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Polygon: "Solo is going the way of the Dodo" (in ref to huge budget Western games)

A

ArkhamFantasy

Member
dakilla13 said:
As usual, GAF is missing the point. Did Nioh, Persona 5, Nier, or even Horizon for that matter even produce a worthwhile return on investment?

And as the article points out, Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo are becoming the only publishers that can afford to put out single player AAA games, since they are willing to take any losses to produce console sales.
Click to expand...

EAs definition of a "worthwhile investment" is generally a game that sells 10 million copies and is built around microtransactions and lootboxes. This definition is a far greater problem than rising development costs.

They will ignore some money because all their games are designed to make all of the money. Square Enix is extremely happy with Nier Automata, hell they were happy with Bravely Default and Life is Strange.

Square Enix focusing on small and mid range titles completely turned the company around.
 
D

DeathbyCheerios

Member
Games keep getting too big and losing their soul.

Like look at Fallout 3 and NV then go play 4. The soul is all gone, game has too much to do and the polish is all gone.

Then there is all the freaking loot boxes in everything and micro transactions and the pure obsession with EVERYTHING HAS TO BE A COMPETITIVE MULTIPLAYER GAME.

It's sad.

Thankfully there is a lot of older games that I have never touched.

I got the whole Metal Gear Series to play thru.
 
N

nelsonroyale

Member
Hmmm, that does seem part of a trend, although I think it is also not quite accurate. I mean this year, in my opinion, has been the best year for SP games for almost a decade...
 
C

Callibretto

Member
Y2Kev said:
Means what? Tiny niche games can survive? Should EA care? RE7 did not meet expectations.

Crash is not full price. Is that the realm where single player games will live?

People responding with horizon sales numbers are missing the point. Is 4 million sales enough for a game in full scale production in a western country for 5 years?
Click to expand...
I don't think Horizon had full 5 year production though. Maybe 2 year of prototyping and preproduction with small team before full production for 3 years.

I think TLoU is similar too.
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
Y2Kev said:
Means what? Tiny niche games can survive? Should EA care? RE7 did not meet expectations.

Crash is not full price. Is that the realm where single player games will live?

People responding with horizon sales numbers are missing the point. Is 4 million sales enough for a game in full scale production in a western country for 5 years?
Click to expand...
HZD was in 'full scale production" for just 3.5 years (from late 2013 to Feb 2017), apparently arriving to a 45m euros price tag.
4m sales is likely at what it was in early summer, and went way beyond that as it was heavily bundled in Europe (an analyst predicted 8m+ lifetime sales I believe).

So... Sure?

It will also probably be a somewhat evergreen title for the PS4 I expect, if only for its showcase status (not the only reason).

But you're not really doing a great argument with Horizon, a critically acclaimed and very popular 1st party title for a console maker.
Same for Zelda.

The big problem comes for third party titles who have an 'ok' reception, an overinflated budget and relying on a metric fuckton of marketing $$ to sell.

Those are the kind of title that can sink a publisher (or at least a studio).
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Elandyll said:
HZD was in 'full scale production" for just 3.5 years (from late 2013 to Feb 2017), apparently arriving to a 45m euros price tag.
4m sales is likely at what it was in early summer, and went way beyond that as it was heavily bundled in Europe (an analyst predicted 8m+ lifetime sales I believe).

So... Sure?

It will also probably be a somewhat evergreen title for the PS4 I expect, if only for its showcase status (not the only reason).

But you're not really doing a great argument with Horizon, a critically acclaimed and very popular 1st party title for a console maker.
Same for Zelda.

The big problem comes for third party titles who have an 'ok' reception, an overinflated budget and relying on a metric fuckton of marketing $$ to sell.

Those are the kind of title that can sink a publisher (or at least a studio).
Click to expand...

No, they said it was more expensive than the previously most expensive project at 45mm EUR. Do you actually have the budget of horizon?
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
zsynqx said:
https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/920709214993035265
Click to expand...
coS4JC3.gif
 
E

Elandyll

Banned
Y2Kev said:
No, they said it was more expensive than the previously most expensive project at 45mm EUR. Do you actually have the budget of horizon?
Click to expand...
I think they said 'around 45m Euros'

https://www.gamepur.com/news/25976-...game-largest-dutch-media-production-ever.html

Here they say 'above'

The studio makes blockbuster games "being played by millions of gamers around the world. With a production budget of more than 45 million - Guerrilla does not mention the exact amount - Horizon Zero Dawn is the largest Dutch media production ever."
Click to expand...

In most articles they say 'around $47m'...

As they're not saying 'above 46m euros, it's thus possibly from 45.1 to 45.9m ?
 
C

CrichtonKicks

Member
Random Human said:
So it was just being mismanaged or what?
Click to expand...

I know EA is supposed to be increasing dev times after the bad publicity for excessive crunch but this game felt like it was in development way too long to not even be on the horizon for release yet.

Production was announced not loo long after TLoU shipped yet they couldn't turn around a single player focused Star Wars adventure in the time that ND put out UC4 with all of its developmental difficulties.
 
Z

zelas

Member
Crocodile said:
Case in Point:

DMXR7IMUMAAit7U.jpg


but I can't speak to the Western AAA market or what AAA Western publisher want to do
Click to expand...

Those combined don't come close to representing the majority of revenue or units for the entire market, let alone what AAA titles drive. A handful of single player games existing and doing fine do not dispute the reality of market trends, performance of recent titles, and the revenue opportunity multiplayer games present in a world where development costs are still rising.

This isn't a change that will just appear overnight. Just like digital becoming the top driver didnt happen overnight, even though some insisted on pointing at a handful of physical only games that were selling much better than most titles on the market.
 
S

Spyder_Monkey

Banned
It's not though. Eventually, one of these "service games" will be a failure. Hell Destiny dropped massively between sequels so it's not like being a "service game" is an indication of success.
 
H

Hero

Member
Crocodile said:
While its true that all those game are grouped primarily by their critical acclaim, almost all (all?) of them sold super well. If the argument is that some developers can't make games good enough that they could sell as single-player experiences I can't say I have much sympathy?
Click to expand...

Okay, but that's kind of what I'm saying. Making a critically acclaimed AAA single player experience game is way, way, way, way harder and more expensive to make than a multiplayer focused game filled with MTs.

Why would EA, Activision, or Ubisoft spend the resources to make a game on the level of Horizon where the ceiling for ROI is much lower than a game in the vein of a MOBA or Battle Royale game?
 
P

PK Gaming

Member
kpaadet said:
The Witcher was also made by a studio located in Poland where cost of living is much lower than the usual places most video games are made.
Click to expand...

heringer said:
The Witcher is developed in Poland, though. Wages are not as high as in US.
Click to expand...

Burdmayn said:
CD Projekt Red is a bit of anomaly if I recall. I think they get a large amount of support from their country's government.
Click to expand...

Damn, so it's not an open and shut sort of deal.

Thanks for clarifying
 
M

Monkeyball

Banned
Maybe for shitty big western publishers. Nintendo and smaller studios will continue to make games that arent just to milk money from you with loot boxes.
 
T

Trace

Banned
Monkeyball said:
Maybe for shitty big western publishers. Nintendo and smaller studios will continue to make games that arent just to milk money from you with loot boxes.
Click to expand...

The Nintendo apologism is real. What exactly do you think Amiibos are? A way to milk money from consumers. Just because it comes with a little figure doesn't make it any different.
 
K

Kovacs

Member
When strong story-led single player games disappear that's pretty much when I'll stop buying games with any frequency.

But hey - at least I may finally get to work on my backlog.

Freshmaker said:
It also had a gross enough history behind it that I didn't want to support it regardless.
Click to expand...

Have you got a link to a summary? I hadn't paid any attention to the development of this one so first time I've heard anything about a dodgy history.
 
V

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
The Star Wars project had been in preproduction YEARS ago.

I'm not saying there isn't a trend towards something that isn't only SP NOR am I saying only SP games are dead.

I just find it odd all of the conclusions being drawn from this Star Wars project which has been kicked around for more than a few years now with no public signs of what it was. Obviously there was development troubles, but I find it kinda baffling that we are trying to draw sweeping industry conclusions based on it.
 
Z

ZombAid82

Member
Trace said:
The Nintendo apologism is real. What exactly do you think Amiibos are? A way to milk money from consumers. Just because it comes with a little figure doesn't make it any different.
Click to expand...

Well, at least you get something that has a resell value.
And it's (at least until shortly :-( ) completely unnecessary and only cosmetic.
I know, loot boxes are similar...
 
S

Spyder_Monkey

Banned
Trace said:
The Nintendo apologism is real. What exactly do you think Amiibos are? A way to milk money from consumers. Just because it comes with a little figure doesn't make it any different.
Click to expand...
Comparing toys to randomized microtransactions that exploit gambling addiction is kind of dumb when you start to think about it. It's like saying "oh no my kids Happy meal comes with a toy the horror."
 
S

Spehornoob

Member
I'm okay with this if it means we go back to getting more reasonably budgeted, focused single player titles.

Big, cinematic, set piece driven single player games were wearing on me. I know that kind of title has it's fans, though.
 
J

jsnepo

Member
All it takes is one EA game cancelled (and three Bethesda games) to invalidate all the successful single player only games released this year.

Let's not jump to conclusions here.
 
L

Lord of Ostia

Member
Trace said:
The Nintendo apologism is real. What exactly do you think Amiibos are? A way to milk money from consumers. Just because it comes with a little figure doesn't make it any different.
Click to expand...
Amiibo are collectibles first and foremost, their use as DLC is secondary. Outside of the recent Metroid example I can't think of a case where they are worth purchasing if you don't want the figure and just want the game content. They are also relatively high quality figures for a cheap price, which if you know anything about collectible figures you'd know that's a rare thing.
 
A

Alchemy

Member
Different companies have different goals. Sony is cool with big budget linear games because it props up their library and is good for the brand, so as long as they're even slightly profitable they'll keep doing it. EA is a different beast and significantly more interested in return on investment for each individual project so they approach game development differently. The loot box multiplayer circle jerk with 'games as a service' is the most direct way to have a high ROI so EA is obviously going to try to focus on that. See Battlefront 2.

Just be careful with what companies you support.
 
B

border

Member
Can we please make a list of Games As Service titles that have been utter failures? I am really tired of hearing "Oh this one single-player game didn't do so hot therefore all single player games are probably going to come to an end".

Nobody ever says "Well Battleborn and Lawbreakers tanked, so I guess that's the end of GaaS!"
 
Raven117

Raven117

Member
Spehornoob said:
I'm okay with this if it means we go back to getting more reasonably budgeted, focused single player titles.

Big, cinematic, set piece driven single player games were wearing on me. I know that kind of title has it's fans, though.
Click to expand...

Same, I think smaller single player games, singularly focused with a small team deliver far more compelling experiences. (See Hellblade for the most recent example).
 
P

PSOreo

Member
When will Polygon becomes a banned source on this site. Their “hot takes” and quickness to get an article out simply for clicks happens way too often.
 
N

nuclearaddict

Banned
To be fair, you could have written this article 20 years ago. SP games aren't really going anywhere, the AAA market has been moving to multiplayer since, what? 1996? When online multiplayer was seen as the future of gaming.

We'll still continue to see SP games from AAA devs, it might wane here and there with market shifts, but it won't disappear. People like an immersive SP experience.
 
L

Lulu23

Member
I notice this on myself and it is very obvious why this shift seems to be happening: I'm fine with borrowing a singleplayer game and playing through it once whereas I tend to buy online multiplayer games because I feel like I'll return to it a lot (which doesn't even always happen).

Solutions:

1. Have games be licenses that are bound to an account like Microsoft was planning to do with the Xbox One.

2. Lower the price of big singleplayer games to around 40€ and maybe save on trying to tack on some shitty multiplayer so people
I
don't feel like wasting money on something I'll only play through once or twice instead of something I return to often that costs the same amount.
 
A

Azusa

Member
Apparently single player games are long time dead but we didnt know about it.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-10-03-wow-designer-single-player-games-are-dying
Speaking to GamesIndustry International in an in-depth interview, Pardo agreed that single player has become an "endangered species" that probably won't last much longer. "I don't see there being a great business model for it these days. It's really sad, there's just a lot of elements out there that conspire to make those games difficult to make now," he told us.
Click to expand...

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-10-25-single-player-is-a-gimmick-says-mid-core-developer
Certain games, like Demon's Souls or DayZ, are purposefully designed to be a challenge, which depending on the player is either satisfying or exasperating. Gogogic CEO Jonas Antonsson thinks that these sorts of games scratch a sort of itch for gamers, and notes that their social components are evidence of how games are moving towards a sort of multiplayer singularity.
Click to expand...


http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...leaves-a-lot-of-revenue-in-publishers-pockets
Vostok Games, which rose from the ashes of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2 studio GSC Game World, has explained why it was forced to evolve beyond single player experiences.

"Those games take a long time, cost a lot, and leave a lot of revenue in the pockets of publishers," project manager Ruslan Didenko told Gamasutra.

Only once they decided on the free-to-play, online model was its next project, a shooter called Survarium, able to find the investment it needed.
Click to expand...

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/single-player-games-on-the-way-out-says-phil-harrison
Phil Harrison has claimed that the games industry will move away from making standalone single-player titles like Alone in the Dark.

Speaking to Eurogamer, the Infogrames president explained how consumers increasingly want network connectivity and embedded communities in their games, and that he expects the industry to reduce its focus on solely single-player titles.
Click to expand...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-16-single-player-only-games-gone-in-3-years
The traditional single-player only game experience will not exist by the end of 2014.

That's the prediction of veteran video game consultant Mark Cerny, who has worked with Sony on games such as Crash Bandicoot, Jak and Daxter, Spyro and Ratchet & Clank.

"I believe the traditional single-player game experience will be gone in three years," Cerny told an audience at a behind-closed door, Sony-organised panel discussion on the future of video games, attended by Eurogamer, this evening.
Click to expand...


http://www.develop-online.net/interview/ea-s-leap-of-faith/0116927
Frank Gibeau: I volunteer you to speak to EA’s studio heads; they’ll tell you the same thing. They’re very comfortable moving the discussion towards how we make connected gameplay – be it co-operative or multiplayer or online services – as opposed to fire-and-forget, packaged goods only, single-player, 25-hours-and you’re out. I think that model is finished.

Online is where the innovation, and the action, is at.
Click to expand...
 
M

Mazzo3

Member
"big-budget cinematic action games designed as linear single-player experiences"

To me, this is very different from single player games in general. I won't mourn the bolded parts either.
 
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