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[TheGreyHulk]

Next gen better be a quantum leap. The capabilities of todays GPUs obliterate what the PS360 can handle. It's been 7-8 years technology wise. A lot has changed. The GPU's in the PS360 only have a theoretical 200-240 GFLOPS (billions of floating point calculations per second) in them. The top chip available right now, the HD 7970 ghz edition, has a theoretical 4,300 GFLOPS.....thats 18x more computational power people.

even a radeon 4800 from mid 2008 has 1200 GFLOPS, that's 5x more computational power and that was released a mere 19 months after the PS3.

GPU technology has been moving at a blistering rate. Today's best midrange GPU, 7870 pumps out 2560 GFLOPS and the GTX 660 Ti pumps out 2460 GFLOPS.

It's quite easy to see the PS4/720 being a LOT better than the current generation even if they use midrange parts because the tech in the ps360 is based on 2004-05 level technology. Even the Wii U will be significantly more capable than the PS360, but it's being used as a straight up port machine right now, so we won't see games take advantage of it until the PS4/720 are released and the Wii U will get the proper games to utilize it's advanced hardware. It won't be PS4/720 level, but it will easily best what can be done on today's hardware.

 

[SniperHunter]

There isn't a single game on the market that's made for DX11 exclusively. This is why the next gen launch line up will look great.

 

[StuBurns]

Heh MGS3 did that on PS2...

Yeah, but those blades of grass where like two foot tall and four inches across. I don't think that counts.

 

[Reiko]

There isn't a single game on the market that's made for DX11 exclusively. This is why the next gen launch line up will look great.

I don't understand why some PC gamers consider maxed out DX9/DX10 games=next gen

 

[SniperHunter]

I don't understand why some PC gamers consider maxed out DX9/DX10 games=next gen

yea there's too much DX9 legacy code in today's PC games and most of them are designed around DX9 minimum requirements.

When the shackles of minimum requirements and DX9 are broken next year, we will see true DX11 games.

And personally, I think the addition of more ram will allow developers to free themselves of linear game design and move to a Crysis like sandbox design

 

[AOC83]

How do you know this though?.

Leaks, game demos (watch dogs, frog, Star Wars), company philosophy, common sense.

What did you mean by Wii 2.0?.

The WiiU has basically the same concept the Wii had(casual focus, weak hardware etc.), hence Wii 2.0.

 

[StuBurns]

And personally, I think the addition of more ram will allow developers to free themselves of linear game design and move to a Crysis like sandbox design

That would be fantastic.

That's always a big argument when people talk about technology leaps, 'oh well it'll either cost far more, or they'll have to make it way more linear', but no, Crysis still completely outclasses anything on the consoles in terms of visuals, and it's scope is easily beyond any linear shooter on there too, and it only cost around twenty million to make, with building the engine.

It can all be done very reasonably.

 

[KageMaru]

As far as I can remember lauch games of 2005-2006 were superior to anything available on PC. PGR 3 looked incredible at the time.

Hopefully it will happen again.

Well my line of thought was many of the effects and techniques being developed on high end PC games at the time (normal mapping, soft shadows, HDR, etc.) were a preview of things to come this gen.

I don't expect launch games to really impress with resolution or frame rate, but in terms of scale, effects, models, art, etc. I think it's fair to expect games similar to today's high end PC games.

I don't understand why some PC gamers consider maxed out DX9/DX10 games=next gen

Because how good a game looks is hardly dependent on the API it runs on? Witcher 2 was considered one of the best looking PC games at launch but it's a DX9 game. I wouldn't complain if we had games looking like high end Witcher 2 at the PS4/720 launch.

 

[Meelow]

Leaks, game demos (watch dogs, frog, Star Wars), company philosophy, common sense.




The WiiU has basically the same concept the Wii had(casual focus, weak hardware etc.), hence Wii 2.0.

You mean the leaks that say the Xbox 720 is 6x the 360?, and the demos from high end PC's and the company that made the PS3 the most powerful console but the PS1 and PS2 where weaker than competition?.

But it doesn't, the Wii U is not focusing on the casuals, their where only like 3 casual games announced at E3 while the rest being core, I guess Microsoft is all causal now.

And the Wii U won't be weaker as like the Wii was you got to stop thinking that.

 

[XtremeXpider]

N64

Dreamcast

Are you seriuos?

(Much) better textures and 480p are some improvements.

 

[MadeInBeats]

I do. I have no doubt that launch Ps4/540 will be mind blowing in comparison to the top tier graphics of the current gen.

That isn't the case for those games Vs top end PC graphics at the moment, so whatever planet you've just arrived from I'd get straight back on your spaceship and go back because life sounds great up there.

 

[Reiko]

Well my line of thought was many of the effects and techniques being developed on high end PC games at the time (normal mapping, soft shadows, HDR, etc.) were a preview of things to come this gen.

I don't expect launch games to really impress with resolution or frame rate, but in terms of scale, effects, models, art, etc. I think it's fair to expect games similar to today's high end PC games.



Because how good a game looks is hardly dependent on the API it runs on? Witcher 2 was considered one of the best looking PC games at launch but it's a DX9 game. I wouldn't complain if we had games looking like high end Witcher 2 at the PS4/720 launch.

Well it's no surprise that the Direct X11 made games all have a CG look...

Watch Dogs, Star Wars 1313, Fortnite...

 

[KageMaru]

You mean the leaks that say the Xbox 720 is 6x the 360?, and the demos from high end PC's and the company that made the PS3 the most powerful console but the PS1 and PS2 where weaker than competition?.

But it doesn't, the Wii U is not focusing on the casuals, their where only like 3 casual games announced at E3 while the rest being core, I guess Microsoft is all causal now.

And the Wii U won't be weaker as like the Wii was you got to stop thinking that.

I don't think anyone is saying the gap will be the same this gen, but it will still be there and it will still be noticeable.

lol @ MS all casual now.

 

[Reiko]

Are you seriuos?

(Much) better textures and 480p are some improvements.

What you're not noticing is the more intricate facial expressions on the DC version, obviously more polygons, and a framerate of 60fps... Compared to the N64 version which ran below 30fps at times.

 

[Meelow]

I don't think anyone is saying the gap will be the same this gen, but it will still be there and it will still be noticeable.

lol @ MS all casual now.

Of course it is, but it won't be that big, it will still be noticeable though.

He called the Wii U focusing on casual I guess people can say the same for Microsoft, I mean aren't they focusing on Kinect and the Media and won't even let Rare make core games?.

I guess Sony is casual too, Little Big Planet isn't for mature people.

That's what I took from his comment.

 

[SniperHunter]

Because how good a game looks is hardly dependent on the API it runs on? Witcher 2 was considered one of the best looking PC games at launch but it's a DX9 game. I wouldn't complain if we had games looking like high end Witcher 2 at the PS4/720 launch.

The world of Witcher 2 is very static. The forest hardly ever moves, there's no wind...minimal interactivity with the environment. Now compare it with Watch_Dogs, when he is walking to the theatre, the environment looks so "alive." I played Witcher 2 on high settings and I wasn't impressed that much.

any game with full dynamic real time lighting will blow Witcher 2 away.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

I don't understand why some PC gamers consider maxed out DX9/DX10 games=next gen

they don't consider them next gen. next gen to a pc gamer are games based on the next generation of engines like UE4 and CryEngine3.

Crysis 3 is going to be the true 1st next gen title on PC. The developers have stated that they plan to push the PC to it's limits with this game and it's coming out in spring 13.


Here's some next gen engines by Square-Enix, Unreal, Crytek. The level of fidelity is much greater than what can be done on consoles. The high geometry, shaders, physics, particle effects are what will separate the next gen engines from todays dx9 based engines that are very old.

Square's new Luminous engine running in real time on present day PC hardware
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmaotBON9NM

Unreal Engine 4 running in real time on a single GTX 680. Runs without a hitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acR4n6lJEdQ
*UE4 is designed to be run on DX11 GPU's with 1TFLOP (1000 gflops) of processing power. We've had this since 2009 with the HD 5770 being the low bar @ 1.3 TFLOPS.

Crytek's Cryengine 3.0 which was used f/ Crysis 2 and the engine is already 3 years old, but is fully capable of doing everything UE4 is doing and Crysis 3 will set the bar even higher on this engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ffBZI5PpM

 

[XtremeXpider]

He called the Wii U focusing on casual I guess people can say the same for Microsoft, I mean aren't they focusing on Kinect and the Media and won't even let Rare make core games?.

Not at all, this year there will be only 1 Kinect game.

I guess Sony is casual too, Little Big Planet isn't for mature people.

casual != non mature

 

[Arla]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

 

[Reiko]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

Better dev tools will soften the blow. Having all of these worlds with baked in lighting and shadows is more time consuming and expensive.

 

[SniperHunter]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

Development will get easier....this was pointed out in recent Q&A sessions at Gamescom and also by Epic.

Better dev tools will soften the blow. Having all of these worlds with baked in lighting and shadows is more time consuming and expensive.

yea these are the two examples they used at gamescome (Sony devs)

 

[XtremeXpider]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

Xbox 720 will be DirectX, same api, it is cross platform (PC<->Xbox 720), better dev tools...

 

[Meelow]

Not at all, this year there will be only 1 Kinect game.




casual != non mature

Exactly this year, but who's to say Microsoft isn't working on Kinect 2 for Xbox 720 to capture the casual audience and try to be a Wii60 next gen.

That's what people think when they saw the Wii it should be applied everywhere.

 

[MadeInBeats]

I don't think anyone is saying the gap will be the same this gen, but it will still be there and it will still be noticeable.

lol @ MS all casual now.

Anything is mostly noticeable to people who post on games forums and with an interest in tech. As for how much of a jump MS/Sony offer over WiiU so that it's a USP (like they have relied on previous gens, MS more so) to the general public (the people who massively out weigh people who post on forums) I certainly don't think it will be there.

Console purchases to Joe Public WILL be down to games & USPs but the best GRAPHICS will NOT be one.

I think think Sony may package Move in with PS4, MS Kinect2 obviously.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Exactly this year, but who's to say Microsoft isn't working on Kinect 2 for Xbox 720 to capture the casual audience and try to be a Wii60 next gen.

That's what people think when they saw the Wii it should be applied everywhere.

But that not meaning "focusing on casual"

 

[UrbanRats]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

I don't know if that's directly related to HW power.
Even staying with the same HW for 7 years, we've seen companies trying to 1up each other in terms of production values.

 

[StuBurns]

You mean the leaks that say the Xbox 720 is 6x the 360?

Leaks have suggested all sorts of things, anything that is '-x the 360' will be inaccurate, you can't articulate a hardware difference so plainly.

and the demos from high end PC's

People say this like it means anything. They showed SW1313 on PC because they are not allowed to show it on Orbis or Durango, no one can show anything on them. They are not building these beautiful new engines for the PC, they're building them for the consoles.

and the company that made the PS3 the most powerful console but the PS1 and PS2 where weaker than competition?.

It's debatable that the PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the PS1/2 were not the least powerful of their generations either.

But it doesn't, the Wii U is not focusing on the casuals, their where only like 3 casual games announced at E3 while the rest being core, I guess Microsoft is all causal now.

Ports are irrelevant, people would port their casual games if they could, but no one made them for PS360 to port. So let's look at the WiiU exclusives:

Game Party Champions
Game & Wario
Jett Tailfin
Lego City Undercover
NSMBU
Nintendo Land
Pikmin 3
P-100
Rabbids Land
Rayman Legends
Sing
Sports Connection
Tank! Tank! Tank!
Your Shape
WiiU Fit
ZombiU

I see three 'core' titles, the rest are various degrees of family friendly titles with a few alpha moms in there.

 

[TheGreyHulk]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

There's already a ton of amazing indie games on PC which is the indie game mecca.

The engines of tomorrow make it much easier for developers to create games and make adjustments in real time thanks to the power of todays GPUs as noted by UE4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acR4n6lJEdQ

It takes a lot of $ for developers to make high end games pushing the console barrier because they're constantly struggling to make their game work on hardware that's too old. Artwork and models are already done in very high fidelity RIGHT NOW. They have to downsample everything just to make it work on todays consoles. It takes a ton of time to get this done and it's a waste of money. Next gen will bring in more efficiency. Less time wasted on making it work and the new engines are increasing efficiency.

A lot of games have super high development costs because they're trying to make movie like games with high paid voice actors, excessive motion capture time, and etc. Next gen will usher in a new era of efficiency. Microsoft is going to streamline their console to fall in line with the PC. That means an x86 CPU + DX11 GPU which will provide us with games that are compatible with both PC/720 with just a simple click of a button since the architectures are the same. With hardware that's easier for developers to work with, it'll be cheaper to develop games next gen instead of having devs struggle to wrap their heads around these non-standard complex architectures (think Sony's Cell CPU)

 

[Meelow]

But that not meaning "focusing on casual"

But people said that about Wii, why shouldn't that be applied to Sony and Microsoft as well?.

 

[XtremeXpider]

But people said that about Wii, why shouldn't that be applied to Sony and Microsoft as well?.

Well, the proportion of "party" games vs "core" games is bigger in Wii than PS360.

 

[Baconsammy]

You mean the leaks that say the Xbox 720 is 6x the 360?, and the demos from high end PC's and the company that made the PS3 the most powerful console but the PS1 and PS2 where weaker than competition?.

But it doesn't, the Wii U is not focusing on the casuals, their where only like 3 casual games announced at E3 while the rest being core, I guess Microsoft is all causal now.

And the Wii U won't be weaker as like the Wii was you got to stop thinking that.

Nintendo won't decide if the Wii U is a casual console. Third parties will. And so far it doesnt appear much has changed since the Wii, but you can't really blame third parties for being gun-shy.

 

[Meelow]

Well, the proportion of "party" games vs "core" games is bigger in Wii than PS360.

Doesn't matter people still said it.

Leaks have suggested all sorts of things, anything that is '-x the 360' will be inaccurate, you can't articulate a hardware difference so plainly.

Still they are rumors.

People say this like it means anything. They showed SW1313 on PC because they are not allowed to show it on Orbis or Durango, no one can show anything on them. They are not building these beautiful new engines for the PC, they're building them for the consoles.

What makes you think they can't also run on Wii U?

It's debatable that the PS3 is more powerful than the 360, but the PS1/2 were not the least powerful of their generations either.

It's debatable which is more powerful PS1 or Saturn, but the PS2 was weaker than GameCube and Xbox.

Ports are irrelevant, people would port their casual games if they could, but no one made them for PS360 to port. So let's look at the WiiU exclusives:

Game Party Champions - Core/Casual
Game & Wario - Core/Casual
Jett Tailfin - Never seen it
Lego City Undercover - A Lego version of GTA?, Core
NSMBU - Core
Nintendo Land - For hardcore Nintendo fans
Pikmin 3 - Core
P-100 - Core
Rabbids Land - Family
Rayman Legends - Core
Sing - Family
Sports Connection - Core/Casual
Tank! Tank! Tank! - Core
Your Shape - Casual
WiiU Fit - Casual
ZombiU - Core

Because, last time I checked, both PS3 and Xbox 360 had tons of non-casual games.

It still had it though.

 

[Haliela]

I don't have the time or money to spend on expensive console gaming anymore. The more advanced we get and the more money companies are willing to pour in to these things means that the customers are going to have to recoup even MORE expenses. I am hoping charging for online services, even more micro transaction DLC, and $70+ software isn't in the near future. Gaming is expensive enough as it is. I've been doing more gaming on handhelds lately because of the savings. The hardware is cheaper and games are also cheaper.

I'm excited to see what this next round of consoles will bring, but I'm most certainly not excited about even more money being thrown around. I hope Sony comes back with the PS4 and shows Microsoft that customers don't want to be forced to pay for online gaming. I'm also hoping Nintendo shows the industry how to correctly do DLC.

 

[Shion]

But people said that about Wii, why shouldn't that be applied to Sony and Microsoft as well?.

Because, last time I checked, both PS3 and Xbox 360 had tons of non-casual games.

 

[StuBurns]

What makes you think they can't also run on Wii U?

Epic.

It's debatable which is more powerful PS1 or Saturn, but the PS2 was weaker than GameCube and Xbox.

And the Dreamcast was weaker than the PS2.

And it might be modeled after GTA, but that Lego game is a Lego game, it's for kids. I disagree with most of the rest of your classifications too, but the post is a mess so I won't be going one by one.

 

[Phonomezer]

N64

Dreamcast

N64 (emulated)

Dreamcast

 

[Meelow]

Epic.

And the Dreamcast was weaker than the PS2.

And it might be modeled after GTA, but that Lego game is a Lego game, it's for kids. I disagree with most of the rest of your classifications too, but the post is a mess so I won't be going one by one.

Where did Epic say that?.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...cater-to-core-gamers-first-mass-market-second

 

[StuBurns]

Where did Epic say that?.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...cater-to-core-gamers-first-mass-market-second

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475868

Feel free to read it all before suggesting otherwise.

 

[Reiko]

Unless the Wii-U can run this game as this pic demonstrates...

Then I think we will have our answer.

The Wii U will have some impressive looking exclusive titles. But let's get our expectations in check.

 

[AstroNut325]

Hurray, even more companies filing for bankruptcy because of ridiculous costs. Then we can all look forward to amazing indie games on iOS.

But... better hardware means less time spent on optimizations and tuning of various effects, LOD, lighting, character models, ect. If we stay close to current gen we will still have to rely on tools and frameworks of the current gen. Meaning you're simply raising the cost of development for a studio who does want to push the audio/visual fidelity envelope.

 

[Meelow]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475868

Feel free to read it all before suggesting otherwise.

Not Targeted != Not having.

Unless the Wii-U can run this game as this pic demonstrates...

Then I think we will have our answer.

The Wii U will have some impressive looking exclusive titles. But let's get our expectations in check.

I think people hyping up the PS4 and Xbox 720 specs should keep expectations in check as well...

 

[Reiko]

N64 (emulated)

Dreamcast

Heh... N64 was nowhere close... And that was the sequel on N64 verses the original on Dreamcast!

 

[StuBurns]

Not Targeted != Not having.

I know for a fact you didn't read that whole thread before replying as I suggested, so I won't bother addressing you again on this subject.

 

[zoukka]

R2R Bozing was actually very good looking on the DC when it came out. Perfectly smooth and I hadn't seen such complex facial expressions in a videogame before that. I think the characters also had visible damage on them.

 

[Shion]

Nintendo won't decide if the Wii U is a casual console. Third parties will.

No, 3rd parties don't decide these things, Nintendo does.

 

[DeadTrees]

they don't consider them next gen. next gen to a pc gamer are games based on the next generation of engines like UE4 and CryEngine3.

Erm, you do know there are CryEngine 3 games out right now? Including the console port of Crysis?

Crysis 3 is going to be the true 1st next gen title on PC.

And the check is in the mail, trust me I'm a car salesman, my herpes is in remission, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Meelow]

I know for a fact you didn't read that whole thread before replying as I suggested, so I won't bother addressing you again on this subject.

I was on the thread before, He said it's not targeted for Wii U but we know the Wii U can support it.

 

[StuBurns]

I was on the thread before, He said it's not targeted for Wii U but we know the Wii U can support it.

No, they said it could be run, the same as they said about UE3 on the Wii, which never happened.

Regardless, that post was my litmus test, and you failed, so I'm done.

 

[Reiko]

Erm, you do know there are CryEngine 3 games out right now? Including the console port of Crysis?


And the check is in the mail, trust me I'm a car salesman, my herpes is in remission, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Ummmm... Console port of Crysis was a (while impressive) watered down DX9 version.

Nothing to do with DX11 or DX10...

Read his post again.

 

[Majmun]

What a vague thing to say. Is he also taking the Wii U in consideration, or just Ps4/Nextbox?