Yeah, you can look at DOTA2's numbers literally whenever you want.
LoL has those infographs which could be using some pretty fuzzy ass math.
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Polygon: Riot Games isn't worried about Valve's $10M Dota 2 prize pool, here's why
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
Yeah, you can look at DOTA2's numbers literally whenever you want.
LoL has those infographs which could be using some pretty fuzzy ass math.
Pureauthor
Member
Note that a number of Dota teams get salaries, it just comes from their organization and not Valve.
Per person. Teams get ~250k. The general cut is 20% for management, 16% for all the players.
The only reason Dota feels more shallow to you is because you prefer watching LoL, plain and simple. There's nothing wrong with that, but you're failing to recognize the fact that anyone who watches competitive Dota can easily be as invested in it as you are in LoL.
That's just false, LoL teams seem to switch around players on a monthly basis. Just look at TSM for an example. Dota teams generally have one time each year where they're likely to switch players (after The International) and from then on, the lineups are generally very stable for the next year (or else Valve won't invite them to the next International).
It's because the team that lost didn't know what to do if they didn't overwhelmingly win the early game. They deserved to lose and I don't think it's fair to say it was boring because it was a shutout.
Conversely, I remember seeing a statistic that most League matches were decided by who had the gold advantage at x amount of minutes. Because there's no extra ways to earn gold other than creep kills and enemy kills, whereas Dota has stuff like Midas and Track, in addition to anyone you kill losing unreliable gold.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
That makes the LoL model make more sense for the player who knows he can never be the best. But every game needs those types of players if only to make the top players look better and to fill out a field.
Ah, so at least you can try to make a living!
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Right... filled with bots. Unless you have evidence of it happening, Twitch bans bots pretty quickly, especially in the top channels.
Ratio? What the hell does that matter? As long as more people are watching, that's what matters.
DotA only surpassed LoL once on Twitch with its 10 million weekday final of 500k viewers. LoL gets 250k on less important tournament weekends and 600k+ viewers on their more important matches.
NaDannMaGoGo
Member
Yeh what a disaster that would be...is that guy high?
It may put some harm on the tournament's hype but 'disaster' is a huge exaggeration.
To be honest, I don't even except that to happen anytime soon. Considering the strong growths of the Dota 2 scene and Valve's ability to make attractive Compendiums, I can only see it getting higher and higher for the next couple years.
Correction: there are. They just suck.
Ashe, Twisted Fate, and Gangplank all have gold generating abilities or passives. Also, there are support items (and even a carry item) that gives gold per second.
But these are nowhere near as influential as the Dota 2 equivalents.
CrunchyFrog
Member
If you wanna play that game, one could also note that TI4 was broadcast on ESPN3 and had a championship exposee on ESPN2, both firsts for any game in the esports scene, not to mention Valve is said to be in heavy talks for increasing the broadcast and exposure further for TI5. The viewerbase of Twitch is beans compared to ESPN. Riot brought up some valid points (the stupid "begging" jab notwithstanding), but this is not one of them.
Barely doubles is still double. That's double the active viewers on a WEEKLY league. Just like you don't count people watching from inside the DOTA client, there's also the Azubu and Youtube viewers for League's tournaments. While they won't match twitch, they aren't insignificant because they are linked straight from the LoL website and client.
I don't think the viewership ratio matters nearly as much as the actual viewers. Why would the ratio really matter that much? Viewer numbers are what pays the bills. And it just keeps climbing.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
That is just bullshit. Dota regularly beats LoL during major tournaments.
Shorty11857
Member
To be fair a lot of people watch Dota in game so you can't really directly compare the numbers on twitch directly
I think I read somewhere that TI peaked at like 2 million concurrents or something
I mean, I haven't touched League at all outside of maybe 10 matches. But like you said, nowhere near as influential as Midas or Track. I really think Riot should start fresh from the drawing board in terms of game balance but they won't because reasons.
Beelzebubs
Member
If you're going to respond to some random posts of mine, you should read all of my posts in the topic where I've stated many times it's all personal preference. Even one of my posts of mine that you've quoted mentions "It's all personal preference. I just prefer to watch LoL because it feels more personal." so you've just chosen to omit that part of the quote, ignore it and argue anyway.
Also my mention of team consistency was not false. Poorly worded probably, but as I explained in a follow up post I meant consistency as in the teams playing. You're watching the same teams every week in a league format.
Anyway, I'm totally out of "arguing" everyone has valid points in the topic
Those "reasons" are the 27+ million people that enjoy to play the game the way it is.
But this is a thread talking about the economics and implementation of the competitive scene, not a thread about what is better to play.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
great post.
in the last quote in the op they do have a good point but i dont think we have to worry now about that happening anytime soon. i think the next compendium will reach the same goal it did this year and probably more because it grew a lot and is continually doing so.
besides, the 10$ you pay (if you want) offer a great value making it hard not to buy it. hell, i dont spend in cosmetics and keys etc but i never skip on the compendium ticket. the best thing about it is not that it is only good for me but also for the community in general.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Yeah, does seem pretty fair actually.
It also ignores the fact that the reason why people got invested mainly is for the cosmetics and items to sell. The prize pool going up is a massive bonus but not the main point. That's why the prize pool spiked everytime a new cosmetic from the list was released.
The prize pool would have never hit 10 million without valve promising a crap ton of cosmetics, couriers and game additions. People were not giving Valve $7.50 for nothing but the $2.50 increase in the prize pool.
Something Riot likes to gloss over because they know they can't replicate it with their nightmare spaghetti code of a client/game engine.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
ESPN is beans compared to Korean Broadcast.
Twitch numbers are not a very relevant metric when they don't account for the Chinese or Korean playerbase.
In my opinion Riot is just beign dumb and rejecting free money. Everyone that follows the Dota 2 e-sports scene KNOW that it is VERY similar to League. There are leagues with weekly games, interviews and all that jazz. It's just not sponsored by Valve.
The truth is, Valve spends WAY less money and makes WAY more with it's model. Granted LoL is way more popular with this, but where would all that popularity go if the LCS ceased? Dota 2 scene is self-suficient because of that, it doesn't need Valve to sponsor it every week and it's still very popular (not as much as league, but 50k at twitch atm with only minor games going on is still more then starcraft 2 for exemple).
The truth is, Valve spends WAY less money and makes WAY more with it's model. Granted LoL is way more popular with this, but where would all that popularity go if the LCS ceased? Dota 2 scene is self-suficient because of that, it doesn't need Valve to sponsor it every week and it's still very popular (not as much as league, but 50k at twitch atm with only minor games going on is still more then starcraft 2 for exemple).
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Am I the only one who's scared of this amount of money? It seems super excessive. That's almost like killing someone for losing type money.
And what is wrong with that?
Valve gives us a product, the fanbase likes the offering. The community buys it, everyone wins.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Clickbait title on Polygon's part.
Better title:
Riot Games favours smaller jackpots but more frequent events for sustainable eSports growth
Why the original title is clickbait (since Ben Kuchera has made it clear that he believes clickbait has no coherent definition and there's nothing people can point to when explaining why something is clickbait, it is now necessary to explain the allegation of clickbait in specific detail so as to make sure you're not seen as a "hater" or "internet troll"):
- It is set up so that the thesis of the article is deliberately obscured by the title
- It uses language specifically enticing a click ("here's why")
- It frames the situation as more adversarial (Riot vs Valve) as it is to up the stakes and create tension where there is none (this also entices back-and-forth arguing comments, like what we're seeing in this thread)
- The number in the title is not the prize the article is talking about, but rather an unrelated bigger number.
Reason why the better title will not be used:
Because people are less likely to read the article that way, which means fewer ad impressions, and thus less money for the site.
Better title:
Riot Games favours smaller jackpots but more frequent events for sustainable eSports growth
Why the original title is clickbait (since Ben Kuchera has made it clear that he believes clickbait has no coherent definition and there's nothing people can point to when explaining why something is clickbait, it is now necessary to explain the allegation of clickbait in specific detail so as to make sure you're not seen as a "hater" or "internet troll"):
- It is set up so that the thesis of the article is deliberately obscured by the title
- It uses language specifically enticing a click ("here's why")
- It frames the situation as more adversarial (Riot vs Valve) as it is to up the stakes and create tension where there is none (this also entices back-and-forth arguing comments, like what we're seeing in this thread)
- The number in the title is not the prize the article is talking about, but rather an unrelated bigger number.
Reason why the better title will not be used:
Because people are less likely to read the article that way, which means fewer ad impressions, and thus less money for the site.
How fiendish.
I was clearing up the idea that many people have that Valve was telling people to get the compendium for the prize pool instead people buying in for the items.
ashecitism
Member
Sorry for using that title btw. I know it's bad, but I'm not really good at condensing/summarizing stuff, so figured I would just copy it. Should have tried harder.
theprodigy
Member
Twitch is infested with bots, and Dota (and every other popular game) has them too
What's not mentioned in that post (but which I see mentioned elsewhere) is the equality that a more salary-focused approach provides. A big problem with esports historically has been that if you aren't in the top 10% of teams/players, you aren't making a livable wage and thus can't play the game full time, which only exacerbates the inequality in skill, as the top players can play all day.
However, the big prize money TI offers is clearly a draw for viewers, and brings respectability to the game in its own right. In part, all of this is a fight for perceived legitimacy, and nothing changes perception (particularly amongst Americans) more than money. Yes, girls might instinctively giggle now if you suggest you are a professional video gamer, but once more gamers can say "and I made millions doing it," the giggling will slowly go away.
However, the big prize money TI offers is clearly a draw for viewers, and brings respectability to the game in its own right. In part, all of this is a fight for perceived legitimacy, and nothing changes perception (particularly amongst Americans) more than money. Yes, girls might instinctively giggle now if you suggest you are a professional video gamer, but once more gamers can say "and I made millions doing it," the giggling will slowly go away.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I enjoyed the International this year when I was able to watch it, but I think I like the stability of the LoL scene more in general due to the predictability of match times and such. I know DotA2 has plenty of tourneys, but unless I follow super closely I don't really know when they're coming---and of course for most of them they're at super-unfriendly times for us in NA so it really doesn't matter.
I also like that it's not quite so boom/bust, this helps the smaller teams hang with the big teams with enormous corporate sponsorships and doesn't perpetuate a situation like we had in early days of LoL where teams who could've hung with the top teams if they had LAN experience were never able to get LAN experience because they couldn't afford the trip out there.
I also like that it's not quite so boom/bust, this helps the smaller teams hang with the big teams with enormous corporate sponsorships and doesn't perpetuate a situation like we had in early days of LoL where teams who could've hung with the top teams if they had LAN experience were never able to get LAN experience because they couldn't afford the trip out there.
You can get every single hero in the game without ever paying a single dollar. Same goes for the runes. There's absolutely no disadvantage whatsoever between people who pay and people who doesn't, because by the time you're going to play competitively, you'll have all the champions/runes you wanted when you started playing.
Stop using this false argument, it only shows how clueless the people who use it are.
I really hope you mean during major tournaments of Dota ONLY.
Ugh. DOTA vs LoL fanboyism.
The LCS model is great, and if you're a fan of real sports, I don't see the point in acting like you don't want your favorite e-sport to be modeled in the same way.
I like an organized league, I like that the pros are exclusively part of it, I like the constant tournaments that are all under the "LCS" umbrella. Just like I like my NBA basketball, where there are starters, bench players, trades and it all feels like it's gradually working towards something big.
That being said, nothing is wrong with how Valve does it, since they are all about making $$$ and pleasing the community. After putting over 1000 hours into each game, still being a total noob, I find myself tuning into LCS just because it reminds me of watching real sports with constant games and analysis.
I'm glad I no longer give a shit about being elitist and trying to talk badly of LoL or trying to prove DOTA2's superiority in light of LoL's superior popularity. Both offer a different experience throughout the gameplay and community aspects.
The LCS model is great, and if you're a fan of real sports, I don't see the point in acting like you don't want your favorite e-sport to be modeled in the same way.
I like an organized league, I like that the pros are exclusively part of it, I like the constant tournaments that are all under the "LCS" umbrella. Just like I like my NBA basketball, where there are starters, bench players, trades and it all feels like it's gradually working towards something big.
That being said, nothing is wrong with how Valve does it, since they are all about making $$$ and pleasing the community. After putting over 1000 hours into each game, still being a total noob, I find myself tuning into LCS just because it reminds me of watching real sports with constant games and analysis.
I'm glad I no longer give a shit about being elitist and trying to talk badly of LoL or trying to prove DOTA2's superiority in light of LoL's superior popularity. Both offer a different experience throughout the gameplay and community aspects.
It's a pretty common strategy, I find. People hide behind our inability to precisely quantify something, and argue that therefore there is no right or wrong unless absolute, perfect objectivity/quantifiability can be shown. I would even argue that postmodernism broadly fits this description.
rakkadakka
Member
Comparing Valve to how any other company does business is just silly..
Players: Only a 6 million prize pool this year? So much lower than before that sucks!
Valve: You're right, here's a special in-game present. It's a companion cube courier.
Player: BEST INTERNATIONAL EVER!
I'm sure Valve don't need to worry.
Sure! It just takes over 2,350 hours of your life. That's not even counting runes of rune pages.
I think it's a pretty good argument considering how much time we're talking about here, I would assume earning $10 for a Compendium would take just a little bit less time than that.
But you're right, if you're playing competitively, you wouldn't need every champ, as was clearly shown during recent competitions.
ScepticMatt
Member
They actually wrote "here's why" into the headline......I am sure this is a parody site by now.
On topic: After the 400k+ viewers CS:GO got during it's finals yesterday I think it's clear Valve is doing something very right. Such a dismissive attitude (lol begging) isn't very productive. It's great that LoL has a big playerbase/viewership, but it shouldn't be taken as granted.
On topic: After the 400k+ viewers CS:GO got during it's finals yesterday I think it's clear Valve is doing something very right. Such a dismissive attitude (lol begging) isn't very productive. It's great that LoL has a big playerbase/viewership, but it shouldn't be taken as granted.
Luckily you don't need to have all the champions because the game is based on ingame skill/strategy and not in counterpicking before the match begins.
So they're begging?
Well it helps when League is a much more popular game and it doesn't have an in game spectator mode. I'm not sure you realize how massive the League player base is.
Yet all of the LCS players always have all the champions. In a hypothetical situation, where we have a team with players that don't have all of the champions unlocked, and a team that does, the team that does has an advantage simply because they have a greater selection of champions to choose from. And if it's not based on counters, why are there multiple resources dedicated to counters to champions? I mean, a counter doesn't guarantee a win but specific counters will make things much easier, and this applies to both Dota and League.
The fact champions are locked behind time played/money spent isn't good for anyone. If I had never played either game, I would pick Dota simply on the fact my choices are not limited the minute I boot up the game.
They make a killing. Not just off of compendiums and points, but also all the new chests they put out with desirable items, the secret shops at the venue, and the huge amount of market place transactions that occur thanks to the in flow of items people got from their battle boosters and the new chests.
I don't think that was Riot.