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[belvedere]

No. No specs for the Neo have been announced.

I didn't think so but these threads move fast.

Thanks gents.

 

[Crayon]

I'm going to say we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you go for a Google you'll find that Sony tested xbox style prototypes before going with "tradition" . And have you seen the DS "elite" patent application?

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2016..._controller_with_paddles_and_adaptable_layout

It's lucrative to sell accessories like controllers. MS just found a new revenue stream by getting off a million $150 luxury controllers. On the other hand, the xbox elite controller shows no sign of helping xb1 itself sell better.

I consider it self evident that sony would be making an elite ds4 to rake in cash for the newly established luxury controller market. You disagree with that?

 

[MilkyJoe]

It's lucrative to sell accessories like controllers. MS just found a new revenue stream by getting off a million $150 luxury controllers. On the other hand, the xbox elite controller shows no sign of helping xb1 itself sell better.

I consider it self evident that sony would be making an elite ds4 to rake in cash for the newly established luxury controller market. You disagree with that?

No, but you ignore point 1 and and disregard the point of point 2

Point 2 being the different stick positions.

 

[Crayon]

No, but you ignore point 1 and and disregard the point of point 2

Point 2 being the different stick positions.

Right. Your stick positions, again. MilkyJoe, I'm afraid our conversation has run it's course.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Right. Your stick positions, again. MilkyJoe, I'm afraid our conversation has run it's course.

Yep.

Buying a console based on a preferred input device over who sold the most boxes... What was I thinking...

You must think you are talking to a lunatic

Now back to the hive with you. *waves*

 

[gatti-man]

I would put the power of the system somewhere behind the main three I noted. It matters. Just not nearly as much as the three prime factors.

In your ps3 vs 360 example, you neglect that the 360 was on the market a year before hand, and at a significantly better price. The rest of your points are debatable. I'll leave that at that. I'll repeat: the relative performance of the console is a factor, but a second-order effect at best.

I'm not forgetting that and many people waited for PS3. Remember the "next ten doesn't start until we say so" stuff from Sony? Also 360 was heavily supply constrained during its first year.

 

[TH-Work]

let me clear this up. you think power is the only reason the PS4 is outselling the Xbox One?

It's maybe not the only reason, but it's in my opinion the most important one

 

[Crayon]

Remember the "next gen doesn't start until we say so" stuff from Sony?

Really.... that's.... How do I put this.... Not a thing. That was a foot-in-mouth quote. It has no bearing on whether or not people waited for ps3.

Remember that 360 creamed ps3 in the states but rest of the world made up for it and brought it in line. This is a direct result of Marketing. In this case, XBox marketing was superior in the US and Playstation marketing was superior in the rest of the world.

 

[GodParticle]

It's like the bit wars all over again, except now it's tflops haha

 

[MilkyJoe]

Really.... that's.... How do I put this.... Not a thing. That was a foot-in-mouth quote. It has no bearing on whether or not people waited for ps3.

Remember that 360 creamed ps3 in the states but rest of the world made up for it and brought it in line. This is a direct result of Marketing. In this case, XBox marketing was superior in the US and Playstation marketing was superior in the rest of the world.

Don't you think it's time you took the wars to another forum. This is not a thread for how many consoles Sony sell, it's about Xbox Scorpio,

 

[HAWDOKEN]

I think a point for consideration is whether or not the enthusiast community will evangelize this console similarly to how they did with the PS4 and, during the last gen, with the 360.

What I've noticed is that there is a much more tepid response to Scorpio than previous console announcements. Some of that is because of the lingering damage the X1 announcement and launch messaging has done to the Xbox brand overall. The Play Anywhere announcement is also a source of skepticism from enthusiasts. Enthusiasts here just aren't giving me the impression that they are going to evangelize this box to his/her friends (even people who say they're excited for the box) which could prove to be a big obstacle for MS going forward.

Personally, I'm interested in the Scorpio but I'm not excited for it. The X1 has been a good console for me, but I look forward to the conversation shifting from the lack of performance of X1 games to the considerable power of the Scorpio. Among the things that would get my attention are: price, OS (current OS is too static), Live innovation, Store innovation(s) (reselling/trading digital games), and game availability.

BTW, someone mentioned the narrative surrounding PS4's true HD vs X1 720p as working because it was obvious or noticeable. I don't agree with this at all. The differences between the two aren't striking to me when I see them side by side. Without the enthusiast analysis here and elsewhere and without native resolution specs being divulged, I don't think most people would notice any difference between the two. I haven't seen a game that one console could do, but the other couldn't. However the sentiment on the internet come off as if that is the case.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

You keep saying that, but that is factually incorrect.

If you look at AMD's published roadmap (first slide): http://videocardz.com/59206/amds-official-gpu-roadmap-for-2016-2018, you will see that Vega includes all the architecture features of Polaris and adds one key feature: HBM2 memory.

While Vega will certainly contain more CU's than the current Polaris 10, the key new feature is HBM2 support. The only way you can claim that Scorpio is using Vega, is if Scorpio is also using HBM2 memory, which is not the case. Therefore, Scorpio is not using Vega, but rather will use some variant of Polaris (different number of CU's, different clockrate, etc.).

Trust me, you're wrong here. What you pointed to is a much less detailed overhead view of what's going on with Vega.

http://wccftech.com/amd-vega-10-gpu-4096-stream-processors/

According to the LinkedIn profile of Yu Zheng who is the manager of research and development at AMD, the upcoming Greenland GPU at its peak capacity, will feature 4096 stream processors. These are not the current generation stream processors but utilize the advancements made in the IP v9.0 generation of graphics SOCs under development by AMD. It is also noted that this chip is the “Leading Chip” of the first graphic IP v9.0 chip generation. You can see the image to the profile and listed details below:

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-vega-10-gpu-4096-stream-processors/#ixzz4DBsH7oE0

Polaris is the same gfx ip generation as fiji. Polaris is v8.0. Vega will be v9.0. And your claim on HB2 being non-interchangeable from Vega is incorrect. It's no different from how despite all GPUs remotely similar to the gpu in the xbox one comes with GDDR5 on PC, but Microsoft went with DDR3. HBM2 is a major feature of Vega, and one of the most anticipated new features, but that doesn't mean AMD can't make a Vega chip that does not use HBM2. This kind of stuff happens very often with AMD. Some of their APUs despite having similar technology to their GDDR5 equipped dedicated GPUs, still ended up without GDDR5. Those GPUs could be made without GDDR5, just like Vega 10 can and will be possible without HBM2.

 

[Crayon]

It's like the bit wars all over again, except now it's tflops haha

It might just be and it's going to be very interesting to watch. I distinguish between actual power and demonstrable power tho. Consider blast processing: Sega wanted to leverage Sonc the Hedgehog and in an absolute stroke of brilliance, attributed Sonic's existence to the mysterious Blast Processing.

This actually did cause much doubt about which system was most capable, at the time. That was a long time ago, but still a very interesting case, even if it wouldn't work quite the same today.

 

[quest]

It's like the bit wars all over again, except now it's tflops haha

People are focusing on the wrong thing here. It is all about the CPU the best case for both Scorpio and NEO is 1080/60. That dream is not happening with the jaguar/puma CPU.

 

[GameSeeker]

Polaris is the same gfx ip generation as fiji. Polaris is v8.0. Vega will be v9.0. And your claim on HB2 being non-interchangeable from Vega is incorrect. It's no different from how despite all GPUs remotely similar to the gpu in the xbox one comes with GDDR5 on PC, but Microsoft went with DDR3. HBM2 is a major feature of Vega, and one of the most anticipated new features, but that doesn't mean AMD can't make a Vega chip that does not use HBM2. This kind of stuff happens very often with AMD. Some of their APUs despite having similar technology to their GDDR5 equipped dedicated GPUs, still ended up without GDDR5. Those GPUs could be made without GDDR5, just like Vega 10 can and will be possible without HBM2.

You are still wrong. You are obfuscating things at the same MisterX level that you did the first time around with Xbox One.

The big feature of Vega is HBM2, which Scorpio is not going to have. Could you build a Vega with GDDR5/GDDR5X? Sure, but then you what have is a scaled up Polaris, which already supports both GDDR5 and GDDR5X.

Both Sony and Microsoft will use Polaris variants just like they both used GCN 1.1 variants with PS4/XB1.

 

[icespide]

Let me ask you: do you think power has nothing to do with a successful console and that a more powerful console which is cheaper than the competition has nothing to do with sales?

I think price is a huge factor. Power is important but I don't think the power difference between PS4 and Xbox One is big enough that majority of people actually care. Vast majority of people buying game consoles really don't care about 900p vs 1080p or a few frame drops.

I think if the Xbox One was more powerful than the PS4 but literally everything else about the console was the same, it would still be in the situation it is now.

 

[Proelite]

You are still wrong. You are obfuscating things at the same MisterX level that you did the first time around with Xbox One.

The big feature of Vega is HBM2, which Scorpio is not going to have. Could you build a Vega with GDDR5/GDDR5X? Sure, but then you what have is a scaled up Polaris, which already supports both GDDR5 and GDDR5X.

Both Sony and Microsoft will use Polaris variants just like they both used GCN 1.1 variants with PS4/XB1.

Are we saying the render is representative? The die size of the APU is exactly the same size as the XB1 APU.

If the render is final I don't see why MS didn't also throw out the 12GB ram amount number, since the memory chips are GDDR5 according to their shape.

Most importantly no matter what GPU is used, it should and would not be using the current Samsung 14nm finfet fab. Sad state that is.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

You are still wrong. You are obfuscating things at the same MisterX level that you did the first time around with Xbox One.

The big feature of Vega is HBM2, which Scorpio is not going to have. Could you build a Vega with GDDR5/GDDR5X? Sure, but then you what have is a scaled up Polaris, which already supports both GDDR5 and GDDR5X.

Both Sony and Microsoft will use Polaris variants just like they both used GCN 1.1 variants with PS4/XB1.

You have no idea what you're talking about right now. You're focusing on HBM2, totally ignoring that Vega represents a new architecture shift for AMD, and what that essentially means is that there will be lower level changes that aren't highlighted just from that roadmap slide. You've got to be the craziest individual I've ever come across if you believe a single roadmap tells you literally everything you need to know about a brand new architecture. I showed plenty of proof that you can't even counter, so we can leave it there.

 

[TerryLee81]

Wonder if they will fix the black crush.

Edit: oh wait, on the S I mean, but also on the Scorpio

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Wonder if they will fix the black crush.

Edit: oh wait, on the S I mean, but also on the Scorpio

As long as developers account for the XB1 gamma curve, there won't be black crush. This really only happened for a handful of games. For full range users it happened in certain games as well.

 

[frogger]

Any word on the 360 BC, can I expect better BC performance for 360 games?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Any word on the 360 BC, can I expect better BC performance for 360 games?

I imagine it is a given if it can natively run Xbox One games. Probably be a more solid experience too, not that there is anything wrong with the xbox one BC that I have played.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

I have a question to people more educated than me on hardware technology. Is it possible, being a 4 or 6 TFLOP machine, that the PS4 Neo be capable of emulating PS3 titles?

(I know the tech is hugely different from the PS3's exotic CPU).

 

[c0de]

I have a question to people more educated them me on hardware technology. Is it possible, being a 4 or 6 TFLOP machine, that the PS4 Neo be capable of emulating PS3 titles?

Most probably not. Perhaps some simple 2d games but even developing the emulator would be a very big task for Sony to do.

 

[Detective]

Based on knows spec for both consoles, Do you guys know the Hz support?

 

[metareferential]

Based on knows spec for both consoles, Do you guys know the Hz support?

Il will just be 60hz max.

Virtually no tv display on the market goes higher than that on the accepted input (don't get fooled by marketing on 200hz+ displays, that's just interpolation).

 

[Detective]

Il will just be 60hz max.

Virtually no tv display on the market goes higher than that on the accepted input (don't get fooled by marketing on 200hz+ displays, that's just interpolation).

I see, So they will never get beyond 60hz?
Am thinking more about PC monitor for console.

So is that the only reason why they wont get past 60Hz? Because of TV's?
Is the Hardware not capable?

Thanks for the feed back

 

[Colbert]

You have no idea what you're talking about right now. You're focusing on HBM2, totally ignoring that Vega represents a new architecture shift for AMD, and what that essentially means is that there will be lower level changes that aren't highlighted just from that roadmap slide. You've got to be the craziest individual I've ever come across if you believe a single roadmap tells you literally everything you need to know about a brand new architecture. I showed plenty of proof that you can't even counter, so we can leave it there.

Fiji was GCN 1.2, Polaris is GCN 1.3, so they are not the same IP. The question is, will AMD change the GCN core again with VEGA or will it also be GCN 1.3 with VEGA?

Even if VEGA does add support for HBM2 that doesn't mean that all products have to use that type of memory as it is still expensive. Talking about the Xbox One we are talking about a semi-custom SOC here which can have any type of memory controller MS want to use for in it.

Why would you use a much faster and expensive memory type like HBM2 if you target a memory speed between 320GB/s and 400GB/s. Makes no sense to me. I suppose to see G5 or G5X memory with the scorpio for this reasons: you can reach the bandwidth requirements by using G5 or G5X easiliy with lower cost than for example HBM and a higher availability in stock!

 

[LukasTaves]

Any word on the 360 BC, can I expect better BC performance for 360 games?

Given how BC already works on xbone (both in that can achieve higher framerates on areas where 360 drops and the other way around too) and the performance delta, I would be surprised if scorpio doesn't have a fully locked framerate at all times at a minimum.

 

[Colbert]

Given how BC already works on xbone (both in that can achieve higher framerates on areas where 360 drops and the other way around too) and the performance delta, I would be surprised if scorpio doesn't have a fully locked framerate at all times at a minimum.

For old titles I think this is true. Games will run at their full target frame rate but I don't think they will change the native resolution unless there is a patch to enable better resolutions.

 

[metareferential]

I see, So they will never get beyond 60hz?
Am thinking more about PC monitor for console.

So is that the only reason why they wont get past 60Hz? Because of TV's?
Is the Hardware not capable?

Thanks for the feed back

Even current consoles can go over 60hz (and some titles that have stereo-3d enabled actually do this, at 120hz; the only one I know is Trine 2 on ps4).

I think the target audience dictates the refresh rate; even if some gamers would prefer playing on higher refresh rate displays like gaming monitors, I don't see Sony or Ms supporting it.

VR could change this, who knows, given it needs at least 90hz and assuming that devs will work towards a "faster" mode for their games.

I'd say we have a 0.0001% chance of seeing 60hz+ games on next consoles xD

My personal hope is that they'll think about g-sync/freesync compatibility.

 

[takoyaki]

Not sure if this has been discussed already in this or another Scorpio thread, searched and didn't find anything.

British newspaper The Daily Star ran a short interview with Dave McCarthy (Head of Xbox Operations at Microsoft) two days ago:

Microsoft wants millions of Xbox gamers to trade-in and buy their Scorpio super console

[...]Dave McCarthy, general manager at Xbox Services, said: "Some of our retail partners today do trade-in programs and that’s definitely going to be partnerships we continue to move going forward.

"We want to make that transition as smooth as possible.

"The compatibility thing is a big deal, because you feeling you have to give up your games isn’t a good feeling, so we take that angst out of the equation.

"We’ll try partnerships with our retail partners to smooth it even more with trade-in programs and things like that."

dailystar.co.uk [potentially NSFW images]

sounds like MS will actively encourage people to trade in their XboxONE towards a Scorpio through retail partnerships.

 

[Detective]

Even current consoles can go over 60hz (and some titles that have stereo-3d enabled actually do this, at 120hz; the only one I know is Trine 2 on ps4).

I think the target audience dictates the refresh rate; even if some gamers would prefer playing on higher refresh rate displays like gaming monitors, I don't see Sony or Ms supporting it.

VR could change this, who knows, given it needs at least 90hz and assuming that devs will work towards a "faster" mode for their games.

I'd say we have a 0.0001% chance of seeing 60hz+ games on next consoles xD

My personal hope is that they'll think about g-sync/freesync compatibility.

Thanks for the info bro,

Freesync added will be gold since they will use AMD all the time now.

So no need for me to look for a 144hz monitor to game on Console :/

Technically, You need a beefy hardware to support that right? If you ignore the audience for a minute, Based on the hardware, Are they capable?

 

[metareferential]

So no need for me to look for a 144hz monitor to game on Console :/

Technically, You need a beefy hardware to support that right? If you ignore the audience for a minute, Based on the hardware, Are they capable?

Unless you also plan on using it on pc, there's no point in paying premium right now anticipating something we yet don't fully know.

But I don't see why these new consoles wouldn't be capable of higher frame rates.

It just depends on the devs' choices: if they want 60hz+ they'll just manage resources accordingly.

No way though we could see AAA games running at full resolution and high fps. For those games it will still boil down to 30 vs. 60. And maybe 1080p vs. 4k.

 

[Detective]

Unless you also plan on using it on pc, there's no point in paying premium right now anticipating something we yet don't fully know.

But I don't see why these new consoles wouldn't be capable of higher frame rates.

It just depends on the devs' choices: if they want 60hz+ they'll just manage resources accordingly.

No way though we could see AAA games running at full resolution and high fps. For those games it will still boil down to 30 vs. 60. And maybe 1080p vs. 4k.

Appreciate the info and the feedback

Thanks alot

 

[AmyS]

Tim Sweeney on Xbox Scorpio and PlayStation Neo:

Epic Games co-founder and CEO Tim Sweeney is excited about the prospect of the PlayStation Neo and Xbox Scorpio, two pieces of hardware that look set to disrupt the traditional console cycle and potentially put an end to it, saying the old way of working was ineffective.

"I'm absolutely thrilled with this," Sweeney said of the mid-gen refresh in a recent interview with Eurogamer. "It gives you the best of both worlds, the upgrade cycle of the PC which ensures that people always have access to the latest and greatest hardware and games don't go out of date over a seven year cycle, together with the fact there's a box you can go and buy - or two boxes - and you're guaranteed that everything can work. And I think the configurations for developers are very reasonable.

"From an industry insider perspective, the console industry will grow and sustain its user base much better if it doesn't have to reset its user base to zero every seven years. The idea of throwing everything out and doing everything from scratch every seven years is completely crazy. And everything Epic's done with our new game development approach, involving these online games we're going to maintain over time, it's about building games where we don't have to reset our user base to zero when we want to add new features."

Both consoles are positioned to take advantage of 4K televisions, with Xbox boss Phil Spencer going as far to say that those with 1080p televisions wouldn't see the benefit of the added power offered by the likes of Scorpio. Is 4K support the right route to take with these new consoles?

"There's value to 4K," said Sweeney. "These 4K television are incredibly high quality and becoming very economical so supporting them will be good. From a typical users TV, a lot of users are going to prefer having that 3 to 4 times the computing power applied towards making the existing number of pixels look that much better. I think games will choose different routes. At any rate every game should be expected to deliver a 3X or better improvement in graphics quality as a result of this new hardware - whether they do it through higher resolution or prettier pixels is a decision for each game, and different games will exploit it in different ways."

"I feel like consoles will remain in balance," he said. "You can see in some of the most complex games at the moment, the CPU is having no trouble keeping up with complex scenarios. As game developers, you can spend far more time doing far more optimisation for CPU than GPU - a GPU is a perfectly parallel brute force computing device, if you give us a fixed algorithm and tell us to make it two times faster there's not much we can do, you can spend a year making our game run twice as fast. If you look at what's going on in the industry, it's still propelling GPU performance growth over CPU performance growth, which is a trend I think is going to continue."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-prospect-of-playstation-neo-and-xbox-scorpio

 

[RetroPlayer]

I don't think power is everything in console design. Sega failed with the Saturn and Dreamcast. The N64 wasn't the market leader either.

Original xbox was miles behind PS2 on sales, even though more powerful.
And early 360 and PS3 had huge problems running hot, to get decent performance.

The PS4 and xbox one are both very good consoles.
Both run quiet and both are reliable.

A games console these days is just a PC anyway.
Power is easy to achieve but, getting it at a decent price point is harder.

 

[quest]

I don't think power is everything in console design. Sega failed with the Saturn and Dreamcast. The N64 wasn't the market leader either.

Original xbox was miles behind PS2 on sales, even though more powerful.
And early 360 and PS3 had huge problems running hot, to get decent performance.

The PS4 and xbox one are both very good consoles.
Both run quiet and both are reliable.

A games console these days is just a PC anyway.
Power is easy to achieve but, getting it at a decent price point is harder.

Since these are mid generation upgrades I think power is very important. They need to be powerful enough to get people to upgrade their current console. I think everyone here has a standard that needs to be met to upgrade. Mine is a console powerful enough that basically every game is 1080/60 at high/ultra settings. It will come down to the CPU. I won't pay 399.99 + in 2016 or 2017 for a jaguar/puma CPU. Will keep to many games from 60 fps.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Whenever this thread pops up I always think, Yay! new news!

One of these days/months, one of these days/months.