, yet they wont fucken do it. if both sides really are calling for the transcript to be declassified, what exactly is holding them back?

 

[Tamanon]

What I don't understand is....if waterboarding is perfectly above board and a-ok according to the GOP, why do they care who knew about it?

Or is lying worse than torture?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Technically, Republicans are making a huge issue on this. The burden of proof is on the CIA, not Pelosi and Graham.

Republicans are making a huge issue of this just as dems would if the roles were reversed. Both sides are politicizing this issue. The burden is on Pelosi considering that Jane Harman has contradicted Pelosi's story. Honestly, do you think that the CIA would brief Ms.Harman with information and then supply Pelosi with different info? Pelosi is doing what she has always done, placing blame on everyone else's shoulders but her own. At least Jane Harman has been consistent. She was against the measures in 2003 and voiced her concern and has been against it in 2009. Pelosi didn't voice her concern in 2003 and is now acting as though there was a huge conspiracy against her and her alone.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Republicans are making a huge issue of this just as dems would if the roles were reversed. Both sides are politicizing this issue. The burden is on Pelosi considering that Jane Harman has contradicted Pelosi's story. Honestly, do you think that the CIA would brief Ms.Harman with information and then supply Pelosi with different info? Pelosi is doing what she has always done, placing blame on everyone else's shoulders but her own. At least Jane Harman has been consistent. She was against the measures in 2003 and voiced her concern and has been against it in 2009. Pelosi didn't voice her concern in 2003 and is now acting as though there was a huge conspiracy against her and her alone.

explain bob gaham, who you have largely ignored in your posts

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/14/graham-cia-gave-me-false_n_203683.html

once again. he said - she said. why are you so convinced one side is telling the truth over the other?

 

[speculawyer]

i dont get this:
GOP leader: Pelosi should show proof or apologize

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/17/pelosi.torture/index.html

er... am i missing something here. they want her to show proof.. she tells them to declassify the transcript of the meeting.. they respond by saying they have read the transcript, that she is lying and that if she doesnt have any other proof, she should apologize.. why don't they just declassify the damn things and settle this?

It is a they said, she said situation. And I'm not sure it will every really get resolved. The CIA could produce stuff saying they told her, but would those be accurate? The Florida Senator proved that the CIA lied about when 3 out of four meetings were held and the CIA had to admit they were wrong.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Technically, Republicans are making a huge issue on this. The burden of proof is on the CIA, not Pelosi and Graham.

Fox News thinks that this whole debacle with Pelosi and the CIA is hurting the Democrats and helping the Republicans. :lol

 

[scorcho]

I would listen to Leon Panetta who would know much better than Bob or Pelosi, not to mention Jane Harman.

Why? Leon Panetta had zero involvement on this till 2009. Graham, meanwhile, has been in the Senate for 903 years and keeps a supposedly exhaustive daily record of his activities/meetings/mirth potions.

As to 'if roles being reversed, blah blah,' the context of this issue means everything. Republicans lub their torture, so what does smearing Pelosi on this issue mean at all? Pelosi wants everything out in the open to let the chips fall where they may. Republican don't.

 

[speculawyer]

With Cheney's resurgence and this new article on Rumsfeld, it is odd how sympathetic I feel towards Bush now. I should disabuse myself of such feeling.

No sympathy needed. Bush was in on things as well.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I think Pelosi looked the part of a liar.

That said I wouldn't put it past the CIA to lie either.

What I think really happened since she all but stopped short on calling the CIA liars is that they were told about it, didn't know what it was and didn't ask questions, hence her "misleading" argument. The people who briefed her probably did it so casually since at that point they didn't consider it "torture" in the the CIA and the people doing the briefing may have supported it so when they talked about what they were doing they probably didn't explain it as "we're torturing people" but that "we're using techniques like water boarding" and in a casual it's all good tone that made it seem like a not so bad deal.

That's my guess. They were told but didn't ask questions. That's also me giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they didn't wait until it was politically viable to be against it before taking their stance.

 

[Tamanon]

Fox News thinks that this whole debacle with Pelosi and the CIA is hurting the Democrats and helping the Republicans. :lol

It's hurting Pelosi, but I wouldn't mind if she was hurt a bit, she's a pretty poor Speaker in all honesty. But it's not helping or hurting anyone else really.:lol

 

[thefit]

Bro, Leon Ponetta confirmed that they told Pelosi the truth and she was aware of the techniques. Jane Harman has confirmed she was briefed which is why she sent the letter of concern. You can paint this as a Republic thing however the chief of the CIA, a democrat, has shown Pelosi to be lying.

"Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values. As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.” Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0509/Panetta_to_CIA_employees_We_told_Pelosi_the_truth.html?showall

I'm not defending Pelosi my cynicism is pointed at the Republicans now demanding an investigation, thats funny as hell to me. I say go for it. I personally believe Pelosi and other of these corporate Dems new a lot more than they are willing to admit too during a time when they bent backwards to accommodate the Bush administration and its policies, if Pelosi goes down for this I will have no problem with it, if she can take Reid with her that would just fine too.

 

[gutter_trash]

pfff Pelosi is just being used to divert attention away from the actual Mr.Evil Chenney himself.
The media jumped on it and so have you.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I think Pelosi looked the part of a liar.

That said I wouldn't put it past the CIA to lie either.

What I think really happened since she all but stopped short on calling the CIA liars is that they were told about it, didn't know what it was and didn't ask questions, hence her "misleading" argument. The people who briefed her probably did it so casually since at that point they didn't consider it "torture" in the the CIA and the people doing the briefing may have supported it so when they talked about what they were doing they probably didn't explain it as "we're torturing people" but that "we're using techniques like water boarding" and in a casual it's all good tone that made it seem like a not so bad deal.

That's my guess. They were told but didn't ask questions. That's also me giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they didn't wait until it was politically viable to be against it before taking their stance.

That actually makes sense. It probably happened in that manner. In the end, this whole hubbub will amount to nothing.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I'm not defending Pelosi my cynicism is pointed at the Republicans now demanding an investigation, thats funny as hell to me. I say go for it. I personally believe Pelosi and other of these corporate Dems new a lot more than they are willing to admit too during a time when they bent backwards to accommodate the Bush administration and its policies, if Pelosi goes down for this I will have no problem with it, if she can take Reid with her that would just fine too.

I agree. I do believe that there should be an open debate about this. I believe anyone who is politicizing this issue (Repub or Dem) should be kicked out of the Senate. This isn't an issue to try and benefit from politically. While I personally believe that a President shouldn't take any cards off the table (my personal opinion) I do believe that politicians who seek to benefit from what took place should be removed. Be it Pelosi/Reed/ or any Repub on the hill.

 

[Marvie_3]

If I hear one more asshole say Obama is "pro abortion" I'm going to go fucking nuts.

Yeah, this is kinda pissing me off too.

 

[Lemonz]

Edit: Damn, hecklers.

 

[KolosLazar16]

Fucking hecklers.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I find it hilarious that some of the Catholic students are protesting against Obama's views on abortion. Just look back centuries at what the Catholic Church has done. Talk about hypocrisy. :lol

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Fucking hecklers.

Question. If this was Bush giving a speech at a University and there were students who were protesting the war in Iraq or Guantanomo, would you guys have a problem with that as well? I am not trying to assume you would/n't, just curious.

 

[Tamanon]

Most people have problems with hecklers period. Not everything is a partisan thing. You don't see much approval for Code Pink here.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I find it hilarious that some of the Catholic students are protesting against Obama's views on abortion. Just look back centuries at what the Catholic Church has done. Talk about hypocrisy. :lol

Many who have a problem don't have it because the Church says to but rather because they believe that the fetus is a human life and killing a fetus = murder. You may disagree with their view however to assume its hypocrisy is wrong. Non catholics have issues with Obama's abortion policy as well.

 

[scorcho]

Question. If this was Bush giving a speech at a University and there were students who were protesting the war in Iraq or Guantanomo, would you guys have a problem with that as well? I am not trying to assume you would/n't, just curious.

Well Bush would never give a speech at ND anyhow - he is for the death penalty and led us into a war on false pretenses. And if he did give a speech, I'm sure a ton of students and faculty would be opposed on such that argument.

 

[KolosLazar16]

Question. If this was Bush giving a speech at a University and there were students who were protesting the war in Iraq or Guantanomo, would you guys have a problem with that as well? I am not trying to assume you would/n't, just curious.

No, If Bush was heckled at a speech, and I'd be pissed off as well. If they want to protest afterwards or whatnot, just like Notre Dame, I wouldn't care, but during the speech, have some fucking respect.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Most people have problems with hecklers period. Not everything is a partisan thing. You don't see much approval for Code Pink here.

What's of course funny is that the tea bagers and the nutso's at an event like this are the exact equivalent of code pink. Something the right wing has been demonzing for the last 8 years they now applaud.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I find it hilarious that some of the Catholic students are protesting against Obama's views on abortion. Just look back centuries at what the Catholic Church has done. Talk about hypocrisy. :lol

Relevance?

The US all but wiped out the native people of this land, supported slavery, operated death squads, overthrew governments, installed dictators, shouldn't then the non hypocritical stance in your eyes not be pro or anti abortion but the overthrow of the US government? Is one a hypocrite if they support the US government?

 

[thefit]

I'm calling for Graham's spiral notebooks to be declassified.

I'm not sure he wrote classified info in them only general things, times, dates etc. The notebooks he went back and referenced where donated by him to the University of Florida Library for historical purposes, I'm assuming one can take a look at them there.

Here, this is him speaking about that Friday 5/15/09 on NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104196363

 

[Stoney Mason]

Well Bush would never give a speech at ND anyhow - he is for the death penalty and led us into a war on false pretenses. And if he did give a speech, I'm sure a ton of students and faculty would be opposed on such that argument.

I'm know it's a joke but for those that don't know.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/05/20/bush.speech.text/index.html

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Serious question. Not trying to start anything.


Is it normal for a sitting president to give college commencement speeches. I can't remember ever hearing about one giving one, except at the Military Academies. Is this unusual, or is this one just much more publicized than others?

Normal. W did it for my college. I didn't even bother going, seeing as I was just getting my AA at the time : /

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Most people have problems with hecklers period. Not everything is a partisan thing. You don't see much approval for Code Pink here.

Ok, just was wondering.

 

[Tamanon]

Either way, every politician is secretly pro-choice anyways. Because as long as abortion is legal it allows them to be elected in times when they have no economic policy to base their political beliefs on.:lol

 

[scorcho]

Mah memory must be foggy, I forgot that he gave that speech before 9/11. Doesn't dismiss his death penalty support though.

At least in the eyes of God.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Many who have a problem don't have it because the Church says to but rather because they believe that the fetus is a human life and killing a fetus = murder. You may disagree with their view however to assume its hypocrisy is wrong. Non catholics have issues with Obama's abortion policy as well.

It still doesn't change the fact those people follow religious teachings that have done some bad things in the past. What those protestors call immoral, the same can be said about what the Catholic Church have done in past.

The US all but wiped out the native people of this land, supported slavery, operated death squads, overthrew governments, installed dictators, shouldn't then the non hypocritical stance in your eyes not be pro or anti abortion but the overthrow of the US government? Is one a hypocrite if they support the US government?

Yeah. Nice try. The U.S. didn't do all of that. That was a single entity along with a few beurocrats that did all of that.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

What's of course funny is that the tea bagers and the nutso's at an event like this are the exact equivalent of code pink. Something the right wing has been demonzing for the last 8 years they now applaud.

I disagree. To me the tea bag crowd are pissed off at the spending. They voiced discontent with republicans as well as democrats and Obama. They voiced discontent at Bush and Obama. The Code Pink crowd are anti military. Trying to demonize military folks, any govt official that has supported the wars in afghan/iraq (repub/dem- now they are calling obama a war criminal). A friend of mine who came back from Iraq was spit on and called a baby killer by a code pink rep. I don't see how the two are equal.

 

[mAcOdIn]

It still doesn't change the fact those people follow religious teachings that have done some bad things in the past. What those protestors call immoral, the same can be said about what the Catholic Church have done in past.

Then stop asking for the US to promote peace and equal rights for all of it's citizens.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

It still doesn't change the fact those people follow religious teachings that have done some bad things in the past. What those protestors call immoral, the same can be said about what the Catholic Church have done in past.

Oh definitely I agree. However, just because an individual/church is hypocritical doesn't make an issue that they happen to be against like abortion wrong. For instance, if someone says slavery is wrong and then goes and purchases humans for slavery doesn't negate the fact that the slavery is wrong, they just happen to be a hypocrite. Same with this issue.

 

[Tamanon]

I disagree. To me the tea bag crowd are pissed off at the spending. They voiced discontent with republicans as well as democrats and Obama. They voiced discontent at Bush and Obama. The Code Pink crowd are anti military. Trying to demonize military folks, any govt official that has supported the wars in afghan/iraq (repub/dem- now they are calling obama a war criminal). A friend of mine who came back from Iraq was spit on and called a baby killer by a code pink rep. I don't see how the two are equal.

It's just so odd that the tea bag crowd didn't exist before Obama took office. I mean if they voiced discontent with Republicans, why weren't they around? I think you're greatly overestimating the character of the protests. :lol

 

[scorcho]

Many who have a problem don't have it because the Church says to but rather because they believe that the fetus is a human life and killing a fetus = murder. You may disagree with their view however to assume its hypocrisy is wrong. Non catholics have issues with Obama's abortion policy as well.

This country has been trending pro-choice, and Obama's position isn't particularly onerous - choice doesn't advocate everyone being forced to have an abortion in the eyes of the law.

I'm also interested in what you believe Obama's abortion policy has been. From what I've seen, he's worked to de-politicize the way abortion has been handled by the federal government.

 

[Stoney Mason]

I disagree. To me the tea bag crowd are pissed off at the spending. They voiced discontent with republicans as well as democrats and Obama. They voiced discontent at Bush and Obama. The Code Pink crowd are anti military. Trying to demonize military folks, any govt official that has supported the wars in afghan/iraq (repub/dem- now they are calling obama a war criminal). A friend of mine who came back from Iraq was spit on and called a baby killer by a code pink rep. I don't see how the two are equal.

There are lots of anti-abortion nuts. The entire tea bag phenonmen is a group of hypocrites that sat silent as Republican president after republican president increased spending and raised the deficit. They are exactly like code pink. Extremists.