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[krazen]

We aren’t going anywhere senior, a gentlemen asked about us as culture and I told him my feelings about it.

Whether it be in a professional setting or through entertainment. In this thread we have people actually defending the company, because they enjoy their games. See how I equates that to my own personal problem with saying this is dead wrong but not speaking out against something I enjoy?

Is that where we were headed?

Two different things. Of you want to make a “Negativity in media/entertainment takes a societal toll” be my guest. I might even agree with some of those points.

The issue here with people ‘defending’ ND isnt because of ND’s problematic content..we can all agree that Last Of Us is one of the most progressive AAA titles ever created. The reason people are defending ND is because they are willing to stomach certain societal wrongs as long as it doesn’t affect their hobby.

Sadly enough those rappers in the songs you struggle with would have most likely have known that treating a reporter like a piece of shit is wrong, lol

 

[Kodros]

Going to the company's HR, a company you do not work, to report harassment is not something anyone should do ever. Their job is to protect the company.

Yes, it is REALLY BAD advice.

I don't know if HR is the best place to go but that's where you would go if you worked for the company. So someone outside bringing up a sexual harassment issue isn't some out of left field idea. But lets follow your logic..

• Reporter tells ND's HR that someone sexually harassed her.
• They said they will handle it.
• They didn't handle it.
• 5 years later, reporter comes out and says publicly on twitter that she was sexually harassed by an ND employee, told ND about it, and they did nothing.

How is that protecting the company?

 

[Mahonay]

I don't know if HR is the best place to go but that's where you would go if you worked for the company. So someone outside bringing up a sexual harassment issue isn't some out of left field idea. But lets follow your logic..

• Reporter tells ND's HR that someone sexually harassed her.
• They said they will handle it.
• They didn't handle it.
• 5 years later, reporter comes out and says publicly on twitter that she was sexually harassed by an ND employee, told ND about it, and they did nothing.

How is that protecting the company?

SHE DOESN'T WORK FOR THE COMPANY.

So...I really have no clue whatsoever what you are trying to get across with all of these hypotheticals.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I don't know if HR is the best place to go but that's where you would go if you worked for the company. So someone outside bringing up a sexual harassment issue isn't some out of left field idea. But lets follow your logic..

• Reporter tells ND's HR that someone sexually harassed her.
• They said they will handle it.
• They didn't handle it.
• 5 years later, reporter comes out and says publicly on twitter that she was sexually harassed by an ND employee, told ND about it, and they did nothing.

How is that protecting the company?

How about you stop telling a sexual harassment victim what she should have done, especially when it's something that everyone else in this thread understandably already told you is a mind-fuckingly stupid idea by any rational metric? Do you think this is a thing you could do? Could you please do this thing? Thank you.

 

[DylanEno]

This shit is abhorrent and makes me dread how common a thing this is in any sort of professional working environment. Like, can you imagine if this was secretly commonplace with, say, Nintendo? I’d fucking cry tbh

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I thought the distinction between ND the company and the 400 individual people that work there should be trivial, what's confusing you?

I'm not the person who is confused. I'd argue the people painting the entire studio for the shitty behavior of this miscreant are.

If there are truly so many posts calling out for action against every ND employee as you claim, you should have no trouble requoting a few?

Unless, of course, it's some absurd delusion like the one above...

Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought you just said that "people are saying that ND should take responsibility for the actions of this asshole"?

What I'm questioning is simply "why?"

We don't even know if ND knew about the incident in the tweet. We don't know anything other than it happened.

So I'm sorry, but I'm clearly going to choose to continue to refer to this situation as the improper actions of one person, and not cast aspersions across the entirety of ND the studio, its culture and leadership (which if you'd been reading the thread was a post made and cosigned by a number of other posters a few pages back), when we have such little information.

 

[Briarios]

To those that feel the need to defend an anonymous employee: a joke can be sexual harassment. Saying it sounds like a joke is not a defense.

And, yes, there are bad apples at every company - but what definitely the company is how they respond to these issues. So far, ND has had several issues come up recently and they seem dismissive. That's an issue. Look at Uber and how things exploded there.

If there is indeed a culture there where a blind eye is turned to this kind of behavior and the victims are shuffled off, we're gonna hear a lot more in the coming days. Prepare yourselves.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

This shit is abhorrent and makes me dread how common a thing this is in any sort of professional working environment. Like, can you imagine if this was secretly commonplace with, say, Nintendo? I’d fucking cry tbh

100% there's probably people like this at Nintendo. It's all to common to see these types of comments as "jokes" in our current society. The good news though is hopefully all of these stories will create a conversation about how this type of behavior needs to stop and isn't just a "joke".

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I see examples of it every day here at my job. There's a particular individual who goes around and says inappropriate things to all the women in the office. He does it to every single one of them. I've seen him massage co-workers backs, rub their backs, call them sweetie or baby, kiss the top of their heads. That shit is creepy. Everytime I bring it up, I get the same response, that's just how he is. That's just straight up sad.

Man that is fucked up. Is that in the US? What industry?

 

[Kodros]

SHE DOESN'T WORK FOR THE COMPANY.

So...I really have no clue whatsoever what you are trying to get across with all of these hypotheticals.

I know she doesn't work for the company. As I said, maybe there's a better person to tell than HR. But you are telling me that HR is there to protect the company and protecting the company would have been to fire this fuck if they found out.

How about you stop telling a sexual harassment victim what she should have done, especially when it's something that everyone else in this thread understandably already told you is a mind-fuckingly stupid idea by any rational metric? Do you think this is a thing you could do? Could you please do this thing? Thank you.

Oh for fuck sake, fuck this thread. I can't believe I'm getting bitched at for hoping that someone that got sexual harassed would have gone to the company to tell them.

 

[benicillin]

Something I think a lot of people, generally men, fail to understand about sexual harassment is the idea that your one shitty comment does not exist in a vacuum and is probably not the first time a woman is being sexually harassed that day. They might have had someone rub up against them on the bus. Or someone yell some demeaning shit as they're walking to work. Maybe the grocery store clerk told her she should smile more. To the guy in the equation it's a one-off shitty comment. To a woman it's probably the third or fourth or fifth thing that has happened to them that day. And it happens all the time.

So yeah, even one comment can be harassment because it is harassment, is part of a greater culture of society that permits such harassment, and the world would be better off if you just abstained from making shitty jokes or comments in the first place.

 

[krazen]

I'm not the person who is confused. I'd argue the people painting the entire studio for the shitty behavior of this miscreant are.



Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought you just said that "people are saying that ND should take responsibility for the actions of this asshole"?

What I'm questioning is simply "why?"

We don't even know if ND knew about the incident in the tweet. We don't know anything other than it happened.

So I'm sorry, but I'm clearly going to choose to continue to refer to this situation as the improper actions of one person, and not cast aspersions across the entirety of ND the studio, its culture and leadership (which if you'd been reading the thread was a post made and cosigned by a number of other posters a few pages back), when we have such little information.

As one of the people who insinuated...
Do I know about the culture at ND? No, I never worked there. But considering this is the second unproven sexual harassment accusation against the studio in a week in an industry that been dogged by quantifiable accusations of sexism (tech), its just a weird leap to jump to What about the feelings of the multimillion dollar studio? in the defense (not saying you in particular did that, others in the thread) when signs point to the possibility of a bigger issue like the rest of their industry.

 

[jacobeid]

Oh for fuck sake, fuck this thread. I can't believe I'm getting bitched at for hoping that someone that got sexual harassed would have gone to the company to tell them.

Bye. Don't let the door smack you on the way out.

 

[AgentChris]

Drop the name.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Two different things. Of you want to make a “Negativity in media/entertainment takes a societal toll” be my guest. I might even agree with some of those points.

The issue here with people ‘defending’ ND isnt because of ND’s problematic content..we can all agree that Last Of Us is one of the most progressive AAA titles ever created. The reason people are defending ND is because they are willing to stomach certain societal wrongs as long as it doesn’t affect their hobby.

Sadly enough those rappers in the songs you struggle with would have most likely have known that treating a reporter like a piece of shit is wrong, lol

Oh I totally agree with what you are saying as you understand my concern with how I feel about myself and the music I listen to.

I just wanted to approach his question from a different angle and the concerns I have about myself if I am speaking against one thing, I should be man enough, even if I like the company, or musician to say something.

That if we go that way, are culture in general would have to change. Whether it be good or bad. It should never enter someone’s mind to say that to another person or about, much less in a professional setting.

 

[CaviarMeths]

Then you clearly haven't been reading this thread... lol.

Edit:
You just said, "no one is blaming all ND", they are saying "all ND is to blame for allowing this"... how is that different?

Also, how did we jump to "ND have allowed this", when as far as I can see, there is no evidence to suggest they even knew about it?

Honestly can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or you really don't know the difference between "everyone at ND is to blame" and "ND needs to take responsibility." People are obviously calling for the company ND, as in its top management/owners, to have accountability here. There may be some underlying problems in the work culture if there are multiple allegations of harassment in less than week. That needs to be addressed ASAP. They are not saying that every individual working for the company shares blame in this incident.

To anyone just joining the thread now: No one is saying this. Not one person in this thread is calling for the studio closure, for everyone to be fired, holding the entire staff responsible, etc.

I'm going to pistol whip the next person who says "bad apples."

 

[A-V-B]

What happened that bumped this topic? There are a ton of pages now.

 

[Makonero]

I'm going to pistol whip the next person who says "bad apples."

The interesting thing is...if I knew there were bad apples in a bowl on the counter, I'd throw them all out. I don't trust them anymore.

 

[erawsd]

This shit is abhorrent and makes me dread how common a thing this is in any sort of professional working environment. Like, can you imagine if this was secretly commonplace with, say, Nintendo? I’d fucking cry tbh

Honestly, I think it’s safe to assume that some number of any large group is going to made up of shitty people whose stories we may never or have not yet heard.

 

[Mahonay]

I know she doesn't work for the company. As I said, maybe there's a better person to tell than HR. But you are telling me that HR is there to protect the company and protecting the company would have been to fire this fuck if they found out.



Oh for fuck sake, fuck this thread. I can't believe I'm getting bitched at for hoping that someone that got sexual harassed would have gone to the company to tell them.

HR is there so they don't get sued. That is their job. Not to help bring justice for people that don't work for them.

Dude, how are you this naive?

 

[xxracerxx]

What the hell is happening at Naughty Dog

This happens everywhere, which is terrifying.

 

[Blyr]

I don't understand why the impetus is on the victim to "prove" anything, that's so absurd it's mind boggling

It'd be like if you got robbed, the police show up, "Well can you PROVE you owned this? How do I know you aren't just lying to get 'ol Jimmy in trouble? Maybe you just lent it out to him and forgot, have you considered that? Are you sure it wasn't just lost?" like, jesus

She already went through something traumatic and was brave enough to speak up about it even though it could cause harm to her reputation and possibly cost her her career, but she did so anyways. It's NOT something easy to talk about, and the reason she "stayed silent for so long" may have been because she was afraid of what is currently happening in this thread from some posters -- people would side with the abuser, or dismiss her claims, as commonly happens, because people don't want to face the ugly truth that some people are incredibly shitty.

I'm also tired of the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing being thrown around, because those posters then low key accuse the victim of lying. How about the Victim is a victim until proven otherwise? How about give the person who suffered trauma the benefit of the doubt because this shit is a lot more common than many seem to want to acknowledge and there's an entire culture of "just play ball" that has run rampant for years.

Did someone make a sexist joke towards you? Well if you speak out you're just "that bitch" who "can't take a joke", and then you get ostracized from the office. Dare to speak up about sexual harassment/abuse? "But s/he seems so nice! Are you sure you weren't leading them on? Are you sure this? Are you sure that?" and other questions to cause the victim themselves to doubt whether they were even a victim to begin with. That's something you have to deal with constantly, wondering if it was something YOU did wrong, if it was something YOU did to cause it, especially when everyone is piling that shit on you or dismissing how you feel.

If you hurt someone with a shitty joke, that's on YOU, not them. Don't make someone who already feels like shit feel even worse because you can't take the L and realize that you fucked up. Don't defend shitty behavior of other people because you're afraid that you might not be able to make shitty jokes about people in the future. Just don't make shitty jokes. Be better. Learn from your mistakes and set out to improve yourself so you don't repeat them.

Do NOT however accuse victims of lying, being "too sensitive", or any other sorts of nonsense because holy shit that makes you seem like the scummiest kind of person.

 

[Briarios]

I know she doesn't work for the company. As I said, maybe there's a better person to tell than HR. But you are telling me that HR is there to protect the company and protecting the company would have been to fire this fuck if they found out.



Oh for fuck sake, fuck this thread. I can't believe I'm getting bitched at for hoping that someone that got sexual harassed would have gone to the company to tell them.

Right, because you know what would happen? She'd stop getting invited to cover their events and she'd no longer be able to speak to their employees on the record. Don't be naive. Going to HR would have blackballed her.

 

[Gator86]

Was a stupid thing to say, but man, the world has gone wussy when a bad joke can cause this much fuss...

Shares in pitchfork manufacturers must be through the fucking roof lol

This is a dumb post. Yeesh. Like, go read a book. These types of things have negative consequences not only for the person it's directed at, but the people around as well. This is not shit you want going on.

I shudder to think what kind of "locker room talk" you're throwing around when you think you can get away with it.

 

[Krayz]

So we know one dev/harasser left naughty dog and went to niantic, shouldn't we be complaining to niantic too? Tell them to fire that motherfucker. Will they even care tho?

 

[Krayz]

HR is there so they don't get sued. That is their job. Not to help bring justice for people that don't work for them.

Dude, how are you this naive?

And HR thought firing someone for complaining about sexual harassment wasn't gonna get them sued? Well I guess they didn't get sued, but that's what happens when the victim waits, how ever many years down the road to finally bring it up. And they didn't bring it up with a lawyer either, they used social media. Why are they only bringing this up now, they had a good case on their hands if they had just brought it up to the labor force ASAP.

 

[Mahonay]

And HR thought firing someone for complaining about sexual harassment wasn't gonna get them sued? Well I guess they didn't get sued, but that's what happens when the victim waits, how ever many years down the road to finally bring it up. And they didn't bring it up with a lawyer either, they used social media. Why are they only bringing this up now, they had a good case on their hands if they had just brought it up to the labor force ASAP.

Blaming the victim is a great place to start. Good job. You did it.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Krayz]

Blaming the victim is a great place to start. Good job. You did it.

Spoiler

/s

Too many times this is the reason the suspect gets away. If this was brought up instantly they wouldn't have such a defense force like what you see now. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Hideki Kamiya]

Those dogs were being naughty huh?

 

[Briarios]

Too many times this is the reason the suspect gets away. If this was brought up instantly they wouldn't have such a defense force like what you see now. Wouldn't you agree?

It's been explained time and time again EXACTLY why women don't bring it up instantly. I'm not sure what else can be said at this point other than you are either purposely remaining ignorant or you are victim blaming. Both are bad looks.

 

[Mahonay]

Too many times this is the reason the suspect gets away. If this was brought up instantly they wouldn't have such a defense force like what you see now. Wouldn't you agree?

You're now doubling down on victim blaming. Ok then.

 

[Krayz]

It's been explained time and time again EXACTLY why women don't bring it up instantly. I'm not sure what else can be said at this point other than you are either purposely remaining ignorant or you are victim blaming. Both are bad looks.

The one that got fired for complaining about sexual harassment was a man?

 

[Mael]

So what was it that anonymous Naughty Dog employee said?
Oh that's right :

“There definitely is not a culture of covering up bad behavior,”

Yeah...

 

[Krayz]

You're now doubling down on victim blaming. Ok then.

I hope to god you never get chosen as part of a jury. You could get an innocent person locked up behind bars.

 

[Mahonay]

I hope to god you never get chosen as part of a jury. You could get an innocent person locked up behind bars.

Lol alright dude.

 

[TGO]

That's a bit below the belt and unprofessional.
But I ain't gonna believe a ND employer randomly said this out the blue, there was obviously more to the conversation than "hi I'm a reporter"
Or are we supposed to believe thats the case.
The comment is both spiteful and in anger which suggests a question was made in response to information they had and it's unlikely it was regarding their next game.
It's still wrong but you would think the employer would be more careful with what they say in this day and age where everyone is a target and people will only see one thing.

 

[Briarios]

I hope to god you never get chosen as part of a jury. You could get an innocent person locked up behind bars.

... You don't see the difference between this and a court of law? Wow. You know, legally, there are a ton of ways a company can legally rip you off. It's only the court of public opinion that changes their behavior.

 

[Xumbrega]

Some replies on this thread almost made me sick.

I can't believe there's people blaming the victim even here on GAF.

Humans were a mistake.

 

[Alucrid]

That's a bit below the belt and unprofessional.
But I ain't gonna believe a ND employer randomly said this out the blue, there was obviously more to the conversation than "hi I'm a reporter"
Or are we supposed to believe thats the case.
The comment is both spiteful and in anger which suggests a question was made in response to information they had and it's unlikely it was regarding their next game.
It's still wrong but you would think the employer would be more careful with what they say in this day and age where everyone is a target and people will only see one thing.

what

 

[Mael]

Some replies on this thread almost made me sick.

I can't believe there's people blaming the victim even here on GAF.

Humans were a mistake.

If you expect anything from gamers, better be prepared to be disappointed times and again.

 

[Mahonay]

That's a bit below the belt and unprofessional.
But I ain't gonna believe a ND employer randomly said this out the blue, there was obviously more to the conversation than "hi I'm a reporter"
Or are we supposed to believe thats the case.
The comment is both spiteful and in anger which suggests a question was made in response to information they had and it's unlikely it was regarding their next game.
It's still wrong but you would think the employer would be more careful with what they say in this day and age where everyone is a target and people will only see one thing.

 

[Flintty]

Some replies on this thread almost made me sick.

I can't believe there's people blaming the victim even here on GAF.

Humans were a mistake.

Yeah I’m shocked there are two sides to the debate here.

People need to ask themselves “would I say that to a women in my place of work (or anywhere!) and would I expect it to be fine?”. If the answer is yes, well, you need to change your behaviours and think about what sort of person you are.

Put it another way, would you be happy about someone saying it to your mother, sister or wife? No, you fucking wouldn’t. It’s unprofessional, indecent and unacceptable. It’s harassment, full stop.

 

[Aeqvitas]

Anyone who has worked in a large corporate culture probably understands why this stuff is probably a lot more commonplace than we all like to pretend. I've personally been harassed by a female boss for more than a year. I get massive anxiety every time I hear her walking buy, terrified that today will be the day she makes a false report to the floor manager about me and I could lose my job. I can't go to HR, as I know they would side with my harasser because she is more "valuable" and my company even makes a public point of how it is the best one for women in its industry. Of course they won't say it, but I've seen them let go dozens of my coworkers this year alone who go who make any complaint, because in the market for my field, entry level jobs are so rare that there are hundreds of applicants for single openings. We are simply too expendable. They already don't care when they give us 1 less hour a month than the required to get health benefits, or makes us come in "voluntarily" on every holiday without overtime or holiday pay. Why would they care about harassment?

So basically harassers enjoy a culture of impunity, so I'm not surprised they act like this to people outside of their control as well, as happened to this reporter. They are used to saying and doing whatever they feel like with no blowback. And 99% of the time, they do get away with it. Everything we are seeing surface about this type of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[mckmas8808]

Is this kind of thing all just a farce if they allow this kind of culture to be tolerated?

https://twitter.com/naughty_dog/status/839606524880150528

Or the case of one bad apple souring the rest? Not good ND...

This is unfair to no end! People like this exist at all companies. Right now ND is in the limelight, so people are telling their stories about that company.

But don't delude yourself into thinking it's only or mainly them alone that have these people.

 

[TGO]

what

What do you mean what?
You don't wanna know why someone would say that?
Was he just a prick, did he have something against the website or her.
Was something said for him to respond in that manner?
or did he just walk up to her and said that?
Why can't someone ask for more info on here without someone jumping on them because they haven't gotten their pitchforks out yet.
I question stuff, Everyone should.
Not looking for the full picture is how mistakes are made.

 

[labx]

Some replies on this thread almost made me sick.

I can't believe there's people blaming the victim even here on GAF.

Humans were a mistake.

+1. The argument: "was a shitty joke, was a bad pick up line... etc" isn't strong for you defenders of the situation. Men sometimes are pigs and do not have the social ability to communicate with women.

That's a bit below the belt and unprofessional.
But I ain't gonna believe a ND employer randomly said this out the blue, there was obviously more to the conversation than "hi I'm a reporter"
Or are we supposed to believe thats the case.
The comment is both spiteful and in anger which suggests a question was made in response to information they had and it's unlikely it was regarding their next game.
It's still wrong but you would think the employer would be more careful with what they say in this day and age where everyone is a target and people will only see one thing.

wow... Why not?

 

[Flintty]

Anyone who has worked in a large corporate culture probably understands why this stuff is probably a lot more commonplace than we all like to pretend. I've personally been harassed by a female boss for more than a year. I get massive anxiety every time I hear her walking buy, terrified that today will be the day she makes a false report to the floor manager about me and I could lose my job. I can't go to HR, as I know they would side with my harasser because she is more "valuable" and my company even makes a public point of how it is the best one for women in its industry. Of course they won't say it, but I've seen them let go dozens of my coworkers this year alone who go who make any complaint, because in the market for my field, entry level jobs are so rare that there are hundreds of applicants for single openings. We are simply too expendable. They already don't care when they give us 1 less hour a month than the required to get health benefits, or makes us come in "voluntarily" on every holiday without overtime or holiday pay. Why would they care about harassment?

So basically harassers enjoy a culture of impunity, so I'm not surprised they act like this to people outside of their control as well, as happened to this reporter. They are used to saying and doing whatever they feel like with no blowback. And 99% of the time, they do get away with it. Everything we are seeing surface about this type of stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.

That sucks. Do you keep a log of every incident? If you dont, you should. Build a case and subtly ask colleagues if they have the same. It only takes one domino to start it.

 

[Mael]

We could unearth mass graves of children killed by developers of games you like and some of you would be wondering if the kids didn't bring it on themselves.

 

[TGO]

So he was a prick then?
Ok enough said.

 

[Mahonay]

What do you mean what?
You don't wanna know why someone would say that?
Was he just a prick, did he have something against the website or her.
Was something said for him to respond in that manner?
or did he just walk up to her and said that?
Why can't someone ask for more info on here without someone jumping on them because they haven't gotten their pitchforks out yet.
I question stuff, Everyone should.
Not looking for the full picture is how mistakes are made.

It's almost like sexual harassment is 100 percent unwarranted and doesn't need to be
"brought on" by the victim. I know, it's a very hard concept to grasp.