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[Mandelbo]

Jump while changing direction. It's just like Mario 64 in that regard

Ah ok. I'm really liking the exploration so far as well as the emphasis on stealth rather than combat, but I've gotta be honest, the controls haven't immediately clicked with me. It feels like Slugcat often doesn't do exactly what I want it to do, and it gets caught on edges and poles that I don't want it to grab fairly frequently. Also it seems like Slugcat always goes into a crouch when it leaves a horizontal pipe, which is fairly annoying unless I'm doing something wrong.

 

[dinoroar]

I keep refreshing this thread because all I wanna do is talk about/learn about this game this morning. Managed to play about half an hour last night, got to the first hibernation spot, explored further and died twice at the jaws of lizards. Can't wait to get home and play more.

 

[ymgve]

Does it matter? Is it important that the physics rate isn't a multiple of the refresh rate?

Depending on implementation, it might mean that when a game runs at 60fps, the physics will seem stuttery as it alternates between updating every 1 and every 2 frames.

Of course, it might not matter, I'm still waiting for the game to unlock on GOG, just strikes me as an odd choice.

 

[Crab Milk Mickey]

I'm surprised the difficulty and control issues were not picked up during play testing.

I'm assuming this was play tested by people other than the developers.

Although my playtime with Rain World is comparatively low, at least the press' control-related woes feel blown out of proportion so far. Some of them mistakenly confuse nuanced for "unresponsive."

 

[Granjinha]

Huh, went to a different second region than most streams seem to go

Spoiler

Most streamers seem to head up to Industrial, I headed down and found the entrance to Drainage System

dont

I think the point of the checkpoints/rank system isn't so much to act as a means of gating the player (though they do), but to really put the focus on acquiring knowledge, making smart decisions, and keeping the intensity high because every "run" counts. I'm still pretty early, but already I've gotten into a rhythm of making a note of hunting grounds where bats tend to hang out, and deciding right away whether or not that "day" will for forward progress, or used to get a sense of direction and gather enough food to go back and rest before trying again. These aren't just checkpoints, they're a sort of temporary home you squat in while venturing out a little more every run before finally leaving it behind. Sometimes you just have to bank your progress and return to your hole instead of pushing blindly with <25% of the day left, risking everything. Once you know where you're going, the subsequent runs are much faster.

Also, I don't think the rain is necessarily pushing you forward, it's just pushing you to move quickly, whatever you decide to do..

____

That feel when asshole predators are blocking your only path forward and you have to make risky moves x_x

yeah i understand the logic behind them and i think they work well during the 1/3, but once the game gets harder and more creatures get thrown into the equation i think the rank system isn't needed honestly, it just adds more difficulty

 

[woopWOOP]

Damn, I figured this game would have a hard time running on a system made out of ancient computer parts, but Steam won't even allow it to install D:

Guess I'll have to try it out on my fancier work laptop instead...

 

[Mandelbo]

I've just got past my first gated off area, am now in the

Spoiler

Drainage System

. The whole losing your rank system doesn't really seem too bad to be honest - I thought you went all the way back down to the starting rank, but you just lose one rank instead. So far, I haven't really had any trouble overstocking on food, so it's not that hard to get ranks back either.

 

[Turin Turambar]

I'm surprised the difficulty and control issues were not picked up during play testing.

I'm assuming this was play tested by people other than the developers.

In game development like this, when the team is just one or two people, they usually have a strong vision of what the game is, they are the authors. When games are created in that kind of isolation, and for several years, it's easy to lose perspective, so even if the game is later playtested by more people, they have a bias towards their 'true design'. Things like controls and what should be the difficulty of the game are pretty subjective.

Things like them needing the publisher's playtesting to put the helper hologram says a lot.

 

[dinoroar]

I've just got past my first gated off area, am now in the

Spoiler

Drainage System

. The whole losing your rank system doesn't really seem too bad to be honest - I thought you went all the way back down to the starting rank, but you just lose one rank instead. So far, I haven't really had any trouble overstocking on food, so it's not that hard to get ranks back either.

I don't know why I never got round to trying this, but after you lose rank, can I use the same hibernation spot that I respawn in to hibernate back up? Or are there multiple spots I can hibernate in for each area?

 

[Net_Wrecker]

yeah i understand the logic behind them and i think they work well during the 1/3, but once the game gets harder and more creatures get thrown into the equation i think the rank system isn't needed honestly, it just adds more difficulty

Yeah that was just me trying to justify the structure thematically, but I can see it becoming an issue later on, and especially if there aren't fruit/bug spawns close enough to quickly get your rank back to where you need it to be. I'm already encountering 4 different aggressive species which sometimes block a lot of my escape routes, and I haven't even made that much progress yet. Didn't occur to me that higher level gates could become a grind as you're dying repeatedly. I'm fine with the hibernation checkpoints, I do think they work as they should and are spaced properly, but I wonder how necessary the rank system is. I never even considered its impact on the game until a few days ago tbh.

________


In other news, I found some friendly AI, then a lizard came barging in and well... things happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLS29loP9Q

 

[JamesPrimate]

hello friends! I am james, one of the developers of this strange game Rain World

more_badass politely asked if I'd be interested in hanging out in the OT thread here today to chat / answer questions, and because he has been our champion on the GAF for years, of course id be happy to

i think rather than lurk through previous pages, ill just take comments and questions directed at or around me henceforth.

ive been up all night with release stuff, so dont mind if responses are a little loopy!

 

[Crispy75]

There's almost certainly spoilers in there, but

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Rain World\Assets\Futile\Resources\Illustrations

and

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Rain World\Assets\Futile\Resources\Decals

are goldmines for avatars, should one wih to RWise themselves

 

[danowat]

Hi James, I've been following the game for a little while, love the art style and procedural animation, but I, like many, have been put off by the reviews mentioning just how hard and unforgiving the game is.

I get that this was an artistic vision, but are there are plans to make it more accesable to players who want a less difficult experience? (yeah, GAF will just tell me to GET GUD!)

Did this difficulty issue arise during playtesting much?, I am tempted to get the game, but I've been burnt by these things before, I get that a lot of people love the challenge and relish difficulty, so maybe the game just isn't for people like me!.

 

[JamesPrimate]

ah so THATS where people are getting that placeholder "dead slugcat" art from the as-of-yet-not-officially-announced multiplayer, lol

 

[Danielsan]

Funnily enough I'm actually more interested in the game due to its criticisms. I'm deep into Nier and Zelda right now, but I might just pick it up just to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[gingerbeardman]

Sure, but why not 30Hz then?

Maybe that was too slow?

Let's let the devs answer

Hi James!

 

[Turin Turambar]

hello friends! I am james, one of the developers of this strange game Rain World

more_badass politely asked if I'd be interested in hanging out in the OT thread here today to chat / answer questions, and because he has been our champion on the GAF for years, of course id be happy to

i think rather than lurk through previous pages, ill just take comments and questions directed at or around me henceforth.

ive been up all night with release stuff, so dont mind if responses are a little loopy!

Hi there

The obvious question here is, is there any plan to introduce an optional, easier difficulty in the game? If you check Steam forums, lots of people are also having problems already with the game.


I understand you can't tweak easily the difficulty of the game, by its nature.

-You can't plop down something like a free slot save feature, the code surely is setup to only save in the safe refuges (which don't need to store specific creature positions, as they will appear in different position after you hibernation), so that option is out.

-You also can't make some jumps easier for the player, you can't change the physical distances of ledges and chasms depending of the difficulty selected by the player!

-The game is designed with the concept of being killed in one hit by anything, you can't add 'more hp' to the player health, you don't even have a health bar, lol.

-But... I suppose it would be possible to make a 'casual' difficulty option where the rain needs 5 minutes more to arrive each time, and the vision/hearing of AI is reduced globally by 10-15%, making stealth a bit more easy.

 

[Mazre]

Squeezed in an hour or so of play before work this morning. I can definitely see the seeds of frustration for a lot of people but I think I'll be okay and may already be falling in love with this one.

My first lizard encounter started with one lizard and me watching from safety. Then they started pouring out of the walls. I think I must've seen around a half dozen of them coming and going before I had the courage to leave my bolthole, made it past and eventually clumsily served myself up to a lone lizard a few rooms away.

Movement is definitely sensitive, very easy to do something unintentional at this point. Also extremely easy to go butt-in to a pipe, especially when running at it head on (seems like hitting down just before arriving smooths entry, unsure if this is intended or just a quirk of the animation/physics.)

Gonna be a long day at work.

 

[spineduke]

Welcome James!

How did the team reconcile the conflicts in design between the one hit kills - the unpredictable AI placement and a checkpoint save system? It seems like an easy source of frustration for the player?

 

[jett]

I just don't understand this game. I'm still in the outskirts after an hour and I just don't get where I'm supposed to go.

 

[JamesPrimate]

Hi James, I've been following the game for a little while, love the art style and procedural animation, but I, like many, have been put off by the reviews mentioning just how hard and unforgiving the game is.

I get that this was an artistic vision, but are there are plans to make it more accesable to players who want a less difficult experience? (yeah, GAF will just tell me to GET GUD!)

Did this difficulty issue arise during playtesting much?, I am tempted to get the game, but I've been burnt by these things before, I get that a lot of people love the challenge and relish difficulty, so maybe the game just isn't for people like me!.

This is a very interesting question for sure, and one that we'll be debating over the next few weeks as we mull patches and updates.

You wont believe me saying this, but I've seen 12 year old girls play Rain World for the first time *amazingly* well. Flawlessly. So I dont think its so much the difficulty thats giving certain people issues, as much as it is a difference in perspective. This game requires the player to get into the mentality of a prey animal; observe, hide, sneak, be afraid.

When people bring the aggressive skillset that they have mastered from previous games and platformers into Rain World expecting to succeed they can hit a brick wall and get frustrated. They charge at a lizard with a rock and get eaten. They dash ahead recklessly looking for save points, etc, expecting to be rewarded for that because previous games have done so. They have been taught to expect a certain language, and to an extent Rain World differs from that language.

So I think what we'll want to do isn't so much "make it easier" as it is find ways of better telegraphing that aspect to new players who are not expecting it.

That said, watching streamers and reviewer play Rain World the past week has been an absolute joy! Some bounce right off of it of course, but the ones that get it seem to *really* get it and that is one of the most rewarding things ive experienced as a creator.

 

[Haunted]

Well, every score is almost arbitrary.


And yeah, I love how the game looks and the idea of how it plays, but I worry it's going to be too hard for me. From what I know after watching some streams:

-No guidance of where you have to go.
-Obscure mechanics and systems, you have to learn by yourself.
-Huge, labyrinthine map to lost yourself.
-One hit deaths by almost anything.
-Stealth enemies (with again, one hit kills)
-Fairly long stretches of game between checkpoints
-Insta death every 20 minutes by rain, you have to find a checkpoint before.
-Food needed to use checkpoints.
-Lost of rank with every death.
-As it's a platform metroidvania game, a failed jump to cross a chasm may mean a huge detour in your path to come back to that area, which in the end means your death because *rain*.

Now, one or two of these 'features' wouldn't make that hard, but all together and combined is going to give a tough experience.

It definitely seems like one of those games that you have to bite down on and dig into. Not sure I have space in my life for a title like that right now, but I applaud the devs for following through on their plans and putting it out there.

This is going on my wishlist for an eventual purchase for sure.

 

[JamesPrimate]

The obvious question here is, is there any plan to introduce an optional, easier difficulty in the game? If you check Steam forums, lots of people are also having problems already with the game.

This was touched on in my earlier post, but since your question was more specifically discussing game modes ill just say: Yep! That something thats been in discussion for a while now, we just didnt have the resources or the time for it to make the cut for the initial release. Its something we plan on having for the first content update, and might take the form of alternate narrative paths or game modes rather than nerfing of the current arc.

Hope that answers the question!

 

[danowat]

This is a very interesting question for sure, and one that we'll be debating over the next few weeks as we mull patches and updates.

You wont believe me saying this, but I've seen 12 year old girls play Rain World for the first time *amazingly* well. Flawlessly. So I dont think its so much the difficulty thats giving certain people issues, as much as it is a difference in perspective. This game requires the player to get into the mentality of a prey animal; observe, hide, sneak, be afraid.

When people bring the aggressive skillset that they have mastered from previous games and platformers into Rain World expecting to succeed they can hit a brick wall and get frustrated. They charge at a lizard with a rock and get eaten. They dash ahead recklessly looking for save points, etc, expecting to be rewarded for that because previous games have done so. They have been taught to expect a certain language, and to an extent Rain World differs from that language.

So I think what we'll want to do isn't so much "make it easier" as it is find ways of better telegraphing that aspect to new players who are not expecting it.

That said, watching streamers and reviewer play Rain World the past week has been an absolute joy! Some bounce right off of it of course, but the ones that get it seem to *really* get it and that is one of the most rewarding things ive experienced as a creator.

Thanks for the great reply, I'll keep my eye on things then, and see how the game progresses, but from what you say, I can definately see how people can like the game.

As for the 12 year old's, yeah, they've got much better hand / eye coordination than someone in their 40's

 

[More_Badass]

I just don't understand this game. I'm still in the outskirts after an hour and I just don't get where I'm supposed to go.

I think the fact that you can return to a region from the main menu, says a lot about how the game expects you to play. Focus less on forward progress, got to keep moving and get to the next area like a typical metroidvania, but rather more freeform sandbox-y exploration.

For example, there isn't one right way to go from Outskirts: it's connected to at least two other regions (maybe more?), and you're free to go to either one. The game does subtly guide you in one direction, since it's easier, but it doesn't stop you from going the other way

 

[Cyanity]

In lieu of Neir Automata's PC performance issues that still need ironing out, I think I'm gonna pick this game up today after work. Looking forward to it!

 

[jett]

I think the fact that you can return to a region from the main menu, says a lot about how the game expects you to play. Focus less on forward progress, got to keep moving and get to the next area like a typical metroidvania, but rather more freeform sandbox-y exploration.

For example, there isn't one right way to go from Outskirts: it's connected to at least two other regions (maybe more?), and you're free to go to either one. The game does subtly guide you in one direction, since it's easier, but it doesn't stop you from going the other way

Hmmm I made it to the "next" region. So you need to level up your symbol or whatever to advance? That was kind eh, I was just going in circles to do that.

I think the enemies are too random for my liking. It almost felt like I was wrasslin' with his one lizard, somehow the physics system in the game didn't allow it to kill me. But most will kill me as soon as they touch me.

 

[Crispy75]

ive been up all night with release stuff, so dont mind if responses are a little loopy!

Get some sleep

 

[B-B-Bomba!]

Welcome James, thanks for accepting Badass' invitation. Really wishing you well and hoping the launch is a good experience for you guys.

 

[JamesPrimate]

Welcome Janes, thanks for accepting Badass' invitation. Really wishing you well and hoping the launch is a good experience for you guys.

Thank you! It has been amazing so far. Seeing our strange little hobbyist ecosystem art project attract such attention will never stop surprising me.

 

[More_Badass]

Thank you! It has been amazing so far. Seeing our strange little hobbyist ecosystem art project attract such attention will never stop surprising me.

"Little"

Great to finally see you here, James!

 

[Danielsan]

Welcome James!

I've decided to pick up Rain World tonight. Despite the fact that I already have way too many games to play I'm just super excited to see what Rain World is all about.

Edit: Actually just bought it. Just got to support devs that have a unique vision and pour their heart into realizing that vision. Can't wait to try the game tonight!

 

[Apdiddy]

I bought Rain World yesterday on PSN so I'm excited to play this -- even though my backlog can be seen from space. Any possible way to have themes for Rain World, James (I know I could make a custom theme with a screenshot but I figure I ask)?

 

[JamesPrimate]

Thank you friends!

I bought Rain World yesterday on PSN so I'm excited to play this -- even though my backlog can be seen from space. Any possible way to have themes for Rain World, James (I know I could make a custom theme with a screenshot but I figure I ask)?

Ahhh yes this is something we wanted to do for launch but wound up buried in QA. We're planning some patches / content updates coming soon and we'll try to find a way to make it happen. Thats an easy one!

 

[MUnited83]

Hey James, could we get cloud saves on Steam? Should be pretty easy to enable with the steamwork tools.

 

[bosseye]

Buying my copy tonight I think, can't wait til payday ¬_¬

£12.79 on UK PSN for plus subscribers, for that price it would be daft not to get involved. I love the artstyle and the concept

 

[Crispy75]

Managed to play a handful of cycles on my lunch break. I outsmarted the lizards and felt super smart about it. I was holding a rock, a green was chasing me and a pink was hanging around up top. I threw the rock, but not at the green. The noise alerted the pink, which dropped down and saw the green. I ran away from both, hid in a hidy hole on the next screen and let pink chase green right past me so I could continue exploring. Felt good man

 

[jett]

Damn it I just got docked down to the first rank. I happily climbed into a pipe and at the last second a white enemy went down the same pipe and ate me. :| The enemies are too random in this game.

 

[alexanderftw]

This was touched on in my earlier post, but since your question was more specifically discussing game modes ill just say: Yep! That something thats been in discussion for a while now, we just didnt have the resources or the time for it to make the cut for the initial release. Its something we plan on having for the first content update, and might take the form of alternate narrative paths or game modes rather than nerfing of the current arc.

Hope that answers the question!

Any estimated time when that first content update might hit?

 

[jett]

Well, every score is almost arbitrary.


And yeah, I love how the game looks and the idea of how it plays, but I worry it's going to be too hard for me. From what I know after watching some streams:

-No guidance of where you have to go.
-Obscure mechanics and systems, you have to learn by yourself.
-Huge, labyrinthine map to lost yourself.
-One hit deaths by almost anything.
-Stealth enemies (with again, one hit kills)
-Fairly long stretches of game between checkpoints
-Insta death every 20 minutes by rain, you have to find a checkpoint before.
-Food needed to use checkpoints.
-Lost of rank with every death.
-As it's a platform metroidvania game, a failed jump to cross a chasm may mean a huge detour in your path to come back to that area, which in the end means your death because *rain*.

Now, one or two of these 'features' wouldn't make that hard, but all together and combined is going to give a tough experience.

Agreed, you hit the nail on the head. It's the combination of all of those things that can make this a frustrating experience. I've only made it to a second area but I can already see what I can expect for the rest of the game. I just don't see how it's necessary to have so many challenging elements put together.

Oh and you also lose a rank if you quit the game. Done to dissuade Alt+F4'ing your way out of game over I assume, but what if you legit just want to stop playing for the time being?

 

[Crispy75]

Oh and you also lose a rank if you quit the game. Done to dissuade Alt+F4'ing your way out of game over I assume, but what if you legit just want to stop playing for the time being?

Hibernate and choose Exit instead of Continue

 

[thumb]

This is a very interesting question for sure, and one that we'll be debating over the next few weeks as we mull patches and updates.

You wont believe me saying this, but I've seen 12 year old girls play Rain World for the first time *amazingly* well. Flawlessly. So I dont think its so much the difficulty thats giving certain people issues, as much as it is a difference in perspective. This game requires the player to get into the mentality of a prey animal; observe, hide, sneak, be afraid.

When people bring the aggressive skillset that they have mastered from previous games and platformers into Rain World expecting to succeed they can hit a brick wall and get frustrated. They charge at a lizard with a rock and get eaten. They dash ahead recklessly looking for save points, etc, expecting to be rewarded for that because previous games have done so. They have been taught to expect a certain language, and to an extent Rain World differs from that language.

So I think what we'll want to do isn't so much "make it easier" as it is find ways of better telegraphing that aspect to new players who are not expecting it.

That said, watching streamers and reviewer play Rain World the past week has been an absolute joy! Some bounce right off of it of course, but the ones that get it seem to *really* get it and that is one of the most rewarding things ive experienced as a creator.

First of all, congrats on release. And congrats on crafting such a memorable protagonist. The Slugcat stuck in my head from the moment I saw the early gifs years ago. (BTW, is the Slugcat protagonist male or female?)

To your points above, I'm more concerned about issues with controls mentioned in the Rock, Paper, Shotgun review, as well as issues of uncontrollable deaths due to entering a new screen and being eaten. The reviewer noted that some of these deaths are simply unavoidable and random. That sounds punitive, rather than simply challenging.

 

[jett]

Hibernate and choose Exit instead of Continue

ARRGHHHHHH.

Thanks.

 

[Crispy75]

is the Slugcat protagonist male or female?

yes

 

[Mandelbo]

Yeeeah I can see this getting really quite frustrating tbh. It feels as if I'm making almost no progress at all - I just finish exploring an arm of this area only to find that it loops back round to somewhere I've already been, then I run out of time and die, which probably wouldn't have happened had I not been fighting the controls half the time. It's also pretty shit when an enemy gets in your way with no real way of getting around it, so you have to try and lure it away, which wastes time, which then gets you killed.

I really want to like this, but a lot of the time I've died it just doesn't seem like there was much I could've done to stop it happening. Slugcat really doesn't control predictably or reliably enough for me - trying to perform a long jump and then either dropping down because the platform's tiny or barely moving at all because the platform's circular and blocked the jump is *really* annoying. Spending an age trying to find the right pixel to make a jump from when you *know* it's doable is utterly frustrating, doubly so because it causes you to take too long and then you have to do it all again.

/rant

 

[Minordeth]

Game is pretty fantastic. I'm not having as many issues with controls as others seem to be having, and I'm playing on the PS4. However, I am exclusively using the Dpad, and slugcat controls just fine with it. Once you get used to the fact that it has some "weight" to it, and account for that, pretty much all the movements are straightforward - including the backflip.

Other than that, this game feels like Super Metroid without the space station prologue, if Samus were simply dropped on the planet and had to figure it out from there. The sense of isolation and being just another step on the food chain is exhilarating.

Game's so immersive, I can almost feel the humidity.

 

[Calm Mind]

Destructoid was not kind to the SlugCat.

 

[prudislav]

Destructoid was not kind to the SlugCat.

reads like "was frustrated as i had to rush it to deadline" more than anything

 

[thumb]

reads like "was frustrated as i had to rush it to deadline" more than anything

The reviewers comments about controls and punitiveness have been echoed by other reviewers. And he has a self-professed love of difficult games, including difficult platformers.

 

[prudislav]

i dont know played couple hours last night and had not really any issues with controls :-/
Maybe its the gamepad problems? as I play on keyboard..
as for the difficulty ... its all about observing whats happening and slowly progressing , not rushing to unknown like a madman and the destructoid reviewer complaints about not being able to memorize what each color of lizard does and similar stuff ... come one thats not that hard, unless you just dont care and have ridiculously low attention span

yeah the game does have its problems , but its nowhere near as bad as the review-rushers make it out to be :-(