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PS4 has extra low power processor and 256MB DDR3 RAM

T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
So, basically, Sony managed to include a more powerful processor, better RAM, and another processor with 256MB of RAM, for less than the cost of a single, weaker processor with worse RAM on MS's end?

What in sweet hell went wrong, MS?
 
N

n0n44m

Member
the "extra" memory is just there because the ARM chip is not able to access the main system memory, and it needs some memory obviously

I don't know of any product where memory access is shared between a CPU/APU and an ARM chip :p
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
godelsmetric said:
So, basically, Sony managed to include a more powerful processor, better RAM, and another processor with 256MB of RAM, for less than the cost of a single, weaker processor with worse RAM on MS's end?

What in sweet hell went wrong, MS?
Click to expand...

Look, dude. You need to wait one more week and then all will be revealed. All I can say is four letters? DGPU.
 
S

sangreal

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Well there was a debate as to whether there would be a separate processor or if it was all on the main processor. It remains to be seen what is in the secondary processor but it makes sense to have a video encoder and audio encoder as neither has a cost of more than $1 each and a dual ARM A7 will be a few dollars.
Click to expand...

Debate? They said flat out in the February reveal that their was a separate processor for background functions
 
K

kick51

Banned
like OMG I can't believe it's actually weaker than the PS3! It's like a PC from the year 2000! Holy crap, I'm gonna run to all social media and gaming forums to make 5000 posts about it for attention. Xbox rulez, PS4 drulez nyehhhh hue hue
 
C

c0de

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Seemed like the news was too important to be buried in the iFixit thread.

On mobile so I can't link right now, but it's a 2Gb Samsung chip attached to the low power secondary processor.

My guess is that it is used for caching the 15min video recording.
Click to expand...

Probably arm-chip for low-power-mode and also handling security functions. Nothing what affects gaming.
 
R

Raist

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
Seemed like the news was too important to be buried in the iFixit thread.

On mobile so I can't link right now, but it's a 2Gb Samsung chip attached to the low power secondary processor.

My guess is that it is used for caching the 15min video recording.
Click to expand...

probably not just that. I bet it's handling the streaming stuff too.
 
Snake29

Snake29

RSI Employee of the Year
This is the secondary processor

sony-ps4-secondary-processor.png
 
Dr. Kitty Muffins

Dr. Kitty Muffins

Member
I'd definitely like here more about this from Sony themselves. You would think they would have mentioned this day 1 but maybe they feared it would confuse internet fanboys and really make the online "debates" screwed up messes.
 
dr_rus

dr_rus

Member
Razgreez said:
Been stated repeatedly that it's there for low/standby power functionality
Click to expand...
Yeah but it doesn't mean that you can't use it while in high load / gaming mode. It's probably reserved by the OS but I can see some 1st party exclusives taking advantage of this in some way down the line.
 
S

satam55

Banned
Guymelef said:
jeff_rigby is coming.
Click to expand...

satam55 said:
Jeff_Rigby's knowledge is needed in this thread.
Click to expand...







If anyone is interested, this what Jeff_Rigby posted 30 minutes ago on the semiaccurate.com forums:
Connected to the Sony Second custom chip as Southbridge

- Samsung K4B2G1646E-BCK0 2Gb DDR3 SDRAM = 256 MB DDR3 memory
- Macronix MX25L25635FMI 256Mb Serial Flash Memory = 32MB SECURE Serial Flash Memory

@ boom, this exceeds what's needed for background downloading & Playready DRM, DLNA client/server and IPTV player. Speculation is that the excess can be used for the 15 minute loop @ 720P (h.264 compressed) and my view that it can also be used for a RVU video loop and cache for DVR to reduce the on time for the Hard Disk.

Then PS4 software credits include Mono, Mono VM, Lua, Cairo, Webkit, Microsoft IP which includes Playready DRM and more.......

Playstation mobile requires Mono and Java, PS Home requires Lua, Webkit and Cairo

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=199893#post199893
Click to expand...
ohhh.png
 
S

satam55

Banned
Dr. Kitty Muffins said:
I'd definitely like here more about this from Sony themselves. You would think they would have mentioned this day 1 but maybe they feared it would confuse internet fanboys and really make the online "debates" screwed up messes.
Click to expand...

They did mention it on Day 1 at the the PS4 reveal event on February 20th.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
godelsmetric said:
So, basically, Sony managed to include a more powerful processor, better RAM, and another processor with 256MB of RAM, for less than the cost of a single, weaker processor with worse RAM on MS's end?

What in sweet hell went wrong, MS?
Click to expand...

Wait for the secret sauce bro. DGPU and SHAPE.

It's Kinect
 
J

Jburton

Banned
c0de said:
Probably arm-chip for low-power-mode and also handling security functions. Nothing what affects gaming.
Click to expand...

Who said it was?

Handling upload of recorded footage etc is probably a function also, was alluded to earlier in the year alongside the functions you have stated.
 
Begaria

Begaria

Member
Y2Kev said:
Look, dude. You need to wait one more week and then all will be revealed. All I can say is four letters? DGPU.
Click to expand...

You needed more misspelled words in there and should've ended it with "KEEP DIGGING".

7.5/Polygon or if you wish, Eight/misterX
 
B

Bundy

Banned
godelsmetric said:
So, basically, Sony managed to include a more powerful processor, better RAM, and another processor with 256MB of RAM, for less than the cost of a single, weaker processor with worse RAM on MS's end?
What in sweet hell went wrong, MS?
Click to expand...

Funny, isn't it ^_^
 
S

Skeff

Member
c0de said:
Probably arm-chip for low-power-mode and also handling security functions. Nothing what affects gaming.
Click to expand...

It probably actually does affect Gaming indirectly, The resources will not be used for gaming, however if the DDR3 is in fact used to cache the recorded footage as some are suggesting, then it would save 256mb GDDR5 which could be used for gaming, therefore indirectly providing more system resources for gaming.
 
C

crazygambit

Member
Brad Grenz said:
Yeah, it must. The complications of having to pass control of the system back and forth between the background processor's OS and the main OS are probably why we don't have game suspension at launch.



Well, there's a few ways to think about it. It's enough that they can buffer downloads and only spin up the drive occasionally to burst write the data, keeping noise and power use as low as possible. And they have to think about what the price and availability of this kind and capacity of RAM will be for the life of the product. With both the PS1 and PS2 they discontinued manufacturing when it got to the point that the parts they needed were so obsolete the prices they'd have to pay to get them made became prohibitive. a 64MB DDR3 chip might have been adequate for their needs today, and cheap, too, but what happens in 5 years when no one mass produces DDR3 in that density anymore?
Click to expand...

You upgrade it? It's not like there's no precedent. The latter revisions of the PSP had 64MB of RAM vs 32MB of the original version.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
zomgbbqftw said:
Wait for the secret sauce bro. DGPU and SHAPE.

It's Kinect
Click to expand...
Is the Kinect hardware actually really that complicated? It's only a 1080p camera and an IR thingy. Doesn't really seem as though it would cost the $100+ needed to cover the cost deficit.
Moral Panic said:
Wait, what? What changed?!
Click to expand...
I mean the whole APU.

Brad Grenz said:
Well, there's a few ways to think about it. It's enough that they can buffer downloads and only spin up the drive occasionally to burst write the data, keeping noise and power use as low as possible. And they have to think about what the price and availability of this kind and capacity of RAM will be for the life of the product. With both the PS1 and PS2 they discontinued manufacturing when it got to the point that the parts they needed were so obsolete the prices they'd have to pay to get them made became prohibitive. a 64MB DDR3 chip might have been adequate for their needs today, and cheap, too, but what happens in 5 years when no one mass produces DDR3 in that density anymore?
Click to expand...

Could they not just use either a higher density or DDR4?
 
C

c0de

Member
Skeff said:
It probably actually does affect Gaming indirectly, The resources will not be used for gaming, however if the DDR3 is in fact used to cache the recorded footage as some are suggesting, then it would save 256mb GDDR5 which could be used for gaming, therefore indirectly providing more system resources for gaming.
Click to expand...

Perhaps also this, we don't know by now. Still it's unclear how much ressources are given to devs (cpu-cores, amount of ram) but I found this:

"There was also talk of a new processing module in the PS4 hardware designed to handle tasks like background downloading. Our sources suggest a low-power ARM core designed to handle "standby" tasks along these lines, while the console also saves the current gameplay state when the system is closed down, meaning instant access to the last game you played when you power up again. OS tasks and resource allocation remain unknown (512MB or thereabouts was discussed with developers) but we now have some idea of what this system can do: Sony talks about running a web browser "and other applications" during gameplay."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-spec-analysis-playstation-4
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
godelsmetric said:
Is the Kinect hardware actually really that complicated? It's only a 1080p camera and an IR thingy. Doesn't really seem as though it would cost the $100+ needed to cover the cost deficit.
Click to expand...

They have a lot of custom silicon in there, in addition they also have a time of flight camera, even low end versions aren't exactly cheap.

Plus Sony are selling with a negative margin and Microsoft are likely selling with a zero margin on hardware so the ecosystem is profitable out of the gate (investor pressure being what it is for Xbox).

I would say that the final cost for both of these systems is around the same. Sadly I wasn't able to release the Bone costing analysis to GAF after a policy change. The PS4 figures I revealed on GAF were too accurate and I got a bollocking as it has hampered sales of our report on the effect of new generation hardware on Sony's margins and investment worthiness.
 
S

serversurfer

Member
Brad Grenz said:
The background processor is obviously for what we've been told it's for since the beginning, managing network and I/O functions while the system is in its low power stand-by state.
Click to expand...
Is there anything preventing it from also performing those functions while in full-power mode? That way games and other apps don't need to account for that stuff.

May not be much, but every little bit helps.
 
S

Steel

Banned
Think the important thing here is that a lot of the background OS functions are being taken care of with dedicated silicon, what are the chances that they'll give some of the 2 gb reserved for OS back to developers at some point?
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Someone on B3D pointed out the RAM package when the teardown photos were released.

I suppose it makes sense for low power operation rather than firing up the entirety of the GDDR5 for standby tasks.

Maybe will help hand more memory over to GameOS over time too.
 
M

Mokubba

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
They have a lot of custom silicon in there, in addition they also have a time of flight camera, even low end versions aren't exactly cheap.

Plus Sony are selling with a negative margin and Microsoft are likely selling with a zero margin on hardware so the ecosystem is profitable out of the gate (investor pressure being what it is for Xbox).

I would say that the final cost for both of these systems is around the same. Sadly I wasn't able to release the Bone costing analysis to GAF after a policy change. The PS4 figures I revealed on GAF were too accurate and I got a bollocking as it has hampered sales of our report on the effect of new generation hardware on Sony's margins and investment worthiness.
Click to expand...

Damn, Serious business.

So the price of the systems are around the same with or without Kinect included?
 
N

nib95

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
They have a lot of custom silicon in there, in addition they also have a time of flight camera, even low end versions aren't exactly cheap.

Plus Sony are selling with a negative margin and Microsoft are likely selling with a zero margin on hardware so the ecosystem is profitable out of the gate (investor pressure being what it is for Xbox).

I would say that the final cost for both of these systems is around the same. Sadly I wasn't able to release the Bone costing analysis to GAF after a policy change. The PS4 figures I revealed on GAF were too accurate and I got a bollocking as it has hampered sales of our report on the effect of new generation hardware on Sony's margins and investment worthiness.
Click to expand...

Damn lol. Hope the bollocking was not too severe...
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
zomgbbqftw said:
They have a lot of custom silicon in there, in addition they also have a time of flight camera, even low end versions aren't exactly cheap.

Plus Sony are selling with a negative margin and Microsoft are likely selling with a zero margin on hardware so the ecosystem is profitable out of the gate (investor pressure being what it is for Xbox).

I would say that the final cost for both of these systems is around the same. Sadly I wasn't able to release the Bone costing analysis to GAF after a policy change. The PS4 figures I revealed on GAF were too accurate and I got a bollocking as it has hampered sales of our report on the effect of new generation hardware on Sony's margins and investment worthiness.
Click to expand...

I don't see how both systems can be similar in cost. Kinect looks expensive and the APU is massive, which will be disproportionately more expensive. The GDDR5 on the PS4 side is expensive but enough to cover that gap?
 
B

BrokenIcarus

Member
So this thing handles background downloads, video capture and streaming right?
Does the Xbone have an equivalent? Does anyone know?
 
E

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
would have been really cool if they could stick a CELL and some RDRAM in there for proper b/c, but that probably wouldn't have been enough anyway...
 
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