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[SlipperySlope]

They could have said they need to win Bluray vs. HDDVD at all costs. Maybe their other divisions had too much riding on Bluray to fail.

So they said look we realize we will make losses in the game department because we have not yet brought down the chip costs to cheaper levels, but we will likely win the overall battle of formats. Then in a year or two the chips will come down and we will have a comptetitive console as well as a winning format.

So what happened? They came out with an expensive as hell console. Sold relatively few of them at first but enough to secure the Bluray win. Within 3 years they are at half price and doing very well with a very competitive console. And they won the Bluray format war on top of that.

Its far better for them in the long run this way than to wait a year and risk losing both the Bluray war and have a dead console only because they wanted to wait until they could sell it cheaper.

But the console market for Sony is still losing considerable money. They wiped out every cent of profit they made in this industry, if my memory is correct, losing more than even the XBox 1 did. And lost, what? 30% of their market share?

I highly doubt that the Blu-Ray win will offset these losses. After all, Kutaragi (sp?) was given the boot for a reason.

I just don't agree with the "doing very well" part. They could have easily played this generation far differently, retained #1 position in the market, and saved themselves untold billions.

 

[Vinci]

It was moving ahead , and the prices were getting cheaper than Blu ray players , not to mention MS and there HD DVD add on .
Also ps3 was the only reason why some companies like WB waited to see which format to put there stuff on .
If ps3 took a year more WB would put stuff on HD DVD and that would kill Blu ray .
It's WB that made Blu ray won format war in first place and one reason was PS3 install base no matter how small it was.

But given the scenario outlined in this thread, Sony would have come rocketing out compared to limping out the way they did. Just seems like waiting to get the components to cost less and releasing the exact same system for less would have allowed Sony to avoid all of the negative sentiment towards the $599 E3 reveal - 'cause for gamers, that was a huge, 'this is game-changing' moment. People went into that 100% convinced that Sony was going to own the market with the PS3 - and then they came out feeling that this was far, far less likely. It probably led many to investing in a 360 rather than waiting.

 

[TTP]

They were so pleased that Ken Kutaragi could retire early!


Don't worry early PS3 adaptors will catch-up with PSN+!

No need to pay for that to keep playing online.

Not sure if serious tho

 

[donny2112]

Might as well ask this here. Does anyone know how much Sony gets in terms of Bluray licensing? That'll put things in perspective.

I think someone worked it out in another thread. IIRC, it worked out to less than $1 billion over 5 years, and I want to say it was $350 million over 5 years. I'm probably remembering something wrong on the exact numbers, though. The gist is that the windfall from Blu-Ray winning does not come close to making up for the losses in the gaming division that are likely partially to blame on Blu-Ray's inclusion pushing up the initial price tag on the PS3.

 

[mujun]

Thanks for the sales, guys!

PS3/360 are so close yet so far! Safe to say one more year before PS3 crosses 360?

You gotta book the party venue a year in advance?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

problem with bluray arguments is that it was only a partial reason of PS3's high cost... it made PS3 $100 more expensive, which was around 12-15% of PS3's cost at the time.... and not 50%.

So they could have launched 60GB at $499, and not have BD in it... and still lose as much money per unit sold...

And 20gig would have been $399 and a huge runaway hit leaving the 360 by the wayside. The 60 gig shipped with a lot of useless things that have nothing to do with gaming like the card readers, extra USB ports and Wifi. A 20gig $399 PS3 at launch would have eaten the competition's lunch.

 

[donny2112]

A 20gig $399 PS3 at launch would have eaten the competition's lunch.

IIRC, 20GB version were harder to come by at launch than the 60GB versions. Sony pushed buyers toward the higher price/less loss model. There was speculation that the 120GB Slim shortages around Christmas were a similar push of users toward a higher priced model to stem losses.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

IIRC, 20GB version were harder to come by at launch than the 60GB versions. Sony pushed buyers toward the higher price/less loss model. There was speculation that the 120GB Slim shortages around Christmas were a similar push of users toward a higher priced model to stem losses.

But the 20gigs were in short supply from Sony's own doing. The purposely made less of the cheaper model to push the higher end model. But remember in Japan the 20gig was sold for over a year and only being replaced when the 40gig came out.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

problem with bluray arguments is that it was only a partial reason of PS3's high cost... it made PS3 $100 more expensive, which was around 12-15% of PS3's cost at the time.... and not 50%.

So they could have launched 60GB at $499, and not have BD in it... and still lose as much money per unit sold...

It's true that bluray was not the only reason for the high cost. Cell + XDR RAM added a considerable amount too.

But I don't think they would have sold the PS3 for $100 cheaper if it cost $100 less. They would still be losing ~$230 per system. That would be nearly 50% per system. :O Of course, they wouldn't have lost as much if they reduced the cost by $100.

 

[lowrider007]

Blaming poor PS3 sales on shortages got old two years ago.

Try reading the thread.

I love that people are still making a joke of this while this pretty much proves that the shortages were very real.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21380689&postcount=356

Even here in the UK many places were out of stock on occasion during the previous couple of months.

Gamestop

"on an average daily basis, our U.S. stores were out of stock for the PS3 for 80 percent of the time"

 

[Safe Bet]

Once more unto the breach my HD brethren. We've gained the upper hand. The Wii beast is nearly slain!

The 60 gig shipped with a lot of useless things that have nothing to do with gaming like the card readers, extra USB ports and Wifi..

WiFi is definitely not a useless feature.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

WiFi is definitely not a useless feature.

For gaming it is. The box still has an Ethernet and can still go online. Having wifi was a bonus, not a requirement.

 

[Metalmurphy]

For gaming it is. The box still has an Ethernet and can still go online. Having wifi was a bonus, not a requirement.

A pretty damn good bonus and totally NOT useless. I'd say not having one is a reason not to buy one. With my current setup i'd need a 100 feet cable to get to my PS3.

 

[Melchiah]

Nobody interested in Uncharted 2 or LBP, either. Do you really want to start that fight again in here?

3. I like the library of games available - 62%

10. I am looking forward to buying a specific game - 12%

Seems to me they might be.

 

[2San]

A pretty damn good bonus and totally NOT useless. I'd say not having one is a reason not to buy one. With my current setup i'd need a 100 feet cable to get to my PS3.

Or get a wifi adapter?

 

[Metalmurphy]

Or get a wifi adapter?

I don't have to, it's included. See how totally not useless it is?

 

[2San]

I don't have to, it's included. See how totally not useless it is?

Yeah, but that does make it bonus not a requirement.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Yeah, but that does make it bonus not a requirement.

So? Unless its a requirement it's useless?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

A pretty damn good bonus and totally NOT useless. I'd say not having one is a reason not to buy one. With my current setup i'd need a 100 feet cable to get to my PS3.

I have my PS3 hardwired because streaming media over my network wirelessly causes it to skip but hardwired it works fine. It is redundant to have it on the machine. And if talking about cutting down the price at launch like we were discussing then it's not the time to start throwing in extra unneeded stuff. Is it nice to have? Yes, is it required for gaming? No.

 

[Metalmurphy]

I have my PS3 hardwired because streaming media over my network wirelessly causes it to skip but hardwired it works fine. It is redundant to have it on the machine. And if talking about cutting down the price at launch like we were discussing then it's not the time to start throwing in extra unneeded stuff. Is it nice to have? Yes, is it required for gaming? No.

No one claimed it was required. But there's a long way between not being required and being useless.

Built in wifi is a MAJOR selling point of the PS3 and totally useful.

 

[H_Prestige]

I think someone worked it out in another thread. IIRC, it worked out to less than $1 billion over 5 years, and I want to say it was $350 million over 5 years. I'm probably remembering something wrong on the exact numbers, though. The gist is that the windfall from Blu-Ray winning does not come close to making up for the losses in the gaming division that are likely partially to blame on Blu-Ray's inclusion pushing up the initial price tag on the PS3.

I'm pretty sure the disc licensing is only one part of the chain. They wouldn't push so hard (harder than other members of the BD consortium) just for some pennies per disc.

For gaming it is.

It makes it easier to play online without having to buy an extra third party or first party accessory. They aren't always cheap and they may require extra cables and a power outlet. Having it built in is much better, especially considering how ubiquitous WiFi has become in electronics.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I wonder what the market share was between 12:01am and 12:02am on the 26th of May 2010.

Seriously... you can prove anything with stats.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

No one claimed it was required. But there's a long way between not being required and being useless.

Built in wifi is a MAJOR selling point of the PS3 and totally useful.

That's great and 6 USB ports would be useful too but useless for gaming. Wifi is a redundant feature of the machine. And Sony agrees since they shipped the 20gig for over a year without wifi in it. Again, if you are talking about getting the price as low as you can, it's ok to leave out unneeded features.

Just look at the brand new TIVO Premiere that every tech head is drooling over. No wifi in the box.

It makes it easier to play online without having to buy an extra third party or first party accessory. They aren't always cheap and they may require extra cables and a power outlet. Having it built in is much better, especially considering how ubiquitous WiFi has become in electronics.

Making it easier doesn't stop it from being redundant. Wifi isn't ubiquitous in electronics, see the Tivo example and look at the vast majority of Blu-ray players with built in Netflix streaming. The vast majority of them do no include Wifi.

 

[SlipperySlope]

No one claimed it was required. But there's a long way between not being required and being useless.

Built in wifi is a MAJOR selling point of the PS3 and totally useful.

I always found it odd that both the PS3 and the Wii had built-in Wifi, but the 360 does not.

 

[SlipperySlope]

That's great and 6 USB ports would be useful too but useless for gaming. Wifi is a redundant feature of the machine. And Sony agrees since they shipped the 20gig for over a year without wifi in it. Again, if you are talking about getting the price as low as you can, it's ok to leave out unneeded features.

Just look at the brand new TIVO Premiere that every tech head is drooling over. No wifi in the box.



Making it easier doesn't stop it from being redundant. Wifi isn't ubiquitous in electronics, see the Tivo example and look at the vast majority of Blu-ray players with built in Netflix streaming. The vast majority of them do no include Wifi.

None of my consoles would be online if they didn't include WiFi. Still think it's useless/unneeded?

Edit - Wiring a house for Internet in this day and age is completely outdated. Especially near the TV.

Edit 2 - Can we just accept the fact that in this category, both Sony and Nintendo were more forward-thinking than Microsoft?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I always found it odd that both the PS3 and the Wii had built-in Wifi, but the 360 does not.

Not every PS3 had Wifi and the Wii doesn't have an Ethernet port on it. I don't put any of my systems on wifi so I was forced to buy an adapter for the Wii to take it online.

None of my consoles would be online if they didn't include WiFi. Still think it's useless/unneeded?

What a stupid question. Of course. You could always get an adapter to serve the same purpose. It's still not a requirement since the PS3 already has an ethernet port on the machine.

 

[Metalmurphy]

That's great and 6 USB ports would be useful too but useless for gaming.

What? oO Did you really make that comparison? Got any more dumb shit to say?

Wifi is a redundant feature of the machine.

No. People want it. People use it. Therefore it's not redudant. Redundant would be 2 ethernet ports.

And Sony agrees since they shipped the 20gig for over a year without wifi in it.

And then killed it. And all other models have wifi. What does that tell you?

Again, if you are talking about getting the price as low as you can, it's ok to leave out unneeded features.

And they left wifi, why? Cause it's NOT unneeded.

Just look at the brand new TIVO Premiere that every tech head is drooling over. No wifi in the box.

yay! More dumb shit.

Making it easier doesn't stop it from being redundant. Wifi isn't ubiquitous in electronics, see the Tivo example and look at the vast majority of Blu-ray players with built in Netflix streaming. The vast majority of them do no include Wifi.

Going in circles now.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

yay! More dumb shit.

Post what you want but I make it a point now not to argue with Euro Sony GAF since it just goes in circles with you guys.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Not every PS3 had Wifi and the Wii doesn't have an Ethernet port on it. I don't put any of my systems on wifi so I was forced to buy an adapter for the Wii to take it online.



What a stupid question. Of course. You could always get an adapter to serve the same purpose. It's still not a requirement since the PS3 already has an ethernet port on the machine.

The adapter is more of a patch for an outdated system. I'd rather the console include WiFi and have it included in the price, than to buy a separate part.

But that's just me. It's just a mess having so many Ethernet cables running around.

 

[Truespeed]

I wonder what the market share was between 12:01am and 12:02am on the 26th of May 2010.

Seriously... you can prove anything with stats.

70% of stats are made up 100% of the time.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Post what you want but I make it a point now not to argue with Euro Sony GAF since it just goes in circles with you guys.

I don't even have a PS3. I'll defend them when they do something right. Why can't you do the same?

 

[lowrider007]

That's great and 6 USB ports would be useful too but useless for gaming. Wifi is a redundant feature of the machine. And Sony agrees since they shipped the 20gig for over a year without wifi in it. Again, if you are talking about getting the price as low as you can, it's ok to leave out unneeded features.

Just look at the brand new TIVO Premiere that every tech head is drooling over. No wifi in the box.

uh?, are you serious? Built-in in Wi-Fi is a massive plus, I get near max bandwidth capacity with on my PS3, never had an issue gaming with it since launch and I can even stream 1080p video over it, to call Wi-Fi a "redundant feature" is madness, I've never once plugged in a cat5 cable in my system and I never intend to either.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I don't even have a PS3. I'll defend them when they do something right. Why can't you do the same?

They did do something right. In order to bring the cost down on the machine they removed useless things like card readers and the wifi.

uh?, are you serious? Built-in in Wi-Fi is a massive plus, I get near max bandwidth capacity with on my PS3, never had an issue gaming with it since launch and I can even stream 1080p video over it, to call Wi-Fi a "redundant feature" is madness.

It's redundant since there is already an Ethernet port. So there are two ways the machine can go online when it only needs one. If you have broadband internet you have ethernet, not everyone has wifi so if you need to cut out features to bring costs down it would make sense (like Sony did) to remove the wifi from it.

Btw, I'm not talking RIGHT NOW so don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm talking about launching the machine at a lower price.

 

[imtehman]

are people really not getting it? since the console launches began we've seen the same cycle over and over again.

everytime the ps3 drops thier price every 2 years to lower the gap between the two systems.

the year between ps3 price drops the x360 drops the price and increases that gap.

the gap has always been between 4-7 million and i don't see that changing, but we get the same posts every year of people hopeful that the ps3 will finally tie up 2nd place with the x360.

Let it go, Nintendo already won =/

 

[womfalcs3]

They did do something right. In order to bring the cost down on the machine they removed useless things like card readers and the wifi.

It's redundant since there is already an Ethernet port. So there are two ways the machine can go online when it only needs one.

Some people can't connect via ethernet. Other people can't connect via wi-fi. So that configuration caters to all customers.

In my apartment, my router is right next to the PS3, so I go wired. When I visit my parents, there is no way I can go wired. The router is on a different floor and on the opposite side of the house.

 

[Safe Bet]

For gaming it is. The box still has an Ethernet and can still go online. Having wifi was a bonus, not a requirement.

Standard Wifi equals a greater chance each machine will be connected to the internet.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Some people can't connect via ethernet. Other people can't connect via wi-fi. So that configuration caters to all customers.

In my apartment, my router is right next to the PS3, so I go wired. When I visit my parents, there is no way I can go wired. The router is on a different floor and on the opposite side of the house.

Right, but by having an ethernet port you allow the user to upgrade to wireless through any third party eithernet bridge. I guess you could have wireless only and connect an ethernet port like the Wii but IMO it makes more sense to have them all wired then offer wireless as opposed to having just wireless with a wired option. Like my examples of the Blu-ray players and Tivos all being wired only.

Standard Wifi equals a greater chance each machine will be connected to the internet.

And again, look at stand alone Blu-ray players and Tivo units being shipped where it's pretty much a requirement for the system to be online and they don't include Wifi to bring the cost down. Sony was very smart in removing Wifi from the 20gig launch units at the time to bring costs down.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Post what you want but I make it a point now not to argue with Euro Sony GAF since it just goes in circles with you guys.

Ahh there we go. Good old Xenophobic remarks on GAF. Been a while.

They did do something right. In order to bring the cost down on the machine they removed useless things like card readers and the wifi.

They never removed wi-fi. One model never had it. That model was killed off.

It's redundant since there is already an Ethernet port. So there are two ways the machine can go online when it only needs one.

Right, so I'm sure your policy on them not shipping HDMI cables was the same... Also why put more then 1 USB ports? Get a hub. Infact, why put an ethernet cable at all. You don't HAVE to go online. Make it an external adapter they can buy.

If you have broadband internet you have ethernet, not everyone has wifi so if you need to cut out features to bring costs down it would make sense (like Sony did) to remove the wifi from it.

Not everyone has the means to get it hooked up through ethernet...

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

802.11g is pretty cheap, though and I would bet that they actually made more money including wifi because more people connected online and bought stuff from the PSN store than would have with an ethernet cable.

Wireless controllers are redundant too, amirite? Since you have two ways to connect a controller?

 

[charlequin]

I think he's talking about the losses that they'd be hitting on each console in 2008 and 2009 would not have offset the increased software sales by having that many more hardware units in the wild.

Right, except they obviously would have and only a delusional mind would think otherwise

I don't really agree about early adopters having been screwed with the PS3 because of the price.

If anything, late adopters are screwed because they can't have all the features of a launch PS3 even if they're willing to pay extra for them.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

802.11g is pretty cheap, though and I would bet that they actually made more money including wifi because more people connected online and bought stuff from the PSN store than would have with an ethernet cable.

Wireless controllers are redundant too, amirite? Since you have two ways to connect a controller?

Well, it was enough of a cost for Sony to take it out of the 20gig unit. And funny thing you mention the wireless controllers cause if you buy a DS3 by itself it does not come with a USB cable does it? You know why? Cause you got one with your PS3 and it would be redundant to put the cable in there even though it should be there since you can't charge two controllers at once. Need to cut costs where they can.

I still say that a $399 DVD version of the PS3 minus the non-gaming features like extra USB ports, card reader, and wifi would have blown the 360 out of the water at launch and Sony would have been the HD king.

They should have sold a second PS3 with BC and all the bells and whistles plus Blu-ray for $599 to give people an option of a high end sku if they wanted to and have a media sku and a gaming sku for way cheaper. IMO of course.

 

[DMeisterJ]

But the 20gigs were in short supply from Sony's own doing. The purposely made less of the cheaper model to push the higher end model. But remember in Japan the 20gig was sold for over a year and only being replaced when the 40gig came out.

Let me get you a tinfoil hat since there is no possible way for you to prove this as true.

Sony wanting to sell less consoles (which is a direct correlation to the lower priced system being unavailable) is such a stupid thought.

--

this thread now has nothing to do with the OP anymore btw.

 

[Boney]

:lol Segata owns the thread.

I didn't think it was possible to abuse someone like that through message boards :lol

 

[SlipperySlope]

Right, but by having an ethernet port you allow the user to upgrade to wireless through any third party eithernet bridge. I guess you could have wireless only and connect an ethernet port like the Wii but IMO it makes more sense to have them all wired then offer wireless as opposed to having just wireless with a wired option. Like my examples of the Blu-ray players and Tivos all being wired only.



And again, look at stand alone Blu-ray players and Tivo units being shipped where it's pretty much a requirement for the system to be online and they don't include Wifi to bring the cost down. Sony was very smart in removing Wifi from the 20gig launch units at the time to bring costs down.

Again, why should I waste my money on a patch to go WiFi? We need to stop living in the past.

Edit - Also, your logic reminds me of my coworker. Both are insane.

 

[AdventureRacing]

I just can't understand the predicitons for this year. Firstly everyone is predicting the 360 will sell the same as last year. Last year MS did pretty much nothing to improve sales. This year we are going to see a slim, NATAL, most likely a price cut, a halo release and on top of that MS is going to have a gigantic advertising push to go with it all. I think MS will sell considerably more this year than last year.

Than people are predicting that the PS3 will sell far more than last year. I don't understand where this is coming from. I think in Japan with no slim/FFXIII bump at the end of this year it is pretty much a certainty that they will sell less PS3's this year than they did last year.

In Europe and the US sales are no doubt higher now than they were pre slim but they won't get the massive spike in sales that they saw lat year when the slim released. Europe may still see some increased in sales from GT5 but i don't think it will be that much.

I could end up being way off but my prediction is that the 360 will go close to if not outsell the PS3 WW for this year.

Most people are still acting the same way they did PS3 slim. They are predicting everything to continue on it's current trajectory without looking at any other factors.

As was mentioned above people do this every year. 360 starts to pull ahead and people start talking about the PS3's demise. Than Sony makes a move all of a sudden people start talking about how the gap is about to close and the PS3 will move ahead only for things to turn around again.

 

[Nafai1123]

Well, it was enough of a cost for Sony to take it out of the 20gig unit. And funny thing you mention the wireless controllers cause if you buy a DS3 by itself it does not come with a USB cable does it? You know why? Cause you got one with your PS3 and it would be redundant to put the cable in there even though it should be there since you can't charge two controllers at once. Need to cut costs where they can.

I still say that a $399 DVD version of the PS3 minus the non-gaming features like extra USB ports, card reader, and wifi would have blown the 360 out of the water at launch and Sony would have been the HD king.

They should have sold a second PS3 with BC and all the bells and whistles plus Blu-ray for $599 to give people an option of a high end sku if they wanted to and have a media sku and a gaming sku for way cheaper. IMO of course.

They wouldn't have been able to standardize blu-ray for gaming applications though. Sony didn't compromise when it came to including standards which they predicted would be beneficial in the future. This includes blu-ray and wifi, which are now some of the biggest selling points of the system. Seems like they made the right decision overall.

 

[mujun]

I'd be interested to see what percentage of people use the Wifi in the PS3.

Personally, if it was more than 30% of the total, I'd say it's "worthwhile".

 

[Apath]

I'd be interested to see what percentage of people use the Wifi in the PS3.

Personally, if it was more than 30% of the total, I'd say it's "worthwhile".

I personally think Sony should have tried to cut out as much as possible to get the PS3 price down at launch. The biggest reason why PS3 stumbled so much at launch was based around that $600 price tag.

 

[FoxSpirit]

I think the PS3 global market share jump can be attributed to one thing:

Who is that and how does he relate to PS3?
fake-edit: Okay, so it's Kevin Butler. Did he do an ad?

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I personally think Sony should have tried to cut out as much as possible to get the PS3 price down at launch. The biggest reason why PS3 stumbled so much at launch was based around that $600 price tag.

Exactly, too many defenders here are missing the point that we are talking about lowering the price of the unit at launch... not today.