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[SargerusBR]

Someone on reddit did an enhanced version:

 

[ArynCrinn]

Well then, no more base-SL runs for you. Or you'll have to do them with all the handicaps that come with being base-SL.

It's still a stupid design idea after the first two Souls and allowing any leveled char to proceed with enough skill. That still might be the case with this handicap, but probably not if the game retains it's timing-based dodges and difficulty. And I think during the beta (already spoke with MartyrsBrigrade99 about this briefly on 360 and PC) during a couple fight clubs. The community backlash to it will almost definitely force From to take a different position on the fast roll stat and eliminate it entirely or swap it for poise for ability to move more freely in heavier armor without needing to pump endurance. And again, just simply bring back the Demon's Souls roll with a weightier feel as in audio to it and force feedback.

So me and Martyrs both agree that a "Agility Stat" would be a better more streamlined approach to governing equip burden rather than it being a obscure offshoot of the Endurance Stat. Fast rolls while wearing light or no armor should stay the same, and we think upon playing the beta most Souls veterans will agree with that sentiment. It just makes more sense for a stat like that to effect equip burden rather than movement speed overall. Equip burden should determine movement speed, which players should have the option of bypassing by taking gear on and off and swapping, rather than a static "Agilty Stat" that determines it. I mean, maybe it is that way already and ENB just read it wrong. Plus it's still in beta. But the general consensus I think among Souls vets will be keep movement speed to 100% while naked or very light armor pieces.

Those are already less viable now that elemental weapons scale off stats. I don't think there's any way traditional low level runs can exist if they're taking measures to prevent beefed up low level invaders. But all that means is you can do low gear runs or something, which will have a similar effect since wearing upgraded armor is like having base vitality anyway.

Elemental weapon scaling should have been patched in Dark anyway. And it has zero bearing on base-SL runs, it simply makes them easy mode runs, I've beaten the entire game with purely ENB rules, much of it recorded, as well as my own even stricter rules that allow no elemental. Elemental was never necessary for base-SL runs, even no upgrade runs (which there were only two to choose from anyway).

 

[Sarcasm]

This game isn't hard to begin with..it just punishes where punishment is needed. Stuff that is listed to me just seems like its just more stuff to think about on top of current.

Should just leave as is..though I expect less cheaters with P2P out of the picture.

 

[Lost Fragment]

Harder base-level runs sounds fun. Base-level runs are too easy in Dark Souls 1 IMO, even without the pyro glove.

 

[Red Liquorice]

All they have to do is add in a ring early and boom you got your fast roll etc for SL1 runs. They're not stupid, they know people do speed runs etc.

 

[ArynCrinn]

All they have to do is add in a ring early and boom you got your fast roll etc for SL1 runs. They're not stupid, they know people do speed runs etc.

Not speedruns per say, more like "challenge runs". But yes, the speedrun crowd uses much of the same base equipment.

 

[Deified Data]

If I made Souls I would get rid of leveling.

At character creation you'd have a fixed amount of points to distribute among the various stats dex/vit/end etc. Each attribute could have up to 12 points or something. Investing a lot in something like strength would make your character visibly more muscular or whatever. Also, the more you add to strength (for example) beyond a certain threshold would remove your ability to add to dexterity. Or even better, for every one point you add to STR, it's one less point available for DEX. You could have a character with average strength and dexterity, but you could not have a character high in both. It would lead to well defined classes. (and starting classes would actually matter!)

This would be the most fair way to do pvp. It would only be about player skill and equipment.

That said, since Dark Souls is an RPG, it's also about diligence and careful stat planning. Removing that sense of progression would cripple the experience, IMO. And what would you spend your souls on if there was no leveling? Because you need souls to incentivize staying alive...

 

[johntown]

It's a pretty hefty, detailed article, so here's the rundown:

• Possible to be invaded while hollow.
• Humanity scrapped, replaced with a single item like Stone of Ephemeral Eyes.
• Repeated deaths while hollow decrease max HP up to 50%.
• White phantoms now have a limited duration, may have to leave sooner if they do too much work for the host player.
• More visible blood stains and messages thanks to being server-based instead of P2P, messages no longer require an item to write.
• Way of Blue covenant summons a player phantom to help defend if you get invaded.
• 3 item slots per hand, 10 consumable item slots. UI is much denser and more detailed, less scrolling necessary.
• Agility stat that increases movement and dodge speed. Existing stats being retooled, such as Dexterity making bleeding/poison more effective.

You'd better get ready to die.

This is great news! My one quibble with Dark Souks was there was really no need to go in human form.

Demon's Souls forced it when you beat a boss and made getting the item pretty rare which meant you either had to invade or coop to get full health etc.

Not sure if I really like the white and blue phantom thing. Seems like I would opt for blue because white seems kinda pointless.

Does anyone know if server based means local servers like Demon's?

I have also heard that backstabs have been nerfed. Which if true will make me very happy. I am not against them or how they were in Dark Souls. My only issue was backstabs trolls and campers. It seemed 90% of PVP was people trying to backstab. Can anyone confirm backstabs have been altered?

 

[johntown]

Also, I hope they fix the save file to stop hackers.

 

[kick51]

*reads dramatic thread*


uh...yeah. i'm just gonna wait to see how all these things are implemented before having a nervous breakdown

 

[GreatestHits]

Sounds like make it harder for the sake of it. it really didin't need to be harder.
Easy mode please? kthxbye

Bai

I'm seeing no negative changes...LETS DO THISSSS

 

[Hystzen]

Best thing about this is thread was all the whining when it was announced that the game will be dumbed down, now people whining it not dumbed down but had harsher rules implemented.

Praise the sun

 

[Deified Data]

Does anyone know if server based means local servers like Demon's?

Yep. It will be glorious.

Also backstabs no longer have invincibility frames and can be fumbled if approached from the wrong angle. Making it tougher for fishers.

 

[johntown]

Yep. It will be glorious.

Also backstabs no longer have invincibility frames and can be fumbled if approached from the wrong angle. Making it tougher for fishers.

YES!!! I will be able to coop with friends easily!

Praise the Sun!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's still a stupid design idea after the first two Souls and allowing any leveled char to proceed with enough skill.

Personally, I think it was a stupid design idea to even allow SL 1 to beat the game. It's an RPG, character progression is part of the core gameplay. If SL1 runs are no longer possible, who cares? You aren't entitled to that. Games should not be made with speed runs and challenge runs in mind. If a minority of players like to gimp themselves for fun, so be it (no problem, I've done this as well), but I won't cry if that's no longer possible because it's not what the game is about.

If I made Souls I would get rid of leveling.

At character creation you'd have a fixed amount of points to distribute among the various stats dex/vit/end etc. Each attribute could have up to 12 points or something. Investing a lot in something like strength would make your character visibly more muscular or whatever. Also, the more you add to strength (for example) beyond a certain threshold would remove your ability to add to dexterity. Or even better, for every one point you add to STR, it's one less point available for DEX. You could have a character with average strength and dexterity, but you could not have a character high in both. It would lead to well defined classes. (and starting classes would actually matter!)

This would be the most fair way to do pvp. It would only be about player skill and equipment.

Another terribad idea. So glad you people aren't on the creative team.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Personally, I think it was a stupid design idea to even allow SL 1 to beat the game. It's an RPG, character progression is part of the core gameplay. If SL1 runs are no longer possible, who cares? You aren't entitled to that. Games should not be made with speed runs and challenge runs in mind. If a minority of players like to gimp themselves for fun, so be it (no problem, I've done this as well), but I won't cry if that's no longer possible because it's not what the game is about.

...........................WHAT?

SL1 (more accurately base-SL) runs increase the longevity of the game and the options for players to take on their own rule sets. The previous two Souls were designed with this mind and balanced around it for NG. So effectively you're voting on the side on less options, less depth, less balance and engineering the non-linear game for ANY SL...and after a playthrough or two unless MP is your thing it's over?

I really wish there was a facepalm Miyazaki stare gif....

Aren't you the guy always whining about "dickwraiths" lol?

 

[Hindle]

No mention of the level design or structure lately. I hope every area is still interconnected like the Metroid series.

 

[Orayn]

No mention of the level design or structure lately. I hope every area is still interconnected like the Metroid series.

I expect some degree of that for sure, though they have said that the world is even bigger than Dark Souls, so maybe we're looking at more large standalone areas like Demon's Souls as opposed to highly intertwined areas like the early parts of Dark Souls.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

...........................WHAT?

SL1 (more accurately base-SL) runs increase the longevity of the game and the options for players to take on their own rule sets. The previous two Souls were designed with this mind and balanced around it for NG. So effectively you're voting on the side on less options, less depth, less balance and engineering the non-linear game for ANY SL...and after a playthrough or two unless MP is your thing it's over?

I really wish there was a facepalm Miyazaki stare gif....

Yeah, I'm the one who wants less longevity and less depth and less balance because... clearly, the possibility of doing SL1 runs is the only way to do that? Facepalm indeed.

Hilarious you would say such bollocks considering I have two PSNs with all 10 slots filled with various builds, many of them challenge (but not SL1) runs, and I double-dipped on the PC version when it was on sale on Steam. But nevermind that, I'm against the game's longevity because uh... reasons?

All I said is that it's not a big deal if SL1 runs are not possible, what the hell is so outrageous? How you go from that to thinking I'm saying "the game should only be played once and never again" is really anyone's guess. You can still do all manners of challenge runs without staying at base SL even in Demon's and Dark Souls. Hell, I'm sure you can in DkS2, it just might (might! you don't even know that yet) be harder, and isn't that what you challenge runners would want anyway?

Also, I fail to see why an RPG being beatable at level 1 is a sign that it's balanced. Maybe it's intentional, maybe not, and if they decide in DkS2 that they won't do that anymore and want people to build their characters to progress (and there can be an immense variety of builds and playstyles and this would absolutely not remove variety and longevity and balance), why is that a design flaw? Most RPGs are like that, after all.

Aren't you the guy always whining about "dickwraiths" lol?

Not quite, and I fail to see how that's remotely relevant, but thanks for trying to change the subject I guess.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Yeah, I'm the one who wants less longevity and less depth and less balance because... clearly, the possibility of doing SL1 runs is the only way to do that? Facepalm indeed.

Hilarious you would say such bollocks considering I have two PSNs with all 10 slots filled with various builds, many of them challenge (but not SL1) runs, and I double-dipped on the PC version when it was on sale on Steam. But nevermind that, I'm against the game's longevity because uh... reasons?

All I said is that it's not a big deal if SL1 runs are not possible, what the hell is so outrageous? How you go from that to thinking I'm saying "the game should only be played once and never again" is really anyone's guess. You can still do all manners of challenge runs without staying at base SL even in Demon's and Dark Souls. Hell, I'm sure you can in DkS2, it just might (might! you don't even know that yet) be harder, and isn't that what you challenge runners would want anyway?

Also, I fail to see why an RPG being beatable at level 1 is a sign that it's balanced. Maybe it's intentional, maybe not, and if they decide in DkS2 that they won't do that anymore and want people to build their characters to progress (and there can be an immense variety of builds and playstyles and this would absolutely not remove variety and longevity and balance), why is that a design flaw? Most RPGs are like that, after all.

It was intentional, read the interviews with Miyazaki and his team. It was absolutely intentional on both Souls games. And plugging your PSN builds gets you nowhere, and on this issue real Souls vets will strongly disagree I assure you. Please, as a little test of that, take that original "I don't think anyone should be able to do SL1 runs" to the Official Dark Souls OT and see what actual accomplished players have to say about it. Then we'll see what the word is after the beta.

In any case, you're wrong. I actually have accomplished challenges in the game and am a proven vet. All you can do is plug your "two PSNs with all 10 slots filled with various builds" and act as though that fits any criteria to being a accomplished and tested Dark Souls player. Leveled up "challenges" aren't really challenges unless you specify the rule set. So what were yours?

The ability to play practically infinite amounts of times at base-SL using a variety of gear and allowing certain things definitely unequivocally increases the longevity of the game and it's replay value. Case closed. The whole popular "ENB challenge" would never have been possible without the ability to run a base-SL playthrough. Dude.

Not quite, and I fail to see how that's remotely relevant, but thanks for trying to change the subject I guess.

I just remembered seeing you arguing about it, when the simple fact is, again, the dev's said themselves it was intentionally built into the game to be trollish that way. So yeah, again, case closed.

 

[neohwa]

please include easy difficulty thank you.

 

[OverBlood 3]

please include easy difficulty thank you.

The game isn't as hard as everyone says it is. It's challenging but fair.

 

[SeventhSon]

The ability to complete the game at SL1 speaks to the core mechanics of the game and how fair the game design is to the player.

 

[Red Liquorice]

please include easy difficulty thank you.

This isn't happening. Deal with it.

I don't even know how people want it easier - do you want the ability to take more damage? Enemies doing less damage etc? Put points into HP, use better armour. That's your easy mode right there. Get some white phantoms in, boom you got super-duper easy mode for babies.

 

[Toxi]

Personally, I think it was a stupid design idea to even allow SL 1 to beat the game. It's an RPG, character progression is part of the core gameplay. If SL1 runs are no longer possible, who cares? You aren't entitled to that. Games should not be made with speed runs and challenge runs in mind. If a minority of players like to gimp themselves for fun, so be it (no problem, I've done this as well), but I won't cry if that's no longer possible because it's not what the game is about.

I love SL1 runs. They're a fun challenge and made me appreciate the boss design in Dark Souls even more when I had to beat them with an extra handicap. I can tell you how to dodge basically every single one of Ornstein and Smough's attacks 100% of the time because I've played that fight so many times for the ENB challenge run. I'm glad Fromsoft added things like the Valley of Drakes shortcut and the Calamity Ring to enhance speed runs and challenge runs, because they give me another way to play Dark Souls.

One of the fun things about Dark Souls is that you can level up both in stats/equipment and skill/memorization. It's a game that rewards you for the time spent on it in two ways; one makes you feel stronger, and the other makes you feel more skilled and capable.

 

[Arjen]

please include easy difficulty thank you.

Summons are already confirmed.

 

[ace3skoot]

This isn't happening. Deal with it.

I don't even know how people want it easier - do you want the ability to take more damage? Enemies doing less damage etc? Put points into HP, use better armour. That's your easy mode right there. Get some white phantoms in, boom you got super-duper easy mode for babies.

NO i pretty much want dark souls 2 without the annoying shit that made demon souls really unapproachable, reducing health to 50 % and being invaded all the time will just be really fucking frustrating

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It was intentional, read the interviews with Miyazaki and his team. It was absolutely intentional on both Souls games.

Okay. Maybe it won't be in DkS2, or maybe it'll still be possible. I honestly don't care and I don't get why this is such a big deal. You can do challenge/gimped runs without specifically being SL1.

And plugging your PSN builds gets you nowhere, and on this issue real Souls vets will strongly disagree I assure you. Please, as a little test of that, take that original "I don't think anyone should be able to do SL1 runs" to the Official Dark Souls OT and see what actual accomplished players have to say about it.

Been there, done that.

In any case, you're wrong.

About what?

I actually have accomplished challenges in the game and am a proven vet. All you can do is plug your "two PSNs with all 10 slots filled with various builds" and act as though that fits any criteria to being a accomplished and tested Dark Souls player. Leveled up "challenges" aren't really challenges unless you specify the rule set. So what were yours?

Hahahahaha what? We're into dick-waving territory now? Holy shit, grow up.

Spoiler

By the way, I have an SL1 toon too. It's fun. But I won't give two shits if it's not possible in DkS2 because it's honestly not important except to a tiny minority of players.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Dark Souls' challenge is its entire gameplay. If enemies do negligible damage, parries are easy, and so on, then there's no point. It's not like Devil May Cry where there are all kinds of combos and things to learn. Dark Souls without threatening enemies would just be boring and simplistic, so anybody who suggests "easy mode" needs to just sit down and beat Dark Souls. Twice.

 

[johntown]

NO i pretty much want dark souls 2 without the annoying shit that made demon souls really unapproachable, reducing health to 50 % and being invaded all the time will just be really fucking frustrating

Ha! That is part I liked the most. ^_^

I would like World and Charchter Tendency brought back too.

Reducing your health was an incentive to play online. Otherwise, there is not much point.

If invaders are a problem summon people. : )

It was designed with online player interaction. Basically, they made it if you don't want to play with others either play in offline mode or in soul form.

The fact that they are bringing back more of forced online is awesome IMO.

 

[Soriku]

I expect some degree of that for sure, though they have said that the world is even bigger than Dark Souls, so maybe we're looking at more large standalone areas like Demon's Souls as opposed to highly intertwined areas like the early parts of Dark Souls.

The world is supposed to be 2x bigger than Dark Souls but I don't see why they'd get rid of the interconnected world. You'd just have more space to cover before getting to new areas, but there may be more shortcuts (you can warp to any bonfire you've already reached from the start though). They said you can start halfway through the game too so I guess you can cross over to a mid-level area from the beginning.

 

[tokkun]

It's still a stupid design idea after the first two Souls and allowing any leveled char to proceed with enough skill. That still might be the case with this handicap, but probably not if the game retains it's timing-based dodges and difficulty. And I think during the beta (already spoke with MartyrsBrigrade99 about this briefly on 360 and PC) during a couple fight clubs. The community backlash to it will almost definitely force From to take a different position on the fast roll stat and eliminate it entirely or swap it for poise for ability to move more freely in heavier armor without needing to pump endurance. And again, just simply bring back the Demon's Souls roll with a weightier feel as in audio to it and force feedback.

I really don't get the big problem. If the community determines that doing a base-stats challenge run in DS2 is too difficult due to rolling being based on the Agility stat, then they can do a challenge that is "base stats + 20 Agility" or whatever seems reasonable.

Ultimately, the developer provides you with a set of tools in the game, be they leveling, equipment, items, and movesets. How you want to restrict those tools to add challenge is arbitrary. You can come up with many different interesting challenge scenarios that do not all rely on being base SL, and you can also come up with scenarios that are going to be infeasible in any of the previous games (like No items, always Toxic status). I understand that a lot of people had fun doing SL1 runs in Dark Souls (I did one myself), but there is no reason to hold it up as the be-all-end-all of challenges when there is so much other variety available.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Okay. Maybe it won't be in DkS2, or maybe it'll still be possible. I honestly don't care and I don't get why this is such a big deal. You can do challenge/gimped runs without specifically being SL1.

Okay, so what were your limitations on these "leveled up challenges"?

Been there, done that.

Oh yeah, and what was the consensus?

About what?

Base-SL runs, and the "Agility" stat's potential to ruin it.

Hahahahaha what? We're into dick-waving territory now? Holy shit, grow up.

Spoiler

By the way, I have an SL1 toon too. It's fun. But I won't give two shits if it's not possible in DkS2 because it's honestly not important except to a tiny minority of players.

You're the one who plugged your "creds" by mentioning your irrelevant PSN builds. I wasn't the one "dick-waving".

But here's a wave for you, here's some of my recorded Dark Souls (and SMB) Base-SL footage (unlike you I actually have what we call "proof"): http://www.youtube.com/user/bethannpoptart/videos

Alt acc: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuY_snDD_vF2UKIT91MCdwg/videos

Now where's your proof of being able to speak to the relevance of challenge runs? Don't have any? Then I guess we'll just have to take your word for it chief. So yeah, I've got video documented proof to speak on these runs, all you have is a forum opinion, and that's fine. But don't plug a "2 PSN's with 10 builds" and no video backup and act as though you have any higher knowledge of this stuff.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I really don't get the big problem. If the community determines that doing a base-stats challenge run in DS2 is too difficult due to rolling being based on the Agility stat, then they can do a challenge that is "base stats + 20 Agility" or whatever seems reasonable.

Ultimately, the developer provides you with a set of tools in the game, be they leveling, equipment, items, and movesets. How you want to restrict those tools to add challenge is arbitrary. You can come up with many different interesting challenge scenarios that do not all rely on being base SL, and you can also come up with scenarios that are going to be infeasible in any of the previous games (like No items, always Toxic status). I understand that a lot of people had fun doing SL1 runs in Dark Souls (I did one myself), but there is no reason to hold it up as the be-all-end-all of challenges when there is so much other variety available.

Bingo. Thank you for saying it so succinctly and precisely.

Okay, so what were your limitations on these "leveled up challenges"?

Why does it matter?

Base-SL runs, and the "Agility" stat's potential to ruin it.

That doesn't explain what I was wrong about. I might have been wrong about these runs being deliberately made possible by the devs (though I simply said I wasn't sure, not that I was 100% convinced they were unintentional), but what else was I "wrong" about, besides simply having a different opinion than yours?

You're the one who plugged your "creds" by mentioning your irrelevant PSN builds. I wasn't the one "dick-waving".

Uhhhh no. LOL. Is that what you think it was? Oh dear. Let's backtrack a bit shall we? You said (emphasis mine):

So effectively you're voting on the side on less options, less depth, less balance and engineering the non-linear game for ANY SL...and after a playthrough or two unless MP is your thing it's over?

So I replied that, since I have tons and tons of different characters and different builds and so on, I obviously don't stop forever after 1 playthrough and I obviously love variety and depth and options. I was countering your inane assumption that I stop after 1 playthrough, not "bragging" about anything. That you chose to read some form of "plugging" (WTF?) into that is your own projection.

But here's a wave for you, here's some of my recorded Dark Souls (and SMB) Base-SL footage (unlike you I actually have what we call "proof"): http://www.youtube.com/user/bethannpoptart/videos

Alt acc: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuY_...91MCdwg/videos

Now where's your proof of being able to speak to the relevance of challenge runs? Don't have any? Then I guess we'll just have to take your word for it chief. So yeah, I've got video documented proof to speak on these runs, all you have is a forum opinion, and that's fine. But don't plug a "2 PSN's with 10 builds" and no video backup and act as though you have any higher knowledge of this stuff.

... I have no words. XD Un-fucking-believable.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Bingo. Thank you for saying it so succinctly and precisely.


Why does it matter?


That doesn't explain what I was wrong about. I might have been wrong about these runs being deliberately made possible by the devs (though I simply said I wasn't sure, not that I was 100% convinced they were unintentional), but what else was I "wrong" about, besides simply having a different opinion than yours?


Uhhhh no. LOL. Is that what you think it was? Oh dear. Let's backtrack a bit shall we? You said (emphasis mine):

So effectively you're voting on the side on less options, less depth, less balance and engineering the non-linear game for ANY SL...and after a playthrough or two unless MP is your thing it's over?

So I replied that, since I have tons and tons of different characters and different builds and so on, I obviously don't stop forever after 1 playthrough. I was countering your inane assumption that I stop after 1 playthrough, not "bragging" about anything. That you chose to read some form of "plugging" (WTF?) into that is your own projection.


... I have no words. XD Un-fucking-believable.

....and I think I rest my case. I guess we have to take his word for it. lol

 

[Morrigan Stark]

....and I think I rest my case. I guess we have to take his word for it. lol

I'm seriously dying here.

By the way:

I really don't get the big problem. If the community determines that doing a base-stats challenge run in DS2 is too difficult due to rolling being based on the Agility stat, then they can do a challenge that is "base stats + 20 Agility" or whatever seems reasonable.

Ultimately, the developer provides you with a set of tools in the game, be they leveling, equipment, items, and movesets. How you want to restrict those tools to add challenge is arbitrary. You can come up with many different interesting challenge scenarios that do not all rely on being base SL, and you can also come up with scenarios that are going to be infeasible in any of the previous games (like No items, always Toxic status). I understand that a lot of people had fun doing SL1 runs in Dark Souls (I did one myself), but there is no reason to hold it up as the be-all-end-all of challenges when there is so much other variety available.

Tokkun dear, that's all fine and dandy but WHERE ARE YOUR VIDEOS, your opinion is invalid unless you have a video of you playing, we also must see you in person in the video (please hold a card saying "I'm tokkun on NeoGAF") so we know it's really you playing. Kthxbai.

 

[ArynCrinn]

I'm seriously dying here.

You play any Super Meat Boy? I'll add you for leaderboard scores if you want. That game REALLY separates the casual from the intrepid. My Steam ID is: Jintek. I'm a pretty well known SMB runner, add me if you want. Got all my Dark Souls stuff linked there too.

Just so you know it's me I'm really linking.

Edit: And it's not that your opinion is invalid or valid, I just personally think you are wrong judging from my own experience with base-SL runs and speedrunning/challenges in general. And I just tried to provide proof of that experience/s, to show where I'm coming from. Now all of a sudden you think I'm some idiot or wrong for doing so, or whatever.

 

[2AdEPT]

I agree with AC, having the armour load affect your move-ability was a KEY piece of why demons was the best game of all time at its inception. I honestly hope that they have both domains affect move-ability (armour load and agility stat). The armour load penalty made things more realistic than having huge tank characters floating around quickly, and they quickly patched out the DWGR which by-passed that reality. Although its hard to determine at this point what the end structure will be I am hoping that more realism is the reason for their addition of the agility stat, and that armour and equipment load penalties still exist. My guess is that they would maintain the realism present in the changes we have confirmed, and I am very excited to be punished by tough enemies, and yet have a way to become resilient to them with strategy; besides simple leveling. If not , hello we are back to the ridiculous balance issues in Bethesda games. No thanks.

what I would really like to see is a truly balanced system where if you increase agility, great you get rolling, but this caps your attack power (this exists in a small way as the heavy weapons hit harder but cost lots of burden.) The most important aspect to balance is the magic ranged attacks...there needs to be more cost for wielding this much power...perhaps more extreme physical defense penalties.

 

[Jackben]

Invaders just wanna have fun!

 

[Durante]

I really don't get the big problem. If the community determines that doing a base-stats challenge run in DS2 is too difficult due to rolling being based on the Agility stat, then they can do a challenge that is "base stats + 20 Agility" or whatever seems reasonable.

Ultimately, the developer provides you with a set of tools in the game, be they leveling, equipment, items, and movesets. How you want to restrict those tools to add challenge is arbitrary. You can come up with many different interesting challenge scenarios that do not all rely on being base SL, and you can also come up with scenarios that are going to be infeasible in any of the previous games (like No items, always Toxic status). I understand that a lot of people had fun doing SL1 runs in Dark Souls (I did one myself), but there is no reason to hold it up as the be-all-end-all of challenges when there is so much other variety available.

Yeah, I was about to post something similar. I don't see the particular meaning of SL1 runs. When you get into the territory of player-set challenges, you could just as well be doing a "SL20" run (or whatever is appropriate).

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I don't really have a problem with base runs and whatnot in principle but I think it becomes a little shitty in a game that hambones the player with multiplayer elements like Dark Souls does to take a SL1 character and run train on folks who are either just learning the game or are building a character that's good enough for single player but not necessarily viable with regards to repelling tenacious invaders.

As many fans were quick to point out in the first game, this could be avoided by staying hollow. Now that it's no longer an option, however, I fear that any player who is unwilling to jump headlong into the arms race of min/maxing from the start will have some very rough multiplayer experiences.

 

[Mentok]

I didn't know there were fans of DS who didn't like the difficulty. Isn't that part of the fun of it? I think it's great that they're building a reason to play in human form (something you didn't have to bother with in DS). If they were doing an offline mode, I would hope it would be like Demon's Souls' PBWT. Something like: Play online - you can get invaded, normal enemies. Play offline - there will be more tougher enemies with more health and stats a little hindered.

Again, not happening, but a developing idea for those who don't want to be invaded.

For those worried about speed runs, I'm sure it'll just be a different strategy, but still be possible. It seems they are making consumables more integral, so that could factor in, plus there are rings, etc.

I'm really interested to hear how the beta goes!

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

If they make it easy they've failed.

If they make it hard in a lazy way, thats purely about equipment and grinding... so that no amount of extreme skill can compensate for low stats or low level gear, so that nobody can do creative naked runs or SL1 runs or whatever they come up with...if thats the case, they've failed.

If they make it so the multiplayer and single player aren't intricately woven together, they've failed.

It actually sounds like they know what they're doing at the moment. As long as they don't listen to a lot of people in this thread, we'll be fine. There are so many alternatives you people could be playing. Please let dark souls continue down its path.

 

[Kientin]

Or maybe the players who would've just stayed hollow will go offline instead and there will be less players doing coop to invade and the invaders will just end up invading each other

Well, I'm just thinking there might be people like me that really only went out of their way to go human just because they needed to kindle their fire, because there wasn't very much benefit otherwise or they didn't want to use up their humanity. I mean I didn't need blue phantoms, I wanted to kill bosses on my own though I wouldn't have minded an invasion here and there.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Possible to be invaded while hollow

Repeated deaths while hollow decrease max HP up to 50%.

The one and only thing I disliked about the entire Souls franchise was invasions... and they just made it worse. Wow. I think I my be done with this franchise if it's as bad as I think it is going to be and they don't do something about players getting OP equipment. It sucks that it had to come to this, but I just can't deal with the invaders and their OP bullshit equipment. It's not fun.

 

[Phantasmal Repose]

Well, I'm excited. I just hope they fix some of the issues that were in the previous Souls games like weapons hitting you through walls.

 

[RK9039]

The one and only thing I disliked about the entire Souls franchise was invasions... and they just made it worse. Wow. I think I my be done with this franchise if it's as bad as I think it is going to be and they don't do something about players getting OP equipment. It sucks that it had to come to this, but I just can't deal with the invaders and their OP bullshit equipment. It's not fun.

Playing offline is a possibility for those who don't like getting invaded.

 

[Deified Data]

Personally, I think it was a stupid design idea to even allow SL 1 to beat the game. It's an RPG, character progression is part of the core gameplay. If SL1 runs are no longer possible, who cares? You aren't entitled to that. Games should not be made with speed runs and challenge runs in mind. If a minority of players like to gimp themselves for fun, so be it (no problem, I've done this as well), but I won't cry if that's no longer possible because it's not what the game is about.

Disagree that From should actively prevent people from beating the game at base SL, agree that the game shouldn't be designed around enabling those challenge runs. The best things about challenge runs are their emergent gameplay aspect, or players making games within the game. I totally get that. But if From decides that base SL characters shouldn't be able to fast roll...I'm alright with that. If at any point they decide to change that I hope they do so in the interests of standard PVE balance and not to appease challenge runners. Honestly I have no problem with the agility stat.

 

[NeededSleep]

Playing offline is a possibility for those who don't like getting invaded.

But you miss out on all the awesome floor writing
Part of my favorite part of the game is seeing other's hints or traps.

Really dislike this being able to be invaded while hallow.

 

[popyea]

I can't be the only one who thinks it would be awesome for SL1 runs to be all about mastering the timing of the fat roll. On the odd occasion I would actually fat roll through an attack in the first game, it was always quite satisfying and cool to see.