-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rain World |OT| Concrete Jungle
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
More_Badass
Member
Have to agree with the ranking criticism. The rank system is needlessly frustrating and unfair, an extra unneeded kick in the teeth on top of the "bottom of the food chain" intensity. Also it hamstrings the entire sense of exploration because you always have to be thinking if you have the right rank for a region gate, and then if you're in a tough section, you're focused less on survival and exploration and caring more about your rank. It feels like a game-y addition at odds with the naturalistic ecosystem survival
By that, I mean it really doesnt add anything to the core concept of the game. It feels like it's there only as something for the player to do, rather than something a slugcat prey would be concerned with it. The player goals and worries are not in sync with the action onscreen.
It's like when Shelter 2 added pointless collectables that suddenly created this layer of gaminess over the lynx survival, this extra thing that diminished the feeling of being an animal in the world. Suddenly you had human concerns, outside of the mindset of the animal you were playing as
Needing to worry and maintain rank here feels the same.
An early idea - "the gate cistern drains and needs to be refilled by rain" - would be much better. It would restrict players to one region change per cycle, and not punish players because they couldn't recall what the symbol was on a gate they encountered 45 minutes ago.
But really, losing a rank because you died is too much. Having to restart the cycle, and navigate the world, is risk enough
By that, I mean it really doesnt add anything to the core concept of the game. It feels like it's there only as something for the player to do, rather than something a slugcat prey would be concerned with it. The player goals and worries are not in sync with the action onscreen.
It's like when Shelter 2 added pointless collectables that suddenly created this layer of gaminess over the lynx survival, this extra thing that diminished the feeling of being an animal in the world. Suddenly you had human concerns, outside of the mindset of the animal you were playing as
Needing to worry and maintain rank here feels the same.
An early idea - "the gate cistern drains and needs to be refilled by rain" - would be much better. It would restrict players to one region change per cycle, and not punish players because they couldn't recall what the symbol was on a gate they encountered 45 minutes ago.
But really, losing a rank because you died is too much. Having to restart the cycle, and navigate the world, is risk enough
Something weird is going on with the gamepad controls. When I use the d-pad on the main menu it just switches between the first two options but it won't go any further down than that, and then the game tells me the X button is jump but it's actually Circle. Weird.
I'm using a DS4 with DS4Windows, but I have it set to hidden so for all intents and purposes it's a 360 Gamepad.
EDIT: OK so I just set the in-game control method to Xbox 360 controller instead of PS4. Behaves normally now, even though I'm using an actual DS4. It's fine, I know what buttons are what anyway so not really a big deal.
I'm using a DS4 with DS4Windows, but I have it set to hidden so for all intents and purposes it's a 360 Gamepad.
EDIT: OK so I just set the in-game control method to Xbox 360 controller instead of PS4. Behaves normally now, even though I'm using an actual DS4. It's fine, I know what buttons are what anyway so not really a big deal.
Turin Turambar
Member
He clearly explains the problems he had with the game, with very nuanced explanations and arguments. Nothing on it makes me thing he rushed the game for the review nor that he didn't understand the style of the game.
^
This too - it would really help if the Slugcat was more visible underwater, especially when you can't stay under very long and enemies home in on you.
I also have to say that yeah, More_Badass, this probably wouldn't be quite as frustrating if there wasn't actually anything tangible to lose from death. Getting reset to the last shelter you rested at, with your map reset to the state it was at when you last saved too, is punishment enough without having the threat of being physically unable to progress thrown in there as well. I'm really not looking forward to the inevitable moment where I finally make it through a tough area, only to find I'm not at a high enough rank to continue, forcing me to backtrack to a shelter.
It just turns the game into busy work. Once you find a gate, the game is reduced to checkpoint-get food-back to same checkpoint-get-food-back to same checkpoint-etc until you get to the appropriate rank. Then if you die back to the same loop.
So, after about an hour in the game, I don't really like it in its current form. Controls feel imprecise - for example, it seems really random whether I'm gonna grab hold of a horizontal bar or not, even though I'm holding up on the controller while falling across it. And having the "charge jump" action be pressing down on the controller is a really bad way to do things, especially when pressing down on the controller also means "fall through this platform that you didn't even knew was half-solid"
And the double whammy of feeling pressure to get to a shelter before the rainstorm and that you're so weak that you have to take it slow makes everything a chore. On top of that, every death takes away a level so you feel like you're making negative progress most of the time.
And the double whammy of feeling pressure to get to a shelter before the rainstorm and that you're so weak that you have to take it slow makes everything a chore. On top of that, every death takes away a level so you feel like you're making negative progress most of the time.
DouglasteR
Member
So it´s worth the price ?
Im attracted to it´s unique animation system and dire world.
Im attracted to it´s unique animation system and dire world.
More_Badass
Member
Right now, my ideal fixes/improvements would be:
- Map knowledge should persist after death
- There should a shelter as close as possible to every region gate
- Gates shouldn't be connected to rank, and dying shouldn't reduce rank
- The game needs a Dark Souls/roguelike-style Save and Quit option
More_Badass
Member
You dont hold down to charge the jump. They didnt tutorialize that right, you only need to hold jump
More_Badass
Member
That's like the whole point of the world though.
Think of it like individual runs in a roguelike, not continuous exploration being interrupted.
More_Badass
Member
He's both. Hanging near a room exit is hinting that you might want to head that way. It leads you down the main region progression
I'm liking the core of this but I feel like I need a bit more guidance in the beginning with regards to just getting a general sense of direction, and honestly when it comes to the checkpointing system I just.... can't. I can't.
To me, losing 15 minutes is a lot and that's just me fiddling around near the shelter. Hard to imagine how bad it gets later on in terms of losing progress, definitely does not really incentivize me to invest more time in this.
I'm putting this one on hold for now, I love the foundation but I just foresee too much frustration and it's not good for me.
To me, losing 15 minutes is a lot and that's just me fiddling around near the shelter. Hard to imagine how bad it gets later on in terms of losing progress, definitely does not really incentivize me to invest more time in this.
I'm putting this one on hold for now, I love the foundation but I just foresee too much frustration and it's not good for me.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Man, feels like I've been waiting a loooooooooooooooooong time for this. Hope it turned out.
Also, glad to see it got a GOG release.
Also, glad to see it got a GOG release.
Crab Milk Mickey
Member
I mean, it isn't the first time reviewers have blamed controls being "unresponsive" with more demanding games and it just not being the case. After having fiddled around with it myself, Rain World's are thus far nuanced, not susceptible to input delay or not coming out at all.
The only thing I found problematic about the controls was the ledge / rail grabbing. I would really like if you either fell a little slower or you simply had an auto-grab when falling down. It's really quite difficult to drop from one pipe to another, or to recover from an accidental fall.
Otherwise I really don't feel like the controls are an obstacle at all.
Also a "gentle" lock on for throwing objects at enemies would be really nice. As it is right now, it's so unlikely that you'll hit them it simply isn't worth carrying around projectiles. Something that sort of subtly guides your aim would be good, either that or a targeting / lock-on feature using one of the shoulder buttons.
Otherwise I really don't feel like the controls are an obstacle at all.
Also a "gentle" lock on for throwing objects at enemies would be really nice. As it is right now, it's so unlikely that you'll hit them it simply isn't worth carrying around projectiles. Something that sort of subtly guides your aim would be good, either that or a targeting / lock-on feature using one of the shoulder buttons.
I don't think the controls are bad or unresponsive at all. The only issue I have with them so far is if you're using analogy sticks the deadzone is too small and crouching requires pointing down almost at the centre, so you can sometimes crouch in the wrong direction when preparing for a jump.
I think some physics/animation quirks is what people are complaining about, not actual unresponsiveness.
I think some physics/animation quirks is what people are complaining about, not actual unresponsiveness.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
I can imagine this being much more responsive and fun to control with a d-pad than with analogue.
In my day, we considered ourselves lucky to have a button! (etc. etc.)
The complaints I'm reading in reviews are less about responsiveness and more about accuracy. That is, how well inputs are translated into intended actions, not input lag.
YianGaruga
Banned
Afdter playing roughly 2 hours I'd say the negative reviews are accurate, at least the text. Scores are a bit harder to judge and are highly subjective, in this game more than in others. I'm preeetty sure though many reviewers did not finish this game. This shit is HARD
After those two hours I feel like I made almost no progress. I was in a different area once (drainage pipes) but then I died and was waaay back in the earlier area. I learned a thing or two about the creatures and the controls and the world (as in figured it out myself, the game would never tell you) but that's it.
My main complaints
- STOP GOING INTO PIPES BACKWARDS WTF
- I appreciate that the yellow thing is trying to tell me where to go, but half the time I don't even understand it. "Go this direction to weird symbol I've never seen before". okay.
- Rank system makes less sense as I go on. I reached the highest rank " Survivor". Then after some time I was able to select "Passage" in the hibernation sequence, got a picture, and now I'm "Chieftain"? But seemingly nothing has changed? What is even going on.
The moment to moment gameplay and exploration is cool, when it works.
I will continue playing but it'd be a stretch to say I'm "enjoying" it. The most positive thing I can say is that it's unlike anything I've ever played. Which is something at least!
^Actually, if feel some similarities to the first Prince of Persia, with very slow and deliberate movement where every mistake will kill you. Just with even more mechanics layered on top that will make your life hell.
After those two hours I feel like I made almost no progress. I was in a different area once (drainage pipes) but then I died and was waaay back in the earlier area. I learned a thing or two about the creatures and the controls and the world (as in figured it out myself, the game would never tell you) but that's it.
My main complaints
- STOP GOING INTO PIPES BACKWARDS WTF
- I appreciate that the yellow thing is trying to tell me where to go, but half the time I don't even understand it. "Go this direction to weird symbol I've never seen before". okay.
- Rank system makes less sense as I go on. I reached the highest rank " Survivor". Then after some time I was able to select "Passage" in the hibernation sequence, got a picture, and now I'm "Chieftain"? But seemingly nothing has changed? What is even going on.
The moment to moment gameplay and exploration is cool, when it works.
I will continue playing but it'd be a stretch to say I'm "enjoying" it. The most positive thing I can say is that it's unlike anything I've ever played. Which is something at least!
^Actually, if feel some similarities to the first Prince of Persia, with very slow and deliberate movement where every mistake will kill you. Just with even more mechanics layered on top that will make your life hell.
Fakeknowledge
Member
Gonna be starting this in a bit, any tips or advice for a beginner?
More_Badass
Member
Pipe movement tips:
-
You can press the opposite direction + jump to turn around in pipes
If you're against a wall or floor, jumping will boost you forward through the pipe.
If you're in a verictal jump, down + jump will make you drop to the bottom
YianGaruga
Banned
Yeah I figured these out, but there really seems to be no reason to even be able to go into pipes backwards and be slower. It should just turn around automatically. And if I go straight at a pipe it should never go in with its ass first!
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Anyone got information on the PC resolutions? I'm not getting 1080p options is that normal?
More_Badass
Member
You can throw spears and stones at the thing coming into the pipe after you. Took out a few lizards like that
It's fixed res, cos of the pixel art.
Just a quick impression, but I love what I'm seeing. Controls work well enough on the keyboard, I just need to get more used to it. And holy shit at that heavy rain, that's some tough stuff. I love catching small flies to feed myself, and was truly scared of one of those lizard when I went to hide in the other side and then I got eaten and pulled damn; the other time it didn't find me.
So, speaking in the most general terms, after having played a little of this game, I think it comes down to this:
I could easily tolerate (and even enjoy) either the extremely long distance between checkpoints OR the general lack of direction, but not both at the same time.
They game would be very fun with sparse checkpoints and a clear sense of where to go - like a Souls game.
The game would be very fun with quick restarts and total freedom to poke around and find your own way - like an old Zelda game.
Both at once, to me, is just too discouraging. Pressing deeper and deeper only to die and not even have known if you're heading somewhere promising is just too harsh for me.
I could easily tolerate (and even enjoy) either the extremely long distance between checkpoints OR the general lack of direction, but not both at the same time.
They game would be very fun with sparse checkpoints and a clear sense of where to go - like a Souls game.
The game would be very fun with quick restarts and total freedom to poke around and find your own way - like an old Zelda game.
Both at once, to me, is just too discouraging. Pressing deeper and deeper only to die and not even have known if you're heading somewhere promising is just too harsh for me.
Played a bit last night, got myself to the first safe point and watched a few green and pink lizards fight eachother, i kept going and a few rooms later a pink lizard caught me and i got the death text, i watched as the lizard went back some rooms with the slugcat on his mouth then it got attacked by the lizards i was watching before and i broke free, that was pretty cool, then got myself killed as i was throwing bricks pretty close to another pink lizard, but this time no one saved me.
I was playing on keyboard, and i was struggling with the up/down stance, i also didn't try the long jumps since i didnt got a hang of how long you gotta press down/jump for the long jump to register, gonna try it again with a controller, i liked what i played.
I was playing on keyboard, and i was struggling with the up/down stance, i also didn't try the long jumps since i didnt got a hang of how long you gotta press down/jump for the long jump to register, gonna try it again with a controller, i liked what i played.
Maybe a better implementation would be to hold a button down to keep the direction you are facing fixed?
Fushichou187
Member
Downloading now. Hoo boy at some of those reviews; sounds like some people don't like hard games lol
Been following this for years and am so happy it's finally here.
Been following this for years and am so happy it's finally here.
More_Badass
Member
Agreed. The rank system hurts, but the actual shelters system and needing to get back to shelters and all that works well.
Well, certainly like this game although I feel I'm stuck in this area now where it takes me a long while to get back to one safe room I found so the rain will kill me or to farm around the area I'm in until I reach the 4th symbol to unlock a new area.
The most frustrating moment thus far was getting killed by an axolotl whilst transitioning between scenes as there was absolutely no way of knowing it was above and to the right from the previous scene and absolutely no time to react (half a second at best); overall it doesn't seem too bad but I'm still in the opening area as far as I know. That said the danger and pressure results in a very atmospheric and tense emotional experience that I'm not sure would be achieved without the controversial save system. Either way Rain World is definitely unique and it's worth checking out from an art and design perspective alone. Will post some more thoughts later.
Oh; definitely needs a live "save and quit" button like Dark Souls as I've lost that symbol rank twice as I had other commitments pop up, maybe three times after I quit after dying once? Not sure. Does the fruit respawn alongside the flying things after a save/death and what do the blue expanding circles on the map mean?
The most frustrating moment thus far was getting killed by an axolotl whilst transitioning between scenes as there was absolutely no way of knowing it was above and to the right from the previous scene and absolutely no time to react (half a second at best); overall it doesn't seem too bad but I'm still in the opening area as far as I know. That said the danger and pressure results in a very atmospheric and tense emotional experience that I'm not sure would be achieved without the controversial save system. Either way Rain World is definitely unique and it's worth checking out from an art and design perspective alone. Will post some more thoughts later.
Oh; definitely needs a live "save and quit" button like Dark Souls as I've lost that symbol rank twice as I had other commitments pop up, maybe three times after I quit after dying once? Not sure. Does the fruit respawn alongside the flying things after a save/death and what do the blue expanding circles on the map mean?
bender
What time is it?
So that's how you open gates? I found two last night and wasn't able to progress. Maybe I'm dense but that could have been communicated to the player better.
I'm in the lower parts of the
now, just before a gate with red lights on it - I haven't seen any food in a very long time. I've been finding lots of blue conker things sprouting around, though. What do they do? Slugcat can't eat them, and throwing them doesn't do anything unusual, but they've been appearing all over the place and there are no enemies around, so surely they must serve some other purpose?
Drainage System
Little round gems? They serve a purpose.
Hi guys, Joar here, one of the devs! Thanks for the passionate discussion, believe me we're soaking this up like sponges right now.
I'll hang around and answer questions for a bit, but I think there's one point that I can get straight to without a direct question - difficulty, haha!
An "easy mode" has been discussed within the team and we do have plans for it, but right now we really really really wanted to release a game and get it out there, so we went ahead! Much of the difficult (or punishing) features of the game come from a core theme of the project - survival above anything else. We want to encourage conservative play above mad rushes ~ first make sure you have food, then carefully explore. I think there's a lot of the criticism that can totally fit into that framework. For example, more save points (and more food?) would play really well with that philosophy. Keep it coming, we're all pen and pad right now!
I'll hang around and answer questions for a bit, but I think there's one point that I can get straight to without a direct question - difficulty, haha!
An "easy mode" has been discussed within the team and we do have plans for it, but right now we really really really wanted to release a game and get it out there, so we went ahead! Much of the difficult (or punishing) features of the game come from a core theme of the project - survival above anything else. We want to encourage conservative play above mad rushes ~ first make sure you have food, then carefully explore. I think there's a lot of the criticism that can totally fit into that framework. For example, more save points (and more food?) would play really well with that philosophy. Keep it coming, we're all pen and pad right now!
Can you guys add cloud saves on Steam?
Don't think that would be too hard - steam API has been pretty easy to work with so far. We miiight have some balancing stuff to attend to at the top of our prio list though ~~~
Herr Schwarz
Banned
Dang this game is pretty tough! I have a route I keep trying and basically have dedicated myself getting to the end of it, keep failing due to bad miscalculations as to when to interact with the metal bars when jumping etc.
YianGaruga
Banned
2 hours in the drainage system later, down to the lowest rank again now (the ranking system seems to branch out in 3 directions now, still no clue why) and I would try and get a refund if I bought this on Steam. There really isn't any reward for all the bullshit you have to go through, I feel like I'm just hitting my head against a wall. The cool moments where you see or learn something new are extremely rare compared to all the going through areas you've seen 20 times already and dying to a random control fluke or hidden trap.
Hard to recommend.
I also can't really agree with all the "prettiest 2D game ever" statements, I think it doesn't look that great. The procedual tech is neat, of course.
Question for the devs: Are people supposed to figure out the ranking/symbol stuff by themselves or is it supposed to be figured out through discussions in forums and other places? Because it's EXTREMELY cryptic and doesn't really seem to fit into the game.
Hard to recommend.
I also can't really agree with all the "prettiest 2D game ever" statements, I think it doesn't look that great. The procedual tech is neat, of course.
Question for the devs: Are people supposed to figure out the ranking/symbol stuff by themselves or is it supposed to be figured out through discussions in forums and other places? Because it's EXTREMELY cryptic and doesn't really seem to fit into the game.