Must be some weird definition there. Then again the mass market doesnt buy games on disc either.
Then why even include streaming video services. Its a game machine after all.
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PS4 Pro Won't Support 4k BluRay
- Thread starter blastprocessor
- Start date
Must be some weird definition there. Then again the mass market doesnt buy games on disc either.
Then why even include streaming video services. Its a game machine after all.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
How many games are these people likely to be buying though? If they are buying just for a cheap UHD Blu Ray player, then maybe Sony is willing to let this happen as they won't make any money off UHD discs.
It's a good idea by Microsoft who probably are just using XBox to keep their windows based platform relevant in the living room. But Sony are probably more about selling games. Both valid approaches, they'll probably both achieve their own goals too.
MisterXDTV
Member
Video services are apps (SOFTWARE), they don't impact hardware costs
What if I have a 4K TV and don't want to spend $1500?
Let's say I have a budget of..... $399! DING DING DING
And by the way that $1500 PC DOESN'T play UHD Blu-rays as well! How can they sell one?
If you own a 1500 dollar tv and you don't own a ps4, it's a good purchase. If you already own a ps4, I'd save the money or buy something else. I play games at 4k regularly and honestly, from 6 feet away from my tv, the difference is there but it's minimal. My OG ps4 still looks phenomenal.
Boss Man
Member
It looks like if I want a device that plays video games and takes advantage of my new TV, Sony isn't offering a solution. That's what's disappointing. I'm sure that up-scaling is better than no up-scaling, but it's not really intriguing enough to outweigh the ability to view true 4K content with a UHD drive which is what's available in a cheaper machine that already exists.
In 2016 media display terms, it's like Sony put on a suit with tennis shoes. Go the extra 2 feet and make something that 4K TV owners will definitely want to upgrade to. A UHD drive would not have been a significant cost increase.
If you're still on a 1080p (or lower) display, then yeah sure who gives a damn. The PS4 Pro is not missing anything for you and apparently you'll get some better performance out of PS4 games going forward. Cool, I guess that's worth it. But the selling point sure seems to be that it's worth the upgrade because of 4K, despite not really offering anything substantial for 4K TV owners.
In 2016 media display terms, it's like Sony put on a suit with tennis shoes. Go the extra 2 feet and make something that 4K TV owners will definitely want to upgrade to. A UHD drive would not have been a significant cost increase.
If you're still on a 1080p (or lower) display, then yeah sure who gives a damn. The PS4 Pro is not missing anything for you and apparently you'll get some better performance out of PS4 games going forward. Cool, I guess that's worth it. But the selling point sure seems to be that it's worth the upgrade because of 4K, despite not really offering anything substantial for 4K TV owners.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
In 2015 the US market for DVD's and Blu-rays generated $6.1 billion, down 12% YoY, compared to an 18% uptick in digital streaming revenue.
In 2015 the US video game industry generated $23.5 billion in revenue, up from $22.4 billion the previous year. Software content representing $16.5 billion of that, again up 7% from 2014.
It doesn't take a market analyst to see where this is heading, particular as the market trends have been moving consistently in the same direction for several years now.
RichiRamjag
Member
Or if you just don't really care about UHD playback. I'd be happy to get some games in 4K or upscaled. Hell, I'm happy to have 1080 or 1440 with better effects. I didn't buy my PS4 to play movies and I planned on getting my son a PS4 going forward. Now I'll just buy myself a pro and enjoy what benefits there are. I guess we'll have to just wait and see if this even hurts them.
What planet do you live on?
Boss Man
Member
Well that's another point, if you're buying a new PS4 then the Pro seems like a good choice. I'm just disappointed as someone who owns a PS4 currently as well as a 4K TV. I might begrudgingly get one at some point anyway (since FFXIV won't seem to make its way to Xbox), but they really skimped with the drive and I'm going to complain. For the cost of a UHD drive I wouldn't have to be considering an Xbox.
What if I have a 4K TV and don't want to spend $1500?
Let's say I have a budget of..... $399! DING DING DING
And by the way that $1500 PC DOESN'T play UHD Blu-rays as well! How can they sell one?
Then you don't get to game at 4k. If you want to the cost is around $1300. Then to play uhd you buy the oppo player because Sony decided not to include it in the Pro.
Not selling as much doesn't make me consider it not mass market though. Its not a format that's only sold in a limited number of outlets with a pretty limited about of content. Its not like vinyl, sacd, or LD even at its height. Hell I still consider CD and DVD mass market too, even though they sell less than they did at their peaks.
And certainly it makes sense. Even for me a heavy BD buyer streaming has meant that I don't need to own as much content as I have in the past. No longer do I buy content that I have a mostly casual interest in, as I did pre-streaming.
Though you you need hardware to support the streaming decoding and the licensing of codecs etc.
Lionel Richie
Member
Because I don't care about how it sells. I hope it does some good numbers, I never hope for anything gaming related to bomb because I love videogames. But I don't actively care if it sells well or outsell the Xbox or anything like that.
I was talking about people that reacted negatively to it here or in other gaming communities, which will continue to be a thing even if this sells really well.
doesnt excuse saying things that are just plain wrong...
there is a difference however in being disappointed that it doesnt have a UHD drive (I am)...and trying to say that Sony has made some grave mistake. I was surprised when it was announced without it, and I wish it was there...but its very easy to understand why its not.
paperspace
Member
It's also very easy to understand why it should be there.
Lionel Richie
Member
I understand what you mean and I agree it makes sense on a business side. But it doesn't mean people shouldn't feel disappointed, it's easy to see why someone would feel less than happy because of it. My problem is with people continuingly trying to downplay it as something irrelevant when here at least it's clearly not.
ReBurn
Gold Member
The more you defend it the more absurd your arguments become. You're literally saying that the people who are paying a premium for a machine marketed as "pro" are literally ok with "just good enough." If people are ok with just good enough they won't be buying this machine at all. They'll stick with the cheaper model.
Crimson_Gold
Member
Different forms of entertainment come with different expectations and desires. Not that hard to understand.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yes they do unless you trying to be funny or talking about PC\mobile.
DD is 20 to 25% of sales and in certain countries even less if we talking about consoles.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Digital sales more than physical? Since when?
Marty Chinn
Member
Your comparison doesn't make sense. You specifically list DVDs and Blu rays but then compare it to all video games. That software figure could be 99% mobile digital sales 0.9% digital PS4 sales and 0.1% physical sales. Without a breakdown and comparison between last year, you saying the total amount of sales across all video games no matter what platform and what distribution doesn't really mean anything. I'm not saying the OP was correct either; I'm just pointing out that you didn't post anything that disputed it.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
And many people have acknowledged that but the undeniable fact that remains regardless of both arguments is, Sony decided not to support it because it's current support is very thin and largely unavailable.
To an extent, yes...but clearly Sony's strategy in regards to UHD discs is drastically different than when it came to bluray...
Sony was willing to drastically undercut their standalone players (selling for $900+ at the time) by releasing a more capable player (PS3) at an incredible loss just do get a bluray player in living rooms...
They are not willing to do that this time around, and they obviously have very compelling reasons to do so...their first stand alone UHD player will.hit shelves sometime next spring, and is aimed at the extreme enthusiast market (think REALLY expensive)...
Sony doesn't see UHD discs as a mainstream market..or at least it won't be in the near future...they are going to target the videophile with their player...the person who wants the absolute best picture quality, not the person searching for the cheapest entry into the game...
farmerboy
Member
BlitzerRadic
Member
No way in hell Sony is going to spend $15 (if reports are true) per unit on hardware that only a fraction of the user base is going to use.
They took out the optical port on the slim. Think about that.
It's like people here forgot about what happened with PS3.
They took out the optical port on the slim. Think about that.
It's like people here forgot about what happened with PS3.
Marty Chinn
Member
They left it in the Pro though...
Defend what? In the post you quoted I was talking about the home video market as a whole. I wasn't even referring to the Pro's situation.
Well, if your friend working the shop floor at Best Buy said it, then surely it must be true and cause for concern.
BlitzerRadic
Member
Pro is $100 more than slim. Optical is in OG PS4 which launched at $399, pro is $399.
Marty Chinn
Member
But your argument was they took it out to save money because not enough people utilized it. Why wouldn't they take it out on the Pro to save money since the number of people who need it are a small fraction?
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Maybe their research showed that the people likely to go for the pro require such functionality for a gaming related benefit (headphones for example).
I bet PS4 Pro will sell more than a 4K PC this holiday even if it us psuedo 4K.
The cost for keeping the port was justifiable (to Sony) for a higher priced SKU, but not for a lower one.
Caayn
Member
If the PS4p slim is anything like previous PS slim versions then it's more likely that it'll have less features than the original.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Remove the disc drive completely. I'd love a digital download / streaming only version.
freefornow
Member
So would I, but i would need to emigrate.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
It makes perfect sense, and you have no rebuttal because the figures speak for themselves.
Physical media sales are shrinking at a rate that if it continues at its current YoY rate will see its revenue value halved in size over the next 5 years. Meanwhile digital services of all kinds are growing strongly.
This thread is about the debate on UHD Blu-ray inclusion in a games console, so it makes sense to see how relatively important that feature is for driving future profit projections.
To which the numbers say its low value now and very likely to be of diminishing importance in the years ahead. There is no ambiguity about this, particularly if you bear in mind the miniscule size of the UHD media market compared to legacy formats like DVD.
I'm familiar with the pro-physical media arguments, and I'm not unsympathetic because I do like the format(s), but honestly, the writing is on the wall.
Try and find some recent (post 2014) positive figures for Blu Ray software sales, there aren't any. The evidence indicates that it peaked around 2013 and since that year it has joined DVD on the backslide. That considered, why would anyone believe that UHD Blu-Ray is going to do any better, being gated as it is by the available of matching UHD TV's.
Adam Tyner
Member
According to Home Media Magazine and Digital Entertainment Group:
For Q2, Blu-ray was up 35.9% in the U.S. over the corresponding quarter last year. It's been positive year over year for Q3 so far. Q1 was down, though (-10.9%), and because that's a significant quarter, the year overall is still up but just around 10% YoY. The big test will be Q4 since that's where so much of the money is. (Q4 is typically close to Q2 and Q3 combined.)
2015 as a whole was down 4.6%. The year ended strong, with Q4 up 11.2% YoY, although the three other quarters were down.
2014 was down 7.9% compared to 2013. As you said, 2013 was a good year, up 4.9% over 2012.
While Blu-ray has yo-yo-ed up and down, DVD been consistently down the entire time. People are fleeing DVD towards streaming/VoD/digital downloads to a greater extent than the Blu-ray audience.
Omnistalgic
Member
And?
My point is, there's a bunch of enthusiast interested in their games being better on PS4, and looking at the price as very attractive. Not all enthusiasts, on GAF, on forums, on Reddit, or who don't post on forums at all, is going to be negative about the drive. I'm an enthusiast and I don't care at all, haven't bought a disc for almost anything (music/movies) in like 7 years. There is no need to paint such a large brush with how consumer will feel about Pro, regardless of where you stand.
This defense force post is just ridiculous. None of the insiders are saying "Don't be upset about no Ultra BR" they are just stating forums/internet might be blowing it out of proportion because a lot of people aren't buying disc PERIOD anymore, and for the people saying it's "bad business" here's the reasons it's really not.
-This can personally, be disappointing for you and it's valid
-This can be a reason you don't pick up pro and it's valid
-This can be a reason X1s is more attractive and it's valid
-Etc...
The "defense force" is only offering rebuttals to the armchair business analyst we have here on GAF. Everyone has the right to be upset about the standard BR drive being included in Pro and not Ultra. It's absolutely disappointing that a place like GAF, who has so many good posters and info circulating, it's in this deep of a circle-jerk. Like its OK for people to be upset about the Pro lack of high-end drive, and it's OK to not care, why the fook is everyone still arguing about this?
Or just because pro is bigger it is easier and cheaper to include the port.
It is obviously a financial desicion, the cost of the drive, licences, and maybe, the necessary resources to adapt firmware/OS were high enough to exclude the drive. It is a pitty for a few interestedon UHD? Sure. It is a bad desicion? Probably not. Sales will dictate that. They follow PS4 path, gaming machine , else is not relevant, still lagging compared to PS3 too in that department.
Imo this will be anon issue in two months, until then, a few will keep complaing though as this is a huge problem.
Nah, they will release ps5 in 2019/20 and include UHD if it is the standard by then.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
This.
If I was in the market I'd shell out the extra $100 for the Pro model. The problem is I already own a PS4 that works and looks great.
I might get one down the road when it gets cheaper, but as an existing PS4 player it doesn't sell the get rid of your current model to get the new model to me.
Maybe the UHD drive would be another check box to push me over the edge.
shouamabane
Member
Some folks seem especially invested. The issue seems to have struck a cord with certain folks.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
$599 though.
Cheapest doesn't necessarily mean cheap.
Seems a bit revisionist to say nobody cared about Bluray. I'll pretend i don't remember those pictures of the 12-pk of MGS Xbox 360 memes all over.
Honestly, UHD disc selection is abysmal right now and I have absolutely no desire to start upgrading my collection of films from BRD to UHD seeing as I just spent years doing that shit with DVD to BRD. I would really only be likely to buy a few UHD discs of films that I really love and that's it... so, IMO, the exclusion of a UHD player from the PS4 Pro is NBD at all (for me).
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
But from Sony's perspective, they probably don't care if you buy a pro or not if you already own a PS4 as long as you still buy PS4 games. For the next year at least, PS4 will be the best place to play most console games regardless of model. If you were thinking that PS4 games are starting to look dated then maybe this product would float your boat and help stop you looking at building a PC.
By including a UHD drive it may well have caused you to upgrade, but would you have bought any more games? They may even feel that the kind of people that want a UHD Blu Ray player that much would probably spend less time and money on games as they are too busy watching movies and therefore aren't worth worrying about.
Ultimately though, you are right to back up your feelings by voting with your wallet.
Omnistalgic
Member
$499 but it still was the cheapest & MGS is a game so I'm not sure how that relates
