-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS3 OFW 3.56 New Feature: Rootkit (allegedly)
- Thread starter Vagabundo
- Start date
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
...wow.Withnail said:
Nothing gets by you!
I don't get this shit. People are hacking games all over the place on the PS3 right now and it's fucking ruining games. Sony wants to stop it so if you want to access PSN you have to pass their verification tests.IrishNinja said:
Want to play Mario Bros on your HDTV then don't fucking use PSN.
This.LiquidMetal14 said:
I'm not corporate cheering. I am well aware that Sony has their own best interest at heart, as they should. I support their decision to keep hacked consoles offline because it benefits me as well, I do not want people hacking online games. I'm not against modding consoles. Just keep it off PSN/online gaming.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Not necessarily you but how people on the internet misunderstand the intent or wording. Anyways, I've stated my opinions, you're free to your own as welljorma said:
IrishNinja
Member
Ploid 3.0 said:
again, though - i get that, and if i took a real interest in PS3 homebrew, id likely look into getting an offline slim or something if the scene warranted it. a region-free HDD loader for PS1/2 would be pretty cool by me, for one.
all im saying is that i dont have to be pleased with it, and dont see where others are so much. cheating makes sense, being anti-homebrew/jailbreaking/fully owning the console you bought, not so much. like many here though, i'm not genuinely adding to the conversation so ill respectfully try to bow out.
right after this!
Dibbz said:
ima go play mario brothers right now, you bastard!
i shouldnt have to keep saying this, but cheats ruining your online experience is shitty, and a totally legit reason to be pleased here. my dismay was with the other points.
Inanna said:
i get this, fair enough.
BobTheFork
Member
If someone robs a store and the store owner puts in a camera and you just fucking hate cameras....then who's fault is it the camera is there, the thief or the store owner?IrishNinja said:
I'm not trolling I'm asking for your opinion.
I'm not calling the CFW people all thieves but there are pirates and cheaters and that's why we get this. Sony didn't do this to stop people from playing SNES games.
Inanna said:
Ive no problems with them keeping PSN clean. Just keep it off my PS3. I ain't running CFW so why should I get compromised security or privacy.
It is a pretty shotgun like solution. They open a big hole to give them the ability to make the checks hard to pass and in doing so give other a big hole to exploit.
gregor7777
Banned
I don't understand why some of you are advocating bans though. Why not just keep systems with CFW off PSN? Allow them to switch back to OFW and play the online games they bought on the system they bought.
Why assume they are doing it to cheat or steal? Neither of those will work on OFW to my knowledge so why not let them switch back at will?
The 360 situation is different as the only use for modified DVD drive firmware is playing copied games. Bans are justified there, IMO.
Not on PS3.
Why assume they are doing it to cheat or steal? Neither of those will work on OFW to my knowledge so why not let them switch back at will?
The 360 situation is different as the only use for modified DVD drive firmware is playing copied games. Bans are justified there, IMO.
Not on PS3.
is it not possible that sony have used a different key than the one that got cracked to encrypt the code that gets sent?
that would be a pretty easy way to stop hackers from exploiting it
and isnt this basically equivalent to saying that because you can trick DNS, any web browser is a rootkit because you could redirect someone into downloading whatever.
it would be a security flaw in whatever is providing your DNS, not the PS3 or PSN
that would be a pretty easy way to stop hackers from exploiting it
and isnt this basically equivalent to saying that because you can trick DNS, any web browser is a rootkit because you could redirect someone into downloading whatever.
it would be a security flaw in whatever is providing your DNS, not the PS3 or PSN
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
This is what it comes to when piracy and network/consumer security is involved.
Metalmurphy
Member
It's their network service, they run it how they want. If that includes sending code when you login to it then so be it.iapetus said:
Being your console you can simply unplug the network cable or disconnect it from the wireless router. Problem solved.
Vagabundo said:
The problem is though, you are making an assumption about how this works that seems to be contrary to what little we know about it. You aren't being asked to compromise your security or privacy, because honestly (and especially with the chat logs being posted), I'm starting to really call into question the dubious nature of any kind of security concerns that this may have on the PS3. To me, it's definitely not analogous to the rootkit from the Sony BMG days from the description we have...
Grampa Simpson
Banned
There is some reality to that - assuming that the changes that are in the new firmware are what the OP says they are. It feels like it might be in the form of a giant backfire. Up until now, when Sony wanted to install new software on a connected PS3, it had to ask - literally - click here to install. The change now is that they don't. In fact, they've set it up so that it can pretty much be done automatically upon login.Raist said:
What this all means, is if someone compromises PSN itself, they can install their own software on each and every PS3 that connects to PSN silently. Chances are that that will just be software to turn PS3s into spam zombies or LOIC zombies or something, but it could just as easily brick them all.
Someone more malicious could set it up so that infected PS3s also connect to a webserver to download new code at the same time as they connect to PSN. That new code could also be anything. It could turn the PS3 into any type of zombie or brick or whatever.
The problem is that Sony just made the problem much worse.
kamorra said:
We're not talking about the issue at heart here I think, just what is going on in this particular thread.
NO ONE has any idea of what FW 3.56 does exactly, so I don't really understand how people are now saying that because of this hackers will find a way into your PS3 and make it run malicious code. If anything, this could theorically have been possible the day the keys were released by hackers. Sony adding this security thing doesn't make things worse at all in this regard.
On the other side you have people saying "if this prevents cheating (as supposedly happened according to the CODBO story) well good thing".
Not sure exactly how both reactions would be objectively equivalent, but whatever.
iapetus said:
What's funny with this line of logic is that CFW can pose a risk to others who choose not to go down that route either malicious or just in loss of enjoyment for a product they purchased (read: Modern Warfare 2 atm), Sony is responding to this to keep them the fuck off of PSN.
I would love love to read posts here should somehow an attack happen on the PS3 that ends up bricking them, it will of course be Sony's fault for trying to stop the CFW community.
To be clear, I do enjoy CFW, if it wasnt for Netflix I would probably be playing around with it..but I do not share the sense of entiltement that is common here. I enjoy the cat and mouse game but also think that Sony has every right to nuke the shit out of you.
Regardless of the evil megacorps, they spent millions (billions) getting these toys into our hands, it is not so far fetched that they do not enjoy the loss of profit so a few can play roms which always leads to being able to play "backups" which is where the real problem for them lies, not that I think it is applicable for the small subset on gaf who is truly enthusiastic about CFW but eventually this will be made easy enough for Joe sixpack.
IMHO this is much ado about nothing.
For better or for worse, you have never had root on your own PS3 unless you jailbroke it, so for most people this is not a big deal.
The odds of a successful malicious attack are fairly low, because any snippet of executable code sent from Sony is going to be digitally signed with a new key that is unknown to us, and Sony have already fixed their digital signature bug that allowed the hackers to derive the private key. Honestly, if the hackers exploit it, the first thing they are going to do is open the system back up to homebrew with it!
If you are running a hypothetical 3.56 CFW it's unlikely that this will come in and "auto update" your system, the executable payload will probably be very small and the technique that it uses to verify the system will be fairly simple because they will not want normal users to be affected by this (imagine if it took a minute every time you logged into PSN because it was going to scan your hard drive for homebrew...unlikely). It's more like Mathieulh said, I would expect them to verify the integrity of the lvl1/lvl2 code in memory, which would probably take at most a couple of milliseconds.
I feel that for now Sony will go the route of simply denying access to PSN with this, provided they feel they can guarantee that if you give up on CFW and go to OFW, you will have a hard time going back. I think for now they are very willing to accept that if you do go to OFW, to downgrade or go back to CFW will involve a hardware mod chip (that does not exist commercially yet) that uses the other exploit that fail0verflow found...
It should also be pointed out that I believe this has been used by Microsoft to keep modded Xboxes off XBL since the Xbox 1 era...no one cried about it then...basically, it's like this, if you are on CFW, don't expect to be able to log into PSN.
I posted this about the history of the technique - note that MS was never able to defeat it when they were up against AOL in this case:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25657447&postcount=5022
For better or for worse, you have never had root on your own PS3 unless you jailbroke it, so for most people this is not a big deal.
The odds of a successful malicious attack are fairly low, because any snippet of executable code sent from Sony is going to be digitally signed with a new key that is unknown to us, and Sony have already fixed their digital signature bug that allowed the hackers to derive the private key. Honestly, if the hackers exploit it, the first thing they are going to do is open the system back up to homebrew with it!
If you are running a hypothetical 3.56 CFW it's unlikely that this will come in and "auto update" your system, the executable payload will probably be very small and the technique that it uses to verify the system will be fairly simple because they will not want normal users to be affected by this (imagine if it took a minute every time you logged into PSN because it was going to scan your hard drive for homebrew...unlikely). It's more like Mathieulh said, I would expect them to verify the integrity of the lvl1/lvl2 code in memory, which would probably take at most a couple of milliseconds.
I feel that for now Sony will go the route of simply denying access to PSN with this, provided they feel they can guarantee that if you give up on CFW and go to OFW, you will have a hard time going back. I think for now they are very willing to accept that if you do go to OFW, to downgrade or go back to CFW will involve a hardware mod chip (that does not exist commercially yet) that uses the other exploit that fail0verflow found...
It should also be pointed out that I believe this has been used by Microsoft to keep modded Xboxes off XBL since the Xbox 1 era...no one cried about it then...basically, it's like this, if you are on CFW, don't expect to be able to log into PSN.
I posted this about the history of the technique - note that MS was never able to defeat it when they were up against AOL in this case:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25657447&postcount=5022
Beer Monkey
Member
tzare said:
The system 'phones home' when you boot it up as long as it can see playstation.net on the internet. This is regardless of whether you log in to PSN or even have an account.
If boot time, instead of login time, is when the rootkit requests and executes code, then this is a PS3 issue and not a PSN issue.
The Faceless Master
Member
but nobody doubts his word, people on the pro-Sony side dislike him because of his involvement in the scene and people on the pro-Consumer side dislike him because he always teases what he knows and mentions he knew it all along when someone else does something cool. people just generally have a lot of reasons to dislike him, but that doesn't mean people don't believe him...Raist said:
Metalmurphy
Member
Games come with firmware update on the disc don't they?Vagabundo said:
Privacy issues aside, TBH I'm just pissed that it looks like they found a way to stop CFW users from getting online.
Oh well, looks like the PS3 that was only going to be used as a media centre and occasional (legit) ROM emulator will now be used for far more grey-area stuffs like backups and hacked (read: Dead Rising 2) games.
Oh well, looks like the PS3 that was only going to be used as a media centre and occasional (legit) ROM emulator will now be used for far more grey-area stuffs like backups and hacked (read: Dead Rising 2) games.
No because in the dns case you need a lot moré things, like a poisoned dns server for starters. Plus the end user interaction to download that file.panda21 said:
Anyway even when its pretty bad, i cant see how would anyone could exploit it easily. There is just too many things apart from the trojan needed to be useful for hackers. As long as it doesnt just open a port all the time it should not be a problem.
Sony and trojans. A love story.
Also, what happens when hackers discover how to send remote commands and they use it to install cfw in +3.56 consoles with a couple of end user steps? Lol
The Faceless Master
Member
this isn't Sony specific, but it's hilarious how these companies try to act like they own the software despite you owning the hardware... EXCEPT WHEN YOUR CONSOLE BREAKS DURING A FIRMWARE UPDATE... then they're like "lol, not my problem!"
RyanDG said:
True and hopefully we get more details in the next while. The homebrewers are eagerly dissecting it as we speak.
Even if they did manage to security it. I still don't like that Sony could run code on my system even if I login to PSN. I like to approve anything that runs on it and I don't like not know what it does. If it start scanning through my hard drive connected to my PS3 I'd be pissed.
And I don't like that the PS3 reports home whenever I turn it on either.
captmcblack
Member
Thank God they were able to do great stuff like this so I don't have to worry about people using aimbots in Killzone! Sony's benevolence is never-ending!
SolidusDave
Member
So from what I understand, Sony successfully (potentially forever) blocked the newest PS3 hacking stuff. So if you want homebrew, pirating games and/or cheating you need to buy one of those jailbreak devices to downgrade the firmware, jailbreak the PS3 with a CFM and then update to the newest OFW. Correct?
So this means the mass market can't jump on it anymore (so easily), reducing the numbers to only the people who desire the mentioned aspects hard enough.
On top of that, they (just like MS) added ways to easily detect and block anyone using a cracked PS3 (from the already, in theory, limited pool of people) once they connect the console to the internet/log into PSN. Potentially locking PSN down (at least you won't have access for too long, either via DNS trick or because you get banned sooner or later).
Sorry if I got something wrong.
I can see why some guys wearing tinfoil hats have problems with the second part, but still... that was, again, a reaction of a company trying to secure their product&service (for them and for users that don't use the hacks). Basically, it would not be there today if hackers didn't crack the PS3 and made it necessary (I mean, 3.56 seems to be pretty effective and it's not like they have much choice here).
So this means the mass market can't jump on it anymore (so easily), reducing the numbers to only the people who desire the mentioned aspects hard enough.
On top of that, they (just like MS) added ways to easily detect and block anyone using a cracked PS3 (from the already, in theory, limited pool of people) once they connect the console to the internet/log into PSN. Potentially locking PSN down (at least you won't have access for too long, either via DNS trick or because you get banned sooner or later).
Sorry if I got something wrong.
I can see why some guys wearing tinfoil hats have problems with the second part, but still... that was, again, a reaction of a company trying to secure their product&service (for them and for users that don't use the hacks). Basically, it would not be there today if hackers didn't crack the PS3 and made it necessary (I mean, 3.56 seems to be pretty effective and it's not like they have much choice here).
maniac-kun
Member
well you must be a pirate thenVagabundo said:
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Would you rather risk updating it with official manufacturer FW or charlie with his own computers in moms basement FW?The Faceless Master said:
FW on any device brings risks of bricking. Most of the time the intended SW updates don't do a thing. It's the CFW that has to step through land mines to install that risks your console or handheld of bricking.
BMF said:
Oh, so all a hacker has to do is compromise the playstation network, find and use the tools that create the auto run software, create something malicious, distribute it through PSN, and then all playstations turn into spam zombies. All without sony noticing. Seems likely as fuck, IMO.
