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PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news
- Thread starter CozMick
- Start date
PetriP-TNT
Member
HINT: It's the latter choice.
The Lamonster
Member
Dude, I've been on GAF for years. I still do not know. It's basically jeff_rigby: the thread.
Just let him make his posts and continue living your life. As far as I know, the PS3 web browser has never been updated and is rarely used by the vast majority of PS3 owners.
StoppedInTracks
Member
I really like those jeff_rigby's posts with bold, red sentences, lots of links nobody ever clicks thru and massive quotes of information that is 100% irrevelant to PS3 Web Browser.
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
Im still waiting for jeff to give us the punch line.
BruiserBear
Banned
Every time this thread gets bumped I get an amused grin on my face.
There is something funny about a rumored PS3 browser update thread that goes on for years.
There is something funny about a rumored PS3 browser update thread that goes on for years.
StoppedInTracks
Member
its.... its a cookbook!
Welcome to insanity
Rigby can't let go. He doesn't get that the "update" isn't coming / real.
The Lamonster
Member
The update is called PS4.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The following is obvious and there is no glory in pointing out the obvious.
Sony has a big investment in the PS3 and the design supports more than Games. Witness the Xbox and speculation on its future as a Home Media Center. The PS3 with Blu-ray, IPTV and DLNA (obvious) with some not so obvious abilities has an even greater chance to be an all in one, "does everything" Media Center and more for Sony in the home.
"It only does everything", first to make money for Sony and to support Sony products. Second, features to make the platform attractive. We can see many of the first generation features in the PS3 now; they will be updated (I posted essentially the same PS3 feature upgrade list below months ago).
Browser from Netfront to Webkit2 HTML5
DLNA from 1.0 to 1.5 with RVU version 2 (Webkit UI) using DLNA to stream from Cablebox & Satellite DVR confirmed (Xbox already supporting)*
Chat upgraded to Google and Skype Chat
Video and Picture editing already announced confirmed
Email added (Vita has email)
Full social networking and media sharing
Contact Manager used with email, Google Chat and Friends lists for Games. Contact Manager could be used with WEBRTC to support Google Chat. Example video of WebRTC
Apps from the Sony Store
PlayMemories Studio
Playview
Free and for purchase IPTV apps (100's)
Editor (text) NEW Browser supports clipboard as well as cut and paste; Editor is a given.
Home control (4Home) Mentioned in the Sony Snap developers site.
Remote PC desktop
Domino's Pizza app (free)
AND MORE!
Not so obvious is that the PS3 will most likely support 4K blu-ray with a firmware update. It will support 4K home movie video display and editing. It will support Zooming into 4K home movies and at the same time downscale to 1080P TVs.
It will support IPTV using h.265 instead of h.264 allowing 3-D and higher resolution video streams.
I mentioned that 2012 game changers will be: h.265, Webkit2, Gstreamer 1.0 and RVU. Sony has known about the above since 2008 or before.
h.265 (HEVC) will be available in 2013 after it's final draft is published Jan 2013; a working draft is expected Feb 2012, h.265 will enable 4K blu-ray which can use a standard drive but requires a more powerful CPU and a larger video buffer memory. Most blu-ray drives can read at 2X a 4 layer disk which I think includes PS3 slim blu-ray drives so I'm guessing the PS3 can support 4K blu-ray with a firmware update.
h.265 will also support IPTV and using h.265 instead of h.264 will allow for 3-D and higher resolution video streams.
RVU requires DLNA and DTC-IP (in the PS3 since firmware 3.21) with version 1 using bitmapped menus and Version 2 requiring a webkit UI. Both Xbox and PS3 have been planning to support this since before 2009 with Xbox having a version 1 with U-Verse CATV more than a year ago. Prototypes have been beta tested but RVU is getting industry wide support this March 2012.
Webkit2 is a split process webkit that is more secure and potentially faster. Open source POSIX support (Linux and Unix) is not finished yet but projected to be available before the next Gnome cycle in March 2012 (QT and GTK toolkit versions).
Gstreamer 1.0 finished October 2011 and Howard Stringer stated in Nov 2011 that the Ecosystem is finished. Gstreamer is on Sony Google TV, Networked TVs and BLu-ray players and PS Suite's Mono uses Gstreamer and Webkit to support Moonlight (a Silverlight clone) used for Linux and Unix commercial IPTV applications. Sony has contracted the rights to use Micorsoft's Playready DRM on those platforms.
What you can take from the above is that since 2008 Sony has been planning for the above but had to wait for their completion. This is obvious if you have read the links and "white papers". This spring..............
What does it take to support the above; at the core Cairo, Gstreamer and Webkit with the support libraries required by each. This is why the Gnome desktop using just the Gnome Mobile Libraries is attractive. The current discussion is not about Sony plans, they are obvious, but about the software tools that will be used to support the above.
Predictions for 2012 from the experts:
Apple has a Game Console in the works?
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=61454&page=2 said:
On the hardware side in other NeoGAF threads IBM is creating what amounts to a SOC with CPU, GPU and Memory on one chip. This could reduce costs and if multiple Game Console companies buy it because of reduced cost then this could explain Apple getting into the Console business.
2014 according to Sony is building on 2012 & 2013 with OLED, and Samsung is showing transparent OLED now. 4K blu-ray and 4K OLED TV affordable with 20nm or smaller die process allowing consumer 4K video cameras. The battle for the living room will heat up as the TV becomes even more.
* Xbox RVU menus since the last dashboard update at the end of 2011 look like the Dashboard, are built using dashboard elements not a RVU version 1 bit mapped image of the DVR menu. Verizon DVR, for instance, is supporting both the Xbox and PS3...both will use RVU version 2. A wait till March for Samsung TVs to support RVU might be due to a wait for webkit2 to support the UI.
I offered him one more chance... sheesh.It's almost sad to watch
But I did learn that h.265 exists thanks to his post! I wonder how it stacks up against WebM.
RedAssedApe
Banned
What's coming first...cross-game chat or this new browser?
iirc, WebM is a watered-down equivalent to h.264 meant to skirt licensing and patent issues, while h.265 is a full-blown update that uses a great deal more CPU to reduce bitrate requirements and improve quality. It's still not a wavelet codec, sadly.
jeff_rigby
Banned
In depth investigation of and speculation on Sony plans based on:
1) Sony SNAP
2) Sony PS3 Webkit disclosure
3) Job listings for Sony
4) Open Source Software disclosures for Multiple Sony platforms
5) PS Suite
6) Sony applications and demos at trade shows
7) What the rest of the industry is planning
8) Sony Whitepapers
Sony does not disclose a roadmap and is Super Secret to the extreme, so much so that one employee took on the name Super_Secret and leaked information.
Utako, you should know that the industry is moving to using a WEBKIT UI and that supports my guess that the PS3 XMB will support a Webkit UI (RVU is using DLNA and webkit UI). One of the GTK toolkit features left in the PS3 webkit disclosure when Sony not-enabled and edited to change a GTKwebkit into a POSIXwebkit was webview which will be used to call a one instance browser window most likely supported from the XMB. With webRTC a webview window can support Google chat from the XMB and if the XMB is a browser desktop supporting a web UI, it can run almost instantly.
More information discovered by going through the Javascript engine disclosures:
1) JIT not enabled
2) The javascript engine has a MiniDOM
3) Sony has eliminated many features and reduced memory usage. This is not necessary for a IPTV app that is run as a stand alone application.
WebKitGTK+ 1.7.4 released! This is a development release leading toward 1.8 series.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony interviews months ago in Japan have Sony skipping the 32nm die process for the PS3 (Slim was @ 45nm, tape created by IBM and Sony manufactured the RSX and Cell in their Nagasaki plant.) and putting the PS4 design on the shelf waiting for ? .
Lots of possibles, GPUs to mature + die process to support a sub 200 watt Console? Sony skipping 32nm process in their Nagasaki plant and will purchase new equipment to manufacture a smaller die size skipping incremental sizes reducing costs? Again, we don't know the Sony roadmap. 4K support for consumer video cameras, processor and GPU for game console and TV SOC would all be more efficient at smaller die sizes. Sony stating 4K OLED will be mainstream in 2014 and their pulling out of the Samsung-Sony LCD panel plant support a wait for technology to progress with 2014 a roadmap target date, anyway my guess. Cell or scaled back design can be used at 45nm in Sony 4K TV and Sony 4K blu-ray player. Putting a next generation Cell and GPU in a SOC (Same package) @ 32 or 45nm for a next generation game console is not practical too much heat which impacts power supply, fan-noise size, a prototype for developers can have a larger form factor, larger heat sink and noiser fan.
Wii U is using 32nm and at that die size is limited as to GPU to fit a power envelope. 28nm is state of the art now, will be a standard in 2013 with 2014 to support 22nm. Rumors have IBM and Global Foundries producing next generation Xbox chips in limited quantities for developers @ 32nm. Final release die size may be 28nm if Xbox is targeted to release 6 months or more after the WiiU release.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Super_Secret? He's the dude who blamed the lack of cross game chat on the Harry Potter game or something isn't he? If you want people to take you seriously I wouldn't bring his name up.
Kinda surprised you didn't link to the post where he said that the Slim wasn't going to have OtherOS at all. He definitely was first to that news by a wide margin.
http://forums.n4g.com/fb.ashx?m=657076
And according to an insider on another forum, he wasn't too far off on the CGC. It probably wasn't EA, or at least not only EA that didn't want it because it wouldn't work with older games. There's plenty of evidence that Sony almost released CGC at least twice now, so I wouldn't take Yoshida's assertion that there's not enough memory left as gospel.
badcrumble
Member
H.264 already blows WebM away, so, uhhhhhh, I think it's safe to say that H.265 will too.
jeff_rigby
Banned
At least one older game I have (Poker on the Vegas Strip) has issues with an audio channel (not the main one). I'm guessing the 7.1 audio & wireless headset needed even more memory than available and the fidelity of a secondary game channel is suffering. I believe Yoshida but think a decision was made at Sony to support 7.1 ch audio at the expense of CGC and it is also impacting some older games. Is this the issue SS was talking about?
Re: My hope that the XMB is a browser desktop, If so and Gstreamer is used for all AV in the PS3 not just HTML5 <video> then=>
1) With webRTC a webview window can support Google chat from the XMB using a Gstreamer HTML5 <video> window and if the XMB is a browser desktop supporting a web UI, it can run almost instantly. In contrast a Skype Chat program contains proprietary Microsoft code that will not be compatible with the Gstreamer core and will probably need to run as a stand alone. Google chat loads almost instantly and can support advanced features in the browser while Skype will take 6-7 seconds to load and the PS3 will require a reboot after exit.
2) Video editing: Collabora is developing PiViTi Video editing using native language GTKtoolkit and Video editing in the Browser which is supported by W3C as a possible new HTML5 feature. Both native language version and Browser Video editing is based on Gstreamer. IF Playmemories Studio is using Gstreamer then it should load from the XMB nearly instantly and on exit the XMB will not need to reboot.
3) DLNA uses Gstreamer and multiple plugins support more codecs and containers. Easy upgrade to 4K h.265 codec written for Gstreamer and all AV in the PS3 will support the new codec.
4) Gstreamer player can be used for Home, IPTV, Chat, DLNA, DVD and Blu-ray playback, Augmented reality, TV tuner, on the Fly converting 1080P to 720P to serve video to the Vita, or any codec, resolution and container to one supported by the Vita and more.
When we get (if we get) a browser Desktop I think it will impact PS3 user perceived value more than a new browser. Expect a ton of new features only limited by imagination.
Webkit + Cairo + Gstreamer + Stripped down and modified GTK toolkit = New Sony PS3 Application side developer tools + always loaded => Browser desktop + Mono => PS Suite apps
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/openmax/resources.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMAX
http://www.google.com/search?source....org/assets/.../COLLADA_101-Full_Tutorial.ppt
Description of PS3
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/releases/gst-openmax/0.10.1.html
Ok, if Gstreamer is not in the PS3 now it will be easy to integrate it into the OpenMax API. No problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMAX
http://www.google.com/search?source....org/assets/.../COLLADA_101-Full_Tutorial.ppt
www.khronos.org/assets/.../COLLADA_101-Full_Tutorial.ppt said:
Description of PS3
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/releases/gst-openmax/0.10.1.html
Ok, if Gstreamer is not in the PS3 now it will be easy to integrate it into the OpenMax API. No problems.
http://www.collabora.com/projects/gstreamer-interview/ said:
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.khronos.org/assets/uploa..._ISO_SC24_Update/Khronos-SC24_Seoul-Nov11.pdf
Khronos PDF gives an idea where the industry is heading.
1.01 release of WebGL Spec Imminent (Probably this March like the 1.0 release March 2011)
100% robust stance on Security (I'd guess that webkit2 is required)
Multiple Khronos PDF files
Khronos PDF gives an idea where the industry is heading.
1.01 release of WebGL Spec Imminent (Probably this March like the 1.0 release March 2011)
100% robust stance on Security (I'd guess that webkit2 is required)
Multiple Khronos PDF files
Sony will announce it at E3 2012..
Ok, I laughed too much at this.
StoppedInTracks
Member
Haha, nicely done.
7.1 audio has been supported on PS3 since *launch*. CGC wasn't even on the menu at that time, as Sony was still struggling to get the memory footprint low enough for developers to reach parity with 360 titles.
Speculate more though, we're all enjoying it. Just don't do anything rash when the browser or XMB is never updated. Ever.
He doesn't get a lot of things.
Even if Sony does update the browser before PS4 hits, it will have nothing to do with the nonsense he posts on a regular basis. Cairo, GStreamer, and GTK have fuck all to do with PS3.
I don't doubt that those things *could* potentially end up on the PS3 in some form. What I do doubt, it that they'll have anything to do with what he thinks they will. Browser, 4K, etc.
The browser isn't getting an update. Sony would almost certainly want to pour their resources into other features first that can generate *revenue* for them, and they get jack all from the Browser.
In fact, the more likely scenario is that some of the available apps for PS3 might use some of this stuff as middleware, since Sony isn't a software company. It probably has application for the PS Suite as well, but that's probably where it ends. No browser update or XMB update is going to happen. Especially not the XMB though. Sony backed themselves into a corner 5 years ago when they wrote it, and a massive redesign would likely break a lot of existing games.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Most likely Spring 2012. Anyway, we are getting a major upgrade about that time. I expect a PS3 disclosure in March similar to the March 2011 PS3 webkit and Cairo disclosure but this time Gstreamer and updates to the already existing webkit disclosure.
theBishop said:
http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/webkit-11.02.03-ga52edd9/ said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27024165&postcount=269
See Sony job postings for PS3 Rich Internet Applications. Stand alone or supported from an always loaded browser XMB, they will still use Cairo, Gstreamer and a stripped down GTK toolkit.
jeff_rigby
Banned
"I'm guessing the 7.1 audio & wireless headset needed even more memory than available." Redirecting a stream that has a high bitrate (7.1 audio) requires more buffer memory for the SPU that is tasked with audio out, audio in and feeding the USB port. One SPU is task scheduled to do all the above and more. You need buffer memory to enable the SPU to efficiently perform tasks; the more you task the SPU the larger the buffers need to be.
Maybe you should be clear when you post then
You clearly said 7.1 ch audio, and didn't mention the headset. That said, most of your post reads like speculation, not fact. Audio out is disabled entirely when using the headset, so it's simply a redirect, which I can't imagine is as demanding as you suggest. I'm not even sure if secondary audio out works when you use the headset.
No, i mean this stuff will definitely not come to PS3. It's specific to the linux desktop stack. OK, WebKit could be relevant, but definitely not GStreamer.
jeff_rigby
Banned
It's possible that Gstreamer may not be used in the PS3, assuming it's not already in the PS3 with firmware 3.0.
Adding in that the Khronos OpenMax framework API is being used for AV with possibly a custom or BSD/MIT licensed player and a post above that mentioned that Gstreamer 1.0 provides changes to allow an easier use of Gstreamer/Openmax on Embedded (= PS3) might lead to some insights.
PS Suite uses Gstreamer and webkit native libraries to support IPTV and RIA. IF Sony decides to not use Gstreamer for HTML5 <video> on the PS3 then PS Suite will likely not be supported on the PS3. This might explain the on and off PS Suite on PS3 announcements.
Previously posted is a Khronos PDF from Nov 2011 outlining plans for HTML5 WebGL features and Augmented Reality both inside and outside a browser. It's mostly a slideshow with pictures so it's easy to follow. What I take from this and the PS3 HMD (head mounted display) and Samsung Glasses demoed at CES is that CE companies are gearing up for AR (September 2012 mentioned). Gstreamer talk of supporting EGL streams necessary for AR has already taken place.
From Sony's point of view, can the Open Source community support the new Khronos proposals in a timely manner? Features have been added to Gstreamer and Cairo to support webkit and the W3C specifications to Open Source duplicate Flash functionality to eliminate (Flash) plugins. Collabora is also working with others to use Gstreamer to support W3C RTC and Video editing in the browser. Will Gstreamer support EGL streams by the target date? Gstreamer is already 2 months behind in their own timetable to fully support Gstreamer 1.0 and the Linux/Unix webkit community will be 5-6 months behind Google in supporting webkit2 and advanced HTML5.
Further, page 25 of the Khronos PDF states:
WebGL 1.0 standard was released just before the PS3 webkit disclosure March 2011, I expect by this March webGL 1.01 to be released and Sony to have another disclosure March 2012.
"100% robust stance on Security" would require webkit2 and the GTK webkit2 API is supposed to be done before the next Gnome cycle March 28.
theBishop; "It's (Gstreamer) specific to the linux desktop stack."
The OpenMax IL APIs describe/use the same terms (source and Sink Pads with good, bad and ugly plugins) with essentially the same streaming pipeline and plugin functionality that Gstreamer uses.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GStreamer said:
Before the Oct 2010 IPTV revolution, the PS3 only supported a DLNA, XMB clip, home movie player as well as DVD and Blu-ray.
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458884
Khronos PDF gives an idea where the industry is heading. Augmented Reality both inside and outside the browser. http://www.khronos.org/assets/uploa..._ISO_SC24_Update/Khronos-SC24_Seoul-Nov11.pdf
Samsung and Sony demoing HMD and transparent OLED combined with LCD. OLED is now economically practical.
Mobile is going to be a big user/supporter of AR.
Sony buys out Ericsson of Sony-Ericsson phones
Sony ships 2 Android tablets
Sony develops PS Suite
Sony buys the Toshiba Nagasaki Fab plant and declares it's going to be the #1 supplier of CMOS image sensors.
Sony and two other Japanese companies form a partnership to produce SMALL OLED screens.
Sony pulls out of the Samsung-Sony large LCD panel production partnership.
Is there a pattern?
September 2012 is a target date to implement AR commercially. Lots of software needed to integrate sensors, cameras and video streams. Did Sony start on this in 2009? Hirai stated the complete PS3 OS rewrite with Firmware 3.0 (2009) was to support Internet video (IPTV) and video that once digitized can be manipulated.
Home video/still Cameras that include LIVE WiFi besides being used to support remote chat for applications like Google Chat or Skype may also be used to support AR in the home; Sony is now shipping such a camera. Cheap tablets are coming and they can be used to support AR in the home with a PS3 or PS4 also.
There is talk on NeoGAF about sensor equipped accessories and Toys that support AR for children in the home....extensions to the Eyepet model.
Khronos PDF gives an idea where the industry is heading. Augmented Reality both inside and outside the browser. http://www.khronos.org/assets/uploa..._ISO_SC24_Update/Khronos-SC24_Seoul-Nov11.pdf
Samsung and Sony demoing HMD and transparent OLED combined with LCD. OLED is now economically practical.
Mobile is going to be a big user/supporter of AR.
Sony buys out Ericsson of Sony-Ericsson phones
Sony ships 2 Android tablets
Sony develops PS Suite
Sony buys the Toshiba Nagasaki Fab plant and declares it's going to be the #1 supplier of CMOS image sensors.
Sony and two other Japanese companies form a partnership to produce SMALL OLED screens.
Sony pulls out of the Samsung-Sony large LCD panel production partnership.
Is there a pattern?
September 2012 is a target date to implement AR commercially. Lots of software needed to integrate sensors, cameras and video streams. Did Sony start on this in 2009? Hirai stated the complete PS3 OS rewrite with Firmware 3.0 (2009) was to support Internet video (IPTV) and video that once digitized can be manipulated.
Home video/still Cameras that include LIVE WiFi besides being used to support remote chat for applications like Google Chat or Skype may also be used to support AR in the home; Sony is now shipping such a camera. Cheap tablets are coming and they can be used to support AR in the home with a PS3 or PS4 also.
There is talk on NeoGAF about sensor equipped accessories and Toys that support AR for children in the home....extensions to the Eyepet model.
NoirVisage
Banned
O__o
i've been wanting to post that for a long time.
i've been wanting to post that for a long time.