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[voOsh]

Lifetime bans for first offenses are too harsh -- especially for a VAC ban given before he ever competed for money. I'm 100% OK with lifetime bans for any repeated offense.

That said, assuming this clause was written in the WESG rules, the player probably should have at least alerted his team before playing the quals.

Also, it rubs me the wrong way that this only came to light after his team upset the insanely popular Virtus.Pro team. I wonder if this dirt would have been dug up otherwise? The rules are the rules and WESG has done nothing wrong but it does seem a bit awkward that this only comes up after the upset.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/smurf_account

So anyone who ever made a joke alt account during XBL free weekends is now banned from esports forever. Simple.

 

[AlephAlpha]

If you follow other popular multiplayer games you know that these companies and organizers sometimes hand out severe punishments for cheating so maybe that's why you don't cheat in the first place.

And that's why esport and the community as a whole still has a long way to go before it is taken seriously.
Legal sports courts exist for a reason.

 

[LordRaptor]

High level competition is not a 'slot'. In theory, you want the best in the world. Obviously, bans for cheating are important. But banning someone from an entire occupation - especially one they are skilled at - for an act they did at 15 seems a bit much.

I honestly find the ease with which some of you hand out life long sentences a bit disturbing.

I mean, I think VAC bans probably should have statutes of limitations, but lets not pretend that hes banned from playing videogames for life.

VAC bans apply to one specific game.

e:

So anyone who ever made a joke alt account during XBL free weekends is now banned from esports forever. Simple.

Hes not banned for having a smurf account.
He cheated on a smurf account, and did not disclose it, the WESG found out, and it WESG policy that VAC banned players are not allowed to compete.
The whole smurf account thing is sort of tangential.

 

[Mattenth]

Private groups and organizations set the rules for who competes and what conduct is expected of them. This has nothing to do with criminal law, smart guy. Your comparison is stupid.

Yeah, and we're saying that our community shouldn't support policies that punish adults' careers for mistakes they made as children?

I'd go further to say permanent bans are just wrong. We should support policies that encourage forgiveness, not ruthlessness.

Permanently ostracising someone from a community for a single mistake is just wrong. It's a wrong way to do criminal justice. It's a wrong way to manage a community.

 

[FX-GMC]

You should 100% be denied from ever competing professionally if you cheat. It's a deterrent.

Cheating at anything in life deserves a ban from professional competition? That's way to broad.

 

[SledGod]

So anyone who ever made a joke alt account during XBL free weekends is now banned from esports forever. Simple.

Just to clarify, I don't think he was banned simply for using a smurf account, but because one of the smurf accounts had a VAC ban.

Edit: Wait, is smurfing a VAC bannable offense? I'm confused now.

 

[NimbusD]

I got VAC banned for logging into my account in a high school class where we built CS maps and such. Still no idea why.

I guess this means I'm disqualified from competing in CS:GO forever. Good to know!

Yeah that's why a blanket no tolerance ban for life seems insane. There's gotta be room for error or imo eventual second chances.

 

[Marcel]

And that's why esport and the community as a whole still has a long way to go before it is taken seriously.
Legal sports courts exist for a reason.

If the player wants to challenge his ban with a legal response he is certainly within his grounds to do so. But I doubt that will happen.

 

[CookTrain]

High level competition is not a 'slot'. In theory, you want the best in the world. Obviously, bans for cheating are important. But banning someone from an entire occupation - especially one they are skilled at - for an act they did at 15 seems a bit much.

I honestly find the ease with which some of you hand out life long sentences a bit disturbing.

I guess here's how I look at it. Imagine you're the 65th best player in the world and there's a big payout for participating in a hugely publicised 64 player tournament. As the event goes, it turns out at least one of the participants has a history of cheating, near term, far term, whenever. They cheated at some point and you never did.

I can't see how the correct outcome there is to tell the honest person to "git gud" while the cheater/former cheater retains pride of place. I find it more disturbing that honest competitors are shown the door than I ever will for cheaters being ousted. Anything else just feels slimy and wrong.

 

[JambiBum]

Don't actual athletes only get temp banned from events if they get caught doping? This seems harsh

Yup and those temp bans are why you get people who keep doing it. Instead of thinking "Oh this person got permanently banned for doping I better not do it" It's "Oh this person only got a suspension I can live with that if I get caught".

 

[mullet2000]

Private groups and organizations set the rules for who competes and what conduct is expected of them. This has nothing to do with criminal law, smart guy. Your comparison is stupid.

Right to do it doesn't mean anyone has to agree with it.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I'm not familiar enough with baseball to know how severe spitballs are, so I'm not really sure how to react to the analogy. In keeping with the thread, allow me to google the term.

...

Ah, so modifying the trajectory using... well yes. Ok. I don't know if I agree with the comparison there. I'd put it a good deal above playing in the park. That's more akin to private server land. It would at least be in the realm of organised sport. Should you get docked from the draft if you cheated in the lower strata? I believe so, but hey, that's me.

Again, not super familiar with baseball, so I'm not sure if I've got a good grip on that context.

From the sounds of it, and I could be interpreting this wrong, but he wasn't playing in any organized league when he cheated, he was just randomly pubbing. So very much akin to playing in the park; a group of unaffiliated people just playing for fun. He cheated while playing in the park and that's enough for a lifetime ban from competitive play. I don't understand that mindset. If he's still cheating, then yeah, ban him for a year or two. But if he stopped cheating three years ago and never did it in an actual competition, what exactly is the goal in preventing him from competing? It seems like it's just petty vindictiveness borne out of the simplistic "CHEATERS BAD" mentality.

 

[shanafan]

Personally, I think if a kid gets caught with weed at 14, he should have drug charges on his record for life.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Should have planned ahead.

Richard Wershe Jr., also known as White Boy Rick, became the youngest FBI informant ever at age 14.

At age 17, when the FBI no longer needed him, he began selling cocaine himself and got arrested in 1987 for possession eight kilos of cocaine. He was given life in prison, but was paroled after almost 30 years in jail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wershe_Jr.

 

[LordRaptor]

Edit: Wait, is smurfing a VAC bannable offense? I'm confused now.

no

 

[Reani]

I guess here's how I look at it. Imagine you're the 65th best player in the world and there's a big payout for participating in a hugely publicised 64 player tournament. As the event goes, it turns out at least one of the participants has a history of cheating, near term, far term, whenever. They cheated at some point and you never did.

I can't see how the correct outcome there is to tell the honest person to "git gud" while the cheater/former cheater retains pride of place. I find it more disturbing that honest competitors are shown the door than I ever will for cheaters being ousted. Anything else just feels slimy and wrong.

you miss the point that he never cheated in a tournament.
he cheated in a random public deathmatch game nobody cares about when he was in high school and didnt even care about competitive gaming at the time.
its completely irrelevant

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

I think the thread title needs updating.

18 year old Pro CS:GO player banned for being caught with VAC at 15.

Or something like that.

 

[CraigerGamer]

You should 100% be denied from ever competing professionally if you cheat. It's a deterrent.

A deterrent from what? At 15 he learned that if you cheat, Valve will catch you. His current account is and has been in good standing. Wouldn't that suggest he's learned his lesson?

 

[Black_Stride]

can he just make a different account?

He got the VAC ban from a smurf account.
So making another smurf account aint exactly gonna cut it.

Plus we still know what he looks like so new account or not he'll need some serious plastic surgery and enter witness protection to fool any major tournament.

Probably easier just to appeal with whatever tournament board he is banned from.

But hey he cheated might have been 3 years ago...but he aint done his time yet.

LIFETIME!

 

[Sword Of Doom]

He was 15yrs old...

You should 100% be denied from ever competing professionally if you cheat. It's a deterrent.

Context is important

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

I don't think you can expect someone at the age of 15 to understand this at all.

Then don't invite kids to join your professional team

 

[ScaryShark]

I guess here's how I look at it. Imagine you're the 65th best player in the world and there's a big payout for participating in a hugely publicised 64 player tournament. As the event goes, it turns out at least one of the participants has a history of cheating, near term, far term, whenever. They cheated at some point and you never did.

I can't see how the correct outcome there is to tell the honest person to "git gud" while the cheater/former cheater retains pride of place. I find it more disturbing that honest competitors are shown the door than I ever will for cheaters being ousted. Anything else just feels slimy and wrong.

It's a team based competition, not individual. It should be up to the team to decide if they want this player on their side for a transgression committed 3 years prior that again, has no bearing on their skill in this competition.

 

[CookTrain]

It seems like it's just petty vindictiveness borne out of the simplistic "CHEATERS BAD" mentality.

It's not petty vindictiveness because it's not about him. It's about the people who are honest and get bumped down the ladder to accommodate cheaters.

you miss the point that he never cheated in a tournament.
he cheated in a random public deathmatch game nobody cares about when he was in high school and didnt even care about competitive gaming at the time.
its completely irrelevant

But I don't agree that it is irrelevant, that's my point.

It's a team based competition, not individual. It should be up to the team to decide if they want this player on their side for a transgression committed 3 years prior that again, has no bearing on their skill in this competition.

I'd say at the very least it should be up to the team they're facing, surely? Of course you'll take a former cheater who is highly skilled if you're on their team.

 

[Unicorn]

Yo, when I was 15 I wanted my checkers to hop back as well as forward, so I wrecked some 10 year olds at daycare who did not know how to play.


Banned from any sanctioned competitive checkers forever now.

 

[DocSeuss]

Cheating at anything in life deserves a ban from professional competition? That's way to broad.

No it isn't. In professional competition, it's generally a lot of high level competitive stuff with millions of dollars behind it.

A lot more people have access to video games. Cheating negatively impacts everyone's ability to have a good time. It's a worse crime. It deserves far, far harsher punishments.

I mean, I think VAC bans probably should have statutes of limitations, but lets not pretend that hes banned from playing videogames for life.

VAC bans apply to one specific game.

e:


Hes not banned for having a smurf account.
He cheated on a smurf account, and did not disclose it, the WESG found out, and it WESG policy that VAC banned players are not allowed to compete.
The whole smurf account thing is sort of tangential.

The fact that he cheated on a smurf account but not on his own seems to indicate he knew exactly what he was doing was wrong. And really, what 15 year old kid doesn't know that cheating is wrong?

He was 15yrs old...




Context is important

What context do you think I'm missing? That he was 15?

You know what I did when I was fifteen? I kicked everyone's ass as much as I could, and when I lost, I lost. I wasn't some pathetic cheating shitstain. If I wanted to cheat, it was in Age of Empires, against the AI, where "how do you turn this on?" was hilarious.

 

[Kinyou]

This seems really extreme. If he had cheated while he was playing professionally I'd be fine with it, but this looks like a stupid thing he did when he was 15

 

[snail_maze]

Yup and those temp bans are why you get people who keep doing it. Instead of thinking "Oh this person got permanently banned for doping I better not do it" It's "Oh this person only got a suspension I can live with that if I get caught".

I am pretty sure that they are in an " all-or-nothing" mindset either way since their reputation will forever be ruined anyway even if they can compete again.
I actually do think athletes caught doping at events should be banned permanently, but this still seems harsh, especially since it wasn't even at an event but on his spare time

 

[FX-GMC]

No it isn't. In professional competition, it's generally a lot of high level competitive stuff with millions of dollars behind it.

A lot more people have access to video games. Cheating negatively impacts everyone's ability to have a good time. It's a worse crime. It deserves far, far harsher punishments.
.

Well glad to know that my cheating in Pokemon Yellow all those days ago means I shouldn't be able to compete in any professional sport/esport.

I stand by my assessment that your wording is too broad. Not that I don't understand that you mean cheating in x means banned from competition in x. I do agree with that.

 

[Marcel]

Yeah, and we're saying that our community shouldn't support policies that punish adults' careers for mistakes they made as children?

I'd go further to say permanent bans are just wrong. We should support policies that encourage forgiveness, not ruthlessness.

Permanently ostracising someone from a community for a single mistake is just wrong. It's a wrong way to do criminal justice. It's a wrong way to manage a community.

If your career trajectory is making money from organizations and corporations that set codes of conduct for professional players, especially ones like Valve that go nuclear on your account if you cheat even casually then don't cheat. It's a severe punishment but not entirely shocking.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Hes not banned for having a smurf account.
He cheated on a smurf account, and did not disclose it, the WESG found out, and it WESG policy that VAC banned players are not allowed to compete.
The whole smurf account thing is sort of tangential.

Oh.

Still think its stupid though.

 

[ScaryShark]

I'd say at the very least it should be up to the team they're facing, surely? Of course you'll take a former cheater who is highly skilled if you're on their team.

You've never explained how the cheating on the three year old account effects this competition. You seem to just be making a moral argument.

 

[Temeculan3000]

My original steam account was VAC banned. We used to play with hacks at private LANs where everyone was fully aware we we're using hacks. It was fun for people to see what hacks could/could not do, and also clear up some misconceptions about hacks.

Anyway one time I left them enabled after a LAN and stupidity went online and was VAC banned very quickly. It was a 3 or 5 year ban IIRC, however valve extended all bans to lifetime.

So much for my low SteamID...

Anyway this seems really stupid. I don't see anything wrong with trying out hacks on Smurf account. Or with trying them out at a private LAN.

 

[Ziggs]

I loathe cheating, but this is beyond ridiculous.

Personally, I hate VAC because my steam account was once hacked. I fought with Steam to get the account back, it took months, including sending them the pictures of my serial from the games I had purchased. So finally I get the account back and I'm happy. I go to hop in a match and bam-- your account is VAC banned. I never use that account anymore-- for me, I essentially lost the games I had purchased. Haven't directly purchased a Steam game since.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

It's not petty vindictiveness because it's not about him. It's about the people who are honest and get bumped down the ladder to accommodate cheaters.

They didn't get bumped down because he cheated, they got bumped down because they aren't as good as him. He stopped cheating, turned pro, and has emerged as better than those people. That has nothing to do with the cheats he used in the past. And I hate to break this to you, but people don't watch eSports to see honesty, they watch to see skilled players. "He made a mistake years ago that affected NOBODY AT ALL, get him outta there!" Absurd.

 

[CookTrain]

You've never explained how the cheating on the three year old account effects this competition. You seem to just be making a moral argument.

I thought this being a moral stance was clear. My apologies for the confusion.

They didn't get bumped down because he cheated, they got bumped down because they aren't as good as him. He stopped cheating, turned pro, and has emerged as better than those people. That has nothing to do with the cheats he used in the past. And I hate to break this to you, but people don't watch eSports to see honesty, they watch to see skilled players. "He made a mistake years ago that affected NOBODY AT ALL, get him outta there!" Absurd.

If you think it's absurd, we likely aren't going to come to any kind of agreement. If people would rather watch skilled cheats/former cheats than marginally less skilled honest players, then I guess eSports will follow the path laid out by professional sports and all the baggage that brings too.

I just don't think that's the right path to follow. I'd rather champion honesty.

 

[OverturePT]

He created a smurf account to cheat on, he knew what he was doing.


It sucks, but he made his bed. Maybe he can appeal in the future.

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Well glad to know that my cheating in Pokemon Yellow all those days ago means I shouldn't be able to compete in any professional sport/esport.

I stand by my assessment that your wording is too broad.

Oh shit. When I was like 10 I used missingno and trade glitches in Pokemon blue. Whelp, guess I'm screwed.

 

[Reani]

its saddening to see so many people thinking this world is completely black and white and everything should be judged entirely by the book ignoring any actual event circumstances

 

[JambiBum]

I am pretty sure that they are in an " all-or-nothing" mindset either way since their reputation will forever be ruined anyway even if they can compete again.
I actually do think athletes caught doping at events should be banned permanently, but this still seems harsh, especially since it wasn't even at an event but on his spare time

Eh depending on the sport people can come back from a tarnished reputation after a while with enough apologizing. It might seem unfair to ban the kid, but he wouldn't be in this position at all if he didn't cheat in the first place.

 

[ScaryShark]

I thought this being a moral stance was clear. My apologies for the confusion.

I was confused when you made the post about him bumping someone else from the competition. Morality has little bearing to me when it comes to a competition based on merit and skill.

 

[Marcel]

He created a smurf account to cheat on, he knew what he was doing.


It sucks, but he made his bed. Maybe he can appeal in the future.

The player could certainly try legal avenues to make his case but I don't think he has much ground to stand on since he didn't disclose his past violation of the WESG code of conduct and the language seems to be clear: if you've been VAC banned ever under any circumstances, you can't compete.

 

[reckless]

I mean don't be a cheater, pretty simple idea.

 

[LordRaptor]

You've never explained how the cheating on the three year old account effects this competition. You seem to just be making a moral argument.

The ground rules for the competition are that VAC banned players are not allowed to compete.
He is a VAC banned player.

I mean... its pretty clear cut as to why being VAC banned affects his entry into this competition.

 

[cmc`]

If he'd done it while he was a professional, then fine, ban him all you want. To punish him, and his team, for something he done as a kid, is harsh, I think.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

15 year old kid makes a saturday morning cartoon account and everyone goes ape? sheeze. Slatered and screeched. I guess he wasn't saved by the bell.

 

[DC1]

Hard stuff for someone who knows how to use the internet.

That was mean and unnecessary for a cross topic discussion thread in a gaming community as wide, diverse and TRUSTED as ..

 

[dimb]

CS:Go has huge problems with people cheating in tons of different forms. Really baffling that people expect some kind of leniency here. It's important for the competitive scene to set certain standards for the community. Part of the reason for the existence of these competitive organizations and servers separate from Valve is because people needed to try and get away from the lax policy Valve took with cheaters.

 

[wesleyshark]

Cheating has consequences. 🤔

 

[Marcel]

CS:Go has huge problems with people cheating in tons of different forms. Really baffling that people expect some kind of leniency here. It's important for the competitive scene to set certain standards for the community. Part of the reason for the existence of these competitive organizations and servers separate from Valve is because people needed to try and get away from the lax policy Valve took with cheaters.

Yep. The severity of the ban is more about optics than anything else to be sure. The organization want to show they will be harsh on cheating in any capacity, even past bad behavior I guess.

 

[Rockin' Ranger]

Pro sports have traditionally dropped lifetime bans on people who have cheated, gambled, etc.

Neither of those two were banned for cheating. Currently in MLB getting caught for steroids is an 80 game suspension, and that's much stricter than it had previously been. Other forms of cheating see an 8 game suspension, which for starting pitchers is missing a single start in the rotation.

Lifetime bans for a single instance of cheating are hardly typical in traditional sports.